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debategirl88

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We see everyday on the news Atheists complaining about Christians have put up the Ten Commandments and that there shouldn't be "Under God" in the pledge of allegence. What about OUR rights? Aren't we Americans to? Shouldn't we have equal rights like Atheists do?

  Did you know that atheists is a religion? EVERYBODY has a religion. Whether its Catholics, Muslims, Jews, Christians,  or even Atheists. Atheist believe that there is no God, that all they have to answer to is Authority like government or parents or bosses. The definition of religion is someone or some thing you believe in. Atheists believes NO GOD.
So when your saying you don't have a religion your really saying your religion is Atheist.
               
                 What do you think?


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A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned - this is the sum of good government.
-Thomas Jefferson
 


Posts: 157 | Posted: 12:57 PM on December 24, 2002 | IP
debategirl88

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Does anybody have anything to say?



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A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned - this is the sum of good government.
-Thomas Jefferson
 


Posts: 157 | Posted: 9:42 PM on January 8, 2003 | IP
fallingupwards84

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i agree, many times people tend to ignore the rights of Christian people. however, i dont think we NEED the ten commandments in schools. but it is ridiculous to say that there shouldnt be "under God" in the pledge.

hint: you might get a bigger response to your new topic if you put it in its proper forum; the religious forum, not the abortion forum


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 11:12 PM on January 8, 2003 | IP
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oh, no! the poor chirstians don't have the right to cram their religion down the publics throat with public funding. oh no, boo hoo! Removing "in god" from certain government documets IS NOT oppressing a chirstias right to practice or believe in that they choose. It simply is providing that people who don't happen to believe in that don't have have it supported by their public government.
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 8:29 PM on January 9, 2003 | IP
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Quote from fallingupwards84 at 11:12 PM on January 8, 2003 :
i agree, many times people tend to ignore the rights of Christian people. however, i dont think we NEED the ten commandments in schools. but it is ridiculous to say that there shouldnt be "under God" in the pledge.

hint: you might get a bigger response to your new topic if you put it in its proper forum; the religious forum, not the abortion forum



Wasn't the Plege the document that "in god" was added the original version and also written by a socialist?
My true thought on the subjuct is: fuck the pledge! I am not going give my allegiance to anything but what is right and just not some country that has, does. and will continue to commit horrible crimes afainst humanity.
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 8:34 PM on January 9, 2003 | IP
fallingupwards84

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no need to hate on me guest. i'm on your side. so chill out.

i dont say the pledge of allegiance because i dont wanna plege my allegiance to this country. i only pledge my allegiance to God (which is where i differ from you)

christians get hell everyday from ignorant and intolerant people like yourself guest. you know very well that i dont want to push my religion down other peoples throats. i am against government sponsered prayer in schools and i am against the ten commandments in public areas. SO STOP GENERALIZING. OPEN UR MIND A LITTLE BIT AND LEARN HOW TO NOT JUDGE OTHERS BEFORE YOU KNOW THEM.


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 11:12 PM on January 9, 2003 | IP
debategirl88

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falling I didn't think to put it under religion.lol! Anyways I respect that you have your own believes about school prayer and the ten commandments even if there not thwe same direction I am.

guest, I respect my country that gives me freedom to even be on this site. unlike you. Your the type of person who has some bitterness to our nation if you hate it so much go to Iraq. Plus even though I do believe in the posting of the ten commandments and school prayer, i don't like shoving Christianity down peoples throats.

Also your what I call a hypocrite. Like I said in my first post Athiest is a religion. So when your taking out all of the Christianity stuff your shoving Athiests down OUR throats.


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A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned - this is the sum of good government.
-Thomas Jefferson
 


Posts: 157 | Posted: 7:55 PM on January 11, 2003 | IP
AlexanderTheGreat

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debategirl...
i think u confuse rights for Christians with Christian rule. how is atheism a religion? atheism means you do not believe in theism (religion). you said: "The definition of religion is someone or some thing you believe in. Atheists believes NO GOD.
So when your saying you don't have a religion your really saying your religion is Atheist."
that is an absurdly bad definition for religion. so any belief is a religious belief? i believe your screen name is debategirl88. is that a religious belief? i believe my parents are sleeping at home right now? is that a religious belief? religious belief is based on faith, and atheism is based on reason.



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Alex
 


Posts: 292 | Posted: 03:58 AM on January 12, 2003 | IP
fallingupwards84

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true, "isms" are not necessarily religious beliefs. but dont you think it is wrong for an "ism" which is a belief (not a religious one, but a belief just the same) to be shoved down peoples throats? especially if it conflicts with other peoples religions (not just christianity, but islam, judaism, and a bunch of others). no "ism" should be shoved down anyones throat. and reason isnt the answer to everything either, my friend


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 11:36 AM on January 12, 2003 | IP
debategirl88

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Alex you don't get my point.  Like falling said, that atheism is a belief. Christianity is a belief. When you take down our things your shoving Athieism down our throats saying its wrong for us to have our things posted every where. We have rights just like Atheists do.


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A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned - this is the sum of good government.
-Thomas Jefferson
 


Posts: 157 | Posted: 3:56 PM on January 12, 2003 | IP
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What do I think?
What about your (presumably, Christians) rights?  

To even say anything, let's clarify what "rights" means.  No doubt this is a dificult question.  I have never formally studied political science, philosophy, or law, so I don't know what it is exactly, but you have to agree with me that the following can be rights:
1.  eating lunch at 3pm instead of noon
2.  skipping breakfast
4.  voting
etc.

and the following can't be rights:
1.  killing someone
2.  yelling fire in a crowd
3.  forcing people believe in god
4.  forcing your values on people
5.  telling people what to do
etc.


We see everyday on the news Atheists complaining about Christians have put up the Ten Commandments and that there shouldn't be "Under God" in the pledge of allegence. What about OUR rights? Aren't we Americans to? Shouldn't we have equal rights like Atheists do?

Is having "under god" a in the pledge of allegiance (you spelled it wrong, btw) a Christian right?  Well, yes, if it is not required for people who don't believe in god to recite the pledge.   How would you feel if you're forced to pray to Alah every morning?  or to recite a Native American chant? or if it were "under the tree of life" instead of "under god", or what if it's "under satan"?  You wouldn't like it because you don't believe in any of these things.  If someone doesn't believe in god had to recite that, would you think it would offend them?  The bottom line is that the complaints are not because those words are in the pledge but that people who don't believe in it are forced to say it every day!  That, you have to agree, is certainly not a right!



 Did you know that atheists is a religion? EVERYBODY has a religion. Whether its Catholics, Muslims, Jews, Christians,  or even Atheists. Atheist believe that there is no God, that all they have to answer to is Authority like government or parents or bosses. The definition of religion is someone or some thing you believe in. Atheists believes NO GOD.
So when your saying you don't have a religion your really saying your religion is Atheist.

   I disagree that having no religion implies Atheism.  As you said, Atheism believes very strongly that there is no god; this is no doubt the common view.  Suppose I believe there is a chance that god (or any supernatural being of any religion) exists, but it's not certain.  This wouold certainly say that I am not an Atheist.  Moreover, I would have no faith in god, and so cannot be a Christian.  So not having a religion, here, doesn't imply being an Atheist.
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 05:26 AM on January 13, 2003 | IP
fallingupwards84

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someone who believes that there is a chance that God exists but is not certain is defined as agnostic.

anyway, i agree that certain things can be rights and certain things cannot. i guess the thing that i am afraid of most however is that christians will have their real rights taken away from them sometime close in the future. in case you havent noticed, the world has grown more and more hostile to Christians. if this continues, there are going to be calls to ban christianity. sounds crazy huh? well crazier things have happened


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 09:38 AM on January 13, 2003 | IP
AlexanderTheGreat

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why do you think there is growing hostility towards Christians? could any of it have to do with the fact that SO MANY (not all) Christians devote themselves to getting in other people's faces and inhibiting the freedoms of others?


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Alex
 


Posts: 292 | Posted: 09:53 AM on January 13, 2003 | IP
fallingupwards84

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but i think it is very very close-minded to generalize a group of people based on a minority (falwell, robertson, franklin graham, etc)


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 11:37 AM on January 13, 2003 | IP
AlexanderTheGreat

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i am not saying it is right to dislike Christians because of what some people do, but i think it makes a lot of sense to dislike/and oppose the institution of Christianity (i don't mean the overall value-system, but the leadership that makes the big decisions) because of a long history of exploitation, subjugation, and hypocrisy, and also a current problem of (in America) of trying to control other people's lives (I can testify to that, being that the only reason why I am not allowed to marry is influence of institutionalized Christianity on the U.S. govt).


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Alex
 


Posts: 292 | Posted: 1:28 PM on January 13, 2003 | IP
debategirl88

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Last year I was listening to the radio news when thay started talking about Christianity. they said that alot of people were critisising Christians just for being Christians. There is a difference between rights and wants. Yall use the speech right. When we try yall say "seperation of church and state". Do you even know where that came from? It started with a letter from Jefferson to the church. The priest was worried that the govt. was going to make a national religion. In the letter, Jefforson stated that there was a seperation to where the govt. couldn't do that. It wasn't even in the constitution! People use that as if it were. It was first used in the case of Everest v. Virginia school board.


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A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned - this is the sum of good government.
-Thomas Jefferson
 


Posts: 157 | Posted: 7:41 PM on January 13, 2003 | IP
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someone who believes that there is a chance that God exists but is not certain is defined as agnostic.


That's right, but it has nothing to do with my point that it is possible to not have a religion.  By definition a religion requires a commitment to a certain faith... not having a faith is exactly the opposite of that.  Having a name doesn't make it a religion...


anyway, i agree that certain things can be rights and certain things cannot. i guess the thing that i am afraid of most however is that christians will have their real rights taken away from them sometime close in the future.


Exactly what rights are you afraid will be taken away?  There has never been a threat to take away any rights that are specific to Christians.  I agree that certain rights have been threatened, but those are common to everyone, so it's in no way a christian problem and has nothing to do with christian rights, in particular.


in case you havent noticed, the world has grown more and more hostile to Christians.


Where are your evidences for this?  Christians have been very hostile to everyone else... there are certainly more than enough of that.  The Crusade, the Spanish Conquistador, ... you name it!


if this continues, there are going to be calls to ban christianity.  sounds crazy huh? well crazier things have happened


Yes, crazier things have happened... like when christian societies banned other religions and philosophies... Salem witch?  who insisted that Native Americans were savage?  did god create them equally?  I wonder where these things came form.

I have to add that none of the things I said are generalizations... those are all done in the name of god.  If I wanted to generalize, I would certainly mention the numerous cases of christian riots against abortion clinics.... now that is generalization!

The thing to worry about is not Christians losing their rights... it's Christians forcing their ideals on other people!



Last year I was listening to the radio news when thay started talking about Christianity. they said that alot of people were critisising Christians just for being Christians.


Are you asking us to generalize that the characters of those people apply to most of us??  If not, why mention that?


There is a difference between rights and wants. Yall use the speech right. When we try yall say "seperation of church and state". Do you even know where that came from? It started with a letter from Jefferson to the church. The priest was worried that the govt. was going to make a national religion. In the letter, Jefforson stated that there was a seperation to where the govt. couldn't do that. It wasn't even in the constitution! People use that as if it were. It was first used in the case of Everest v. Virginia school board.


The constitution doesn't say separation of church and state, but it does guarantee freedom of religion... that sounds just about the same to me!  Do you even know English? ;)  No offense intended.
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 8:32 PM on January 13, 2003 | IP
fallingupwards84

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as we have seen from the last guest's message, the world indeed is beginning to get more and more hostile towards Christains. i really like how he lists all of these wrongdoings that occured centuries and centuries ago. very cute, guest. too bad there is not one single Christain who thinks that these were acceptable nowadays. why dont you give us some modernday examples? or do you just want to live in the past?


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 12:08 AM on January 14, 2003 | IP
AlexanderTheGreat

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Explain why sodomy is illegal.
Explain why Bush opposes stem cell research.


-------
Alex
 


Posts: 292 | Posted: 07:38 AM on January 14, 2003 | IP
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Ever hear the phrase, "You can dish it out, but you can't take it"? That's what's happening when Fundamentalists say they are being persecuted. They have been on the attack for years now, trying to deny rights to homosexuals, trying to keep women from obtaining equal rights, and trying to impose their own morals - many of them non-biblical - on the rest of society. Non-Fundamentalists are finally fighting back by speaking out against their campaigns, their media onslaughts, and their mistaken notions of truth, and the Fundamentalists don't like it very much. They can dish it out, but they can't take it. So when people of good conscience stand up for their rights, Fundamentalists cry foul - they claim they are being persecuted.

Fundamentalists see this "persecution" as biblical proof of being on God's side. It's not. Their so-called persecution is merely the rest of society defending itself from their attacks. Their so-called persecution is merely being called to the carpet for their actions. Their so-called persecution comes in the form of editorials that don't paint them in a glowing light or legislation that goes against their made-truths. If they can't get their schools to allow them to pray to their God during class time, they claim they are being attacked. What would happen if Buddhists and Muslims tried to get the same special rights? Fundamentalists would be beside themselves in anger.

This is not the persecution mentioned in the Bible. The leaders of the Christian Coalition are not being hung on crosses (Philippians 2:8). The leaders of the Family Research Council are not being stoned to death (Acts 7:59). The leaders of Focus on the Family are not being thrown to the lions (Daniel 6:16). And yet these people have the gall to claim they are being persecuted in God's name. They are not. All they have to worry about is someone calling them bad names and denying them their request for favoritism.


 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 08:46 AM on January 14, 2003 | IP
fallingupwards84

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alex, i've never said that i think sodomy should be illegal. and many atheists are against abortion and stem cell research.

guest, i am anything but a fundamentalist. in fact, i am probably the most LIBERAL person on this entire site. SO BEFORE YOU JUDGE ME AND CLOSE YOUR MIND, WHY DONT YOU OPEN YOUR EYES AND READ SOME OTHER POSTS IN OTHER FORUMS THAT CLEARLY STATE THAT I AM A LIBERAL. i am more liberal than you could ever hope to be.

and i never said that Christians are currently being persecuted. i merely stated that i think someday in the near future they will. by ignorant people like you.


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 08:50 AM on January 14, 2003 | IP
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falling - You have no idea what my political beliefs are so you only show your own ignorance by saying that you are more liberal than I am.  If you are such a great liberal why do you always resort to calling people ignorant throughout your posts on this board.  Not a very liberal thing to be doing.  Go back and read your own posts, and if you can be honest with yourself, you will realize you are a very closed minded person.
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 09:07 AM on January 14, 2003 | IP
AlexanderTheGreat

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actually I am liberal and I call people ignorant all the time. if you are, you are. and falling, i didn't say you think sodomy is illegal. i asked why is it illegal. the answer is moral pushiness from the Christian element in American society. that was my modern example of institutionalized Christianity not minding its own business.


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Alex
 


Posts: 292 | Posted: 09:29 AM on January 14, 2003 | IP
fallingupwards84

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alex, you know through my earlier posts that i do not believe government and Christianity should be mixed. and you are very right alex, if someone is ignorant then they are ignorant.

hey guest, i got a few questions fer ya:

1. are you a socialist?
2. do you believe in the equal distribution of wealth?
3. do you want the death penalty to be abolished?
4.do you believe in equal rights for everyone (including gays)?
5. do you believe in separation of church and state?
6. are you against free trade (and for protectionism)?
7. are you against a war in iraq?
8. are you pro-environment?


these are just a few questions (i'm too tired to think of any more). i dont understand why you have to be hypocritical and accuse me of being close-minded, but thats fine. i respect your beliefs. maybe you should learn to respect others.

and btw, i answered yes to all of those questions. i am sure that you answered yes to alot of those questions too. but if you did not answer yes to all of them, then that prolly means that i am more liberal. but you can accuse me, you can judge me, you can say whatever you want about me. you can call me the most conservative nationalistic person in the world, for all i care.


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 11:05 AM on January 14, 2003 | IP
AlexanderTheGreat

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for fun i want to try those questions:
1. no
2. no
3. of course
4. especially gays (heehee)
5. of course
6. no way man!
7. hmm, for it, but not this year
8. who is anti-environment? actually, i think animals deserve the same rights as people, including social security.

hey, just curious, falling: how and why are u against the war vs. iraq?


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Alex
 


Posts: 292 | Posted: 5:16 PM on January 14, 2003 | IP
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as we have seen from the last guest's message, the world indeed is beginning to get more and more hostile towards Christains.


You have a twisted understand of the meaning of the word "hostile."  Let me remind you what it means exactly:


1 a : of or relating to an enemy b : marked by malevolence c : openly opposed or resisting d : not hospitable
2 a : of or relating to the opposing party in a legal controversy
b : adverse to the interests of a property owner or corporation management


For definition 1, I have never been an enemy of Christians (you, probably being a Christian, may think so, but I don't, which makes you hostile to me -- a Christian hostile to a non-Christian).  There has been no malevolent act from me.    All I am saying is that I don't agree with you that we are all "under god", and, as a result, I, and people who believe as I do, shouldn't be made to recite that [post #1].  [post #2] The second point I made was that I am not hostile to Christians and the world is not hostile to Christians.  What appears to be true is, actually, that Christians are forcing their ideals on other people.  This may include hostility from Christians towards other people.  

Definition 2, the first part is a legal definition, so it doesn't quite apply here.  The second is only true if Christians view the existence of non-Christians is hostile to them.  If Christians, in fact, view that the existence of non-Christians is hostile to them (which I doubt, although you can say more on this than I can), then to hell with them.... Otherwise, I have shown no hostility, and the majority of the world has shown no hostility towards Christians.


i really like how he lists all of these wrongdoings that occured centuries and centuries ago. very cute, guest. too bad there is not one single Christain who thinks that these were acceptable nowadays.


I didn't continue to list more because of limitation in my time and I didn't want to make the post too long.  I will continue to list some more, including some modern aggressions, at the end of this post.  The second point you are making is NOT true.  Some Christians find some of those things acceptable!  Let's not forget why the Crusade is mentioned in most history books as the "holy war"?  You're probably a Christian; does holy mean bad?


why dont you give us some modernday examples? or do you just want to live in the past?


Some modern examples:
As someone already mentioned, stem cell research.  Bush publicly mentions that, according to his Christian faith, stem cell research is a violation of life and what not, and, as a result, he's been working hard to prevent that.  Despite the fact that some people think that a bundle of cells (even before specialization of function, mind you) can't have a life.  But that's ok because some Christians think life begins at conception, so everyone must agree, right?  I am not singling out Bush as an individual, but the overwhelming Christian population support this!

There is an overwhelming push to ban same sex marriages.  Do you know who leads this effort?  There are places in this country and world where you still can't get married if you are a couple of the same sex.  This doesn't affect me, in particular, but it's an example of you know who forcing their ideals on other people.

Do you need more examples?
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 6:24 PM on January 14, 2003 | IP
debategirl88

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Quote from Guest at 09:07 AM on January 14, 2003 :
falling - You have no idea what my political beliefs are so you only show your own ignorance by saying that you are more liberal than I am.  If you are such a great liberal why do you always resort to calling people ignorant throughout your posts on this board.  Not a very liberal thing to be doing.  Go back and read your own posts, and if you can be honest with yourself, you will realize you are a very closed minded person.



Actually it is very coomon for liberals to do that. My dad goes to the yahoo debate forums. When he is winning, they (and I do mean 99% of them) call him names, and threaten him. they usually just cut him down simply because he's winning and they can't.


-------
A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned - this is the sum of good government.
-Thomas Jefferson
 


Posts: 157 | Posted: 6:37 PM on January 14, 2003 | IP
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Btw, there are two "Guest"s on this thread.  I am the one who likes to paste the statement in Italic font before I reply to it.


guest, I respect my country that gives me freedom to even be on this site. unlike you. Your the type of person who has some bitterness to our nation if you hate it so much go to Iraq.


This is what is called an ad hominem (literally, "against the man") argument -- an argument against the person and not his/her idea.  I have been told that a good argument shouldn't not be ad hominem... maybe you disagree?  In any case, I will ignore all arguments of this type.


Plus even though I do believe in the posting of the ten commandments and school prayer, i don't like shoving Christianity down peoples throats.


Posting the ten commandments (presumably, in school) and school (Christian) prayers are, in fact, shoving Christianity down peoples' throats.   A child who sees these things day after day will probably, involuntarily, believe it's true.  If you ask me: making people involuntarily believe in something is forcing it down their throats.

Just imagine, as I described before,  if you have to sing a Native American chant every morning....  well, just look at my other post.


Also your what I call a hypocrite.


Again, ad hominem, unless you mean to imply that his argument was hypocritical.


Like I said in my first post Athiest is a religion. So when your taking out all of the Christianity stuff your shoving Athiests down OUR throats.


I disagree that removing Christian "propaganda" (so to speak) from public places is shoving Atheism down anyone's throat.  As before, removing those things will simply be alieviating Christian's forcing of their ideals on people.  And, to reiterate, there is such a thing as having no religion.  Atheism may be a religion in itself because it vehemently denies the existence of god, but agnosticism is not a religion, by definition.



Actually it is very coomon for liberals to do that.


This is an of the example of a terrible generalization.  There is absolutely no way to verify the validity of that statement.... not to mention verifying that it is true.


My dad goes to the yahoo debate forums. When he is winning, they (and I do mean 99% of them) call him names, and threaten him. they usually just cut him down simply because he's winning and they can't.


Who is "they"?  I assume you mean the people who posted on the Yahoo! debate forums.  Why do you bring this up?  To support the fact that liberals "do that" (presumably, call people names, etc.).  Are you saying that the liberals on Yahoo! debate forums represent the liberals population?  Highly unlikely.  Not to mention that some people on those debate forums may claim they are liberal but are not by any standard of liberalism.  10 people jumping off a bridge in San Francisco doesn't mean the city is suicidal ;)
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 7:09 PM on January 14, 2003 | IP
fallingupwards84

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to answer your question alex, i do not think that we should invade iraq. while sadamm is an awful person who has violated human rights (and needs to be overthrown), i think that it would be much better if we achieved this diplomatically. if we just simply invade iraq, then we're just going to anger all the arabs even more and there will be more terrorism.

i think that it would be much easier to have religious debates if everyone made it clear of what they believe.


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 8:19 PM on January 14, 2003 | IP
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i think that it would be much easier to have religious debates if everyone made it clear of what they believe.


With respect to this thread, it is clear what I believe.  I think that Christian's rights are not threatened as much as anyone's rights, and, on the contrary, Christians (as an institution) are making efforts to force their ideals on other people.  I have not been at all vague about that.
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 9:02 PM on January 14, 2003 | IP
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what i meant was what your religious (or non-religious beliefs are). for example, are you atheist? are you jewish? are you a liberal-christian? are you a conservative christian? etc...


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 9:22 PM on January 14, 2003 | IP
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Quote from Guest at 7:09 PM on January 14, 2003 :
Btw, there are two "Guest"s on this thread.  I am the one who likes to paste the statement in Italic font before I reply to it.


guest, I respect my country that gives me freedom to even be on this site. unlike you. Your the type of person who has some bitterness to our nation if you hate it so much go to Iraq.


This is what is called an ad hominem (literally, "against the man") argument -- an argument against the person and not his/her idea.  I have been told that a good argument shouldn't not be ad hominem... maybe you disagree?  In any case, I will ignore all arguments of this type.


Plus even though I do believe in the posting of the ten commandments and school prayer, i don't like shoving Christianity down peoples throats.


Posting the ten commandments (presumably, in school) and school (Christian) prayers are, in fact, shoving Christianity down peoples' throats.   A child who sees these things day after day will probably, involuntarily, believe it's true.  If you ask me: making people involuntarily believe in something is forcing it down their throats.

Just imagine, as I described before,  if you have to sing a Native American chant every morning....  well, just look at my other post.


Also your what I call a hypocrite.


Again, ad hominem, unless you mean to imply that his argument was hypocritical.


Like I said in my first post Athiest is a religion. So when your taking out all of the Christianity stuff your shoving Athiests down OUR throats.


I disagree that removing Christian "propaganda" (so to speak) from public places is shoving Atheism down anyone's throat.  As before, removing those things will simply be alieviating Christian's forcing of their ideals on people.  And, to reiterate, there is such a thing as having no religion.  Atheism may be a religion in itself because it vehemently denies the existence of god, but agnosticism is not a religion, by definition.



Actually it is very coomon for liberals to do that.


This is an of the example of a terrible generalization.  There is absolutely no way to verify the validity of that statement.... not to mention verifying that it is true.


My dad goes to the yahoo debate forums. When he is winning, they (and I do mean 99% of them) call him names, and threaten him. they usually just cut him down simply because he's winning and they can't.


Who is "they"?  I assume you mean the people who posted on the Yahoo! debate forums.  Why do you bring this up?  To support the fact that liberals "do that" (presumably, call people names, etc.).  Are you saying that the liberals on Yahoo! debate forums represent the liberals population?  Highly unlikely.  Not to mention that some people on those debate forums may claim they are liberal but are not by any standard of liberalism.  10 people jumping off a bridge in San Francisco doesn't mean the city is suicidal ;)




Im not adding hominem, I'm saying that which ever guest said i will continue to commit horrible crimes against humanity was wrong for saying that. I wasn't attacking guest.

Second when I called guest a hypocrite I was not attacking him I was saying that what he said was hypocritical.

Third of all, Im not saying that the people on yahoo! debate forums are not all like that but when I watch Bill O'Reilly and hannity and Colmes there like that. When I listen to Rush Limbaugh, I hear about Liberals doing that. So thats my perspective of most ofthem. Im not saying that All ofthem do that but most do.



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A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned - this is the sum of good government.
-Thomas Jefferson
 


Posts: 157 | Posted: 9:31 PM on January 14, 2003 | IP
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rush limbaugh is quite biased though...


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 10:19 PM on January 14, 2003 | IP
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Im not adding hominem, I'm saying that which ever guest said i will continue to commit horrible crimes against humanity was wrong for saying that. I wasn't attacking guest.


Are you subtracting hominem?  ;)
Sorry, bad joke, but I can't help it.  Anyway, you said


Your the type of person who has some bitterness to our nation if you hate it so much go to Iraq.


Assuming "your" means (more grammatically correct) "you're", then you are saying that "he is the type of person....", which is a direct characterization of him, as a person, not his arguments.


Second when I called guest a hypocrite I was not attacking him I was saying that what he said was hypocritical.


Maybe you should have use the second wording..


Third of all, Im not saying that the people on yahoo! debate forums are not all like that but


You're not?   Why did you bring the yahoo! debate forums up then?  Oh right, you said 99% of them... so you know all 100% of them and 99% of them "do that".  Because if you don't know 100% of them, there is no way to tell when 99% of them do something.


when I watch Bill O'Reilly and hannity and Colmes there like that. When I listen to Rush Limbaugh, I hear about Liberals doing that. So thats my perspective of most ofthem. Im not saying that All ofthem do that but most do.


I never said you said "all ofthem do that".  I am saying that even the conclusion that "most do" is a gross generalization.  You have absolutely no statistically valid sampling.  Are you saying that the liberals you see/hear on "Bill O'Reilly and hannity and Colmes" and on "Rush Limbaugh" represent most of the liberals?  Because otherwise, how can you say that most liberals follow that attitude.    Do you realize that some of these people are against liberals?  It's likely that they try to find liberals who don't have good manners to show how bad liberals are.... so the people on these shows are probably the few scums of liberals.  Let's say I start a TV show and I call up Christians who burned down abortion clinics.  Suppose you watch my show, would you conclude that most Christians are evil people who go around burning  abortion clinics?  If not, then don't do the same the other way....

Btw, I realize you are young, and I don't mean for you to take offense at this, but you should be a little careful about using correct grammar.  I realize this isn't an important paper or even a serious debate, but it's probably a good practice to keep up with the good grammar.  You incorrectly used "your" and  "there" for "you're" and "they're".  
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 10:41 PM on January 14, 2003 | IP
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hey guest, here on youdebatedotcom, we do not stress over grammer or spelling. if someone says "your" and means "you're" we know what they mean. this isnt english class


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 12:13 AM on January 15, 2003 | IP
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what i meant was what your religious (or non-religious beliefs are). for example, are you atheist? are you jewish? are you a liberal-christian? are you a conservative christian? etc...


Then you shouldn't have said "i think that it would be much easier to have religious debates if everyone made it clear of what they believe." ;)  For the reason that it wouldn't make any difference what my religious faith (or lack of) is, so it wouldn't "be much easier to ...".  What is important is the substance of my arguments... are the premises facts, do the conclusions follow logically... those are the important things.  Not my personal religious opinion.

It's a completely different story if you want to know out of curiosity or if you just want to know about me, as a person ;)
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 12:15 AM on January 15, 2003 | IP
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hey guest, here on youdebatedotcom, we do not stress over grammer or spelling. if someone says "your" and means "you're" we know what they mean. this isnt english class


Did you not read what I said? I recognized it's not important but recommend people to keep up with the good grammar because it's a good habit to have.  People may or may not follow my recommendation... I just pointed it out in case she didn't realize she made those mistakes.
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 12:18 AM on January 15, 2003 | IP
fallingupwards84

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ok guest, instead of steering around my question of what your religious beliefs are, can you just answer it. i just wanna know what you believe. i am curious. is there a problem there? are you embarrased to share them?

jeez dude, do ya hafta pick on the way everyone types or structures there sentences? i realize that you said it is "not important" but obviously you do cuz you did the same thing to me.


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 12:33 AM on January 15, 2003 | IP
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ok guest, instead of steering around my question of what your religious beliefs are, can you just answer it. i just wanna know what you believe. i am curious.


Never without a fight... ;)


is there a problem there? are you embarrased to share them?


Well, you should've said you're curious before.  


jeez dude, do ya hafta pick on the way everyone types or structures there sentences? i realize that you said it is "not important" but obviously you do cuz you did the same thing to me.


I think of it as doing a service.  I am trying to (maybe unsuccessfully) help you write a little better.  Maybe she'll do a little better on her next English exam because she won't make the same grammatical mistakes... or maybe you won't say a statement that is false and get better grade in science or something.  If you both go to school, that is.


So what's my religion?  I don't know.  I guess, by my argument above, I have no religion.   Believing there is a god (or any other deity) is certainly pleasing as I have no desire to break any of the moral restrictions (that I know of) of most religions, and the rewards to a good believer are very tempting.  On the other hand, I owe it to myself to accept an unanswerable question as it is... unanswerable.  If I adopt a faith and stop asking questions, then where will the arguments lie;  I want to say that I let practical evidences guide my religious ideals, but, yet on another point, it must be dull to live and not believe in such fun things as angels, and saints, and leprechauns, and..., well, possibly the boogieman.... and what fun is it waking up in the middle of the night asking what it feels like to be nothing when you die.

So the answer is.... I don't know.
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 01:27 AM on January 15, 2003 | IP
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thank you for answering my question, mr guest. it sure took ya long enough


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 01:43 AM on January 15, 2003 | IP
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hey no one asked me!!!!

i hate God and will give him a big punch in the nose if I see him!!

and rush limbaugh is SOOOO dumb!


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Alex
 


Posts: 292 | Posted: 10:01 AM on January 15, 2003 | IP
fallingupwards84

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rush limgaugh is quite the fool.

alex, i remember a few months ago that you said you were agnostic. is this still true?


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 10:07 AM on January 15, 2003 | IP
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i am an agnostic but i do attend regular thursday meetings of the Global Underground Gay Conspiracy to Molest Children. that's more of a club than a religion though.


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Alex
 


Posts: 292 | Posted: 12:58 PM on January 15, 2003 | IP
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Quote from debategirl88 at 7:41 PM on January 13, 2003 :
Last year I was listening to the radio news when thay started talking about Christianity. they said that alot of people were critisising Christians just for being Christians. There is a difference between rights and wants. Yall use the speech right. When we try yall say "seperation of church and state". Do you even know where that came from? It started with a letter from Jefferson to the church. The priest was worried that the govt. was going to make a national religion. In the letter, Jefforson stated that there was a seperation to where the govt. couldn't do that. It wasn't even in the constitution! People use that as if it were. It was first used in the case of Everest v. Virginia school board.



Yes, we are allowed to say "Separation of Church and State" because that's what it's there for. "Congress shall make no law respecting and establishment of religion" Direct quote from the first amendment. We're not shoving Atheism down your throat because no one says that you can't pray by yourself or carry a cross with you, and they don't post a sign on the walls saying "THERE IS NO GOD"
Someone else said that us ignorant people will try to ban Christianity. The First Amendment says that we can't do that as well, so you and your belief (which is the only one that I know of, I might add, that directly tells you to convert people) are perfectly safe. I'm Jewish btw
 


Posts: 30 | Posted: 8:24 PM on January 28, 2003 | IP
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By im leaving this site and going to the  new one (You Debate- powered by vBulletin) . Hope to see you there!


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A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned - this is the sum of good government.
-Thomas Jefferson
 


Posts: 157 | Posted: 5:19 PM on February 3, 2003 | IP
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Quote from debategirl88 at 12:57 PM on December 24, 2002 :
We see everyday on the news Atheists complaining about Christians have put up the Ten Commandments and that there shouldn't be "Under God" in the pledge of allegence. What about OUR rights? Aren't we Americans to? Shouldn't we have equal rights like Atheists do?

  Did you know that atheists is a religion? EVERYBODY has a religion. Whether its Catholics, Muslims, Jews, Christians,  or even Atheists. Atheist believe that there is no God, that all they have to answer to is Authority like government or parents or bosses. The definition of religion is someone or some thing you believe in. Atheists believes NO GOD.
So when your saying you don't have a religion your really saying your religion is Atheist.
               
                 What do you think?



I think that is downright stupid, no offense to you of courwse.  Atheism is the lack of belief; not the belief in nothing.  and it is stated in the first ammendmant: 'no establishment of religion'.  Posting ten commandments is an establishment of religion.


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I am Exxoss, come to save you all from your impending doom!!!!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

-Exxoss
 


Posts: 438 | Posted: 3:02 PM on February 11, 2003 | IP
    
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