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What i don't understand is that some people preach about the sanctity of life in regards to abortion, and yet still support the death penalty (like Gearge W. Bush, for example). Please, someone explain this to me.
 


Posts: 292 | Posted: 8:38 PM on March 2, 2006 | IP
EMyers

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The key issue is innocence.


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 11:09 PM on March 2, 2006 | IP
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But life is life - one person's life shouldn't mean more than another's, right? Going on the sanctity of human life argument, anyway.
 


Posts: 292 | Posted: 12:24 AM on March 3, 2006 | IP
EMyers

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I suppose it depends on where you get your definition of "sanctity of human life".  I've never heard of the death penalty for people who have not already trodden upon the "sanctity of human life".  What about the sanctity of the lives s/he's killed?  I do not support the death penalty for littering.  Or sealing a pack of gum.  Or being inside someone's womb.


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 09:38 AM on March 3, 2006 | IP
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So an 'eye for an eye' you say? That's SO Old Testament! Don't Christians follow the New Testament? Isn't it God's job to judge/punish those who murder, etc., while we're told to love and pray for those who wrong us/others? I really don't see how people can preach about how precious human life is, yet still support the death penalty.
 


Posts: 292 | Posted: 01:44 AM on March 4, 2006 | IP
EMyers

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And I don't see how someone can be for abortion and against the death penalty.  Go figure.


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 10:00 AM on March 4, 2006 | IP
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Actually, it makes far more sense in my case than in yours. I'm against the death penalty because i believe it is a hypocritical approach to punishment and undermines a legal system's integrity when dealing with murderers. To kill someone as punishment for killing someone else is terribly hypocritical, and i would much rather see someone rot away in jail. My opposition has nothing to do with the sanctity of life etc., and am therefore still able to support a woman's right to abortion freely without hypocrisy.
 


Posts: 292 | Posted: 12:34 AM on March 6, 2006 | IP
EMyers

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Exodus 21:22-23
Exodus 23:7
1 Corinthians 3:16-17
Proverbs 31:8
Jeremiah 1:4-5
Isaiah 49:1-5
Acts 5:29

Maybe these will clear up President Bush's position for you.


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 09:30 AM on March 6, 2006 | IP
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Well, seeing all but two are found in the Old Testament, and are actually contradicted in the New Testament (somewhere around Matthew 5:38 etc. is one example), it seems George Bush, among others, haven't read far enough into their Bibles.
 


Posts: 292 | Posted: 01:59 AM on March 7, 2006 | IP
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Romans 13:1-5
Matthew 26:51-52
Matthew 5:38 does not mention anything about murder or the responsibility of the government (see Romans again).  It does mention what the individual Christian attitude should be when someone wrongs us (and if the wrong is murder, I'm not sure how I can see "turning the other cheek" when you are already dead).  Perhaps I'm not trying to read anything into it that isn't already there.


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 08:14 AM on March 7, 2006 | IP
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Well, i can tell you that today's authorities are not brought to power by God, for starters.

And i still can't grasp the viewpoint of being anti-abortion with the argument of the sanctity of all human life, and yet at the same time be pro-death penalty. The death penalty kills people. There is no way you can ignore the teachings in the New Testament of 'turning the other cheek' and letting God judge those who sin.

The death penalty is the ultimate revenge - it goes way beyond 'punishment' - and should therefore be seen as ignoring the New Testament's philosophy on revenge. Christians who are anti-abortion using the sanctity of life philosophy undermine their entire argument against the practice by being pro-death penalty. It doesn't matter whether a person is good or evil - a life is a life, and it should matter to you.
 


Posts: 292 | Posted: 12:33 AM on March 8, 2006 | IP
EMyers

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It does matter.  And a person who repeatedly ignores the sanctity of life by taking the lives of others has forfeited his own rights.  I don't get why you can't see the difference between an unborn baby who has never done anything and a serial killer who enjoys taking the lives of others.  How are these the same thing in your mind?


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 09:33 AM on March 8, 2006 | IP
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They're not the same thing in my mind, but they should be in yours. Life is life - you can't say that because someone has acted in evil ways that they all of a sudden aren't a 'life'. If you are willing to call a fertilised egg 'life', then you must call a fully-developed, living, breathing, talking human being 'life' also.


 


Posts: 292 | Posted: 12:12 AM on March 11, 2006 | IP
EMyers

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They're not the same thing in my mind, but they should be in yours.

And here I thought part of your problem with the whole thing was telling people what they should believe (even if, apparently, you don't believe it yourself).  Guess I was wrong.  In that case, abortion should be wrong in your eyes.  Why?  Because I've decided that is what you should believe.


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 09:34 AM on March 11, 2006 | IP
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You know exactly what i mean when i say that. If you are going to argue that abortion is wrong due to your belief in the sanctity of life, then you must also believe the death penalty to be wrong if you actually believe in the sanctity of life. If you do not (which, at the moment, i feel you don't), then your main argument against abortion is undermined.
 


Posts: 292 | Posted: 12:31 AM on March 12, 2006 | IP
EMyers

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Who said that I based my opinion on "sanctity of life"?


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 09:19 AM on March 12, 2006 | IP
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okay, what do you base it on?
 


Posts: 292 | Posted: 12:35 AM on March 15, 2006 | IP
EMyers

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I base it on the right of the innocent to live an unmolested life.  A person who takes the life of an innocent gives up his own right to his life.  Its part and parcel of the choice he/she made.  An unborn child has done absolutely nothing to justify having his brains sucked out of his head or his limbs ripped out and skull crushed.  A serial murderer on the other hand has made his own decision, knows the consequences of his actions, and by carrying out those actions has accepted his fate.  The two situations are in no way equitable.


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 09:37 AM on March 17, 2006 | IP
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Quote from EMyers at 09:37 AM on March 17, 2006 :
 A person who takes the life of an innocent gives up his own right to his life.


Is this your own philosophy? Does the Bible condone this?

 


Posts: 292 | Posted: 02:21 AM on March 24, 2006 | IP
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Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: For in the image of God made he man.


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 08:48 AM on March 24, 2006 | IP
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As long as the Bible is concerned in this debate, I'd like to say a few things.

The Bible teaches us to honor the rulers of the government. It also says that the particular rulers are set in position by God; for whatever reason he may have in mind.

As a pro-life and pro-death penalty Christian, I believe that the death penalty ought to stay. If I had to answer with my view on the governements right to have such a law, I would vote to keep it in.

The death penalty should not be taken down as if we were ruthlessly killing innocent men and women. The death penalty is there for people who commit ultimate crimes and if they commit crimes, they have nobody to blame but themselves if they are sentenced. Jesus himself said that he who lives by the sword dies by the sword.

A baby is innocent and pure. A murderer is not. I'm surprised that a comparison is even being made here. The death penalty is there for people who deserve it.


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I want to know facts for both sides, and I will not take biased words as a valid arguement for whatever reason.
 


Posts: 31 | Posted: 1:12 PM on March 25, 2006 | IP
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The year 2058 A.D. a micro robot that makes man emun to all forms of iness has been aproved by the FDA for use in the jeneral populance. It is believed that this will save millions of live within the next few years.

(This never happened because the person that invented the robot was aborted back in 2006 A.D.)

EMyers you and I have found one topic that we agree on, abortion is as bad as murder.


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Darkside Enterprises were the impossible meets possible.

Tread softy and carry a big stick, preferably an AT4
 


Posts: 681 | Posted: 9:50 PM on January 8, 2007 | IP
EMyers

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I'm a 16 year old boy, that has been home schooled most of my life. I have only recently started going to a charter school and have had no problems fitting in. I have found that most kids do not learn much from school, many of them have no idea about what is going on in the world, and many of them have trouble following what is taught. Because I was home schooled, I tend to find that I'm far above the other students., particularly in vocabulary where I frequently score 120%.



You're not making a really great argument for home schooling when you misspell three words in one sentence.  


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 06:41 AM on January 9, 2007 | IP
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My one weak spot is spelling.


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Darkside Enterprises were the impossible meets possible.

Tread softy and carry a big stick, preferably an AT4
 


Posts: 681 | Posted: 5:04 PM on January 9, 2007 | IP
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Quote from SilverStar at 9:50 PM on January 8, 2007 :
The year 2058 A.D. a micro robot that makes man emun to all forms of iness has been aproved by the FDA for use in the jeneral populance. It is believed that this will save millions of live within the next few years.

(This never happened because the person that invented the robot was aborted back in 2006 A.D.)

EMyers you and I have found one topic that we agree on, abortion is as bad as murder.


5 misspellings in one sentence.

[/i][i][i]


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"God is most certainly not threatened by science; He made it all possible...science is not threatened by God; it is enhanced"
 


Posts: 52 | Posted: 2:34 PM on January 17, 2007 | IP
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Very disappointing...

As usual, when asked a simple question which almost demands a simple answer, we are treated to a lot of circular Biblical references.

Try again...

WHY is state-sponsored murder any more acceptable than national abortion rights?

Murder is murder, no? No matter who the victim is? (We're talking about the act itself, not our moral judgement of the victim)

As soon as we get together on these inextricably intertwined issues as a society, I think a lot of people would find themselves able to back a more coherent policy.

I would strongly support an anti-murder policy, i.e. NO abortions, NO death penalty.


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Let us be thankful for the fools. But for them the rest of us could not succeed. -Twain
 


Posts: 9 | Posted: 3:03 PM on March 13, 2007 | IP
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Circular?


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 08:23 AM on March 15, 2007 | IP
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I agree that abortion and the death penalty are both wrong. Though the basis of my belief has nothing to do with innocence. I admit that I sometimes feel that some people have no right to live but the fact remains that putting life and death into the hands of men should not be done. That should remain in the hands of God.

I too support an anti-murder policy.


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If the object be too far, we take a falling meteor for a star
 


Posts: 2 | Posted: 03:34 AM on March 16, 2007 | IP
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Quote from EMyers at 08:23 AM on March 15, 2007 :
Circular?


Perhaps being a newbie here I should have chosen my words with more thought. For that I apologize, I meant no insult.

I refer to
"Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: For in the image of God made he man."

This can be taken two ways, surely:
a) in support of the death penalty
b) in support of executing the executioner

Perhaps you could clear that up for us and reply to my post?

Many thanks.


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Let us be thankful for the fools. But for them the rest of us could not succeed. -Twain
 


Posts: 9 | Posted: 6:34 PM on March 16, 2007 | IP
EMyers

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Well B would make absolutely no sense as you would then have to execute the execustioner's executioner until everyone on the planet was dead...

A fits better with Romans 13....

3 For rulers are not a terror to the good work, but to the evil. And wouldest thou have no fear of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise from the same:

4 for he is a minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is a minister of God, an avenger for wrath to him that doeth evil.

5 Wherefore ye must needs be in subjection, not only because of the wrath, but also for conscience' sake.

The government (rulers) do not bear the sword in vain... i.e. they are willing (and obligated) to use it (not capriciously as some would have us to believe, but with wisdom and justice).  


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 02:04 AM on March 17, 2007 | IP
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Thank you.

What part of "Thou shalt not kill" do you *not* understand?

Moses didn't refer to paragraph 2), sub-section 8.1 "Oh, and you can subvert any other future scripture to justify your lust for revenge"

These people need our prayers, not our hate.


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Let us be thankful for the fools. But for them the rest of us could not succeed. -Twain
 


Posts: 9 | Posted: 08:56 AM on March 18, 2007 | IP
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And, if you only read the English translation (especially the King James which is terrible) then I would agree with the confusion.  However, (and you can feel free to double check this with any of your Jewish friends) in Hebrew the text refers to committing murder, not killing.  After all, if you hold it to mean kill then you are not justified in eating meat (which God specifically allows) or killing bugs, etc.  I suppose washing your hands with any of the soaps on today's market (just try and find a non-anti-bacterial soap) would be considered "killing" as well.  One can't ignore the intent of the message just so one can twist it to mean what they want it to mean.

"Rise Peter, KILL and eat"


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 4:48 PM on March 18, 2007 | IP
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OK, "Thou shalt not murder your fellow human". Clean, concise. Uninterpretable.

I still do not understand how any Christian can justify killing another human for revenge, whatever the earthly justification. Surely it is wrong, period.

I'm sure I can find many passages about *mercy* for those whom the enemy temporarily controls.

I am sad to see how His Word has been so hijacked and distorted. He's not in a book, He lives in our hearts.

He is Love, and I hope it's time for our society to  reflect just that.


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Let us be thankful for the fools. But for them the rest of us could not succeed. -Twain
 


Posts: 9 | Posted: 08:02 AM on March 19, 2007 | IP
EMyers

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Who said it was for revenge?  What ever happened to the punishment fitting the crime?


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 8:34 PM on March 19, 2007 | IP
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Why else would we try and kill someone who needs our help & prayers?

It's certainly not for LOVE, is it? That's what Jesus taught us. LOVE. Love the sinner, hate the sin?

Next we'll be stoning adulterers.


(Edited by garywise 3/24/2007 at 4:36 PM).


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Let us be thankful for the fools. But for them the rest of us could not succeed. -Twain
 


Posts: 9 | Posted: 4:32 PM on March 24, 2007 | IP
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And what do you think of Romans 13?


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 07:36 AM on March 26, 2007 | IP
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:::YAWN:::

looks as if the abortion/death penalty debate might turn into a Biblical debate. (that is always boring)

First let me get the whole Bible thing out of the way...
If you are a Christian by faith, (I am) it really does not make sense to quote the old testament in order to support your stand on a particular topic. I think Christ is very clear about his teachings, we really do not need additional sources to validate him, and quite frankly the old testament only contridicts him. If you must use your status as a christian to back up your stance on abortion ...a simple "christ would not agree with abortion" will suffice.  However, apply that belief with the death penalty as well. (christ himself was given the death penalty for "breaking" the old laws as written in the old testament)...I'm just asking that if you are going to use your status as a christian..stay consistent.

Myself, I am pro-choice and somewhere in the middle with the death penalty. The difference between the two is choice. Women who have abortions choose to terminate their pregnancys. Being given the death penalty is not a choice. Some may argue that the choice is made when the crime is commited....not entirely true....If it were true then you would have to say that every offender sentenced to the death penalty had absolute criminal intent at the time they committed their offence...And that would be a very ignorant assumption. It is just not true

You can also apply this logic to abortion, while comparing the two...Women do not have criminal intent when they decide to have an abortion. They are exercising their right to choice..which is given to us by the laws of this land...the same ones that the Bible tells you to obey (just thought I would throw that in there)

Hope everyone is enjoying their weekend
 


Posts: 3 | Posted: 12:33 PM on March 31, 2007 | IP
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1)  What choice is the child given again?

2)  If the "law of the land" decided to make rape legal, do you think God would still be in favor of it?  (just thought I'd throw that in there)


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 2:28 PM on April 1, 2007 | IP
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Quote from garywise at 3:03 PM on March 13, 2007 :
Very disappointing...

As usual, when asked a simple question which almost demands a simple answer, we are treated to a lot of circular Biblical references.

Try again...

WHY is state-sponsored murder any more acceptable than national abortion rights?

Murder is murder, no? No matter who the victim is? (We're talking about the act itself, not our moral judgement of the victim)

As soon as we get together on these inextricably intertwined issues as a society, I think a lot of people would find themselves able to back a more coherent policy.

I would strongly support an anti-murder policy, i.e. NO abortions, NO death penalty.



So a baby kill, raped, or molested another person.


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Darkside Enterprises were the impossible meets possible.

Tread softy and carry a big stick, preferably an AT4
 


Posts: 681 | Posted: 9:15 PM on April 6, 2007 | IP
    
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