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       Abortion: A matter of life or death!

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Is abortion a matter of life or death?

Okay, so you don't believe a developing human being in its earliest stages of development is really human?  Okay, so you believe it is human but not viable yet?  Okay, so "viable' means can live on its own outside the womb?  Okay, so, a newborn infant can live on its own, outside the womb, so is that child "viable"?  Okay, I see you concur that with the help of the mother or another caretaker, a newborn is able to live
outside the womb on its own.  Okay, I see you do understand; an infant can not survive on its own outside the womb without the proper care and feeding, and would die without this.  So, I guess you do get it that a developing human being in the earliest stages of life can not possibly survive without the care and feeding provided by the mother or others, and this is solely the mother's responsibility during the zygote, embryo, fetus stages of
development.  These first stages, by the way, have been critical to all of you reading this, for without going through them, you would not be here now.

It does certainly seem, then, that from conception to death, the human being goes through many stages of development, and we all must, by the very nature of what we call human life, experience the different stages in order to continue.  Our hearts beat at six weeks of our human development. Each continuing stage is dependant on this one thing occuring; without that initial heart beat, we would not continue.

So, does a human being die during an abortion?  Certainly!  It really does not matter what "viable" means by medical standards.  The fact is, "viable" or not, that human being lives and will continue unless the mother chooses to terminate that life.  Only in the case of pregnancy is a woman exclusively able to legally decide whether the child she has conceived lives or dies.  In my State, if that woman is harmed at the hands of another, and the child
in her womb dies as a result, that person can be prosecuted and sent to prison for the crime of taking a human life.  However, if this same woman, decides on her own to terminate the life of that same child, she can do this without legal retribution.  I find this legal contridiction quite amazing!

We humans procreate in only one way, and when a woman becomes pregnant, she is most definitely carrying a developing human being, and she is responsible, as any mother would be, for keeping that baby safe and protected!  That she "didn't mean to get pregnant;" that this pregnancy "would interfer with her life;" that she is "too young;" or whatever the reason may be, the fact remains that this person has become a mother, and she will always be the
mother to the baby she has terminated!  She may be able to push that terminated life out of her mind, but she will never be able to push that child out of her heart.  She may say that is not so, that she has "no regrets," but that child was a part of her, even for a short time, and that never goes away!

Abortion is a medical procedure that is here to stay, and it is sometimes necessary, for medical reasons, to have this procedure done.  For those that have experienced this, they know what an agonizing situation this is for them.  For those that are raped and conceive as a result, this is indeed a terrible outcome of a more terrible act of violence.  However, the human child that results is not at fault, and while I realize that this is the most
difficult of situations a woman could face, much thought needs to go into the fact that this is not just a rapist's baby, but yours as well.  For some, this is not a situation that is bearable, and I understand that.  Very, very difficult circumstance to be sure!

Is abortion, then, a matter of life or death?  Sure it is!  Two lives, very much connected, go into the abortion clinic; only one comes out!  I think that the woman that makes this decision needs to understand that no matter what she has been told, this is a decision that she will have to live with the rest of her life, as we all do with the decisions that we make.  The only difference is that most of us will never be given, legally, the right to
decide if another human being lives or dies, and even more, that it would be one of our own children!  Frankly, I would never want that right given to me!

 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 12:34 PM on August 18, 2002 | IP
Exxoss

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Holy crap, you write alot.  But abortion is death.  The moment a sperm hits an egg, its a baby.  Nothing can change that, the same way as a cell in your body being alive.
and get an account, cuz u write good :-)


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Posts: 438 | Posted: 4:04 PM on September 24, 2002 | IP
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I know this is kinda off the subject:

When I was 14, I was raped and I got pregnant.  My mom told me to kill the baby. (she really said the "A-word", but I don't use that word because its not really anything but "killing a baby")  Anyways, I told her no.  And that I was going to have this baby, even though I was raped.  The baby did nothing wrong and therefore shouldn't have to suffer!!  So I had the baby and before I even saw her, I gave her up for adoption.  I never saw my baby, but I know that she is alive because of the choice I made.  And she could even be the first woman president, couldn't she??  
Besides, to every person that is pro-choice, you were born, weren't you??
yeah, thats what I thought.


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Posts: 41 | Posted: 01:27 AM on October 18, 2002 | IP
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Bravo!


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Posts: 293 | Posted: 01:30 AM on October 18, 2002 | IP
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that was awesome!  you go girl.  i think exactly the same way.  even if i got pregnant (which i wont) i would still put it up for adoption.  thanx
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 4:12 PM on October 28, 2002 | IP
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Go loca! Go loca!


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Posts: 34 | Posted: 2:51 PM on November 15, 2002 | IP
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Quote from FreedomFighter13 at 2:51 PM on November 15, 2002 :
Go loca! Go loca!

ignore me!! Go Squirt!




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Posts: 34 | Posted: 2:52 PM on November 15, 2002 | IP
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abortion is not death...so ha!

yay, loca posted, arent u so proud?

do you seriously think i am going to read that whole LONG thing?

your baby could become the first woman president? 2 things to that: #1 we already went through this, she could also be a murderer, 2: no I will be the first woman president, not her.

i was born. and if i hadnt been born, would i care? if i hadnt been raised as i was, if i had different parents, would i be anything like what i am like now? NO

of course, i would never ignore you. i am very sorry if you thought i was...
 


Posts: 60 | Posted: 8:01 PM on November 15, 2002 | IP
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abortion is not death...so ha!


That's wrong. It's a scientific fact that the fetus is alive. Therefore, it is death.


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Posts: 49 | Posted: 10:15 PM on November 15, 2002 | IP
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abortion is not death.  Scientist also conclude that the child is part of the mother; it is part of her for about a month, then it is claimed alive, it gets a heartbeat, or at least a noticable one, and it gets a formation instead of just a blob.  Therefore, while abortion is able to be gotten, (or at least it shoud be) the baby is not actually alive, therefore cannot be killed.


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Posts: 438 | Posted: 2:24 PM on November 17, 2002 | IP
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abortion is not death.  Scientist also conclude that the child is part of the mother; it is part of her for about a month, then it is claimed alive, it gets a heartbeat, or at least a noticable one, and it gets a formation instead of just a blob.  Therefore, while abortion is able to be gotten, (or at least it shoud be) the baby is not actually alive, therefore cannot be killed.


What a lie. This is impossible- because the fetus is it's own being, and a mother cannot grow a new part of her body over and over again. We are mammals- not amphibians! :-)


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Posts: 49 | Posted: 5:03 PM on November 17, 2002 | IP
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Pro-choice does not mean pro-abortion.  Look at the alternatives to safe and legal abortion.  That is what pro-choice advocates hope to avoid.  Pro-choice does not mean I will or would have an abortion, it means I know that people will continue to have abortions, whatever their reasons, and I want them to live through it.
 


Posts: 1 | Posted: 8:16 PM on November 18, 2002 | IP
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Pro-choice does not mean pro-abortion.  Look at the alternatives to safe and legal abortion.  That is what pro-choice advocates hope to avoid.  Pro-choice does not mean I will or would have an abortion, it means I know that people will continue to have abortions, whatever their reasons, and I want them to live through it.


Pro-Choice means you think the woman should have the right to choose- well I don't beleive it is the woman's choice, I beleive the choice is on the person, the baby. The mother cannot take away a life that does not belong to her.
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 10:26 PM on November 18, 2002 | IP
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Pro-Choice means you think the woman should have the right to choose- well I don't beleive it is the woman's choice, I beleive the choice is on the person, the baby. The mother cannot take away a life that does not belong to her.


I don't beleive you said that.  It is exactly the woman's choice. Scientifically, the foetus is not alive until the 24th day, when its heart starts beating.  Therefore, there is no life before hand, as the body, (and by this I mean the cells) is still contructing a life.  This foetus is part of the woman, so much so that if complications occur, it could kill her. She has every right to choose how she responds and what the outcome is to be, but I do think that this choice should be a a well informed choice.

We are trying to be a democratic society, therefore choice becomes a serious part of that.  How can you possibly deny the right to choose? Denying that right is against all human rights.  



 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 11:59 AM on November 19, 2002 | IP
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I don't think it is anybody's choice but GOD's!!
Who are we to choose who lives and dies??
The mother did have one choice.  Whether or not to have sex, and she chose to have sex, obviously without protection.  That is the only choice she ever had.


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Posts: 41 | Posted: 1:53 PM on November 19, 2002 | IP
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obvioulsy without protection??? protection doesnt work 100% of the time.
 


Posts: 60 | Posted: 6:56 PM on November 19, 2002 | IP
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So? 95% of the time is was the woman's choice to have sex, unprotected or not. Contraceptives not working are no excuse.


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Posts: 101 | Posted: 10:52 PM on November 19, 2002 | IP
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Yes it is.  If you enjoy sex, you want to have it a lot just as humans like to play games a lot. It is not against the law to have sex if you dont want to have a baby, thats why they made contraceptives; to prevent birth! If you use a contraceptive, it is not your fault, but the people whom made it not 100% effective.  It is their fault for making you have the baby even with their so called protection.

Also, amphibian babies are their own because they are in eggs seperate from the mother.  A baby in a MOTHER'S stomach is part of the mother, and even maybe as well as the father.  It is the mother's fetus and the father's sperm, therfore, until it starts developing, (a whole month), it is part of the mother and/or_not the father, therefore, the baby is not its own being; it is the a mother's blob in her stomach.  It is part of her; she is able to cut herself as she is to destroy the blob in herself.

An editorial in the January issue of Scientific American makes the claim that the current decline in the crime rate (after decades of steady increase) is actually due to the defacto legalization of abortion in the 1970's. Interesting if controversial idea. Seems abortion eliminates unwanted children. The aborted boys don't grow up to be criminals.
In many Asian counties there is a tremendous imbalance between the number of boys and girls. This is due to the tendancy of parents to abort girls while retaining the more culturally desirable boys. What effects will this have on society in the future? Rampant homosexuallity and crime? The problem is particularly severe in Korea and China.


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HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

-Exxoss
 


Posts: 438 | Posted: 09:07 AM on November 20, 2002 | IP
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"If you use a contraceptive, it is not your fault, but the people whom made it not 100% effective.  It is their fault for making you have the baby even with their so called protection."

This is a ridiculous statement. Contraceptives are never 100% effective, but waiting until marriage is. If you chose to have sex, unprotected of not, you took the chance of getting pregnant.



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Posts: 101 | Posted: 10:29 AM on November 20, 2002 | IP
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why are there so many threads for the same subject? why not debate on one? I am too lazy to cut and paste or to rewite the same arguments over again. could people who post here check out the arguments on the other abortion thread right below this one (especially mine, which shine with brilliance...just kidding), for the sake of a more open, inclusive, informed, and interesting debate. Then post replies either here or in the other one (preferably). as ben franklin said (i think it was him): "we shall all hang hang together, or we most assuredly we all hang separately." (that quote was actually totally irrelavant, but I had it on the brain)


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Posts: 292 | Posted: 10:41 AM on November 20, 2002 | IP
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I don't think it is anybody's choice but GOD's!!
Who are we to choose who lives and dies??
The mother did have one choice.  Whether or not to have sex, and she chose to have sex, obviously without protection.  That is the only choice she ever had.


If it's god's choice and I don't believe there is a god, whose choice is it really?

Let's look at it a little more systematically.  Why is abortion a problem?  Because some people think it kills a life, right?  Exactly what is a life?  If you're Catholic and believe in the Pope, it's whatever appears at and after conception.  According to this, yeah, abortion is totally wrong because it kills a life.  Suppose I were in a religion that believes that a life is injected into the baby by a "creator" exactly after birth.  It is a perfectly acceptable religion.  In this religion, there is nothing wrong with abortion because a baby before birth is just a body with no life.  My point is that abortion is inherently related to what you think a life is, which is very closely related to what philosophy or religion you think is more acceptable.  In that sense, pro-life agrees that laws should be made to prohibit abortion, suggesting that it kills a life.  This is not any different from forcing the belief that life begins before birth on people.  Where is my religous freedom?
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 06:11 AM on January 13, 2003 | IP
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that doesn't make any sense. i could also havea religion that says life doesn't begin until af age 18. do you think that means if the government says i cannot kill 17 year olds, the government is infringing on my religious freedom? you have to be reasonable. and i think religious belief is not the only way of arriving at a definition for life. there must be some reasonable scientific approach to creating a set of criteria for life/self-awareness. i don't know it, cause i am not an expert. but i have confidence that it can be figured out.


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Posts: 292 | Posted: 11:23 AM on January 13, 2003 | IP
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that doesn't make any sense. i could also havea religion that says life doesn't begin until af age 18. do you think that means if the government says i cannot kill 17 year olds, the government is infringing on my religious freedom? you have to be reasonable. and i think religious belief is not the only way of arriving at a definition for life. there must be some reasonable scientific approach to creating a set of criteria for life/self-awareness. i don't know it, cause i am not an expert. but i have confidence that it can be figured out.


What if the government insists that I can't cut off my finger because it has a life.  I don't know about you, but that sounds rediculous... the difference between a 17yr old and a bundle of cells is that the bundle of cells is a part of the person making the choice!  My point is that.. whatever the start of life is;  it's not up to "god" to decide because there may or may not be a god.
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 8:42 PM on January 13, 2003 | IP
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Whether or not there is a God is not the issue here. The issue is whether or not abortion is morally right. What I don't understand is the concept of human life in this country. Killing an unborn fetus not a problem (obviously). Why, then, are you charged for the death of TWO PEOPLE when you kill a pregnant mother? (No matter WHAT stage of pregnancy.) Wait a minute...I thought that fetuses weren't alive!?
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 10:31 PM on January 15, 2003 | IP
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there are many atheists who are against abortion


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 01:12 AM on January 16, 2003 | IP
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Name one.
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 9:34 PM on January 16, 2003 | IP
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do you remember beavischrist who used to post on this site? he was a strong atheist, hated christianity, and was against abortion.

here are some atheist/agnostic pro-life sites:
http://www.godlessprolifers.org/
http://www.prolife-mcfl.org/refjrnl/prolife_answers.htm
http://www.anzwers.org/free/alexandra/christian.html

these are just a few. i typed "pro-life atheists" in a search engine and got thousands of results.


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 10:00 PM on January 16, 2003 | IP
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Not to be rude or anything, but how can one be pro-life and yet be against the very principles that it is founded on? Ten Commandments- "thou shalt not murder" Here is another verse: Psalm 127 "Behold, children are a heritage from the LORD." How can we be killing human beings which are gifts from God? If you don't want a baby, don't have sex!
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 6:23 PM on January 17, 2003 | IP
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Understand before I say this that I am a christian.  But, I have serious issues with the usage of religion and the christian interpertation of god being the basis of pro-life statements here.  If we are debating abortion as a piece of legislation then religion should have no place in it.  It cheapens democracy and mocks freedom of religion.  If we are simply debating abortions morality, then hopefully by morality we mean a code of conduct seperate from individual religions.  If thats what we mean then what sense does it possibly make to have a bible quote and a vague reference to god be your primary reason for being pro-life.  After all, what difference is that going to make to a jewish pro choicer.
     All I'm saying is why should your personal religion be a deciding factor in decisions that affect other people.
 


Posts: 20 | Posted: 03:26 AM on January 20, 2003 | IP
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Right after conception that person is unique. They have had their hair, eye, and skin color and many other physical features already determined. They have a complete map to growing and becoming a person.

I don't think anyone should be denied the chance to live their life, but there are a few exceptions to that. I think if the baby will only live for a short time or if the mother is in danger there can be an abortion, and not a partial birth abortion either.


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Posts: 351 | Posted: 11:13 AM on January 20, 2003 | IP
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Fact is that right after conception fetuses don't have eyecolor and fingerprints determined.  They don't have much of anything they're just a blob.  Later in the first trimester these things appear, but not in the first trimester
 


Posts: 20 | Posted: 1:02 PM on January 20, 2003 | IP
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The DNA has everything determined, not that it's there, but it will be.


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Posts: 351 | Posted: 1:24 PM on January 20, 2003 | IP
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True.  But, still regardless of what the DNA says its going to be, the fact is it's not.  Not yet.  The fetus will have fingerprints, eye color, all of that, but at that time it doesn't.  It doesn't even have a heartbeat yet.  For that first trimester that fetus will be alive but it isn't then.  
    Your opinions are good but I don't think preordination is a valid arguement on life.
 


Posts: 20 | Posted: 1:37 PM on January 20, 2003 | IP
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The map for life is there.


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Posts: 351 | Posted: 2:01 PM on January 20, 2003 | IP
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Your still on pre-ordination?   How do you know that the "map" is even there.   In the first trimester the fetus is just a alot of conglomerated cells, so how do we know that the path for life is even developed yet?  
 


Posts: 20 | Posted: 2:13 PM on January 20, 2003 | IP
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The DNA is there... it is the map for life.


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Posts: 351 | Posted: 2:18 PM on January 20, 2003 | IP
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Why do you keep saying the same thing over and over again?  If the fetus is at that point nothing but a few cells there is no proof that all the DNA you talk about has been assembled yet.
 


Posts: 20 | Posted: 2:37 PM on January 20, 2003 | IP
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i would have to agree with Broker on this. it is a scientific fact that the "blob" has DNA, which is the "map of life".


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Posts: 292 | Posted: 4:30 PM on January 21, 2003 | IP
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Wow... better go lock myself in that closet again.


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Posts: 351 | Posted: 08:07 AM on January 22, 2003 | IP
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what does that mean? I was being nice...
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 6:06 PM on January 22, 2003 | IP
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It was a joke. I say that every time dsa and I agree too.


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Posts: 351 | Posted: 9:18 PM on January 22, 2003 | IP
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If you feel you are old enough, and responsible enough to have sex, u should be responsible enough to deal with the consequences, it is up to no one else but GOD to take a life, so even if it is ur baby, u have no right to kill it! That is murder, as soon as the sperm hits the egg, it is A BABY!


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Posts: 5 | Posted: 5:08 PM on May 9, 2003 | IP
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Ok, for those of you talking about contraception....is there a pro-life supporter here that uses birth control (the pill)?  Well, if you do, then you too are an abortionist.  The pill doesn't prevent conception, but the fetus from attaching to the uterus.  If we start taking away reproductive rights, we are going to start taking more rights away from women.  Besides, if human life is what you value, why don't you start to value what is existing instead of fighting over the unknown.  Lets not forget the tens of thousands of women that were mutilated by illegal abortions, or the thousands that died.  Why aren't we thinking of a womens health, and childbearing bearing being a severe risk for some.  I think believing that every baby is going to be wanted and is going to be healthy is very naive...  Pro-choice isn't about being pro-abortion...its about CHOICE.
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 11:40 PM on June 4, 2003 | IP
JoeCook529

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I am a pro-life supporter who believes in birth control (the pill), but I can't really take it since I am a guy, unless they have one for men now... hehe.

I don't really think anyone should have the right to choose whether their baby lives or dies.  If anything, only the doctors should be able to make that decision, since an abortion should only be done if the mother is going to die if she has the child (of course, this is with the mother's consent).  If the parent is going to do a bad job raising the baby, that parent should just put it up for adoption, since that at least gives the child a fighting chance at life.

Abortion is the worst attrocity that humanity have ever done to itself.  From what I've read, there are about 1 million  abortions per year (1 million is probable less then what the real figure is), which easily makes this one of the worst murders in human history.  In 8 years at 1 million abortions per year, this makes it worse then the consentration camps in Germany, exept the only difference is we're killing un-born children.

The pill I think is a better alternative then the out-right murder of babies, so I gladly support it.  At least the pill kills the child before it's brain develops enough so that it can feel itself being murdered...

This last part is to people who say abortion should be legal because if it isn't, people will do it anyway: should we legalize stealing because people steal anyway?  Should we legalize murder since people murder other people anyway?  I could go on and on with things like this, but it'd be too long of a post.  The argument that 'people will do abortions anyway' is a very stupid argument.  Why should we legalize something because people will do it whether it is legal or not?

(Edited by JoeCook529 6/10/2003 at 04:27 AM).

(Edited by JoeCook529 6/10/2003 at 04:28 AM).
 


Posts: 12 | Posted: 04:24 AM on June 10, 2003 | IP
nothing_satisfies

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I'm usually a very calm guy and i don't get worked up that easily, but. WHAT THE FU**?!?!?!?, "it's god's decision", yeah how about not.  Since freedom of religion is very applicable in this argument because YOU CAN'T BASE A LEGAL DECISION LIKE THIS ON CHRISTIANITY.  I am an atheist and i am pro-choice (which isn't pro-abortion), but i also PERSONALLY believe abortion to be fundamentaly wrong. However my personal beliefs CAN NOT be held to others.  The choice is that of the mothers and they should have THEIR RIGHT to choose to abort.  I believe that this right should be guaranteed especially when the mother's own life is at risk (kind of like how if you kill someone who is attacking you it's called self-defense and is not murder, it's kinda like that),  i believe that this option should be guaranteed up until the point of giving birth.  I think it's also important to allow abortion up until the second trimester is reahced as long as there is a valid reason (I think everyone has at least a general concept of what valid reasons would be)  since the child does the majority of developing in the 1st trimester.  

I think it is very important to recognize that humanity has not evloved enough to have a good grasp on humanitarian values and that once we do there will be little to no need for abortion because everyone will choose to abide by the golden rule ( treat people the way you want to be treated), however until we as a race reach this point things like abortion remain necessary, as do other crimes against humanity (war, weapons, and others)


So from now on let's try to refrain from attempting to force our religious views on others and actually try using your own intelligence to make a point and actually say something not just write it off to a diety.
 


Posts: 8 | Posted: 12:03 AM on June 11, 2003 | IP
jared00004

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Lets look at this through a biological stand point.  The characteristics to a living creature (not just human) are able to reproduce, maintain homostasis (which a fetus cannot do), have a working blood stream, a pulse (for animals).  Lets see a fetus cannot reproduce, has no pulse or bloodstream (till the 24th day), and cannot maintain homostasis.  Thus IT IS NOT ALIVE.  You cannot kill what is not alive.  It cannot even mildly be considered ''alive'' till the 24th day!!  And weather you like it or not abortion is here to stay, even though it may be regulated.


-------
Jared
 


Posts: 31 | Posted: 6:13 PM on June 20, 2003 | IP
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Hi, I'm new here and I can't sign in, so, I'm going to do this as  guest.  Abortion is murder, no matter how much anyone tries to pretty it up.  When an abortion occurs, you are killing a child, or taking away that childs ability to become a viable human.  No infant is viable immeadiately after they leave the womb, they can't feed themselves, keep, themselves warm, or anything else neccessary for survival.  all they can do is breathe.  
I would like to say that I have a huge problem with somebody equating the pill to abortion, because they obviously have no understanding of how it works.  Birth control pills prevent ovulation, so sperm and egg never meet, therefore, no conception.  The only time I feel that abortion is a viable option is when the mother is likely not to survive giving birth.  If it is a tubal pregnancy, then neither will survive, so it is best to sacrifice the child, and while regrettable, that is the only time I feel the mother shoud have the choice.
-Jessie
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 02:20 AM on August 6, 2003 | IP
    
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