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fallingupwards84

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who's saying that the fetus is not conscious when it is slaughtered?


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 1:18 PM on November 24, 2002 | IP
Exxoss

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For the first month its not; it has no hearbeat, therefore its not alive at all.


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I am Exxoss, come to save you all from your impending doom!!!!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

-Exxoss
 


Posts: 438 | Posted: 8:49 PM on November 24, 2002 | IP
fallingupwards84

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not all babies are aborted within the first month though


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 8:58 PM on November 24, 2002 | IP
Cool-Hand-Dave

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so then, would you support abortion withing the first month?


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Cool Hand Dave
 


Posts: 134 | Posted: 12:49 PM on November 25, 2002 | IP
fallingupwards84

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i dont support abortion period. i just mentioned that fact because Exxoss said abortion is ok because the baby doesnt feel it.


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 1:22 PM on November 25, 2002 | IP
Exxoss

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But they are most of the time aborted in the first month -- its most of the first trimester! (i think)

The baby still wouldnt feel a thing outside of the month; its brain is not yet complicated enough to feel pain, and its nerves are not developed until after the first trimestter.  Do i get a cookie and win?


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I am Exxoss, come to save you all from your impending doom!!!!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

-Exxoss
 


Posts: 438 | Posted: 6:21 PM on November 25, 2002 | IP
thistownwilleatu

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Why does the fact that the baby can or cannot feel pain change anything?  Where did you get that just because something can't feel pain it's not a life?  Do you define your personal life by pain?


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"The greatest evil is not done in those sordid dens of evil that Dickens loved to paint ... but is conceived and ordered (moved, seconded, carried and minuted) in clear, carpeted, warmed, well-lighted offices, by quiet men with white collars and cut fingernails and smooth-shaven cheeks who do not need to raise their voices." - Thomas Merton

"I thank my God for every remembrance of you." - Paul
 


Posts: 341 | Posted: 7:06 PM on November 25, 2002 | IP
fallingupwards84

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when the government executes someone by lethal injection, they do not feel it either. but they are still dead, whether they feel it or not.


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 11:56 PM on November 25, 2002 | IP
Exxoss

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but they feel the needle.
the fact is,
1) the baby is part of the mother;its an undeveloped blob until after the first trimester
2)it feels no pain, so its harmless
3) it saves millions of people from cash spending
4) it saves mothers from post-adoption deppersion (worse that post abortion & more liable to happen)
5) it is free currently; abortion babies are instead stem cell reasearched
6) it is painless
7) need i go on?


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I am Exxoss, come to save you all from your impending doom!!!!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

-Exxoss
 


Posts: 438 | Posted: 4:36 PM on November 26, 2002 | IP
curlycue_124

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My sister was forced to have an abortion after she was raped. She was 15 yrs. old. and advocates of Planned Parenthood were involved. My sister never went back for the 2nd pill, and she wasn't administered RU-486 till 2 wks after the rape occured. Since than she has had many health problems, and is very pro-life. No one believes that this could've occured. When my Mom asked why she wasn't told, Planned Parenthood stated that they felt they did what was in my sister's best interest. I don't believe my sister should've been denied choice and I don't believe that we should be telling others they are sinners or that they will go to hell, the Bible clearly describes hell as a place where no one should go. Satan rejoices when we say something like that, teach repent and you shall be saved. If you are sorry for your sins God will forgive you.
Recently a Citizen Petition was released for the RU-486 pill siteing complaints and a want to have the pill stopped in distribution and reevaluated on its safety, the petition is 92 pages long. The pill has been linked to the deaths of 2 women, and hemoraging in 19 others. Also a Partial Birth Abortion Petition has been released. If anyone would like any info on either of these procedures, or would like to sign the petition I can be reached at curlycue_124@yahoo.com

I am also on a debate board located at www.ivillage.com (search under Abortion, and find Abortion debate) I encourage any women (or men) that can present the abortion debate with creditable info to come and share the knowledge that women's rights are no longer being protected, they are being exploited. This board doesn't allow threatening actions on others so remember to inform not threaten.

Please debate only when you have the information behind you (bible verses, newspaper clippings, website listings) the fight for life is crucial because with disrespect for birth come disrespect for life for those great and small.


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Jennifer
 


Posts: 2 | Posted: 8:31 PM on November 26, 2002 | IP
curlycue_124

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For those who say a newborn doesn't feel pain, studies show that the brain and spine develop first, this is the neurological system, and science does state that after the 12th week almost all systems are developed. The neurological system develops first and is completed before anything else. Planned Parenthood made 60 million dollars on abortions alone, if you had a choice between performing more abortions or ruling them out what would you do? Especially if you knew you'd loose out on this much income. We should be teaching abstinence and telling women to respect their bodies, not its your choice to let your child live or die. Either way if we bring God in or not. Science says the child feels pain early on and classifies it as a living being, and God says not to kill the child.
We live in a society where everyone makes mistakes (and pregnancy is no mistake, if you have sex you can always get pregnant), and we live in a society where everyone is told not to worry if they become pregnant because everyone else will fix everything for them.
Look on scientific websites on abortion and see for yourself, abortionists don't have to have malpractice insurance and even if they are sued and have to pay out they can always go bankrupt and open up somewhere else. There are no laws limiting abortion, or telling abortionists they have to follow certain procedures. All they have to do is destroy the "problem". How's that for women's rights? We leave women and young girls open for exploitation and say if we put rules on abortion we destroy the right to choose, when really we'd be protecting a woman in her most vulnerable moment.


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Jennifer
 


Posts: 2 | Posted: 8:46 PM on November 26, 2002 | IP
hooyah

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I support abortion as long as it is done within the first trimester and only for a good (medical) reason.

A woman should have no right to have an abortion just because she doesn't want the baby!

Only a medical doctor should have (and not one that just does abortions) the "say so" of whether the abortion needs to be performed.

Is it a life? or Not? Maybe. Maybe not.  But I think we all agree that someday it will be!  And on that note, abortion is NOT a "right" that should be placed on the same level as other rights; such as the right to vote, or not.  It is one to be taken seriously!


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A just government has nothing to fear from an armed citizenry!
 


Posts: 110 | Posted: 01:47 AM on November 27, 2002 | IP
Exxoss

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Studies alslo show that within the first trimester, the nerves are undeveloped, and therefore cannot send messages to the brain; the reason why most babies only start kicking after the first trimester.  Now, while ive never been pregnant, (and really hope not to ever be as i am a male) I can say that i have seen abortion in my dearest frend morgan :'(  That's why i hate partial birth and the other partial birth. (illegal)

Also, your saying that a woman has not the right to destroy part of herself;  The baby is not developed until after the first trimester, therefore its not a human, but a sperm and egg combo.  Do i not have the right to cut myself?


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I am Exxoss, come to save you all from your impending doom!!!!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

-Exxoss
 


Posts: 438 | Posted: 10:55 AM on November 27, 2002 | IP
hooyah

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You may cut yourself all you like, sir.

I will agree that the baby (sperm and egg combo, as you call it) MAY not be considered "alive" in the early stage.

The point that I was trying to make is that SOME DAY, that little zygote WILL become a living, breathing little baby.

Hopefully, and I don't mean to insult your intelligence, you can see that cutting yourself and having an abortion are extremely different things.

If you cut yourself, you will heal.  Unfortunately, when a woman has an abortion, the "baby" will not.

Again, maybe "it" is alive and maybe "it" is not.  But by having an abortion, she is preventing a life.


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A just government has nothing to fear from an armed citizenry!
 


Posts: 110 | Posted: 12:32 AM on November 28, 2002 | IP
AlexanderTheGreat

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i believe the zygote whatver is alive, and human. so stop saying I am saying it isn't. i am just saying, in my opinion. "wrong" means something that causes suffering. I don't see how abortion causes suffering to the zygote. you can't just say "not getting to grow up into a human" is suffering. you have to say why. i mean, buddhism defines life as suffering. (1st noble truth). so, how do y'all define it? (feel free to mention your religion, but you better also have an argument that can satisfy the standard of a secular society)


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Alex
 


Posts: 292 | Posted: 04:17 AM on November 28, 2002 | IP
Exxoss

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The baby is not alive and can feel nothing - sure, in the future, it will be alive, but then again put yourself in a situation were having a baby, you die, abortion, you live.

I think most people who dont want babies (teens) would choose themselves over the baby.


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I am Exxoss, come to save you all from your impending doom!!!!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

-Exxoss
 


Posts: 438 | Posted: 10:57 AM on November 28, 2002 | IP
madbilly

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The thing about abotion that bothers me the most is that it is liberals that are for it and conservatives that are against it. Liberals are also the same people against capitol punishment and are also animal rights activist.  So it is wrong to hurt animals in any way and it is wrong to sentence MURDERES to death, but it is okay to kill a fetus that is itself alive, until we know for certain that it feels no pain, i dont think we should do anything in the way of abortion.


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my name is madbilly....what did you expect me to be happy when my name says Mad in it...
 


Posts: 451 | Posted: 12:26 AM on November 29, 2002 | IP
AlexanderTheGreat

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how can something feel pain if it has no developed nerves?


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Alex
 


Posts: 292 | Posted: 11:47 AM on November 29, 2002 | IP
Exxoss

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It can't.

And also, this debate is not on liberals and conservaticves, and while they do have screwed up visions, it doesnt change the topic :-)

The problem with society is that permiscuosity in teens has grown; now, more teens have sex than ever.  And they want to get abortions.  If there was less teens sleeping around, we wouldnt have that problem.


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I am Exxoss, come to save you all from your impending doom!!!!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

-Exxoss
 


Posts: 438 | Posted: 09:13 AM on December 1, 2002 | IP
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Why do you think promiscuity is wrong?  Many people think the bible says that sex outside of marriage is a sin.  But the bible is unclear.  In Exodus, chapter 20, in the 10 commandments, we are told you should not commit adultery.  Adultery is not defined as having sex outside of marriage.  It is defined as having sex with a married person.  Nothing is said prohibiting sexual relations btween two unmarried people.  In fact, in Leviticus we are given a list of every situation in which we should not have sex.  We're not to have sex with married people, or with family members, or with animals.  We are not prohibited from having sex with an unmarried person who is not in our family.

Some places in the bible state that fornication is a sin.  Some interpret that to mean sex outside of marriage.  That is not true.  The greek translation identifies fornication as being any "illicit (illegal) sexual acitivity".  But in Leviticus the bible does not mention sex between two unmarried people as being illicit.  In fact, we read where some of God's greatest leaders, such as King David (who God called a man "after his own heart"), had hundreds of wives and hundreds of unmarried concubines (women kept in the house for the purpose of sex).  None of these were considered sins.  It is only when David had sex with another man's wife that he committed the sin of adultery.
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 10:54 AM on December 1, 2002 | IP
fallingupwards84

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i'm a liberal and i'm against both the death penalty and abortion. i think all killing is wrong.


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 1:18 PM on December 1, 2002 | IP
hooyah

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I don't appreciate you (Alex) projecting your values onto me.  Everyone has their own definition of "right and wrong."

If everyone's defines "wrong" as 'something that causes suffering,' how easy it would be for you to persuade people that abortion is not "wrong." --assuming that the zygote/embryo doesn't feel anything.

My idea of "wrong" is anything that someone does to decrease the quality of LIFE of another person.

For the life of me I can't understand why it's considered "right" to prevent a baby from being born; completely robbing it from the chance to live.

Another point I should make is that by allowing abortions to take place, it sets a bad precedent; and if left unchecked, the term "abortion" will evolve into a form of birth control, giving women the mindset that they don't have to be careful, "If I get pregnant, I'll just have an abortion" will become commonplace, putting abortions on the same level as any other doctor visit; such as having your teeth cleaned.

Abortion is a bad idea all around, we can't allow ourselves to evolve into such a careless and irresponsible people.

And by the way, those of you arguing in favor of abortion, could you please say something besides, "It can't feel anything!"

Humor me, and instead give me your thoughts on whether or not you think it's wrong to prevent a life from forming.
I think most of us against abortion are aware of the fact that "it" doesn't feel it at the early stages, so don't insult our intelligence, let's argue this thing on some kind of common ground.


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A just government has nothing to fear from an armed citizenry!
 


Posts: 110 | Posted: 12:11 AM on December 3, 2002 | IP
thistownwilleatu

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Hey hooyah, sorry to get off topic but it just hit me what your little avatar thingy is.  Is that off of robin hood for nintendo?  Ah, childhood, and maybe a little adulthood too....


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"The greatest evil is not done in those sordid dens of evil that Dickens loved to paint ... but is conceived and ordered (moved, seconded, carried and minuted) in clear, carpeted, warmed, well-lighted offices, by quiet men with white collars and cut fingernails and smooth-shaven cheeks who do not need to raise their voices." - Thomas Merton

"I thank my God for every remembrance of you." - Paul
 


Posts: 341 | Posted: 09:09 AM on December 3, 2002 | IP
AlexanderTheGreat

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hooyah...
you don't appreciate me pushing my values onto you???
too bad. it's a debate forum. go home and cry about it.
in another thread you are arguing that my entire sexual orientation is not "right", so don't be such a hypocrite and get over yourself.
and thanks for agreeing that if one recognizes the zygote/whatchamacallit feels nothing, it then becomes easy to accept abortion as not "wrong".
your definition of wrong is anything done to someone that decreases their QUALITY of life. how does aborting a fetus decrease the quality of irs life? decrease means go from high to lower. what higher level was the QUALITY of a fetus that it is brought down from?
some how i doubt women will ever come to see abortions as casually as getting your teeth cleaned. i find it interesting that you say that though, since one of the common arguments of pro-lifers is that the experience of abortion is so traumatizing to women. now they're in danger of thinking it is no big deal?
no, i don't think i will change my argument. if you agree the fetus feels nothing, then we are ALREADY on common ground. i think you just have no response to this, so you want to talk about something else. ok, i'll humor you. yes, i do think it is ok to stop a life from forming. why? because it feels nothing. hohoho



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Alex
 


Posts: 292 | Posted: 11:33 AM on December 3, 2002 | IP
thistownwilleatu

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This is kind of juvenile and I'll go ahead and apologize for such a horrible example, but the fact that a quadropalegic cannot "feel" me amputating his leg does not make it right.  The existence of pain is no way to determine whether or not I exist as a human being.  Does my humanity stop under anesthesia and resume upon my awakening?  This sounds retarded, but it seems like to me with your definition of life and "right and wrong" being tied up in pain, I could kill as many people as I want as long as I put them out first.  

Oh, and I think I found a dependable non biased site that can tell us when a fetus begins to feel pain: 8 weeks according to webmd.com.  The electrical charges from the nociceptors (pain receptors) has been measured at 8 weeks and found to be equivalent and sometimes higher than the average adult.  

Here's another interesting fact, during the end of pregnancy and during birth and infants noniceptors almost completely shut off, so the infant can go through what would otherwise be a painful birthing process, just another step farther and these newborns by the "no pain-no life" definition and they wouldn't be humans.  


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"The greatest evil is not done in those sordid dens of evil that Dickens loved to paint ... but is conceived and ordered (moved, seconded, carried and minuted) in clear, carpeted, warmed, well-lighted offices, by quiet men with white collars and cut fingernails and smooth-shaven cheeks who do not need to raise their voices." - Thomas Merton

"I thank my God for every remembrance of you." - Paul
 


Posts: 341 | Posted: 11:49 AM on December 3, 2002 | IP
thistownwilleatu

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I think a better answer to what makes us human is what sets us apart from everything else, 46 chromosomes.  An answer that is neither religious nor philosophical, something we all agree on.  When the sperm fertilizes the egg, the result is 46 chromosomes.  humans are the only beings that have that specific number.  Nothing new will be added from the time of union of sperm and egg until the death of the old man or woman except growth and development of what is already there at the beginning. All he needs is time to develop and mature.



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"The greatest evil is not done in those sordid dens of evil that Dickens loved to paint ... but is conceived and ordered (moved, seconded, carried and minuted) in clear, carpeted, warmed, well-lighted offices, by quiet men with white collars and cut fingernails and smooth-shaven cheeks who do not need to raise their voices." - Thomas Merton

"I thank my God for every remembrance of you." - Paul
 


Posts: 341 | Posted: 12:09 PM on December 3, 2002 | IP
Cool-Hand-Dave

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some handicaps in humans are due to different numbers of chromosomes.  i see your point and i agree, but you do have to bear in mind that not all humans have 46 chromosomes.  


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Cool Hand Dave
 


Posts: 134 | Posted: 6:29 PM on December 3, 2002 | IP
thistownwilleatu

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Oh I'm not saying that I believe 48 chromosomes is all that makes us human, I'm saying that it could be considered as an argument, I personally don't think we will ever be able to put our finger on a single trait or characteristic that can categorize us as humans or otherwise without major flaws.  

What I am saying is that we really have no idea what "life" is or when it begins, and based by our actions we, as a society, always give life the benefit of a doubt, we dig through world trade center rubble long after hope is gone, we leave people on life support for years, etc.  it seems that in everything besides pregnancy we always choose the pursuit of life when faced with doubt and uncertainty.  We have no idea when life begins, therefore we are not in a position to make a decision.  We can't even agree with what "life" is, so who are we to judge when it is ok to take it?


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"The greatest evil is not done in those sordid dens of evil that Dickens loved to paint ... but is conceived and ordered (moved, seconded, carried and minuted) in clear, carpeted, warmed, well-lighted offices, by quiet men with white collars and cut fingernails and smooth-shaven cheeks who do not need to raise their voices." - Thomas Merton

"I thank my God for every remembrance of you." - Paul
 


Posts: 341 | Posted: 9:43 PM on December 3, 2002 | IP
thistownwilleatu

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I meant 46 chromo's there...oops.  I wouldn't bother but some of you nitpicking bloodsuckers would have a field day.  Just kidding.


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"The greatest evil is not done in those sordid dens of evil that Dickens loved to paint ... but is conceived and ordered (moved, seconded, carried and minuted) in clear, carpeted, warmed, well-lighted offices, by quiet men with white collars and cut fingernails and smooth-shaven cheeks who do not need to raise their voices." - Thomas Merton

"I thank my God for every remembrance of you." - Paul
 


Posts: 341 | Posted: 9:50 PM on December 3, 2002 | IP
AlexanderTheGreat

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why is everyone having such trouble understanding my argument here? read over my posts. I am not merely saying the defining line is pain or no pain. I am talking about awareness. change in awareness. a quadrapalegic may not feel his leg being cut off, but just knowing it was cut off (especially when he might get his feeling back one day) is suffering (and no this is not the same as a fetus, because a fetus has NEVER been aware...there is NO change of status in awarness). how does anesthesia ever factor into my argument? the person was aware before they were put under, and if they are not allowed to be come aware again (by being killed under anesthesia), that would be permanently changing their state of awareness. again, a fetus has NEVER been aware. the analogies make no sense. ok, 8 weeks. sounds fine to me. make abortions illegal after 8 weeks. i agree with that. fine.
now, as for this crap about babies feeling no pain when they're birthing, all i have to say is whah???? again, you're totally disregarding my argument in favor of one easier to debunk. i am not just talking about pain. AWARENESS. between 8 weeks and the birth, the baby feels pain, and is becoming aware of its surroundings. if we were to kill it during a later time when it didn't feel pain, that would be changing its awareness, like with the quadrapalegic.
ok, now, i am sure, now that people finally (hopefully) understand what I am saying, i will get a flurry of comments saying, "why is awareness the important thing?? that is, like, so totally arbitrary man!!" well, not really. what is it that we respect about life (i am talking about animals here, not vegetables)? the individual persective of the creature, whether it be a person or you're neighbor's cute dog that you get upset about every time he kicks it. you feel FOR the dog, because you know it is suffering. you feel WITH a friend who just got a great grade on a paper because you know he is happy. that is the connection between all life: empathy. i cannot feel for or with something that itself has never felt anything.


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Alex
 


Posts: 292 | Posted: 9:58 PM on December 3, 2002 | IP
hooyah

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The avatar is one of the choices offered by youdebate.com....I have no idea who it's supposed to be, but that guy looks a lot like me, so i chose him....

As for abortion...
I would be interested in knowing the percentage of 'pro-choicers' who actually have children themselves or plan to have children.

And, to be fair, the percentage of 'pro-lifers' that have children or plan to have them.

I would be willing to bet that most pro-choicers don't have or don't ever plan to have children--And that pro-lifers are just the opposite.

If there is a bias such as this on this issue, will we ever be able to come to an agreement?

Does anyone know of any statistics/demographics on the 'typical' "pro-lifer" and "pro-choicer?"


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A just government has nothing to fear from an armed citizenry!
 


Posts: 110 | Posted: 01:48 AM on December 4, 2002 | IP
Sakata

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yeah, same with me, about the avatar thing I mean, I have no idea who mine is suppose to be either.

I dont know the exact statistics but I know this, a big percentage of woman getting abortions already have kids and just dont want more, and I am pro-life and have no kids (which isnt a very good example because I am 17 but it is still a statistic)


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No time for mediocrity.

People call me a Bible-Thumping reactionist ...and I'm proud to bear the name.
 


Posts: 293 | Posted: 11:43 PM on December 4, 2002 | IP
Cool-Hand-Dave

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this is just my personal take alex, but even if that child hasn't had experiences before 8 weeks, it will do so after that 8 weeks is up.  That fetus will grow up and he/she will play with friends.  He/she we will hurt themselves and hurt others.  He/she will love and hate.  He/she will be gay or straight.  help others, show compassion and disrespect.  acceptance and ridicule.  the fact of the matter is that the fetus will grow up and have experiences not unlike the ones you and i live because we are all human.  and life is one those universally inalieable rights.  you can say thats just a few words mentioned in the american constitution if you want, but life is a right that all should have.  those who have been born and those who have not.  those who have experienced everything life has to offer them and those who have yet to begin to experience anything.

(Edited by Cool-Hand-Dave 12/8/2002 at 04:50 AM).


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Posts: 134 | Posted: 3:28 PM on December 5, 2002 | IP
hooyah

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AMEN! CoolHand
(I mean....mhmm)
Way to go!


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A just government has nothing to fear from an armed citizenry!
 


Posts: 110 | Posted: 5:45 PM on December 6, 2002 | IP
AlexanderTheGreat

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clever touch there, including, "He/she will be gay or straight". Do you think I am that superficial that I will be brown nosed into changing my mind about something?
again, your post was nice and warm and fuzzy, but without much else to it.
why is life a right everyone should have?
this is a question I posed a long time ago, and NO ONE could answer it. NO ONE.
this is a debate forum, so people should have a meatier answer than, "well, dude, cause, you know, like, totally, we should all live and let live man."



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Posts: 292 | Posted: 8:51 PM on December 7, 2002 | IP
Cool-Hand-Dave

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alex, i'm not trying to brown-nose you.  i was trying to state facts.  maybe a few that might help you closer relate to what i was saying.  i don't know that i can answer your question.  i don't know that anyone can.  some things in life just are.  thats it.  its that simple.  there is no rhyme or reason to it.  it just is.  life is like that.  the right to live is like that.  it is there.  

i know, alex, that you will delight in tearing this post to shreds.  go for it.  just know ahead of time that it will be pointless to me.  we obviously very much disagree on this particular facet of the debate and neither one of us seems to willing to bend.  i, like you, and not so superficial as to have my mind changed by any amount of your so-called logic.  i am not so closed off and, oh heaven forbid and alex forgive for what i'm about to suggest, maybe even insecure to think that there has to be an answer for everything.


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Posts: 134 | Posted: 04:59 AM on December 8, 2002 | IP
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The only pro-life people I admire are the ones that hold true to their reasoning by being against capital punishment; and do not spout off  what would be hypocritical crap about getting the government off our backs, since they want the government on the backs of pregnant women.
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 08:44 AM on December 8, 2002 | IP
meditate

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As i was reading all the posts on this subject, I was thinking of a long paragraph i could type about it, but i've decided to make it simple: Abortion is MURDER.


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Meditate
 


Posts: 33 | Posted: 08:49 AM on December 8, 2002 | IP
fallingupwards84

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both abortion and the death penalty are murder and need to be made illegal


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 8:01 PM on December 8, 2002 | IP
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Oh yes Alex I'm sure dave would do ANYTHING to gain your approval, wouldn't we all?  I think I speak for everyone in this forum when I say that we wish nothing more than for you, the almighty god of debate and logic, to smile upon us in all your brilliant glory.  Come on.  I'm sure we're all impressed with your little question and your magnificent grasp of logic and philosophy.  Unfortunatly it is all to easy to use logic and philosophy as a means or a weapon and completely negate the actual "purpose".  We are trying to debate the moral standing of abortion.  Everyone in this debate, including you, believes in the value of human life, of any life for that matter, we've gotten past that, thousands of years have proven such a right SHOULD exist, for the betterment of self and society.  That is all we need, and that is your answer, we have seen the proof in the holocaust, and the sniper shootings in new england, to name a few.  That is all we need.  I know that you're going to say "So you're simply accepting waht youre parents, society, blah blah blah has told you."  Quite simply, yes.  I think I speak for everyone when I say that we don't care about your question.  Oh and by the way maybe you could find the flaw in this argument and "prove" to me it is wrong.

God is love
Love is blind
Ray Charles is blind
Therefore, Ray Charles is God

Why are you here?  Can you prove that you exist?  Can you prove that I exist?  Can you prove that the world around you exists?  


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"The greatest evil is not done in those sordid dens of evil that Dickens loved to paint ... but is conceived and ordered (moved, seconded, carried and minuted) in clear, carpeted, warmed, well-lighted offices, by quiet men with white collars and cut fingernails and smooth-shaven cheeks who do not need to raise their voices." - Thomas Merton

"I thank my God for every remembrance of you." - Paul
 


Posts: 341 | Posted: 10:11 PM on December 8, 2002 | IP
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Thistown, I could really get to like you!

I feel exactly the same way.

It seems that Alex ALWAYS wants to put others' posts down by saying they aren't 'logical.'

You can't argue everything, especially an issue such as abortion, on logic alone.
The issue is whether or not it is ethical to abort an unborn CHILD.

Alex, I would say, further, that  you must not have a HEART at all, man!

Is everything about logic, logic, logic, science, science, science to you?

Is there ANYTHING in your life that you believe in and STAND UP for just because you KNOW that it is morally right?  Or do you have to have the logic behind EVERYTHING?

Have a heart, Alex!

Well said, Thistown!

peace


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Posts: 110 | Posted: 11:16 PM on December 8, 2002 | IP
fallingupwards84

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i think we should all vote alex out of this forum


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 02:44 AM on December 9, 2002 | IP
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why would you wont to vote someone off of a debate forum, i think that his logic works for him where spirituality works for others. If no one debated with logic then there would be far less to rebute and debate making many topics die out quickly and vaugely. We need as many points of view in here as possible for more ideas for us to applaud or to rebute. For example the peace in the middle east debate would have ended long ago and would probaly still be dormant but i said to myself "self...no one has posted ther in a while and this is an important topic, so why dont you renew it with some outlandish post that will get peoples attention" so i did and that was a long time ago but now the topic has expanded and has been posted in by many recently. Differeng points of view and reasoning behind beliefs is entertaining. I honestly despise the homosexuality and abortion threads but i read the post in the forums anyways just to see what people say. Most of the post in those two topics are generally religion based and do nothing more but lead into circles....this is where logic steps in, also logic is unbiased and can solve some religious debates people might have.


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my name is madbilly....what did you expect me to be happy when my name says Mad in it...
 


Posts: 451 | Posted: 03:39 AM on December 9, 2002 | IP
fallingupwards84

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ok madbilly, i was just kidding when i said we should kick him out. no need to take everything seriously


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 09:05 AM on December 9, 2002 | IP
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The real debate is not whether abortion is good, bad, right or wrong, but whether a million women a year should have access to safe legal abortions or dangerous illegal ones.  Women are going to have abortions no matter what the laws say.  So the only question is will they be safe or unsafe.
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 09:33 AM on December 9, 2002 | IP
meditate

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if you ask me, i think that if women are stupid enough to abort their babies, they should have to do it on their own. No dr. assistance. With some cotton balls, a bottle of peroxide, a coat hanger, and a vacuum cleaner. I think that would teach women not to have abortions. Even if only a few saw the light finally out of a million. A few is better than none.
--->And about planet overcrowding: we need as many people as we can get to colonize deep space :D <---joke


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Posts: 33 | Posted: 10:48 AM on December 9, 2002 | IP
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hey guest, your logic doesnt make sense. i think we both agree that making stealing illegal does not prevent stealing from happening in all cases. so does that mean we should make stealing legal? of course not. same thing with abortion.


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 3:08 PM on December 9, 2002 | IP
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Madbilly, I wasn't saying that logic doesn't have its place in the debate.  But you can't base every single thing on LOGIC alone!

People are not robots!  Our lives aren't all about DATA and NUMBERS and STATISTICS!

Yes, we do have brains, But we also have a spirit...Neither one can function without the other....the key is to find a balance between the two.


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Posts: 110 | Posted: 4:48 PM on December 9, 2002 | IP
AlexanderTheGreat

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wow.

okay, i really pissed people off. cool.

i never said i was better than everyone else. sheesh, this is a debate forum. none of us even know each other.
this town...you said...
"Unfortunatly it is all to easy to use logic and philosophy as a means or a weapon and completely negate the actual "purpose".  We are trying to debate the moral standing of abortion."
please enumerate for me the other more important, or equally important, means of arriving at a good, and insightful decision about something? logic is totally appropriate for discussing morality (but i will end the stupid "is is wrong to kill?" thing).
how else should people of different religions (or none at all) debate morality? or legality?
do you think Socrates would have been like, "oh well logic is fine and dandy, but citing religious rhetoric also gets you to the truth just as quickly!"?

now...hooyah...

you say "It seems that Alex ALWAYS wants to put others' posts down by saying they aren't 'logical.'

You can't argue everything, especially an issue such as abortion, on logic alone.
The issue is whether or not it is ethical to abort an unborn CHILD."
hmmm...so it's better to put down peoples' posts by saying that their arguments are really just derived from an inability to have normal male relationships????

what else should we use to discuss abortion? you say "spirit". what does that mean?
I have no heart? that's just plain stupid. because I think laws should be based on impartial judgements, which must come from logic, and not sentiment, i have no heart?? what you really mean is I have no heart because MY sentiment is not the SAME as yours.

falling upwards...
you agree with these other guys, but then in your last post you say, "hey guest, your logic doesnt make sense." oh, but it doesn't have to, cause guest has plenty of "spirit"!





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Posts: 292 | Posted: 01:05 AM on December 10, 2002 | IP
thistownwilleatu

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When have I ever used religious rhetoric in anything but the religion forum?  I make a point not to.


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"The greatest evil is not done in those sordid dens of evil that Dickens loved to paint ... but is conceived and ordered (moved, seconded, carried and minuted) in clear, carpeted, warmed, well-lighted offices, by quiet men with white collars and cut fingernails and smooth-shaven cheeks who do not need to raise their voices." - Thomas Merton

"I thank my God for every remembrance of you." - Paul
 


Posts: 341 | Posted: 01:17 AM on December 10, 2002 | IP
    
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