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Poll Question: Do you think abortion is good or bad?   (9 votes)
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FreedomFighter13

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[color=fuchsia]I dont think abortion is right if woman want a choice then there choice was to have sex. Life can't just be a give and take game its something we have and hold special. If woman make the choice to have sex than they should be ready to take care of a baby wheather there pregnent. Abortion is still wrong even if you have been raped it is not an excuse to go and have a abortion you can always give it up for adoption. If it is a life and death situation on having the baby because of to much pain you can always have medcine to where you can't feel anything. If you don't want a baby than keep your legs shut and your fly closed.!!! Kat


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None of you can anger me now, I'm in love and happy as a clam!
 


Posts: 34 | Posted: 12:18 PM on November 16, 2002 | IP
Exxoss

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Please remember that some  people like sex alot, and condoms only have a 97% chance of working, not 100%, so that 3% might not want to go through the pain and anquish of having a baby, you BIAS CHRISTIAN!!!


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I am Exxoss, come to save you all from your impending doom!!!!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

-Exxoss
 


Posts: 438 | Posted: 12:55 PM on November 17, 2002 | IP
thistownwilleatu

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Who doesn't like sex a lot?  And apparently you need reminding that condoms arent the only contraceptive out there, you BIASED WICCAN.  Everyone is biased, not much of an argument there, doesn't hold much weight.


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"The greatest evil is not done in those sordid dens of evil that Dickens loved to paint ... but is conceived and ordered (moved, seconded, carried and minuted) in clear, carpeted, warmed, well-lighted offices, by quiet men with white collars and cut fingernails and smooth-shaven cheeks who do not need to raise their voices." - Thomas Merton

"I thank my God for every remembrance of you." - Paul
 


Posts: 341 | Posted: 6:52 PM on November 17, 2002 | IP
Exxoss

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Yeah, but you havent heard her other posts...shes REALLY biased, and does no real research for debates;only uses opinion and the bible.  Sure, the bibles kinda right, but not all the qwway.

Me, i dont add my biasses to debates at all.  I just point out those who do add their bias :-)

Also, most contraceptives that are affordable (condom, female condom) are not 100% effective.  And some are even less effective, just easier to use; Female mechanic IUD - 93% effective.


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I am Exxoss, come to save you all from your impending doom!!!!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

-Exxoss
 


Posts: 438 | Posted: 08:49 AM on November 18, 2002 | IP
debategirl88

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Things like the Bible can not be kind of right and kind of wrong. In this case it is ALL RIGHT. The reason it cant be partly right and wrong is because it clarifies itself through the whole book.  You would know that if you read it or even understood it.






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A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned - this is the sum of good government.
-Thomas Jefferson
 


Posts: 157 | Posted: 1:30 PM on December 24, 2002 | IP
fallingupwards84

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the Bible is one of those books that is either right or wrong. it all depends on what you believe. truth is not relative, it is absolute


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 12:36 AM on December 26, 2002 | IP
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 A child is a beautiful creation, and each child is worth as much as you or I. Anyone who has an abortion is proving that they are so selfish they will kill for their pleasure.  This is a sick and unjust act; to slaughter the innocent for the crime of the perverse.  Jesus, come save us!
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 3:26 PM on December 27, 2002 | IP
ss20man

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I have to agree with the second post, i like to drink alott, and sometime (about 3%) i hit people when i drive home (who want to wait for a cab).
 


Posts: 5 | Posted: 5:54 PM on November 9, 2004 | IP
Cre8ivE

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Anyone who believes that Condoms (of any stripe) have that high a success rate must be having sex in a lab under supervision.  From field tests - heh - latex has a failure rate of around 50% if used properly (suit up B4 heading out...) and considerably less if used "as you remember to"...

Regarding abortion, I used to be a believer in 'life begins at the first (separate) breath'...that "Breath of Life" kinda thing from the Bible.  Having been married for over 10 years, and gone through the gamut of miscarriages, "spontaneous abortions" (similar yet different), an actual D&C, home delivery (I caught 3), and a C-section (our fourth) I can only say that my appreciation for the wonders a child brings have colored my opinion.

I would say, IMHO, that if there are no mitigating factors (hazard to maternal life, ectopic, rape - as compared to merely unwanted) I would have to come out against abortion.  

If you CHOSE to engage in the act, you CHOSE to accept the responsibilities associated with it.  If you 'accidentally' (?!) got pregnant, suck it up - put in the ten months (9 according to schools, nearer to 10 according to MD calculations...) an then put the child up for adoption if you have to.  But under whose authority does a mother-to-be have the right to abrogate her responsibilities for the sake of conveinence??  Do we excuse the murderer because he was born with violent tendancies?  Or do we excuse a drunk driver from injuring their own children in an accident, because thy CHOSE to drive under the influence?  

As a society we even find it difficult to allow an individual to avoid responsibility if they ACCIDENTALLY kill someone, if they KNOWINGLY engaged in an act that would, to any reasonable individual (not just adults), result in the POSSIBILTY of injury or death of another person... how is abortion any less than that?
 


Posts: 4 | Posted: 3:18 PM on November 18, 2004 | IP
JJ

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Quote from Cre8ivE at 3:18 PM on November 18, 2004 :
latex has a failure rate of around 50% if used properly (suit up B4 heading out...) and considerably less if used "as you remember to"...


Source?

Quote from Cre8ivE at 3:18 PM on November 18, 2004 :  I would say, IMHO, that if there are no mitigating factors (hazard to maternal life, ectopic, rape - as compared to merely unwanted) I would have to come out against abortion.  


So a fetus is a baby and abortion is wrong - unless the father was a rapist. How do you rationalise that to yourself?

Quote from Cre8ivE at 3:18 PM on November 18, 2004 :If you CHOSE to engage in the act, you CHOSE to accept the responsibilities associated with it.  


And abortion is responsible.

Quote from Cre8ivE at 3:18 PM on November 18, 2004 :If you 'accidentally' (?!) got pregnant, suck it up - put in the ten months (9 according to schools, nearer to 10 according to MD calculations...) an then put the child up for adoption if you have to.  


Which you're presuming is always an option, which it just isn't. What kind of home will the kid whose mother has been forced to "suck it up" have?

 
Quote from Cre8ivE at 3:18 PM on November 18, 2004 :But under whose authority does a mother-to-be have the right to abrogate her responsibilities for the sake of conveinence??


And under whose authority to you force your own personal opinion on others? I always find it fascinating how only pro-lifers call pregnancy and motherhood an "inconvenience" - everyone else realises they are incredibly difficult tasks.

I find it inconvenient to donate blood which unlike abortion, causes the death of somebody who is without a doubt a person. I could do this quickly (unlike pregnancy) painlessly (unlike pregnancy), with few short term effects (unlike pregnancy) and no long term effects (unlike pregnancy). What right do I have to cause somebodys death for inconvenience?

 
Quote from Cre8ivE at 3:18 PM on November 18, 2004 :Do we excuse the murderer because he was born with violent tendancies?  Or do we excuse a drunk driver from injuring their own children in an accident, because thy CHOSE to drive under the influence?


How interesting that you equate sex with criminal acts. Pregnancy is not a punishment for sex you know.


(Edited by JJ 11/24/2004 at 5:17 PM).


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Womens rights are just that: rights.
 


Posts: 21 | Posted: 09:39 AM on November 24, 2004 | IP
Re-DefeatBush04

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Quote from Guest at 3:26 PM on December 27, 2002 :
 A child is a beautiful creation, and each child is worth as much as you or I. Anyone who has an abortion is proving that they are so selfish they will kill for their pleasure.  This is a sick and unjust act; to slaughter the innocent for the crime of the perverse.  Jesus, come save us!


And i suppose you think that a person who was raped gets pleasure out of aborting a fetus that they did not even choose to create. You are the kind of Christian that gives us bad names.



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*How many more will die for your mistake Bush, how many more?*<br><br>"Love is not blind. It sees all, yet loves it just the same."
 


Posts: 13 | Posted: 3:53 PM on December 21, 2004 | IP
Sol

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Quote from Exxoss at 12:55 PM on November 17, 2002 :
...3% might not want to go through the pain and anquish of having a baby...


Maybe those three percent should quit being so selfish and accept responsibility for their actions.
 


Posts: 60 | Posted: 04:57 AM on January 9, 2005 | IP
got_dooie

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I find it inconvenient to donate blood which unlike abortion, causes the death of somebody who is without a doubt a person. I could do this quickly (unlike pregnancy) painlessly (unlike pregnancy), with few short term effects (unlike pregnancy) and no long term effects (unlike pregnancy). What right do I have to cause somebodys death for inconvenience?


False Dilemma.  You are not the only person whose blood could be used to save lifes.  Therefore to compare not giving blood to save a life as to abortion is for you to make a leap that is immeasurable.  Face it you made a dumb statement and got called on it.

--dooie

(Edited by got_dooie 1/21/2005 at 10:39 AM).


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I always live in the past, the present is not not, the future is not yet, therfore only the past.
 


Posts: 84 | Posted: 10:38 AM on January 21, 2005 | IP
K8

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i simply CANNOT understand how people are willing to deny a woman the right to have an abortion. Yes, i believe abortion is killing a human being, but...guess what? I'm pro-abortion (i'm not going to sugar-coat it and say 'pro-choice' - though i am).

NO ONE has the right to FORCE a woman to have a child. Women are, biologically, historically and socially, the child-bearers and the child-carers. Society puts all the responsibility of caring and making choices for a child once it is born on the mother, yet then wants to deny her the right to CHOOSE whether she wants to be a mother in the first place.

And don't you dare try to tell me that a woman should simply "suck it up" if she were to get pregnant. By attempting to force women to have children, you are treating us as no more than reproductive machines - no dreams, no vaues, no goals...no life in general.

Yes, the unborn child has rights - but so does the mother. Somewhere along the line, one has to outweigh the other. I'm sorry, but that's how it is.hammingaround@hotmail.com
 


Posts: 292 | Posted: 09:32 AM on April 15, 2005 | IP
got_dooie

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i simply CANNOT understand how people are willing to deny a woman the right to have an abortion. Yes, i believe abortion is killing a human being, but...guess what? I'm pro-abortion (i'm not going to sugar-coat it and say 'pro-choice' - though i am)


Think about it for a second.

the syllogism goes like this

Premise 1. Killing an innocent human being, according to our law, is murder

Premise 2. Abortion is killing an innocent human being (you've acknowledge that).

Conclusion: Therefore Abortion is murder.  Therefore wrong!

Truths are truths whether you acknowledge them to be or not.  2 + 2 is 4 whether you acknowledge it or not.  Therefore Murder is wrong whether you think it is or not.  Murder is not justified under ANY circumstance.


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I always live in the past, the present is not not, the future is not yet, therfore only the past.
 


Posts: 84 | Posted: 12:10 PM on April 15, 2005 | IP
Peter87

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Ah, but abortion isn't murder, also even if it is classes as being murder, I supose we could use the double effect law. I don't know if it exists in america or australia, but in britain, if I remember rightly it is a form of legal euthanasia. In thats if someone is suffering from a terminal illness and is suffering greatly from it, they may be given exetensive pain killers for example(with their persmission) that will ease their suffering however it will eventualy cause them to die sooner. Therefor we could say that in reduceing ther mothers suffering we are stopping a POTENTIAL life.


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Why should we bow to the will of anyone? Especialy a man who our country but another voted for?
 


Posts: 301 | Posted: 8:16 PM on April 15, 2005 | IP
got_dooie

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Ah, but abortion isn't murder, also even if it is classes as being murder, I supose we could use the double effect law. I don't know if it exists in america or australia, but in britain, if I remember rightly it is a form of legal euthanasia. In thats if someone is suffering from a terminal illness and is suffering greatly from it, they may be given exetensive pain killers for example(with their persmission) that will ease their suffering however it will eventualy cause them to die sooner. Therefor we could say that in reduceing ther mothers suffering we are stopping a POTENTIAL life.


double effect-One action has two consequences (effects).  The one consequence is intended and is all good, yet the second consequence inevitably is bad and comes with the first.

Abortion by its very nature is murder.  Using the double effect law would not classify a certain action as abortion anymore.  A most common situation is when the woman has cancer in the uterus.  Here, the womb is removed with the intention of SAVING BOTH MOTHER AND CHILD.  If, however, the child happens to die during the process, it would not be murder because the INTENTION WAS NOT TO KILL.


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I always live in the past, the present is not not, the future is not yet, therfore only the past.
 


Posts: 84 | Posted: 11:15 PM on April 18, 2005 | IP
Peter87

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For a start, we are not talking about PBA, and thus a fetus has the potential to become a human and isn't actualy a human. In the same way a pile of bricks is potentialy a building, however if you were to remove the brinks and thus remove the potential of having a building, you could say that you knocked down a building.


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Why should we bow to the will of anyone? Especialy a man who our country but another voted for?
 


Posts: 301 | Posted: 10:11 AM on April 19, 2005 | IP
got_dooie

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For a start, we are not talking about PBA, and thus a fetus has the potential to become a human and isn't actualy a human. In the same way a pile of bricks is potentialy a building, however if you were to remove the brinks and thus remove the potential of having a building, you could say that you knocked down a building.

You have stated this argument before and I have stated my rebuttal...Please don't restate arguments once they've been answered, but come up with new ones.


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I always live in the past, the present is not not, the future is not yet, therfore only the past.
 


Posts: 84 | Posted: 10:59 AM on April 19, 2005 | IP
Peter87

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Actualy I havn't posted it before, on this forum at least, I hadn't realised that someone else has.


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Why should we bow to the will of anyone? Especialy a man who our country but another voted for?
 


Posts: 301 | Posted: 2:52 PM on April 19, 2005 | IP
got_dooie

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Actualy I havn't posted it before, on this forum at least, I hadn't realised that somone else has.


I apologize for accusing you of this, and did find that it was not you that had this debate with me over this argument.  However, it is helpful to read other posts on this forum before posting because it is not useful to restate arguments that have already been refutted.  It is just a waste of both of our time.  

The debate over it is here link to topic


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I always live in the past, the present is not not, the future is not yet, therfore only the past.
 


Posts: 84 | Posted: 5:02 PM on April 19, 2005 | IP
Peter87

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Yeah I've read most of the topics, but not in a while if they have been out dated


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Why should we bow to the will of anyone? Especialy a man who our country but another voted for?
 


Posts: 301 | Posted: 7:05 PM on April 19, 2005 | IP
Cush

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Quote from K8 at 09:32 AM on April 15, 2005 :
i simply CANNOT understand how people are willing to deny a woman the right to have an abortion. Yes, i believe abortion is killing a human being, but...guess what? I'm pro-abortion (i'm not going to sugar-coat it and say 'pro-choice' - though i am).

...

Yes, the unborn child has rights - but so does the mother. Somewhere along the line, one has to outweigh the other. I'm sorry, but that's how it is.



What rights does a fetus have?

I can't think of one.

What rights does the father of the fetus have?

I can't think of one.

Until the moment of birth, only the mother has rights. Only.



 


Posts: 13 | Posted: 11:42 AM on July 21, 2005 | IP
got_dooie

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Until the moment of birth, only the mother has rights. Only.


And you base this argument on the premise/s of?


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I always live in the past, the present is not not, the future is not yet, therfore only the past.
 


Posts: 84 | Posted: 10:26 PM on July 24, 2005 | IP
yay_kaitlyn

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If you are raped, yes you can give up the baby for adoption, but it's hard to give up your own flesh and blood. And if you get raped, do you actually think that the woman is going to want to have to carry a baby for 9 months that will be a constant reminder of what she had gone through?
And if it's a life and death situation or a situation where the mother is in pain, I don't think a mother is going to want to drug not only herself, but her child for 9 months. That could create huge problems for the baby in the future. If there would be a high chance the baby was going to die, I' sure a mother is not going to want to carry a baby that she knows is going to die.

I'm not a baby killer, and I find no pleasure in killing human beings. Abortion isn't a happy thing, but you can't take away a mothers rights.


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Kaitlyn
 


Posts: 1 | Posted: 9:21 PM on July 27, 2005 | IP
goshman

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Quote from K8 at 09:32 AM on April 15, 2005 :

NO ONE has the right to FORCE a woman to have a child. Women are, biologically, historically and socially, the child-bearers and the child-carers. Society puts all the responsibility of caring and making choices for a child once it is born on the mother, yet then wants to deny her the right to CHOOSE whether she wants to be a mother in the first place.
is.hammingaround@hotmail.com



NOONE is trying to force women to have abortions! they are only stating that if you dont wnat a child the best way to keep from having one is not contraception or abortion but keeping your pants on!


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Man put up a real argument!
 


Posts: 1 | Posted: 04:18 AM on August 10, 2006 | IP
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NOONE is trying to force women to have abortions! they are only stating that if you dont wnat a child the best way to keep from having one is not contraception or abortion but keeping your pants on!


What about a baby conceived as a result of incest or rape?  Do you think that women should be forced to carry to term babies conceived as a result of a rape?
 


Posts: 162 | Posted: 2:35 PM on August 10, 2006 | IP
TRIGGER

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I think may of you either don't know or don't care. You all talk about the mothers right's but you don't try to under stand what a fetius is it is not a part of the mother it is a seprate entity with it's own beating heart, it's own central nurvis system, curcitory system(sorry if my spelling is off). The heart of a fetuis starts beating in as little as 6 weeks after conception and you can't call it a life? If you didn't already know the fetius can even have totaly diffrent blood type than the mother. Since all this is true how can any one person be allowed make a death sentence on anothers innocent life? Another thing more than 90% of abortions are berth control not from rape or inncest If you can't understand that it is a life than may be you should keep your pant's on.


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Posts: 127 | Posted: 9:30 PM on August 15, 2006 | IP
kill3rqu3en

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question - when does life began?

a pope (not sure which one) once said that life began at the first movement. others have said conception, and some at first breath. the real agrument is when does the life of a fetus began. right now it is legal in some states to get an abortion within the first six weeks of pregnancy, when the fetus is an inch long without an human features or actual gender.

whether it's right or wrong is an endless argument. whether it's murder or not can only be determinded by when life begans, which is where the law is to taken into account.

i'm pro-choice, but i would never get an abortion for myself. let people choose depending on the situations in their life. no one wants a baby born into an abusive home from a teenage mother whose father rapes her. situations like that must be taken into account whenever the agrument about abortion arises. sometimes the most human thing is to have an abortion.




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“Buy the ticket, take the ride.” - Hunter S. Thompson
 


Posts: 5 | Posted: 12:54 AM on August 16, 2006 | IP
EMyers

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But the point is, rape accounts for about, what?, 1 percent of abortions.  If exceptions must be accounted for, then they must be exceptions.  The "rule" shouldn't allow for abortion as birth control.  Keeping your buick in the garage should take care of that.  People who can't make a legitimate argument on the facts (and I'm not referring to your post) always like to pull out minority happenings and yell "but what about?".  They use the exception as a reason to change the rule.  Self-defense is allowed, but you don't see  anyone trying to overturn the law against murder.  Therefore, pulling out rape or incest should not be a reason to legalize abortion.


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 08:28 AM on August 16, 2006 | IP
42ndEndOfTheWorld

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I find those who support abortion only in case of rape and incest far more ridiculous bunch that those that are against all forms of abortion. Those who are completely against abortion are, at least, faithful to their deranged resoning. I mean, would you kill a 1 year old baby if that baby is a product of rape? Of course not.  As soon as you say something like: well abortion should be OK in case of rape, you ADMIT that fetus is not really a person, but more something like a convenient way to put someone on guilt trip.

(Edited by 42ndEndOfTheWorld 8/16/2006 at 2:11 PM).


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I teach you the overman. Man is something that must be overcome. What have you done to overcome him?(...)Let your will say: the overman shall be the meaning of the earth!I beseech you, my brothers, remain faithful to the earth, and do not believe those who speak to you of otherworldly hopes! Poison-mixers are they, whether they know it or not.Despisers of life are they, decaying and poisoned themselves, of whom the earth is weary: so let them go. Nietzsche, Thus spoke Zarathustra
 


Posts: 6 | Posted: 2:05 PM on August 16, 2006 | IP
fredguff

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The reason I interject rape and incest into the discussion is to get a clarification on whether certain posters, who favor of criminalizing abortion, also believe in allowing exceptions when the mother's physical well-being is not affected. Most of the posters who favor criminalizing abortion, who I have encountered, use the argument that a zygote or embryo or fetus is a living human and by this virtue is warranted all the protections afforded law-abiding, air-breathing humans under the law.  Thus, they conclude elective abortion is tantamount to murder. While I don't agree with the facts these posters use to reach their conclusions, I have no problem with the logic they use.  Where I see a problem is when some of the "abortion is murder" posters start making exceptions because of the method of conception. Murder is Murder isn't it? The innocent fetus had no choice in deciding the method of his/her conception. Frederick Douglass didn't choose to have his slave-owner father rape his mother.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not in favor of forcing rape victims to carry their fertilized eggs to term. I think it would be horrible to force something like that on a young teenager (or anybody for that matter). But I also think it is counter-productive to qualify abortions as murder only when they are a result of consensual sex. With all due respect, some people might reasonably conclude that the primary concerns of supporters of the exception lie not with saving fetuses from abortions but instead forcing people to carry unwanted babies  to term simply because they were concieved during consenual sex . I know this is probably not  the  intention but I am talking about perceptions, and I think its fair for me to question somebody's credibility on the "abortion is murder" argument when they categorize a zygote's viablility based on the method of conception.

At the end of the day, I find the shrill posturing on both sides of the abortion issue counter-productive.  Even if Roe is overturned abortions on demand will still be available in all of the blue states and quite a few of the red states. And despite attempts from both sides to simplify the discussion into "for or against arguments" I am savvy enough to understand that the abortion issue is far more complicated.  Utimately I feel that a woman should have the final say at least while the fetus is not viable.  But this does not mean that I am unaware that things are starting to get scary in Russia where I've read that they are not producing enough babies to sustain their population.  China is even worse.  With the one child rule, more couples are opting to have boys which is totally throwing off the balance of the sexes.  Of course this is the US so maybe my points are irrelevant, but what happens to all these chinese men when they can't get laid?  If they are like most of the guys I know they will get violent.

I've thought about implementing a system that pays women to carry their babies to term but I can think of many reasons why this wouldn't work. At any rate, I think that unless we as a society end the stigma that we attach to unwed pregnancies, many women will continue to choose to have their pregnancies terminated.  
 


Posts: 162 | Posted: 6:31 PM on August 16, 2006 | IP
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If you look at abortion for what it is, is an easy way to avoid responsability for one's actions. In stead of faceing your short commings you get a way to aviod responsability buy taking an inocent life. I find anyone repulsive who trys to blame either an inaniment object or another for his or her problems. If you are a human take the adult step and answer for your actions. It may be a tough road but you may be amazed at the joy a child give's. The unconditional love of a child will take your breath away. It is so easy to say it was the alchol or I couldn't help my self. You are sesposable for your life and what you make of it. If you are a real human you can look in the face of that innocent child concived from rape and only see their soul and the love that they bring.

(Edited by TRIGGER 8/17/2006 at 6:37 PM).

(Edited by TRIGGER 8/17/2006 at 7:56 PM).


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Posts: 127 | Posted: 6:26 PM on August 17, 2006 | IP
EMyers

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Hey!  This is America!  You can't make people accept responsibility for their own actions.  It's unconstitutional!  Plus, what are we going to do with all the out of work lawyers if we start allowing things like that?  Pretty soon you'll be telling me that children who get bad grades actually earn those grades instead of them being handed out by mean, abusive, bigotted teachers who simply want to see children fail!  The nerve!


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 7:41 PM on August 17, 2006 | IP
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So it is not really about saving unborn "children" and stuff, but about personal responsibility? When someone breaks a leg after falling from a tree, do you laugh at him and leave him to bleed to dead to became more responsible? Nope you call an ambulance. The fact remains, he did something stupid.
So should punishment for unsafe sex be a baby? Yes it is a dumb thing to do and all, but there is a procedure called abortion to undo the damage by destroying a fetus before he becomes a person.


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I teach you the overman. Man is something that must be overcome. What have you done to overcome him?(...)Let your will say: the overman shall be the meaning of the earth!I beseech you, my brothers, remain faithful to the earth, and do not believe those who speak to you of otherworldly hopes! Poison-mixers are they, whether they know it or not.Despisers of life are they, decaying and poisoned themselves, of whom the earth is weary: so let them go. Nietzsche, Thus spoke Zarathustra
 


Posts: 6 | Posted: 03:51 AM on August 18, 2006 | IP
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Quote from 42ndEndOfTheWorld at 03:51 AM on August 18, 2006 :
So it is not really about saving unborn "children" and stuff, but about personal responsibility? When someone breaks a leg after falling from a tree, do you laugh at him and leave him to bleed to dead to became more responsible? Nope you call an ambulance. The fact remains, he did something stupid.
So should punishment for unsafe sex be a baby? Yes it is a dumb thing to do and all, but there is a procedure called abortion to undo the damage by destroying a fetus before he becomes a person.


Do you actualy beleave what you say you talk about saving the life of someone who injures them selves in an accident and in the next breath you talk about taking a life to make someones life easier. I think you should rethink your position don't you? With your thinking ti is like an acholic that destroys his liver through years of drinking hye can just get a new liver from someone else but the doner isn't dead. Good for the drunk but someone else pays the price for his irrisposability.  




(Edited by TRIGGER 8/18/2006 at 6:14 PM).


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Posts: 127 | Posted: 6:04 PM on August 18, 2006 | IP
42ndEndOfTheWorld

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Look, if you had read my earlier posts you would have known that fetus is not a person and, therefore, its life is not important.
Therefore my analogy with personal injury is completely acceptable since in both cases we have only one person doing something irresponsible to herself.


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I teach you the overman. Man is something that must be overcome. What have you done to overcome him?(...)Let your will say: the overman shall be the meaning of the earth!I beseech you, my brothers, remain faithful to the earth, and do not believe those who speak to you of otherworldly hopes! Poison-mixers are they, whether they know it or not.Despisers of life are they, decaying and poisoned themselves, of whom the earth is weary: so let them go. Nietzsche, Thus spoke Zarathustra
 


Posts: 6 | Posted: 03:17 AM on August 19, 2006 | IP
EMyers

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I think there are a few million (maybe billion) mothers out there that would argue with you that the life of a fetus is not important.  How much is yours worth?  For all intents and purposes you are a mature fetus.  Can I kill you now?


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 1:11 PM on August 19, 2006 | IP
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A fetus is not aperson say's you... But does that make it any less of human???? Just because the chicken is still in the egg does it make it less of a chicken?? May be you shoud take your argument back to the drawing board... You can us all the techinal terms you wish but it is still human.


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Posts: 127 | Posted: 3:52 PM on August 19, 2006 | IP
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A fetus is not aperson say's you... But does that make it any less of human???? Just because the chicken is still in the egg does it make it less of a chicken?? May be you shoud take your argument back to the drawing board... You can us all the techinal terms you wish but it is still human.


Being human should have no bearing on whether or not an organism receives rights. At the time of an aborted fetus' death, it has no more a thinking capacity than people in persistent vegetative states. There are laws against animal cruelty because it's a well-known fact that dogs and cats, for example, know what is going on around them. With a fetus, that is not the case.

(Edited by EntwickelnCollin 8/20/2006 at 01:42 AM).


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http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/08/a_triumphant_beginning.php
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Posts: 729 | Posted: 01:41 AM on August 20, 2006 | IP
EMyers

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And you know this how?  A doctor told you?  A scientist told you?  You read it in a book?  Once upon a time they used to poke holes in the side of someone's head to get rid of headaches (although you have to admit, most people didn't complain of headaches back then).  Yes, that was a long time ago.  Yes, science and medicine have grown by leaps and bounds since then.  Yes, they are still wrong from time to time.  The only reason you are here to argue the point is because your parents didn't abort you.  Shouldn't every fetus have the same chance?  Or are you better than all the others?


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 08:23 AM on August 20, 2006 | IP
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Wheather it has the capacity to think or not or is or concious of it's suroundings is the criteria on wheather it sould live or die? Good idea I guess those who are in a vegitative state should be killed to... Hey lets do it as in abortions... chop it up to remove it with no anisteic.. sounds medivel to me how about you??? Seems to me to be more like an exicution.. You think...  


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Posts: 127 | Posted: 6:50 PM on August 20, 2006 | IP
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And you know this how?  A doctor told you?  A scientist told you?  You read it in a book?  Once upon a time they used to poke holes in the side of someone's head to get rid of headaches (although you have to admit, most people didn't complain of headaches back then).  Yes, that was a long time ago.  Yes, science and medicine have grown by leaps and bounds since then.  Yes, they are still wrong from time to time.  The only reason you are here to argue the point is because your parents didn't abort you.  Shouldn't every fetus have the same chance?  Or are you better than all the others?


Actually, in my case the only reason I am here is because my mother aborted a baby (due to a medical necessity) a couple months before I was conceived.  Abortion is a complicated issue and IMHO there are just too many variables involved to frame it as a "for or against" argument.  

IMHO, when you argue that it is the personal responsibilty of the individuals involved to carry babies to term, you are not helping to save fetuses (if that is your ultimate goal) regardless of the validity of your statement.  Of course if you are only concerned about scoring debate points  and are not bothered by the fact that your arguments might be polarizing people to be more vigorous in their stand against criminalizing abortion then my point is moot.

The fact is we live in a society that frowns upon women getting pregnant out of wedlock.  Furthermore,  abstinance for many is not a reasonable option.  According to some studies, 90 percent of Americans have sex before they are married.   Knowing this, I don't think pushing abstinance programs is really going to save fetuses.  From what I have read, Very few of the "Abstinance Only" programs are really working.  In one study done in Northern Kentucky, for example, a poll of 600 teens showed that 61 percent of the teens who had taken abstinence pledges broke them within a year.  A study of teenagers in Minnesota showed that after implementing an Abstinance Only program, the number of sexually active students actually increased from 5.8 to 12.4 percent over the course of a year.  Another study showed that in communities where a greater percentage of students took the abstinance pledge, there was a higher STD rate.  Of course I would be happy to present studies that demonstrated that "Abstinance Only" worked but I was unable find any.  

The bottom line Ed, is that I don't believe any reasonable person is saying that Abstinance is a bad thing.  What is bad is making contraceptives not readily accessible and keeping people in the dark regarding methods they can use to practice safe sex and avoid pregancies.  

Meehan, Mary.  “New Study Raises Questions About Abstinence Pledges.”  Lexington Herald-Leader 5 Nov. 2003

Marcotty, Josephine.  “State Sex Ed Not Working, Study Finds; Sexual Activity Increasing Despite Abstinence Emphasis.”  Star Tribune  (2004):  1A

Goldberg, Michelle.  “The White House is pouring money into programs that tell teens to just say no to sex.  Most experts say the programs don’t work – except to enrich the right.”  Salon. 24 Feb. 2004.

Findings.”  The Washington Post 10 March 2004: A12


 


Posts: 162 | Posted: 10:12 AM on August 21, 2006 | IP
EMyers

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abstinance for many is not a reasonable option

Huh?  Are you saying that we are rearing a generation of children who have not been taught the concept of personal responsibility?  Who have not the ability to CONTROL themselves?  "I don't know what happened.  I was just walking along and all of a sudden I found it stuck in somebody.  It's not my fault."  Please, you have either a very poor opinion of human beings or a very skewed concept of the term "reasonable".


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 5:44 PM on August 21, 2006 | IP
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Huh?  Are you saying that we are rearing a generation of children who have not been taught the concept of personal responsibility?  Who have not the ability to CONTROL themselves?  "I don't know what happened.  I was just walking along and all of a sudden I found it stuck in somebody.  It's not my fault."  Please, you have either a very poor opinion of human beings or a very skewed concept of the term "reasonable".


Ed,

Firstoff, I have no problem practicing abstinance.  And I personally do not want to take a chance at getting an STD or an unwanted baby by practicing unprotected sex  with somebody I don't know that well let alone love.  But that's me.  When I see statistics like 90% of Americans have sex before they are married and read article after article demonstrating the failure of the "abstinance only" programs, I have to consider the possiblity that I might be in the minority.  

Thus, if my goal is to end abortions along with teen pregancies and the spread of STDs,  I think that it is reasonable for me to question the value of programs that preach abstinance only before marriage.  With this in mind,  I believe that I have  to be open to the possibility that the more pragmatic approach to accoplishing my goal  is putting greater emphasis on ways teenagers can prevent pregancies and the spread of STDs.  Again I am looking for results as opposed to moral standings.  Is it a perfect solution?  Of course not; but my morals don't mean squat if nobody gives a rat's ass about them.  

Don't get me wrong I don't have a problem with your attitude about personal responsibility and I have no problem with you refusing to budge on your morals.  But I think you are kidding yourself if you think such actions are going to cause teenagers to stop having sex.   I don't think criminalizing abortion in selected red states will work either.   Sure it would be nice if only fit parents had babies when they were ready.  It would also be nice if everybody's favorite team won the Super Bowl this year...But it's not going to happen...Sometimes being real gets the job done more effectively than being holy...That's just the way it is.
 


Posts: 162 | Posted: 7:45 PM on August 21, 2006 | IP
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You don't seam to understand the object of the exercize is to stop the slauter of the unborn. Teen pregnencies will probably drop with out abortion since there will no longer be an easy out for your irresposabile behavior. If you know that you can get out of a fix by just going down the street and paying a few hundred bucks you are more likely play a little looser. If on the other hand you know that you may be paying for a child for the next 18 years it might make you think about getting that protection or keeping it in your pants.


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Posts: 127 | Posted: 8:39 PM on August 21, 2006 | IP
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You don't seam to understand the object of the exercize is to stop the slauter of the unborn. Teen pregnencies will probably drop with out abortion since there will no longer be an easy out for your irresposabile behavior. If you know that you can get out of a fix by just going down the street and paying a few hundred bucks you are more likely play a little looser. If on the other hand you know that you may be paying for a child for the next 18 years it might make you think about getting that protection or keeping it in your pants.


How are you going to stop it bro?!!!

By overturning Roe Vs. Wade?   Sorry that will only outlaw abortion in some of the red states.  All blue states and quite a few red states will still allow abortions in the first tri-mester.   Some of the liberal blue states will continue to allow abortions on demand and I wouldn't be surprised if they made it easier for out-of-staters to come in get their abortion and spend some sales tax.  And if Roe is overturned, I doubt any of these proposed laws that criminalize crossing state lines for abortions will hold up Constitutionally.  


An ammendment?  Please...We aren't talking about Gay marriage.  California and New York will secede before an ammendment gets the votes needed for passage.

And if that's not enough, the last partial birth law got shyt-canned by a red state judge who was appointed by Bush Sr.  None of the USSC members including Antonin Scalia voted to overturn the decision on appeal.

You can talk about murder and personal  responsiblity all you want.  But if you think you are saving fetuses and changing the minds that need to be changed, I got a bridge in Brooklyn that I can sell you on the cheap!!!

 


Posts: 162 | Posted: 10:28 PM on August 21, 2006 | IP
EMyers

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You're right.  The problem is not the teenagers (at least, not the underlying problem).  The problem is the older parents.  The ones who have coddled and ignored a generation of children.  Ones who have either tried to be their friends or have pretended they don't exist.  We can't expect teenagers to be responsible because the adults aren't.  We live in a "victim" society.  Burn yourself on hot coffee?  Sue someone.  Don't, for one minute, accept any responsibility.  I find my children rise to the level of what I expect of them.  Problem is, most parents haven't expected anything of their children for years.  I'm not saying that the teenager that can't keep their pants on should be absolved of responsibility for their OWN decision.  I'm just saying that young people are usually a byproduct of the people that reared them (no irony intended).  If you're a parent, ask yourself "do I have any clue what my children are doing?"  They are your kids.  They have no privacy while they live in your house.  They don't need their own cell phone.  They don't need their own internet connection or TV or phone line.  They need parents.  If you have a problem with that, maybe you should've kept your pants on.  Then they wouldn't be interrupting your life.  Claim all that stats you want.  Abstinence is the only 100% guarantee against pregnancy, AIDs, Syphillus and other diseases that include a visit to the doctor and a pipe cleaner.  If you aren't willing to stay abstinent, don't expect some doctor with a wire hanger and a vaccuum cleaner to bail you out.


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 12:07 AM on August 22, 2006 | IP
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They don't need their own cell phone.


Actually the cell phone gives parents more control.   With GPS becoming cheap and reliable, I can see the pendulum swinging back even further.   When you call your kid at 11:00PM he/she's going to answer if he/she doesn't want the phone turned off.  

"Oh you have a flat tire and you're going to be late?"   "No problem I have you on GPS, I'll be right there."
 


Posts: 162 | Posted: 12:26 AM on August 22, 2006 | IP
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Claim all that stats you want.  Abstinence is the only 100% guarantee against pregnancy, AIDs, Syphillus and other diseases that include a visit to the doctor and a pipe cleaner.  If you aren't willing to stay abstinent, don't expect some doctor with a wire hanger and a vaccuum cleaner to bail you out.


Ed,

It's not about claiming stats it's about solving a problem.   If you think the problem can be solved by "abstinance only" programs and criminalizing abortions in some of the red states then we will have to agree to disagree.
 


Posts: 162 | Posted: 12:41 AM on August 22, 2006 | IP
    
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