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     Morning After Pill = Murder
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42ndEndOfTheWorld

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So, if it's not human, and it's not her property (i.e. it doesn't belong to her) how can it be a crime?

I guess that you are referring to a fetus that is older than 6 months. Well, for a start, let me quote Carl Sagan:
Despite many claims to the contrary, life does not begin at conception: It is an unbroken chain that stretches back nearly to the origin of the Earth

So, all in all, during pregnancy, a fetus is slowly developing into a new human being. In the beginning fetus is a part of woman's body, (50% of its DNA is different from mothers, but similar can be said for cancer cells) and only value that it has is a value his owner gives to him. This part of the body slowly separates from a main body and forms his own consciousness. In the end we have two lives. Now, it is true that the law not yet has a way to define something that is not yet a human but no longer a part of someone's body, but laws can be changed.

(Edited by 42ndEndOfTheWorld 7/23/2006 at 8:29 PM).


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I teach you the overman. Man is something that must be overcome. What have you done to overcome him?(...)Let your will say: the overman shall be the meaning of the earth!I beseech you, my brothers, remain faithful to the earth, and do not believe those who speak to you of otherworldly hopes! Poison-mixers are they, whether they know it or not.Despisers of life are they, decaying and poisoned themselves, of whom the earth is weary: so let them go. Nietzsche, Thus spoke Zarathustra
 


Posts: 6 | Posted: 4:51 PM on July 23, 2006 | IP
Sabella

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Quote from EMyers at 6:10 PM on May 7, 2006 :
Actually, you are not "preventing" the woman from getting pregnant as she already is.  The child is already conceived.  That's why its called the Morning AFTER pill.


No, you ARE preventing pregnancy. Just because someone has had unprotected, or protected sex for that matter, does not mean the child has been concieved. Heck, the chances of getting pregnant without using any birth control are very low to begin with. So no, the morning pill does not necessarily kill any life at all, concidering the chances there is a life are very low. The morning after pill can only be used roughly 72 hours after having sex. In this time, you can't see whether you are or are not pregnant.

So in short, I don't believe it is murder as there is really no way to tell whether or not a life/potential life was actually ended.


 


Posts: 3 | Posted: 5:51 PM on October 27, 2006 | IP
EMyers

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That's like saying if I drop a barbell off the top of a building and don't look to see what happened then I did nothing wrong.  I may have killed someone, but then I again I might not have.  Whatever you do, do NOT tell me that I can't drop the barbell off a building if I want to.  It's my barbell and I can do with it what I want regardless of whether I MIGHT kill someone or not.


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 7:14 PM on October 27, 2006 | IP
TRIGGER

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Quote from 42ndEndOfTheWorld at 4:51 PM on July 23, 2006 :
So, if it's not human, and it's not her property (i.e. it doesn't belong to her) how can it be a crime?

I guess that you are referring to a fetus that is older than 6 months. Well, for a start, let me quote Carl Sagan:
Despite many claims to the contrary, life does not begin at conception: It is an unbroken chain that stretches back nearly to the origin of the Earth

So, all in all, during pregnancy, a fetus is slowly developing into a new human being. In the beginning fetus is a part of woman's body, (50% of its DNA is different from mothers, but similar can be said for cancer cells) and only value that it has is a value his owner gives to him. This part of the body slowly separates from a main body and forms his own consciousness. In the end we have two lives. Now, it is true that the law not yet has a way to define something that is not yet a human but no longer a part of someone's body, but laws can be changed.

(Edited by 42ndEndOfTheWorld 7/23/2006 at 8:29 PM).


Sorry you got it wrong what sagen said that life begins at it's origin. So it is all life, the sperm, the egg, the zygot, it is all life. As far as the fetius goes it is never a part of the womans body... As you may not know the fetius can be so diffrent in its genitic makeup to be actualy dangerious to the mothers health. This is why the mother and fetius are separated by the placenta which is a barrier between them to protect them from each other. The mother and child don't share anything except nurishment (oxigen, etc.)  




(Edited by TRIGGER 10/28/2006 at 10:00 AM).

(Edited by TRIGGER 10/28/2006 at 10:01 AM).


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MACHINE GUNS? go to WWW.hansonshoot.com
 


Posts: 127 | Posted: 09:59 AM on October 28, 2006 | IP
fredguff

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This is why the mother and fetius are separated by the placenta which is a barrier between them to protect them from each other. The mother and child don't share anything except nurishment (oxigen, etc.)


You bring up an interesting point regarding the placenta.  Since a zygote conceived in a  petri dish has no chance of becoming a human without a placenta or a uterous, would you agree that the "potential human" definition is fallacious if used as an argument against stemcell research  involving artifically conceived zygotes?
 


Posts: 162 | Posted: 12:10 PM on October 29, 2006 | IP
TRIGGER

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Yes, but I'm not sure, but dosn't the research depend on harvisting the cells and I do beleave you need somthing that has started to develope to be able to harvist those cells. And if I'm not mistaken I think you would have to incubate the zygote for at least a month or two to be able to do that??? So dosn't that mean that the zygot would need a placenta to do this?

(Edited by TRIGGER 10/30/2006 at 6:02 PM).


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MACHINE GUNS? go to WWW.hansonshoot.com
 


Posts: 127 | Posted: 6:00 PM on October 30, 2006 | IP
Aaron

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Okay, here it goes:

First, the morning after pill is not in any way an abortion. It's proven that it prevents ovulation, resulting in NO FERTILIZED EGG WHATSOEVER. In other words, it's a birth control pill. You just take it AFTER sex instead of before.

If you have a problem with birth control, then you must feel that protected sex is murder as well, since the sex SHOULD technically result in a pregnancy. And since that's murder, wouldn't abstinance be murder too, since the sex that you would otherwise have ought to result in a pregancy? Basically, every time a man thinks about having sex but doesn't, he commits murder of the unconcieved child, thus meaning that I commit murder about every 7 minutes.

To those who don't mind birth control, but do disapprove of abortion, you guys should be ONE HUNDRED PERCENT behind the morning after pill, because it can prevent 99% of abortions from happening at all.

But most pro-lifers don't really care about the unborn child. You've been indoctrinated from a young age into being anti-choice because you guys aren't REALLY about saving lives, you're about telling people what to do. You guys can't stand the concept of sex without consequences, because your bible says sex should only be between to married people yadda yadda. But guess what? Some of us don't believe in your bible.

Any arguement can be made for when life begins (as long as it's after conception), and though I feel it begins with lucid conciousness, I respect those who disagree. However, the morning after pill kills nothing. It just makes the sex free (or mostly so) from consequence.

That said, PLEASE use a condom. Don't get STDs, and remember that it's not 100% effective. Nothing is.
 


Posts: 1 | Posted: 03:16 AM on November 3, 2006 | IP
EMyers

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Abstinence isn't 100% effective?  That's news.


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 8:05 PM on November 3, 2006 | IP
jenns

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sooo mother and foetus dont share anything except nourishment??

oh is that all?

in that case lets just round up all the women and inpregnate them (as brutally as possible, after all, they're just a carrier of something much more important).

How can you fight to "save the life" of unborn female children when you treat them like this.

You love us when we're all cute and basically nothing, but when we're actual living breathing humans you don't want to know.

How ironic.

"A woman iis for life, not just for Christmas...." hahaa. My god this is ridiculous.

And all this if I drop something off of a building business.... the difference there being that it doesn't affect YOU.

Slightly different than being forced into unwanted labour don't you think? Which by the way, must be much much more pyschologically damaging than having an abortion. And shouldn't women be able to make up their own mind anyway?

Thats the thing that makes me angry... women are obviously too stupid to decide what's best for them so we need other people to do it for us.

Sorry I'll stop arguing and go back to the kitchen now.


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theres no fun in fundamentalism
 


Posts: 64 | Posted: 2:33 PM on November 5, 2006 | IP
EMyers

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I think you have it backwards.  Anti-abortionists think women are actually smart enough to know where babies come from.  It's the pro-abortionists who think women are too stupid to be held responsible for their decisions.


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 7:17 PM on November 5, 2006 | IP
jenns

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ummm... WHAT??

if abortion was illegal isn't that deciding for a woman what she does with her body??

And don't give me all of this it's a seperate being business because whatever you believe a woman does have to go through some sort of physical process that WILL affect her if she is pregnant, correct? And if abortion didn't exist she would only be left with one choice (past actual conception itself), correct?

Therefore, it is assumed that women simply cannot be trusted.

"...women are too stupid to be held responsible" - any idiot can be held responsible, it is when we make choices that actual intellect comes into play.


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theres no fun in fundamentalism
 


Posts: 64 | Posted: 05:55 AM on November 6, 2006 | IP
EMyers

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No, abortion being illegal is deciding whether a woman can kill another human being because (while she thought she was mature enough to drop her panties) she doesn't want to be inconvenienced by the consequences of her decision.


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 08:09 AM on November 6, 2006 | IP
choice

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Please do not use emotive language to further your weak arguements EMeyers, there is no 'killing' in abortion, and only one human being.

And abortion being illegal IS deciding what a woman does with her body.
You are forcing her to remain pregnant against her will. If that isn't telling her what she can and cannot do with her own body I don't know what is.

And once again I shall make this point to you. Consent to sex=/=consent to pregnancy.

Also, if sex is just for reproduction (which is what you are suggesting is it not? That sex should only occur between adults wanting children?), why do humans still exhibit sexual desire in cases where no conception could possibly take place? Why don’t we mate like, say, dogs, wherein females go into estrus and mate only during that time? If sex is only for reproduction, it has an AMAZING failure rate.

"The World Health Organization estimates that 100 million couples engage in sexual intercourse on an average day, which is only 3.3% of the world's six billion humans. This pitifully low amount of love-making results in around 910,000 pregnancies, thanks in part to contraceptives and sterility. For a variety of reasons, 55% of these zygotes don't make it through fetushood to live birth. According to a current U.S. Census Bureau estimate, 359,000 do make it daily.

So, less than 0.4% of each day's heterosexual trysts result in the creation of new humans -- a statistically insignificant correlation for proving causation. In fact, it rounds to zero."

As for being incovenienced by the consequences of her actions... I get in a car, I know I may have a car accident, does that mean that when I crash I should be denied medical assistance?

(Edited by choice 6/9/2007 at 11:45 AM).


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The RIGHT to Choose.
 


Posts: 14 | Posted: 11:41 AM on June 9, 2007 | IP
EMyers

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Who's EMeyers?  Hmm.  I'll try and answer for him....

Choosing to engage in a reproductive activity and then screaming I didn't want to reproduce makes you sound like a blooming idiot.  If you are not one, think about what you just said.  Seriously.


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 12:18 PM on June 9, 2007 | IP
choice

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Well excuse me for adding an E into your name, damn.
Pfft.

Reproductive activity? Did you even read what I read? Will you not even consider for one moment that Sex is NOT all about reproduction? Or are you that blinkered and narrow-minded that you are unable to see that?

And nowhere in that last post did I scream 'I didn't want to reproduce' so suggesting such makes you seem like the blooming idiot.

Are you simply refusing to answer the questions from my previous post out of sheer ignorance or are you unable to come up with a satisfactory answer as to why, if sex is just for reproduction so many people have sexual desire where no possible conception could take place?

Also..if sex is purely a reproductive act explain to me the function of a clitoris? Which is widely acclaimed to be purely for sexual pleasure.


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The RIGHT to Choose.
 


Posts: 14 | Posted: 12:28 PM on June 9, 2007 | IP
EMyers

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Didn't say it was purely reproductive.  It is, however (in case your mother didn't go over this with you) the act through which human reproduction occurs.  If you do not wish to reproduce (i.e. become pregnant) don't do it.  It's really much simpler than you are trying to make it.  If you wish to continue doing so without becoming pregnant, then have surgery to remove the possibility.  What part of  "having sex = how humans naturally get pregnant" don't you understand?


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 1:28 PM on June 9, 2007 | IP
blazen

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I like reading your posts emyer, you debate with class

just wanted to jump into this discussion as well,
you make plenty of good points, that if you %100 do not want to become pregnant, you should be abstinent,   or in my books as well, stick to masterbation, oral or anal.  

However back to the topic, you brought up the quintessential factor of abortion - when is life truly created.  
If in fact life is created when a sperm fertilizes an egg, then by that defination, like you stated, the morning after pill would be murder.  For consistency's sake, this must be extended wherso, fact is that many fertlized eggs do not successfully reach the uterus, where they are instead flushed away into an abyss of death.  The act of having sex to create life actually directly results in death itself for unlucky souls.  Albeit these are "natural deaths", should we not act with greater responsibility?  Why do families mourn a stillborn but not these vanquished fertilized eggs?  Are they not all life?  It seems life is determined visually -through an enlarge stomach, a fetus, or a line on an applicator, do we not care for all souls, convenient to identify or not?  Are we not reponsible?


(Edited by blazen 9/3/2008 at 05:24 AM).
 


Posts: 1 | Posted: 05:15 AM on September 3, 2008 | IP
0112358132134

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Quote from EMyers at 1:28 PM on June 9, 2007 :
Didn't say it was purely reproductive.  


But you most certainly implied that it is.

Quote from EMyers at 1:28 PM on June 9, 2007 :
It is, however (in case your mother didn't go over this with you) the act through which human reproduction occurs.

Stop being so condescending.  The way you say stupid immature things like that makes it look like you are compensating for something, in this case; lack of brain power.  

The morning after pill is no more killing a human than nicking yourself with a razor while shaving.  At conception you have nothing more than a few cells with a unique set of DNA in them.  Every cell in your body has a set of DNA different from everyone elses (except Identical twins).

If you want to define murder as the stopping of POTENTIAL life, than Anyone post-pubescent that is not having sex right now, is a murderer.  Along with every homosexual on the planet.

Any rational, intelligent person can clearly see the error in this logic.






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“It is impossible for any number which is a power greater than the second to be written as a sum of two like powers. I have a truly marvelous demonstration of this proposition which this margin is too narrow to contain.” -Pierre de Fermat
 


Posts: 42 | Posted: 7:36 PM on October 13, 2008 | IP
certamen

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EMyers, you sound like a holier-than-thou idiot.

Unless you have been living under a rock for several million years, sex is obviously not just for reproductive reasons.

Of course teenagers aren't ready to have kids, yet they still have sex. They aren't mentally ready to be parents in the society we have forged for today, but their adolescent instincts tell them to have sex.

Yes, they should be responsible for their actions. But, as a not-so-flawless creation of trial-and-error evolution, humans make mistakes. Don't go on ranting about how this generation needs to learn responsibility by being forced into giving birth to children they're not ready to take care of.
 


Posts: 2 | Posted: 9:38 PM on January 26, 2009 | IP
punksoab

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Quote from EMyers at 1:28 PM on June 9, 2007 :
Didn't say it was purely reproductive.  It is, however (in case your mother didn't go over this with you) the act through which human reproduction occurs.  If you do not wish to reproduce (i.e. become pregnant) don't do it.  It's really much simpler than you are trying to make it.  If you wish to continue doing so without becoming pregnant, then have surgery to remove the possibility.  What part of  "having sex = how humans naturally get pregnant" don't you understand?


I agree with everyone else. This is about as rational and intellectual as trying to prove that fish can speak French with a slight Spanish accent. Your arguments are based solely on insulting others and thier own intellect which I must determine as a displacement mechanism coupled with projection. You are so angry at yourself for being ignorant that you try to make others seem ignorant and you insult others intellectual standing because you yourself have a below reasonable or otherwise questionable intellectual standing. Base your arguments on facts not empty insults or arguments. Here, I'll give you an example. Try to take notes.

The morning after pill or emergency birth control could not be considered murder being that for there to be human life there must be certain basic operations. These include development of necessary bodily organs such as the brain, heart, livers and lungs, emotional bearing and understanding, intellectual comprehension and must be able to survive outside of the mother's womb. Hence, from the first day until the third trimester, fetuses can not be verified as human life but can be proven to have the POTENTIAL to human life.

The other basic fact is the development of certain bodily organs necessary for life. The fetus does not develop most until the late second trimester. Hence taking the EBC is comparable to anything as simple as a period or ejaculation. Above that fact, the statement that EBC is abortion would be similar to stating that having a period when the ovum is fertilized is also a form of involuntary abortion.


There, you saw how I did it. I hope you took notes because I'm similar to a college professor. Ask questions now not at the time of the exam. And your exam starts when you want so whenever you are ready, I'll see just how intelligent and reasonable you are.


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A strong body with a weak mind is like a fort with no soldiers to protect it. A weak body with a strong mind is like a battalion out in the open. To solve all situations, one must moderate themselves.

Personal quote
 


Posts: 17 | Posted: 12:11 AM on January 29, 2009 | IP
gluteus_maximus

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Quote from 42ndEndOfTheWorld at 12:17 PM on July 23, 2006 :
Fetus older than 6 moths is not a property (although it is not a human either) becouse it can psyhologicaly feel pain.



What a load of crap. What the hell is it then? What is it 1 second before 6 months? something else?


 


Posts: 151 | Posted: 8:16 PM on February 23, 2009 | IP
mpc755

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The point of this thread was not to determine when a fetus becomes a person but to make the point that, for the vast majority of American's, an eight hour old fertilized egg has a different "value" than a person.

How many people would put their eighteen year old sister/daughter/friend/cousin/aunt/girlfriend to death by lethal injection or have her spend the rest of her life in jail because she took the morning after pill?

Not many.

What is the correct punishment for a woman who premeditated the act of taking the morning after pill?

Should it be life in prison?
10 years in prison?
5 years?

What?

What is the appropriate penalty?

And more importantly, how is it Ok for the penalty, if there is one, to be so different from a premeditated murder?
 


Posts: 19 | Posted: 11:56 AM on February 25, 2009 | IP
    
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