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Fencer27

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This thread is all about abortion! Go wild PC!


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"So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets." - Jesus (Matthew 7:12)
 


Posts: 550 | Posted: 2:46 PM on September 28, 2010 | IP
porkchop

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Quote from wisp at 8:52 PM on September 27, 2010 :


The topic here, the big elephant in the room, is about a woman who is ALREADY PREGNANT.
I don't want for abortions to be criminalized, because it's dumb, it serves no purpose, and it causes more suffering than it could avoid.

Does that answer your inquiry?


Not really Wisp.
So criminalizing murder is "dumb"?  
If an unborn baby is in the womb, it's ok to kill / abort it( stick scissors into it's skull), but if the same baby is outside the womb (just born) and the good Dr. sticks scissors into it's skull it's murder. does this make sense to you?



(Edited by porkchop 9/28/2010 at 5:56 PM).


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He who assumes he has gained the world merely through his 5 senses and who loses faith, loses all
 


Posts: 434 | Posted: 5:53 PM on September 28, 2010 | IP
Apoapsis

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I can't tell who is saying what. :-(


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Pogge:” This is the volume of a sphere with a 62 kilometer (about 39 miles) radius, which is considerably smaller than the 2,000 mile radius of the Earth.”
Wikipedia:” For Earth, the mean radius is 6,371.009 km(≈3,958.761 mi; ≈3,440.069 nmi).”
Wisp to Lester (on Pogge): Do you admit he was wrong about the basics?
Lester: No

 


Posts: 1743 | Posted: 10:27 PM on September 28, 2010 | IP
derwood

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I mentioned before that I worked at a Planned Parenthood in Michigan that had been the target of 2 Christian terrorist attacks, and that the clinic did not perform abortions.  There was an abortion clinic a few blocks away.  They had a weekly protest.  While I worked at PP, I heard about a worker at the abortion clinic who quit her job because one of the protestors actually came in for an abortion and the worker wanted to make it public but was forbidden.

I'm sure that the pro-like protestor had a really really good reason for wanting an abortion...


-------
Lester:

"I said I have a doctorate and a university background in anatomy, physiology, biochemistry, physics, chemistry, pathology etc. ..."
 


Posts: 1646 | Posted: 05:06 AM on September 29, 2010 | IP
wisp

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The topic here, the big elephant in the room, is about a woman who is ALREADY PREGNANT.
I don't want for abortions to be criminalized, because it's dumb, it serves no purpose, and it causes more suffering than it could avoid.

Does that answer your inquiry?
Not really Wisp.
Do you even remember what your question was?

Because that was a straightforward answer.

So criminalizing murder is "dumb"?
Words, words, words. That's all you have.

If an unborn baby is in the womb, it's ok to kill / abort it( stick scissors into it's skull), but if the same baby is outside the womb (just born) and the good Dr. sticks scissors into it's skull it's murder. does this make sense to you?
Ah, the slippery slope fallacy. It never gets old.

No. Specific legislation is needed for different stages of development (based on scientific facts) and different circumstances.

For instance, if the "
baby" is anencephalic, yes, kill it at any stage of development, and even if it was already born.

When would you consider your question answered, porkchop?



-------
Quote from Lester10 at 2:51 PM on September 21, 2010 in the thread
Scientists assert (by Lester):

Ha Ha. (...) I've told you people endlessly about my evidence but you don't want to show me yours - you just assert.
porkchop
Would we see a mammal by the water's edge "suddenly" start breathing underwater(w/camera effect of course)?
Contact me at youdebate.1wr@gishpuppy.com
 


Posts: 3037 | Posted: 06:58 AM on September 29, 2010 | IP
Fencer27

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Quote from porkchop at 8:53 PM on September 28, 2010 :
So criminalizing murder is "dumb"?  
If an unborn baby is in the womb, it's ok to kill / abort it( stick scissors into it's skull), but if the same baby is outside the womb (just born) and the good Dr. sticks scissors into it's skull it's murder. does this make sense to you?


You make it sound as if we think it is okay to abort/kill a baby one day from being born without good cause but not okay the second it leaves its womb. The standard pro-choice stance is that it is not okay to abort a fetus in the third trimester without good medical reasons, like the mother is going to die unless it is aborted, stuff like that happens and can't be helped.

I think the standard pro-choice stance is that sometimes abortion in the first trimester is the lesser of two evils, and to give that decision to the mother.

I don't like abortions, I don't know anyone who does, but we have to base policies off of the real world, not some ideal paradise that ignores how the real world operates.


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"So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets." - Jesus (Matthew 7:12)
 


Posts: 550 | Posted: 09:50 AM on September 29, 2010 | IP
porkchop

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Quote from wisp at 09:58 AM on September 29, 2010 :
The topic here, the big elephant in the room, is about a woman who is ALREADY PREGNANT.
I don't want for abortions to be criminalized, because it's dumb, it serves no purpose, and it causes more suffering than it could avoid.

Does that answer your inquiry?
Not really Wisp.
Do you even remember what your question was?

Because that was a straightforward answer.

So criminalizing murder is "dumb"?
Words, words, words. That's all you have.

Words is all I have? What would you like, a pot of gold? what is a debate without words? makes no sense~~~


If an unborn baby is in the womb, it's ok to kill / abort it( stick scissors into it's skull), but if the same baby is outside the womb (just born) and the good Dr. sticks scissors into it's skull it's murder. does this make sense to you?
Ah, the slippery slope fallacy. It never gets old.

No. Specific legislation is needed for different stages of development (based on scientific facts) and different circumstances.

For instance, if the "
baby" is anencephalic, yes, kill it at any stage of development, and even if it was already born.

When would you consider your question answered, porkchop?



Not quite, let me rephrase.
At what point is it NOT ok to stick the scissors into a healthy baby's skull? At what point do you consider it murder? ok, try not to parse my words til I die of boredom.




(Edited by porkchop 9/29/2010 at 5:42 PM).


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He who assumes he has gained the world merely through his 5 senses and who loses faith, loses all
 


Posts: 434 | Posted: 5:33 PM on September 29, 2010 | IP
creationest6

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I'll give my two cents here.

I believe abortion is wrong. Yes, you are killing a baby. I know the argument exists that it isn't aware, it isn't conscious. I may be naive is saying this, but then isn't killing a three week old baby like killing a sleeping person then? The baby isn't conscious or aware, like a sleeping person, but it will be soon. So you are killing off the baby before it can become conscious, like shooting a sleeping guy am I not correct? (Seriously, am I correct or not?)

That's my two cents on abortion.


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"If God wanted us to be concerned for the plight of toads, he would have made them cute and fluffy."

-Dave Barry
 


Posts: 451 | Posted: 10:39 AM on September 30, 2010 | IP
orion

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PC & C6 -

Consider this:

Many human fertility clinics perform In-vitro Fertilization (IVF) procedures. The term "in-vitro" is derived from a Latin phrase meaning "in glass." Some couples are unable to conceive naturally. So, ova extracted from a woman's body are fertilized in a glass dish in a laboratory. Usually, her husband's sperm is used. A few of the healthiest embryos are implanted in the woman's uterus.

These facilities are sometimes called Assisted Reproductive Technology (ART) laboratories. There are about 356 such labs in the U.S.

Their goal is to impregnate women who otherwise would not be able to have a child. The procedure involves:

- Giving special medication to the woman that results in the development, growth, and maturation of eggs in a woman's ovaries.  
- Extracting perhaps 24 mature mature ova (aka oocytes) from the woman's ovaries.
- Fertilizing the ova with sperm, typically from her husband or an anonymous donor.
- Placing the embryos in a special incubator which encourages their growth.
- Selecting two to four healthy-looking embryos and implanting them in the woman's uterus.
- Disposing of the remaining 20 or so surplus embryos in some manner.

The disposal of almost all of the embryos results, or will result, in their death. Yet, even though the pro-life movement regards all embryos as human persons, pro-lifer leaders seem to be mainly concerned about the few dozen embryos which have been killed by having their stem cells extracted. There seems to be little or no concern over the many hundreds of thousands of embryos which have been killed or which will eventually die in IVF clinics.


An embryo is NOT yet a baby.  True, it can become a fetus if allowed to develop.  

I still have yet to hear PC or C6 address the other difficult issues that they seem to ignore.  What if the women is ill-prepared and/or financially unable to raise a child?  What about the role of the father and the father's family?  What if the male forced himself upon the woman and she gets pregnant?  It happens all the time.  What then?  Her whole life could be changed for the worse because of that.  What if she had plans to go to college and/or pursue a career?  That might not happen now because she must care for a baby.

No one likes abortion!  But you guys (PC & C6) ignore the consequences of what could happen in the case of an unwanted pregnacy.      

Another issue - stem cell research.  They use the rejected IVF embryos for stem cell research.  Research that could benefit thousands of people, but the religious right FUNDAMENTALISTS object to it!  Why?  
 
 


Posts: 1458 | Posted: 4:10 PM on September 30, 2010 | IP
porkchop

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Quote from orion at 7:10 PM on September 30, 2010 :
PC & C6 -
What if the women is ill-prepared and/or financially unable to raise a child?  What about the role of the father and the father's family?  What if the male forced himself upon the woman and she gets pregnant?  It happens all the time.  What then?  Her whole life could be changed for the worse because of that.  What if she had plans to go to college and/or pursue a career?  That might not happen now because she must care for a baby.

No one likes abortion!  But you guys (PC & C6) ignore the consequences of what could happen in the case of an unwanted pregnacy.      



Still waiting for the answer to the question that started this thread:

"At what point is it NOT ok to stick the scissors into a healthy baby's skull? At what point do you consider it murder?"

And to answer your very short-sighted question about
"What if the women is ill-prepared and/or financially unable to raise a child?"
I HAVE THE ANSWER:  KILL THE CHILD.
Hows that? You see that's pro-choice, a euphemism to say there is NO CHOICE for the baby, he/she MUST DIE for convenience.





(Edited by porkchop 9/30/2010 at 5:27 PM).


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He who assumes he has gained the world merely through his 5 senses and who loses faith, loses all
 


Posts: 434 | Posted: 5:23 PM on September 30, 2010 | IP
orion

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PC - I think a woman should have some control over the destiny of her own life despite the fact that some lout couldn't keep his pants on!  And you?

I see you ignore to answer my questions.

(Edited by orion 9/30/2010 at 6:46 PM).
 


Posts: 1458 | Posted: 5:59 PM on September 30, 2010 | IP
creationest6

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I will come back with more later, but for now I would like to say that a girl who isn't ready to raise a child shouldn't have been messing around with a guy in the first place.


-------
"If God wanted us to be concerned for the plight of toads, he would have made them cute and fluffy."

-Dave Barry
 


Posts: 451 | Posted: 7:23 PM on September 30, 2010 | IP
orion

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Quote from creationest6 at 10:23 PM on September 30, 2010 :
I will come back with more later, but for now I would like to say that a girl who isn't ready to raise a child shouldn't have been messing around with a guy in the first place.


So is it always the girl's fault then that she gets pregnant?  That seems to be the message you're implying.

And what about those girls/women who are victims or rape or incest?  


 


Posts: 1458 | Posted: 7:35 PM on September 30, 2010 | IP
Fencer27

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Good posts Orion.

Quote from porkchop at 8:23 PM on September 30, 2010 :
Still waiting for the answer to the question that started this thread:

"At what point is it NOT ok to stick the scissors into a healthy baby's skull? At what point do you consider it murder?"


I've repeatedly said that the standard pro-choice stance is no abortion in the third trimester without good medical cause. I don't think this is a complete answer, but it is at least a start.

I think we have to weigh the pros and cons of abortion and come up with something reasonable and humane that will address both the mother's and fetus's rights.

And to answer your very short-sighted question about
"What if the women is ill-prepared and/or financially unable to raise a child?"
I HAVE THE ANSWER:  KILL THE CHILD.
Hows that? You see that's pro-choice, a euphemism to say there is NO CHOICE for the baby, he/she MUST DIE for convenience.


What's your real answer? Again, fromAGI, about 75% of those with abortions have expressed major concerns with their finances in taking on a child, many of which already have children. Either the extra money required to take care of the child is not available or in taking care of the child will result in not having a job or able to go to school making them unable to financially care for the child now or in the future.

PC, how would you handle this issue? Especially with your anti-social anti-tax stance? With no money in the government from low taxes, and no social help programs from policies, exactly what are these people supposed to do? Send them into orphanages and foster care, a system that is already overburdened and has  negative effects on these children? That is what will happen (legally) if the mother cannot provide for the child.

(Edited by Fencer27 9/30/2010 at 8:35 PM).


-------
"So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets." - Jesus (Matthew 7:12)
 


Posts: 550 | Posted: 8:34 PM on September 30, 2010 | IP
derwood

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Quote from Fencer27 at 11:34 PM on September 30, 2010 :
Good posts Orion.

Quote from porkchop at 8:23 PM on September 30, 2010 :
Still waiting for the answer to the question that started this thread:

"At what point is it NOT ok to stick the scissors into a healthy baby's skull? At what point do you consider it murder?"


I've repeatedly said that the standard pro-choice stance is no abortion in the third trimester without good medical cause. I don't think this is a complete answer, but it is at least a start.


And it is also true that such procedures account for fewer than something like 1% of all abortions.


What's your real answer? Again, fromAGI, about 75% of those with abortions have expressed major concerns with their finances in taking on a child, many of which already have children. Either the extra money required to take care of the child is not available or in taking care of the child will result in not having a job or able to go to school making them unable to financially care for the child now or in the future.


Well, they could always pull a Porky - pop the kids that they can't afford out anyway then blame the 'gubment' for their financial problems  on too much taxes.


-------
Lester:

"I said I have a doctorate and a university background in anatomy, physiology, biochemistry, physics, chemistry, pathology etc. ..."
 


Posts: 1646 | Posted: 2:31 PM on October 2, 2010 | IP
porkchop

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Quote from Fencer27 at 11:34 PM on September 30, 2010 :I've repeatedly said that the standard pro-choice stance is no abortion in the third trimester without good medical cause. I don't think this is a complete answer, but it is at least a start.

I think we have to weigh the pros and cons of abortion and come up with something reasonable and humane that will address both the mother's and fetus's rights.


No abortion in the 3rd trimester? Ok , so with your logic, 1 second before the 3rd trimester begins, abortion is then acceptable, IE murder of a living human being on the wrong side of a mother's abdomen. This is where your logic leads us.

BTW, I noticed Wisp has backed out of this discussion.




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He who assumes he has gained the world merely through his 5 senses and who loses faith, loses all
 


Posts: 434 | Posted: 5:43 PM on October 3, 2010 | IP
wisp

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You can say the same thing about drinking alcohol at a certain age.

Reality is a gradient, but we have to decide where to draw lines, for legal purposes.

Porkchop, if you want to think i backed out, suit yourself. But i've wasted my time with worthier debaters on this subject.



-------
Quote from Lester10 at 2:51 PM on September 21, 2010 in the thread
Scientists assert (by Lester):

Ha Ha. (...) I've told you people endlessly about my evidence but you don't want to show me yours - you just assert.
porkchop
Would we see a mammal by the water's edge "suddenly" start breathing underwater(w/camera effect of course)?
Contact me at youdebate.1wr@gishpuppy.com
 


Posts: 3037 | Posted: 12:20 AM on October 4, 2010 | IP
Fencer27

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Quote from porkchop at 8:43 PM on October 3, 2010 :
No abortion in the 3rd trimester? Ok , so with your logic, 1 second before the 3rd trimester begins, abortion is then acceptable, IE murder of a living human being on the wrong side of a mother's abdomen. This is where your logic leads us.


No. I said that it was a start. Meaning that it should be developed further. As I'm not into the debate much I really don't know what medical professionals and pro-choice activists say about the second trimester. Perhaps a good reason is necessary at that time, but not as dire as a third trimester abortion.

As Wisp said, the real answer is that it is a cline, a gradient. However we need to draw lines for policies and laws. A good analogy Wisp brought up is alcohol. Is there any real difference between 1 second before you turn 21 and the second you turn 21? No. However such determinants are necessary for legal purposes.

BTW, I noticed you completely omitted the second half of my post concerning the economic and inhumane aspects of outlawing abortions (keep in mind that wasn't the be-all end-all either). This isn't some small percentage of people getting abortions, this is the majority. Any sane person that genuinely wants improve the overall situation needs to seriously address these issues. Or does the lifestyle of these people not matter to you; all that matters is that your notion of what is moral, regardless of the situation these people are in, becomes the law of the land?


-------
"So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets." - Jesus (Matthew 7:12)
 


Posts: 550 | Posted: 07:32 AM on October 4, 2010 | IP
porkchop

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Quote from Fencer27 at 10:32 AM on October 4, 2010 :
Quote from porkchop at 8:43 PM on October 3, 2010 :
No abortion in the 3rd trimester? Ok , so with your logic, 1 second before the 3rd trimester begins, abortion is then acceptable, IE murder of a living human being on the wrong side of a mother's abdomen. This is where your logic leads us.


No. I said that it was a start. Meaning that it should be developed further. As I'm not into the debate much I really don't know what medical professionals and pro-choice activists say about the second trimester. Perhaps a good reason is necessary at that time, but not as dire as a third trimester abortion.

As Wisp said, the real answer is that it is a cline, a gradient. However we need to draw lines for policies and laws. A good analogy Wisp brought up is alcohol. Is there any real difference between 1 second before you turn 21 and the second you turn 21? No. However such determinants are necessary for legal purposes.

BTW, I noticed you completely omitted the second half of my post concerning the economic and inhumane aspects of outlawing abortions (keep in mind that wasn't the be-all end-all either). This isn't some small percentage of people getting abortions, this is the majority. Any sane person that genuinely wants improve the overall situation needs to seriously address these issues. Or does the lifestyle of these people not matter to you; all that matters is that your notion of what is moral, regardless of the situation these people are in, becomes the law of the land?


You are comparing the drinking age to that of a life of a human baby that is to be snuffed out? You have no problem demarcating a second when it means the life of a human being. Well since animals evolved and we did too and animals kill each other, why not us humans kill each other as well.

But since you mention consequences women find themselves in IE lifestyle, current situation etc, which are temporary, but killing a baby is forever, let me ask you what is the most basic fundamental right any human can possibly have? It's the RIGHT TO LIFE. You seem to have no problem circumventing this right by giving in to temporary circumstances the mother may be in.
What if the mother is in a bad circumstance a week after the baby is born? Is this much different? Where again, exactly do YOU as a person draw the line?



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He who assumes he has gained the world merely through his 5 senses and who loses faith, loses all
 


Posts: 434 | Posted: 5:12 PM on October 4, 2010 | IP
wisp

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You are comparing the drinking age to that of a life of a human baby that is to be snuffed out?
No. We're comparing setting a conventional time limit with setting a conventional time limit.

You have no problem demarcating a second when it means the life of a human being. Well since animals evolved and we did too and animals kill each other, why not us humans kill each other as well.
Because by describing it doesn't mean we're endorsing.

But since you mention consequences women find themselves in IE lifestyle, current situation etc, which are temporary, but killing a baby is forever, let me ask you what is the most basic fundamental right any human can possibly have? It's the RIGHT TO LIFE.
Does that apply with a human being without a brain?

Does "he" have the right to be maintained in a respirator?

You seem to have no problem circumventing this right by giving in to temporary circumstances the mother may be in.
What are we protecting?

You say "human beings", but i actually care about suffering.

And it's a scientific fact that a tiny embryo is not capable of that.

What if the mother is in a bad circumstance a week after the baby is born? Is this much different?
Yes, it is.
Where again, exactly do YOU as a person draw the line?
I read that fetuses don't have what it takes to feel pain until the 5th month of gestation. So that's where i'd put it.



-------
Quote from Lester10 at 2:51 PM on September 21, 2010 in the thread
Scientists assert (by Lester):

Ha Ha. (...) I've told you people endlessly about my evidence but you don't want to show me yours - you just assert.
porkchop
Would we see a mammal by the water's edge "suddenly" start breathing underwater(w/camera effect of course)?
Contact me at youdebate.1wr@gishpuppy.com
 


Posts: 3037 | Posted: 5:58 PM on October 4, 2010 | IP
Fencer27

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Quote from porkchop at 8:12 PM on October 4, 2010 :
You are comparing the drinking age to that of a life of a human baby that is to be snuffed out?


No, just to reiterate Wisp's salient point, we are comparing making a time limit with making another time limit for legal purposes. There is no essential difference from one second to the next, however we must make these checkpoints of sorts for practical purposes. We do the same thing with drivers licenses, going into kindergarten, voting for public office, smoking cigarettes, running for public office, legally having a job and so on.

You have no problem demarcating a second when it means the life of a human being. Well since animals evolved and we did too and animals kill each other, why not us humans kill each other as well.


Sometimes you have to make hard decisions. It isn't easy (I've heard stories from marines on how they had to gun down their own men to secure the lives of everyone else), but sometimes you just have to make sacrifices. The Neanderthals practiced infanticide because (similarly) they simply could not care for those infants and doing so would endanger the entire clan.

But since you mention consequences women find themselves in IE lifestyle, current situation etc, which are temporary, but killing a baby is forever, let me ask you what is the most basic fundamental right any human can possibly have? It's the RIGHT TO LIFE. You seem to have no problem circumventing this right by giving in to temporary circumstances the mother may be in.


Indeed, the Nazis kept some of their prisoners "alive". See, I can obfuscate too. ;)

As Wisp mentioned, we are also talking about the quality of life. Sure, the mother could go through with the birth. But most of those births couldn't be kept legally with the mother as they couldn't provide for the child. And to pack them all up in Orphanages and foster homes is quite less than ideal, many of those kids will suffer severe depression, social retardation and mental retardation where they would not suffer if they grew up in a normal household setting. Not to mention the system will be further strained with your policy of cutting taxes and social programs, giving them further crappy lives.

I can understand the position that abortions are always wrong unless it is for the mother's life, rape or incest. But if you are going to take that position, the only humane thing I can think of is to accept parallel with that, a system in place so that these children do not suffer needlessly. So, please tell us what you would do or have these women do to improve the lives of the unborn children?

What if the mother is in a bad circumstance a week after the baby is born? Is this much different? Where again, exactly do YOU as a person draw the line?


What line? I think I've said repeatedly that I think abortions are bad. Again, we draw lines for legal and practical purposes. If a child is born and it's parents or friends/family cannot take care of it the child is now a ward of the state; it will go to an orphanage or foster care. Unfortunately we cannot take a fetus out of a mother and place it in an orphanage, so a different set of protocol must be in place.


-------
"So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets." - Jesus (Matthew 7:12)
 


Posts: 550 | Posted: 8:51 PM on October 4, 2010 | IP
wisp

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There are lots of nasty stuff that i don't feel like banning.

I think "educating" children into YECism is worse than aborting embryos. I see a more serious moral concern there. And yet i'm not for the ban.



-------
Quote from Lester10 at 2:51 PM on September 21, 2010 in the thread
Scientists assert (by Lester):

Ha Ha. (...) I've told you people endlessly about my evidence but you don't want to show me yours - you just assert.
porkchop
Would we see a mammal by the water's edge "suddenly" start breathing underwater(w/camera effect of course)?
Contact me at youdebate.1wr@gishpuppy.com
 


Posts: 3037 | Posted: 9:05 PM on October 4, 2010 | IP
wisp

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You know what would be really cool? To produce a human-chimp hybrid embryo, and then asking creationists what should we do with it.


-------
Quote from Lester10 at 2:51 PM on September 21, 2010 in the thread
Scientists assert (by Lester):

Ha Ha. (...) I've told you people endlessly about my evidence but you don't want to show me yours - you just assert.
porkchop
Would we see a mammal by the water's edge "suddenly" start breathing underwater(w/camera effect of course)?
Contact me at youdebate.1wr@gishpuppy.com
 


Posts: 3037 | Posted: 4:39 PM on October 5, 2010 | IP
porkchop

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Quote from Fencer27 at 11:51 PM on October 4, 2010 :
Quote from porkchop at 8:12 PM on October 4, 2010 :
You are comparing the drinking age to that of a life of a human baby that is to be snuffed out?


No, just to reiterate Wisp's salient point, we are comparing making a time limit with making another time limit for legal purposes. There is no essential difference from one second to the next, however we must make these checkpoints of sorts for practical purposes. We do the same thing with drivers licenses, going into kindergarten, voting for public office, smoking cigarettes, running for public office, legally having a job and so on.

You have no problem demarcating a second when it means the life of a human being. Well since animals evolved and we did too and animals kill each other, why not us humans kill each other as well.


Sometimes you have to make hard decisions. It isn't easy (I've heard stories from marines on how they had to gun down their own men to secure the lives of everyone else), but sometimes you just have to make sacrifices. The Neanderthals practiced infanticide because (similarly) they simply could not care for those infants and doing so would endanger the entire clan.

But since you mention consequences women find themselves in IE lifestyle, current situation etc, which are temporary, but killing a baby is forever, let me ask you what is the most basic fundamental right any human can possibly have? It's the RIGHT TO LIFE. You seem to have no problem circumventing this right by giving in to temporary circumstances the mother may be in.


Indeed, the Nazis kept some of their prisoners "alive". See, I can obfuscate too. ;)

As Wisp mentioned, we are also talking about the quality of life. Sure, the mother could go through with the birth. But most of those births couldn't be kept legally with the mother as they couldn't provide for the child. And to pack them all up in Orphanages and foster homes is quite less than ideal, many of those kids will suffer severe depression, social retardation and mental retardation where they would not suffer if they grew up in a normal household setting. Not to mention the system will be further strained with your policy of cutting taxes and social programs, giving them further crappy lives.

I can understand the position that abortions are always wrong unless it is for the mother's life, rape or incest. But if you are going to take that position, the only humane thing I can think of is to accept parallel with that, a system in place so that these children do not suffer needlessly. So, please tell us what you would do or have these women do to improve the lives of the unborn children?

What if the mother is in a bad circumstance a week after the baby is born? Is this much different? Where again, exactly do YOU as a person draw the line?


What line? I think I've said repeatedly that I think abortions are bad. Again, we draw lines for legal and practical purposes. If a child is born and it's parents or friends/family cannot take care of it the child is now a ward of the state; it will go to an orphanage or foster care. Unfortunately we cannot take a fetus out of a mother and place it in an orphanage, so a different set of protocol must be in place.


I am noticing a lot of "what if" scenarios. This is a way to ignore the direct question being presented which is to the effect that , again, at what point exactly do you NOT kill/abort the human baby? You said one second really is meaningless so how about 2 seconds before the 3rd trimester? Is your conscious at play here? All decisions are final!



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He who assumes he has gained the world merely through his 5 senses and who loses faith, loses all
 


Posts: 434 | Posted: 5:05 PM on October 5, 2010 | IP
wisp

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I am noticing a lot of "what if" scenarios.
I'm noticing a lot of quoting things you won't respond to.
This is a way to ignore the direct question being presented which is to the effect that , again, at what point exactly do you NOT kill/abort the human baby?
At some informed but partially arbitrary point decided by legislators.

Let's say 18 weeks.

You said one second really is meaningless so how about 2 seconds before the 3rd trimester? Is your conscious at play here? All decisions are final!

You're not allowed to name colors anymore. They don't exist. Just a fine gradient. You're not allowed to say that red is safer when handling some photosensitive material.

You just can't. Right? Because, hey, were can you draw the line?



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Quote from Lester10 at 2:51 PM on September 21, 2010 in the thread
Scientists assert (by Lester):

Ha Ha. (...) I've told you people endlessly about my evidence but you don't want to show me yours - you just assert.
porkchop
Would we see a mammal by the water's edge "suddenly" start breathing underwater(w/camera effect of course)?
Contact me at youdebate.1wr@gishpuppy.com
 


Posts: 3037 | Posted: 5:55 PM on October 5, 2010 | IP
wisp

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By the way... Where would you draw the line in this fine gradient?



-------
Quote from Lester10 at 2:51 PM on September 21, 2010 in the thread
Scientists assert (by Lester):

Ha Ha. (...) I've told you people endlessly about my evidence but you don't want to show me yours - you just assert.
porkchop
Would we see a mammal by the water's edge "suddenly" start breathing underwater(w/camera effect of course)?
Contact me at youdebate.1wr@gishpuppy.com
 


Posts: 3037 | Posted: 5:58 PM on October 5, 2010 | IP
Fencer27

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Quote from porkchop at 8:05 PM on October 5, 2010 :
I am noticing a lot of "what if" scenarios. This is a way to ignore the direct question being presented which is to the effect that , again, at what point exactly do you NOT kill/abort the human baby? You said one second really is meaningless so how about 2 seconds before the 3rd trimester? Is your conscious at play here? All decisions are final!


Can you please try to understand what we are saying? I assure you, it isn't rocket science or trying to conform the standard model to account for apparent atmospheric neutrino oscillations and discrepancies.

There is no set date, no matter how many times you ask for it. Do you understand when we talk about the "gradient"?


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"So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets." - Jesus (Matthew 7:12)
 


Posts: 550 | Posted: 6:45 PM on October 5, 2010 | IP
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Quote from Fencer27 at 9:45 PM on October 5, 2010 :
Quote from porkchop at 8:05 PM on October 5, 2010 :
I am noticing a lot of "what if" scenarios. This is a way to ignore the direct question being presented which is to the effect that , again, at what point exactly do you NOT kill/abort the human baby? You said one second really is meaningless so how about 2 seconds before the 3rd trimester? Is your conscious at play here? All decisions are final!


Can you please try to understand what we are saying? I assure you, it isn't rocket science or trying to conform the standard model to account for apparent atmospheric neutrino oscillations and discrepancies.

There is no set date, no matter how many times you ask for it. Do you understand when we talk about the "gradient"?


Of course there is a set date, it's a date you pro abortionists do not want to deal with; the date of death. The gradient you speak of is of no consequence because at the moment you choose to "end" the life of a baby, you are doing just that without regard for the most fundamental right;the right to life. What gives you the right to kill a preborn human at some arbitrary moment in time? I still wish to know what arbitrary moment you personally choose.




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He who assumes he has gained the world merely through his 5 senses and who loses faith, loses all
 


Posts: 434 | Posted: 3:50 PM on October 6, 2010 | IP
Fencer27

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Quote from porkchop at 6:50 PM on October 6, 2010 :
Of course there is a set date, it's a date you pro abortionists do not want to deal with; the date of death.


Why do you use the term "pro abortionists"? I've stated many times that no one hear likes abortions or wants to see them continued. I've tried multiple times to have a conversation with you on how we should reduce the number of abortions as that is something we all want to see happen. Which you dutifully ignored to respond to or acknowledge.

How many times do I have to tell you that there is no "set date"? Exactly what parameters are you talking about? Is it okay to abort a baby when the mother is 20 weeks pregnant (I don't think any baby has survived less than 22 weeks) if the mother will die otherwise? How about at 22 weeks? What about 24 weeks (this is when it is usually considered 'safe' for the baby)? What about 2 days before 22 weeks? What about 3 days before week 24?

The gradient you speak of is of no consequence because at the moment you choose to "end" the life of a baby, you are doing just that without regard for the most fundamental right;the right to life. What gives you the right to kill a preborn human at some arbitrary moment in time? I still wish to know what arbitrary moment you personally choose.


Again, I don't have an arbitrary moment, I don't think it does justice to the issue to make a hard and fast rule that everyone has to live by. I think this is something that should be between the parents and their doctors.


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"So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets." - Jesus (Matthew 7:12)
 


Posts: 550 | Posted: 5:08 PM on October 6, 2010 | IP
orion

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Hi Fencer.  I don't think Porkchop wants to, or knows how to, have an intelligent discussion of any of the issues.  All he ever does is to repeatedly ask the same question over and over again.  You'll notice that he simply ignores discussing any other issues related to the subject - such as:

- What can be done to reduce the number of abortions?  Can we provide teens with freer access to birth control options & education?

- What can be done to improve sex education?  I have an aquaintance who I used to work with who vigorously opposes sex education in our schools.  He believes that subject is the responsibility of the parents.  He is also a religious fundamentalist.  He is also very naive about many social issues.  He is so afraid that some 'liberal' teacher is going to infuse his child with immoral behavior/ideas.

- I hardly think that many 14, 15, 16, 17-year olds are ready to raise a baby.  This is a topic that Porkchop continues to ignore.  Why?

- An embryo is NOT a baby.  True, it can become a fetus (considered to begin at the end of the 8th week after conception) if allowed to develop.  However, there are  thousands of embryos that get discarded at fertility clinics every year.  

As Fencer and Wisp have said numerous times, no one likes abortion.  It is should NOT be considered a form of birth control.  But what do you do if a 15-year old girl gets pregnant?  What are her choices?  Should her whole future be ruined by one impetuous act?  

We live in an age where women do have a choice for some control of their future that wasn't available to them in the past.  This includes choices related to reproduction and family rearing.  Men have always had much more freedom in this area than women have.  Now the playing field is becoming more even in some respects.

But Porkchop doesn't seem capable of discussing any of these other issues.

(Edited by orion 10/6/2010 at 6:18 PM).
 


Posts: 1458 | Posted: 6:13 PM on October 6, 2010 | IP
Lester10

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I think the whole point being made here by Porkchop (correct me if I'm wrong PC) is that a belief that God created us gives us moral parameters that are not up to personal opinions.
Murder is wrong -there are no excuses. You may have lots of 'good' reasons for doing what you do but if there's a standard to judge your behaviour by, then it isn't left in the hands of selfish men to decide.

What seems to be going on here is justification of murder - but then that is what is being taught in schools all over the world  - relative morality.

'What's right for me might not be right for you. '

Theft is not wrong if you're hungry and somebody else has more food than you.

If I don't have TV and you have two, why shouldn't I have one of yours?

Should we kill off old people that have reached their sell by date (according to whoever's in charge?) How old must they be in order for your conscience not to be bothered.  

Should paedophilia be allowed under certain circumstances where it may be advantageous to the family as a whole?

All of this is a consequence of believing in a theory called evolution because, after all, who is more evolved? Who deserves to live? Should plants and trees be preserved while people are murdered? Plants and trees might well be more useful after all, if you're an evolutionist.

The difference between Christianity and evolution is that morality has to be relative with evolution. Since there's nobody to say 'thou shalt not',it's all up to us. It was up to the communists in Russia and China to decide who lives and who dies - after all God didn't exist, did he?

I'm not saying Christianity can make it all right as anyone can see just by reading the Bible. People do what's wrong all the time but at least they know where the boundaries are and if they cross them, they know and they can't make relative morality excuses when they know.

Evolution has put us on a long slippery slope and that would just be too bad if evolution was true. If its not and you're just busily ignoring the contradictions for the preservation of your religion, then you are the the brainwashing perpetrators of a religion of destruction and you will be held accountable.




-------
Richard Lewontin: “We take the side of science in spite of the patent absurdity of some of its constructs in spite of the tolerance of the scientific community for unsubstantiated just-so stories, because we have a prior commitment, a commitment to materialism... no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is an absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door”
 


Posts: 1554 | Posted: 06:45 AM on October 7, 2010 | IP
wisp

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Quote from Lester10 at 12:45 PM on October 7, 2010 :
I think the whole point being made here by Porkchop (correct me if I'm wrong PC) is that a belief that God created us gives us moral parameters that are not up to personal opinions.
When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished.  If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property.  (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)
Murder is wrong -there are no excuses.
1) Capital Punishment Crimes:



Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests

   Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death.  Such evil must be purged from Israel.  (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)



Kill Witches

   You should not let a sorceress live.  (Exodus 22:17 NAB)



Kill Homosexuals
   "If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives."  (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)



Kill Fortunetellers

   A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death.  (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)



Death for Hitting Dad

   Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death.  (Exodus 21:15 NAB)



Death for Cursing Parents

   1) If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness.  (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)

   2) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death.  They are guilty of a capital offense.  (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)



Death for Adultery

   If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death.  (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)



Death for Fornication

   A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death.  (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)



Death to Followers of Other Religions

   Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed.  (Exodus 22:19 NAB)



Kill Nonbelievers

   They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.  (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)



Kill False Prophets

   If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord."  When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through.  (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)



Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God

   Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods.  In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully.  If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock.  Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it.  Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God.  That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt.  Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction.  Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you.  He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors.  "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him."  (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)



Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night

   But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house.  Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst.  (Deuteronomy  22:20-21 NAB)



Kill Followers of Other Religions.

   1) If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him.  Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you.  You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery.  And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst.  (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)



   2) Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden.  When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death.  (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)



Death for Blasphemy

   One day a man who had an Israelite mother and an Egyptian father got into a fight with one of the Israelite men.  During the fight, this son of an Israelite woman blasphemed the LORD's name.  So the man was brought to Moses for judgment.  His mother's name was Shelomith. She was the daughter of Dibri of the tribe of Dan.  They put the man in custody until the LORD's will in the matter should become clear.  Then the LORD said to Moses, "Take the blasphemer outside the camp, and tell all those who heard him to lay their hands on his head.  Then let the entire community stone him to death.  Say to the people of Israel: Those who blaspheme God will suffer the consequences of their guilt and be punished.  Anyone who blasphemes the LORD's name must be stoned to death by the whole community of Israel.  Any Israelite or foreigner among you who blasphemes the LORD's name will surely die.  (Leviticus 24:10-16 NLT)



Kill False Prophets

   1) Suppose there are prophets among you, or those who have dreams about the future, and they promise you signs or miracles,  and the predicted signs or miracles take place.  If the prophets then say, 'Come, let us worship the gods of foreign nations,' do not listen to them.  The LORD your God is testing you to see if you love him with all your heart and soul.  Serve only the LORD your God and fear him alone.  Obey his commands, listen to his voice, and cling to him.  The false prophets or dreamers who try to lead you astray must be put to death, for they encourage rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of slavery in the land of Egypt.  Since they try to keep you from following the LORD your God, you must execute them to remove the evil from among you.  (Deuteronomy 13:1-5 NLT)



   2) But any prophet who claims to give a message from another god or who falsely claims to speak for me must die.'  You may wonder, 'How will we know whether the prophecy is from the LORD or not?'  If the prophet predicts something in the LORD's name and it does not happen, the LORD did not give the message.  That prophet has spoken on his own and need not be feared.  (Deuteronomy 18:20-22 NLT)



Infidels and Gays Should Die

   So God let them go ahead and do whatever shameful things their hearts desired.  As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other's bodies.  Instead of believing what they knew was the truth about God, they deliberately chose to believe lies.  So they worshiped the things God made but not the Creator himself, who is to be praised forever.  Amen.  That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires.  Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other.  And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other.  Men did shameful things with other men and, as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved.  When they refused to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their evil minds and let them do things that should never be done.  Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, fighting, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip.  They are backstabbers, haters of God, insolent, proud, and boastful.  They are forever inventing new ways of sinning and are disobedient to their parents.  They refuse to understand, break their promises, and are heartless and unforgiving.  They are fully aware of God's death penalty for those who do these things, yet they go right ahead and do them anyway.  And, worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too.  (Romans 1:24-32 NLT)



Kill Anyone who Approaches the Tabernacle

   For the LORD had said to Moses, 'Exempt the tribe of Levi from the census; do not include them when you count the rest of the Israelites.  You must put the Levites in charge of the Tabernacle of the Covenant, along with its furnishings and equipment.  They must carry the Tabernacle and its equipment as you travel, and they must care for it and camp around it.  Whenever the Tabernacle is moved, the Levites will take it down and set it up again.  Anyone else who goes too near the Tabernacle will be executed.'  (Numbers 1:48-51 NLT)



Kill People for Working on the Sabbath

   The LORD then gave these further instructions to Moses: 'Tell the people of Israel to keep my Sabbath day, for the Sabbath is a sign of the covenant between me and you forever.  It helps you to remember that I am the LORD, who makes you holy.  Yes, keep the Sabbath day, for it is holy.  Anyone who desecrates it must die; anyone who works on that day will be cut off from the community.  Work six days only, but the seventh day must be a day of total rest.  I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death.'  (Exodus 31:12-15 NLT)





2) God's Murders for Stupid Reasons:



Kill Brats

   From there Elisha went up to Bethel.  While he was on his way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him.  "Go up baldhead," they shouted, "go up baldhead!"  The prophet turned and saw them, and he cursed them in the name of the Lord.  Then two shebears came out of the woods and tore forty two of the children to pieces.  (2 Kings 2:23-24 NAB)



God Kills the Curious

   And he smote of the men of Beth-shemesh, because they had looked into the ark of Jehovah, he smote of the people seventy men, `and' fifty thousand men; and the people mourned, because Jehovah had smitten the people with a great slaughter.  And the men of Beth-shemesh said, Who is able to stand before Jehovah, this holy God? and to whom shall he go up from us?   (1Samuel 6:19-20 ASV)



Killed by a Lion

   Meanwhile, the LORD instructed one of the group of prophets to say to another man, "Strike me!"  But the man refused to strike the prophet.  Then the prophet told him, "Because you have not obeyed the voice of the LORD, a lion will kill you as soon as you leave me."  And sure enough, when he had gone, a lion attacked and killed him.  (1 Kings 20:35-36 NLT)



Killing the Good Samaritan

   The ark of God was placed on a new cart and taken away from the house of Abinadab on the hill.  Uzzah and Ahio, sons of Abinadab guided the cart, with Ahio walking before it, while David and all the Israelites made merry before the Lord with all their strength, with singing and with citharas, harps, tambourines, sistrums, and cymbals.

   When they came to the threshing floor of Nodan, Uzzah reached out his hand to the ark of God to steady it, for the oxen were making it tip.  But the Lord was angry with Uzzah; God struck him on that spot, and he died there before God.  (2 Samuel 6:3-7 NAB)





3) Murdering Children



Kill Sons of Sinners

   Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants.  (Isaiah 14:21 NAB)



God Will Kill Children

   The glory of Israel will fly away like a bird, for your children will die at birth or perish in the womb or never even be conceived.  Even if your children do survive to grow up, I will take them from you.  It will be a terrible day when I turn away and leave you alone.  I have watched Israel become as beautiful and pleasant as Tyre.  But now Israel will bring out her children to be slaughtered."  O LORD, what should I request for your people?  I will ask for wombs that don't give birth and breasts that give no milk.  The LORD says, "All their wickedness began at Gilgal; there I began to hate them.  I will drive them from my land because of their evil actions.  I will love them no more because all their leaders are rebels.  The people of Israel are stricken.  Their roots are dried up; they will bear no more fruit.  And if they give birth, I will slaughter their beloved children."  (Hosea 9:11-16 NLT)



Kill Men, Women, and Children

   "Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked.  Show no mercy; have no pity!  Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children.  But do not touch anyone with the mark.  Begin your task right here at the Temple."  So they began by killing the seventy leaders.  "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded.  "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill!  Go!"  So they went throughout the city and did as they were told."  (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)



God Kills all the First Born of Egypt

   And at midnight the LORD killed all the firstborn sons in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn son of the captive in the dungeon. Even the firstborn of their livestock were killed.  Pharaoh and his officials and all the people of Egypt woke up during the night, and loud wailing was heard throughout the land of Egypt. There was not a single house where someone had not died.  (Exodus 12:29-30 NLT)



Kill Old Men and Young Women

   "You are my battle-ax and sword," says the LORD.  "With you I will shatter nations and destroy many kingdoms.  With you I will shatter armies, destroying the horse and rider, the chariot and charioteer.  With you I will shatter men and women, old people and children, young men and maidens.  With you I will shatter shepherds and flocks, farmers and oxen, captains and rulers.  "As you watch, I will repay Babylon and the people of Babylonia for all the wrong they have done to my people in Jerusalem," says the LORD.  "Look, O mighty mountain, destroyer of the earth!  I am your enemy," says the LORD.  "I will raise my fist against you, to roll you down from the heights.  When I am finished, you will be nothing but a heap of rubble.  You will be desolate forever.  Even your stones will never again be used for building.  You will be completely wiped out," says the LORD.  (Jeremiah 51:20-26)

    (Note that after God promises the Israelites a victory against Babylon, the Israelites actually get their butts kicked by them in the next chapter.  So much for an all-knowing and all-powerful God.)



God Will Kill the Children of Sinners

   If even then you remain hostile toward me and refuse to obey, I will inflict you with seven more disasters for your sins.  I will release wild animals that will kill your children and destroy your cattle, so your numbers will dwindle and your roads will be deserted.  (Leviticus 26:21-22 NLT)



More Rape and Baby Killing

   Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword.  Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes.  Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes.  For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off.  The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows.  They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children.  (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)





4) Miscellaneous Murders



More of Samson's Murders

   (The Lord saves Sampson from standing trial for 30 murders and arson by allowing him to kill 1000 more men.)  When he reached Lehi, and the Philistines came shouting to meet him, the spirit of the Lord came upon him: the ropes around his arms become as flax that is consumed by fire and the bonds melted away from his hands.  Near him was the fresh jawbone of an ass; he reached out, grasped it, and with it killed a thousand men.  (Judges 15:14-15 NAB)



Peter Kills Two People

   There was also a man named Ananias who, with his wife, Sapphira, sold some property.  He brought part of the money to the apostles, but he claimed it was the full amount.  His wife had agreed to this deception.  Then Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart?  You lied to the Holy Spirit, and you kept some of the money for yourself.  The property was yours to sell or not sell, as you wished.  And after selling it, the money was yours to give away.  How could you do a thing like this?  You weren't lying to us but to God."  As soon as Ananias heard these words, he fell to the floor and died.  Everyone who heard about it was terrified.  Then some young men wrapped him in a sheet and took him out and buried him.  About three hours later his wife came in, not knowing what had happened.  Peter asked her, "Was this the price you and your husband received for your land?"  "Yes," she replied, "that was the price."  And Peter said, "How could the two of you even think of doing a thing like this – conspiring together to test the Spirit of the Lord?  Just outside that door are the young men who buried your husband, and they will carry you out, too."  Instantly, she fell to the floor and died.  When the young men came in and saw that she was dead, they carried her out and buried her beside her husband.  Great fear gripped the entire church and all others who heard what had happened.   (Acts 5:1-11 NLT)



Mass Murder

   This is what the Lord of  hosts has to say: 'I will punish what Amalek did to Israel when he barred his way as he was coming up from Egypt.  Go, now, attack Amalek, and deal with him and all that he has under the ban.  Do not spare him, but kill men and women, children and infants, oxen and sheep, camels and asses.'   (1 Samuel 15:2-3 NAB)



You Have to Kill

   Cursed be he who does the Lords work remissly, cursed he who holds back his sword from blood.  (Jeremiah 48:10 NAB)



The Danites Kill the Next Town

   But the territory of the Danites was too small for them; so the Danites marched up and attacked Leshem, which they captured and put to the sword.  Once they had taken possession of Lesham, they renamed the settlement after their ancestor Dan.  (Joshua 19:47 NAB)



God Kills Some More

   Then the LORD said to me, "Even if Moses and Samuel stood before me pleading for these people, I wouldn't help them.  Away with them!  Get them out of my sight!  And if they say to you, 'But where can we go?' tell them, 'This is what the LORD says: Those who are destined for death, to death; those who are destined for war, to war; those who are destined for famine, to famine; those who are destined for captivity, to captivity.'  "I will send four kinds of destroyers against them," says the LORD.  "I will send the sword to kill, the dogs to drag away, the vultures to devour, and the wild animals to finish up what is left.  Because of the wicked things Manasseh son of Hezekiah, king of Judah, did in Jerusalem, I will make my people an object of horror to all the kingdoms of the earth."  (Jeremiah 15:1-4 NLT)



God Promises More Killing

   I will make Mount Seir utterly desolate, killing off all who try to escape and any who return.  I will fill your mountains with the dead. Your hills, your valleys, and your streams will be filled with people slaughtered by the sword.  I will make you desolate forever. Your cities will never be rebuilt. Then you will know that I am the LORD.  (Ezekiel 35:7-9 NLT)



The Angel of Death

   My angel will go before you and bring you to the Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Canaanites, Hivites, and Jebusites; and I will wipe them out.  (Exodus 23:23 NAB)



Destruction of Ai

   Then the LORD said to Joshua, "Do not be afraid or discouraged.  Take the entire army and attack Ai, for I have given to you the king of Ai, his people, his city, and his land.  You will destroy them as you destroyed Jericho and its king. But this time you may keep the captured goods and the cattle for yourselves. Set an ambush behind the city."  So Joshua and the army of Israel set out to attack Ai.  Joshua chose thirty thousand fighting men and sent them out at night with these orders: "Hide in ambush close behind the city and be ready for action.  When our main army attacks, the men of Ai will come out to fight as they did before, and we will run away from them.  We will let them chase us until they have all left the city. For they will say, 'The Israelites are running away from us as they did before.'  Then you will jump up from your ambush and take possession of the city, for the LORD your God will give it to you.  Set the city on fire, as the LORD has commanded.  You have your orders."  So they left that night and lay in ambush between Bethel and the west side of Ai.  But Joshua remained among the people in the camp that night.

   Early the next morning Joshua roused his men and started toward Ai, accompanied by the leaders of Israel.  They camped on the north side of Ai, with a valley between them and the city.  That night Joshua sent five thousand men to lie in ambush between Bethel and Ai, on the west side of the city.  So they stationed the main army north of the city and the ambush west of the city.  Joshua himself spent that night in the valley.  When the king of Ai saw the Israelites across the valley, he and all his army hurriedly went out early the next morning and attacked the Israelites at a place overlooking the Jordan Valley.  But he didn't realize there was an ambush behind the city.  Joshua and the Israelite army fled toward the wilderness as though they were badly beaten,  and all the men in the city were called out to chase after them.  In this way, they were lured away from the city.  There was not a man left in Ai or Bethel who did not chase after the Israelites, and the city was left wide open.

   Then the LORD said to Joshua, "Point your spear toward Ai, for I will give you the city."  Joshua did as he was commanded.  As soon as Joshua gave the signal, the men in ambush jumped up and poured into the city.  They quickly captured it and set it on fire.  When the men of Ai looked behind them, smoke from the city was filling the sky, and they had nowhere to go. For the Israelites who had fled in the direction of the wilderness now turned on their pursuers.  When Joshua and the other Israelites saw that the ambush had succeeded and that smoke was rising from the city, they turned and attacked the men of Ai.  Then the Israelites who were inside the city came out and started killing the enemy from the rear. So the men of Ai were caught in a trap, and all of them died. Not a single person survived or escaped.  Only the king of Ai was taken alive and brought to Joshua.

   When the Israelite army finished killing all the men outside the city, they went back and finished off everyone inside.  So the entire population of Ai was wiped out that day – twelve thousand in all.  For Joshua kept holding out his spear until everyone who had lived in Ai was completely destroyed.  Only the cattle and the treasures of the city were not destroyed, for the Israelites kept these for themselves, as the LORD had commanded Joshua.  So Ai became a permanent mound of ruins, desolate to this very day.  Joshua hung the king of Ai on a tree and left him there until evening. At sunset the Israelites took down the body and threw it in front of the city gate.  They piled a great heap of stones over him that can still be seen today.  (Joshua 8:1-29 NLT)



Killing at Jericho

   When the people heard the sound of the horns, they shouted as loud as they could. Suddenly, the walls of Jericho collapsed, and the Israelites charged straight into the city from every side and captured it.  They completely destroyed everything in it – men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep, donkeys – everything.  (Joshua 6:20-21 NLT)



God Kills an Extended Family

   "You have done more evil than all who lived before you.  You have made other gods and have made me furious with your gold calves.  And since you have turned your back on me, I will bring disaster on your dynasty and kill all your sons, slave or free alike.  I will burn up your royal dynasty as one burns up trash until it is all gone.  I, the LORD, vow that the members of your family who die in the city will be eaten by dogs, and those who die in the field will be eaten by vultures.'"  Then Ahijah said to Jeroboam's wife, "Go on home, and when you enter the city, the child will die.  All Israel will mourn for him and bury him.  He is the only member of your family who will have a proper burial, for this child is the only good thing that the LORD, the God of Israel, sees in the entire family of Jeroboam.  And the LORD will raise up a king over Israel who will destroy the family of Jeroboam.  This will happen today, even now!  Then the LORD will shake Israel like a reed whipped about in a stream.  He will uproot the people of Israel from this good land that he gave their ancestors and will scatter them beyond the Euphrates River, for they have angered the LORD by worshiping Asherah poles.  He will abandon Israel because Jeroboam sinned and made all of Israel sin along with him."  (1 Kings 14:9-16 NLT)



Mass Murder

   The men of Israel withdrew through the territory of the Benjaminites, putting to the sword the inhabitants of the city, the livestock, and all they chanced upon.  Moreover they destroyed by fire all the cities they came upon.  (Judges 20:48 NAB)



The Angel of Death

   That night the angel of the Lord went forth and struck down one hundred and eighty five thousand men in the Assyrian camp.  Early the next morning, there they were, all the corpuses of the dead.  (2 Kings 19:35 NAB)



Kill Your Neighbors

   (Moses) stood at the entrance to the camp and shouted, "All of you who are on the LORD's side, come over here and join me." And all the Levites came.  He told them, "This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: Strap on your swords! Go back and forth from one end of the camp to the other, killing even your brothers, friends, and neighbors."  The Levites obeyed Moses, and about three thousand people died that day.  Then Moses told the Levites, "Today you have been ordained for the service of the LORD, for you obeyed him even though it meant killing your own sons and brothers. Because of this, he will now give you a great blessing."  (Exodus 32:26-29 NLT)



Kill the Family of Sinners

   And Joshua said to Achan, My son, give, I pray thee, glory to the LORD God of Israel, and make confession to him; and tell me now what thou hast done, hide it not from me.  And Achan answered Joshua, and said, Indeed I have sinned against the LORD God of Israel, and thus and thus have I done.  When I saw among the spoils a goodly Babylonish garment, and two hundred shekels of silver, and a wedge of gold of fifty shekels weight, then I coveted them, and took them, and behold, they are hid in the earth in the midst of my tent, and the silver under it."  [Note that the sin is not looting, but failing to give the loot to the treasury of the Lord.]  "So Joshua sent messengers, and they ran to the tent, and behold, it was hid in his tent, and the silver under it.  And they took them from the midst of the tent, and brought them to Joshua, and to all the children of Israel, and laid them out before the LORD.  And Joshua, and all Israel with him, took Achan the son of Zerah, and the silver, and the garment, and the wedge of gold, and his sons, and his daughters, and his oxen, and his asses, and his sheep, and his tent, and all that he had: and they brought them to the valley of Achor.  And Joshua said, why hast thou troubled us?  the LORD shall trouble thee this day.  And all Israel stoned him with stones, and burned them with fire, after they had stoned them with stones.  And they raised over him a great heap of stones to this day.  So the LORD turned from the fierceness of his anger: wherefore the name of that place was called the valley of Achor to this day.  (Joshua 7:19-26 Webster's Bible)



Kill Followers of Other Religions

   While the Israelites were camped at Acacia, some of the men defiled themselves by sleeping with the local Moabite women.  These women invited them to attend sacrifices to their gods, and soon the Israelites were feasting with them and worshiping the gods of Moab.  Before long Israel was joining in the worship of Baal of Peor, causing the LORD's anger to blaze against his people.  The LORD issued the following command to Moses: "Seize all the ringleaders and execute them before the LORD in broad daylight, so his fierce anger will turn away from the people of Israel."  So Moses ordered Israel's judges to execute everyone who had joined in worshiping Baal of Peor.  Just then one of the Israelite men brought a Midianite woman into the camp, right before the eyes of Moses and all the people, as they were weeping at the entrance of the Tabernacle.  When Phinehas son of Eleazar and grandson of Aaron the priest saw this, he jumped up and left the assembly.  Then he took a spear and rushed after the man into his tent. Phinehas thrust the spear all the way through the man's body and into the woman's stomach.  So the plague against the Israelites was stopped, but not before 24,000 people had died.  (Numbers 25:1-9 NLT)



Murder

   At the customary time for offering the evening sacrifice, Elijah the prophet walked up to the altar and prayed, "O LORD, God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, prove today that you are God in Israel and that I am your servant. Prove that I have done all this at your command.  O LORD, answer me! Answer me so these people will know that you, O LORD, are God and that you have brought them back to yourself."  Immediately the fire of the LORD flashed down from heaven and burned up the young bull, the wood, the stones, and the dust.  It even licked up all the water in the ditch!  And when the people saw it, they fell on their faces and cried out, "The LORD is God!  The LORD is God!"  Then Elijah commanded, "Seize all the prophets of Baal.  Don't let a single one escape!"  So the people seized them all, and Elijah took them down to the Kishon Valley and killed them there.  (1 Kings 18:36-40 NLT)



Kill All of Babylon

   "Go up, my warriors, against the land of Merathaim and against the people of Pekod. Yes, march against Babylon, the land of rebels, a land that I will judge!  Pursue, kill, and completely destroy them, as I have commanded you," says the LORD.  "Let the battle cry be heard in the land, a shout of great destruction".   (Jeremiah 50:21-22 NLT)



Micah Kills a Whole Town

   Then, with Micah's idols and his priest, the men of Dan came to the town of Laish, whose people were peaceful and secure.  They attacked and killed all the people and burned the town to the ground.  There was no one to rescue the residents of the town, for they lived a great distance from Sidon and had no allies nearby.  This happened in the valley near Beth-rehob.Then the people of the tribe of Dan rebuilt the town and lived there.  They renamed the town Dan after their ancestor, Israel's son, but it had originally been called Laish.  (Judges 18:27-29 NLT)  (Note that God approves of this slaughter in verse 6.)
You may have lots of 'good' reasons for doing what you do but if there's a standard to judge your behaviour by, then it isn't left in the hands of selfish men to decide.
Er... And who else is going to decide anything?
What seems to be going on here is justification of murder - but then that is what is being taught in schools all over the world  - relative morality.
What absolute morality would you propose?

The Bible?

Theft is not wrong if you're hungry and somebody else has more food than you.
What about lies and cowardice? What about those?

Should we kill off old people that have reached their sell by date (according to whoever's in charge?) How old must they be in order for your conscience not to be bothered.
What about the animals you eat? How intelligent do they have to be for you to stop eating them?

Do you care about intelligence at all?

Should paedophilia be allowed under certain circumstances where it may be advantageous to the family as a whole?
Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp.  But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle.  "Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded.  "These are the very ones who followed Balaam's advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor.  They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD's people.  Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man.  Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.

All of this is a consequence of believing in a theory called evolution because, after all, who is more evolved?
No. Besides, that question can only be uttered in ignorance of the basic facts of evolution.

Evolution is change. So... Who is "more changed"?

Who deserves to live?
Israelites, according to your sacred book.

Should plants and trees be preserved while people are murdered?
Embryos are not people, no matter how dumb you are. And your god killed plenty of them, and fetuses, and kids, and adults.
Plants and trees might well be more useful after all, if you're an evolutionist.
I don't even know what that's supposed to mean. But i don't think it'll be something smart.

The difference between Christianity and evolution is that morality has to be relative with evolution.
HAS to be? As in SHOULD? As in ABSOLUTE MORALITY?

You're so very dumb...

Since there's nobody to say 'thou shalt not',it's all up to us.
Thou shalt stop being a dumb and coward liar, Lester.

Did it work?

Evolution has put us on a long slippery slope
You don't even try to hide your fallacy...
and that would just be too bad if evolution was true.
So this is not a factual issue for you. It's a political one. It's a moral one.

You can't handle the truth.

If its not and you're just busily ignoring the contradictions for the preservation of your religion,
Like the Tiktaalik's shoulders?
then you are the the brainwashing perpetrators of a religion of destruction and you will be held accountable.
Thou shalt stop babbling.



-------
Quote from Lester10 at 2:51 PM on September 21, 2010 in the thread
Scientists assert (by Lester):

Ha Ha. (...) I've told you people endlessly about my evidence but you don't want to show me yours - you just assert.
porkchop
Would we see a mammal by the water's edge "suddenly" start breathing underwater(w/camera effect of course)?
Contact me at youdebate.1wr@gishpuppy.com
 


Posts: 3037 | Posted: 12:31 PM on October 7, 2010 | IP
orion

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As Wisp has so abundantly pointed out in his post above, the Bible is hardly a good source of inspiration for morality!

(Edited by orion 10/7/2010 at 2:42 PM).
 


Posts: 1458 | Posted: 1:26 PM on October 7, 2010 | IP
Lester10

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Wisp
What about the animals you eat? How intelligent do they have to be for you to stop eating them?


Ha Ha -The animals were given to us for food Wisp. But if you're an evolutionist, you need to give them an IQ test before you can decide whether to eat them or not. Or maybe in Derwood's case, we'll set up a molecular tree and mark which branches we're allowed to eat.

Wisp
Embryos are not people, no matter how dumb you are.


Really? Or maybe they are people from the moment of conception. Giving them a different name according to a stage of development does not make them less human in God's eyes. He didn't send the angel to Mary to tell her she was 'with embryo' or  'with 'fetus'.

Lester
and that would just be too bad if evolution was true.
Wisp
So this is not a factual issue for you. It's a political one. It's a moral one.

You can't handle the truth.


Hmm -seems you quite missed my point there.



-------
Richard Lewontin: “We take the side of science in spite of the patent absurdity of some of its constructs in spite of the tolerance of the scientific community for unsubstantiated just-so stories, because we have a prior commitment, a commitment to materialism... no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is an absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door”
 


Posts: 1554 | Posted: 08:40 AM on October 8, 2010 | IP
porkchop

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I must ask this and take a step backwards.

Do you believe it is wrong to kill a human being and if so, why?




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He who assumes he has gained the world merely through his 5 senses and who loses faith, loses all
 


Posts: 434 | Posted: 6:15 PM on October 8, 2010 | IP
wisp

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It depends on what you mean by "kill", it depends on what you mean by "human being", it depends on what you mean by "wrong" and, of course, it depends on the circumstances.

(Edited by wisp 10/8/2010 at 8:30 PM).


-------
Quote from Lester10 at 2:51 PM on September 21, 2010 in the thread
Scientists assert (by Lester):

Ha Ha. (...) I've told you people endlessly about my evidence but you don't want to show me yours - you just assert.
porkchop
Would we see a mammal by the water's edge "suddenly" start breathing underwater(w/camera effect of course)?
Contact me at youdebate.1wr@gishpuppy.com
 


Posts: 3037 | Posted: 7:18 PM on October 8, 2010 | IP
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Opponents of abortion believe that the individual is destroying the innocent embryo's right to living. I wrote an article however from a pro-life point of view.  Read my article, "Should Abortion be Prohibited?" .  Tell me what you think.

You can read it at

http://www.suite101.com/content/should-abortion-be-prohibited-a284606


 


Posts: 3 | Posted: 4:26 PM on October 9, 2010 | IP
porkchop

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Quote from tasha1011 at 7:26 PM on October 9, 2010 :

Opponents of abortion believe that the individual is destroying the innocent embryo's right to living. I wrote an article however from a pro-life point of view.  Read my article, "Should Abortion be Prohibited?" .  Tell me what you think.

You can read it at

http://www.suite101.com/content/should-abortion-be-prohibited-a284606




Well you say you are pro-choice, does that mean pro choice for the baby?



-------
He who assumes he has gained the world merely through his 5 senses and who loses faith, loses all
 


Posts: 434 | Posted: 4:53 PM on October 12, 2010 | IP
porkchop

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Quote from wisp at 10:18 PM on October 8, 2010 :
It depends on what you mean by "kill", it depends on what you mean by "human being", it depends on what you mean by "wrong" and, of course, it depends on the circumstances.



Wisp, what do you think I mean by "kill"



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He who assumes he has gained the world merely through his 5 senses and who loses faith, loses all
 


Posts: 434 | Posted: 4:55 PM on October 12, 2010 | IP
wisp

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I bet you don't know yourself. Seriously.

I bet you try to be strict, but you'll be vague.


I tend to win my bets. If you try to define or describe it, i'll probably be able to show you how vague it is. I'll try to show you something that fits your vague definition or description, and you'll be forced to say "
Nono, but, but, I didn't mean that", or you'll get pissed and try to blame your vagueness on me.


-------
Quote from Lester10 at 2:51 PM on September 21, 2010 in the thread
Scientists assert (by Lester):

Ha Ha. (...) I've told you people endlessly about my evidence but you don't want to show me yours - you just assert.
porkchop
Would we see a mammal by the water's edge "suddenly" start breathing underwater(w/camera effect of course)?
Contact me at youdebate.1wr@gishpuppy.com
 


Posts: 3037 | Posted: 5:50 PM on October 12, 2010 | IP
porkchop

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Quote from wisp at 7:50 PM on October 12, 2010 :
I bet you don't know yourself. Seriously.

I bet you try to be strict, but you'll be vague.


I tend to win my bets. If you try to define or describe it, i'll probably be able to show you how vague it is. I'll try to show you something that fits your vague definition or description, and you'll be forced to say "
Nono, but, but, I didn't mean that", or you'll get pissed and try to blame your vagueness on me.



Was there an answer in there somewhere? Can you help me find it? Are you obfuscating again Wisp? Just answer the damn question.


-------
He who assumes he has gained the world merely through his 5 senses and who loses faith, loses all
 


Posts: 434 | Posted: 4:06 PM on October 13, 2010 | IP
wisp

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And the damn question is what i think about what you mean? Haha! Why don't you just say it?

I believe you mean something stupid and vague. Like "
taking away the life out of something that has life".

Did i answer now?



-------
Quote from Lester10 at 2:51 PM on September 21, 2010 in the thread
Scientists assert (by Lester):

Ha Ha. (...) I've told you people endlessly about my evidence but you don't want to show me yours - you just assert.
porkchop
Would we see a mammal by the water's edge "suddenly" start breathing underwater(w/camera effect of course)?
Contact me at youdebate.1wr@gishpuppy.com
 


Posts: 3037 | Posted: 4:15 PM on October 13, 2010 | IP
wisp

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Are you obfuscating again Wisp? Just answer the damn question.
Me, obfuscating what I believe about what you mean when you say "kill"...

Don't you realize how dumb that accusation is?

I said i bet you don't know yourself. So obviously i don't know. Because if you don't know, nobody else could. Because if you don't know what you mean, then you don't mean anything specific, so there's nothing for others to know.



-------
Quote from Lester10 at 2:51 PM on September 21, 2010 in the thread
Scientists assert (by Lester):

Ha Ha. (...) I've told you people endlessly about my evidence but you don't want to show me yours - you just assert.
porkchop
Would we see a mammal by the water's edge "suddenly" start breathing underwater(w/camera effect of course)?
Contact me at youdebate.1wr@gishpuppy.com
 


Posts: 3037 | Posted: 4:31 PM on October 13, 2010 | IP
wisp

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Lester
Embryos are not people, no matter how dumb you are.
Really? Or maybe they are people from the moment of conception.
"Or maybe" doesn't come anywhere close to an argument.

This, on the other hand, does:


Scientists say dolphins should be treated as 'non-human persons

Giving them a different name according to a stage of development does not make them less human in God's eyes.
That's true. When he gets all psycho killer he makes no distinctions. He pays a lot more attention to race, sex, virginity, nationality, religious beliefs, sexual orientation... But i thought we were talking about real things, not tribal deities.

And the subject isn't humanity, but if they're people or not.

He didn't send the angel to Mary to tell her she was 'with embryo' or  'with 'fetus'.
By that criterion grasshoppers are tetrapods, and bats are birds, and pi = 3.

I prefer Science.

and that would just be too bad if evolution was true.
So this is not a factual issue for you. It's a political one. It's a moral one.

You can't handle the truth.
Hmm -seems you quite missed my point there.


(Edited by wisp 10/13/2010 at 6:49 PM).


-------
Quote from Lester10 at 2:51 PM on September 21, 2010 in the thread
Scientists assert (by Lester):

Ha Ha. (...) I've told you people endlessly about my evidence but you don't want to show me yours - you just assert.
porkchop
Would we see a mammal by the water's edge "suddenly" start breathing underwater(w/camera effect of course)?
Contact me at youdebate.1wr@gishpuppy.com
 


Posts: 3037 | Posted: 6:37 PM on October 13, 2010 | IP
Fencer27

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PC,

Is it okay to abort a baby when the mother is 20 weeks pregnant (I don't think any baby has survived less than 22 weeks) if the mother will die otherwise? How about at 21 weeks? 22? 23? What about 24 weeks (this is when it is usually considered 'safe' for the baby)? What about 2 days before 22 weeks? What about 3 days, 2 days, 1 day, before week 24?

Where would you draw the line?


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"So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets." - Jesus (Matthew 7:12)
 


Posts: 550 | Posted: 10:27 AM on October 14, 2010 | IP
porkchop

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Quote from Fencer27 at 12:27 PM on October 14, 2010 :
PC,

Is it okay to abort a baby when the mother is 20 weeks pregnant (I don't think any baby has survived less than 22 weeks) if the mother will die otherwise? How about at 21 weeks? 22? 23? What about 24 weeks (this is when it is usually considered 'safe' for the baby)? What about 2 days before 22 weeks? What about 3 days, 2 days, 1 day, before week 24?

Where would you draw the line?


So if you do not know when to draw the line, you could be committing murder. If you draw the line after the baby is "viable", then that is murder. Point is, you do not know when it is but your "pro-choice" stance is not pro baby.



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He who assumes he has gained the world merely through his 5 senses and who loses faith, loses all
 


Posts: 434 | Posted: 4:10 PM on October 14, 2010 | IP
wisp

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So if you don't know where to place a tag, then the tag can be tagged where there should be another tag, and the mistagging itself could be tagged with an awful tag!

Don't you have anything besides words, porkchop?

Don't you care about intelligence or suffering?

The cells you kill by scratching arse are human too. Viable human arse cells.



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Quote from Lester10 at 2:51 PM on September 21, 2010 in the thread
Scientists assert (by Lester):

Ha Ha. (...) I've told you people endlessly about my evidence but you don't want to show me yours - you just assert.
porkchop
Would we see a mammal by the water's edge "suddenly" start breathing underwater(w/camera effect of course)?
Contact me at youdebate.1wr@gishpuppy.com
 


Posts: 3037 | Posted: 4:17 PM on October 14, 2010 | IP
porkchop

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Quote from wisp at 6:15 PM on October 13, 2010 :
And the damn question is what i think about what you mean? Haha! Why don't you just say it?

I believe you mean something stupid and vague. Like "
taking away the life out of something that has life".


Did i answer now?




How about killing something alive. Can you hair split more on that?



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He who assumes he has gained the world merely through his 5 senses and who loses faith, loses all
 


Posts: 434 | Posted: 4:28 PM on October 14, 2010 | IP
wisp

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Of course i can.

Does unplugging a respirator of a brain-dead person count?

Did you know that monozygotic twins can be artificially produced by splitting an embryo in half?

Is it morally wrong for you to split an embryo in half then? You haven't killed anything.

...unless you think the soul has been split or some other carp like that.

Perhaps the person that was "
destined" to be born will never be born, and two different persons will be born instead.

What if you only kill half of an embryo, and the rest develops normally?



You wanted to split hairs regarding the timeline. I think my hair splitting is way more relevant.



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Quote from Lester10 at 2:51 PM on September 21, 2010 in the thread
Scientists assert (by Lester):

Ha Ha. (...) I've told you people endlessly about my evidence but you don't want to show me yours - you just assert.
porkchop
Would we see a mammal by the water's edge "suddenly" start breathing underwater(w/camera effect of course)?
Contact me at youdebate.1wr@gishpuppy.com
 


Posts: 3037 | Posted: 07:11 AM on October 15, 2010 | IP
orion

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Wisp - I got to hand it to you, your depth of knowledge is impressive!

PC - I have yet to hear you address the issue of the teen-age mother who is not yet ready or financially able to care for a baby.  And is it fair that the child's un-wedded father often shares no responsibility for the care of the baby?  The burden often falls entirely on the woman in these cases.

That is the double standard that I referred to earlier.

You ignore a whole spectrum of other issues that are not easily addressed.

No one like abortion.  It is NOT a substitute for birth control.  C6 commented earlier that "Well, she shouldn't have been messing around in the first place."  

What a sexist statement!  And naive!

Many teens are going to have sex whether parents like it or not.  Parents have a choice - they can accept that fact and talk with their kids about taking appropriate percautions, or they can look the other way and pretend nothing is going on, with potentially disastrous results.

Schools, counselors, planned parenthood clinics play invaluable roles too.  Tax dollars providing safe sex education and contraceptives are cheap compared to the alternative social welfare costs of unwanted children, or the trauma and psychological harm of having an abortion.
 


Posts: 1458 | Posted: 10:00 AM on October 15, 2010 | IP
    
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