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Armaski

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A lot of people don't seem to think about something:

Did the baby need to exist in the first place?

We seem to haggle over whether the baby is sentient or if it's aware when it's developing inside the mother, but we don't consider that the baby was dragged into existence and life without a choice, and once someone has given a gift so beautiful such as life should parents be able to decide whether their child lives or dies and let it be legal if they choose death?  I mean, really, sexual intercourse between a male and a female is not a necessary part of a relationship, yet people do it anyway.  And then this baby comes into the picture and they're upset?  They don't want it?  What did they expect, that they could have their pleasure and it couldn't possibily bring them responsibility because their own acts weren't responsible?  If they don't want the baby then I really pity them, because they just have to be so immature and selfish.  Good, if they don't want the child then odds are they wouldn't be good parents, but there ARE people out there that do want babies and can't have their own.  We cannot succumb to the level where we permit the act of murder only when the victim can't have it's say and nobody actually sees it.


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Disagree? Feel free to IM me on AIM at Armaski to discuss it.
 


Posts: 7 | Posted: 11:49 PM on June 24, 2004 | IP
ccunn69

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People decided many years ago to form societies.  Societies preserve people's rights to live, especially the weak.  If people did not travel in groups, only the strong would survive.  As societies have evolved over many of thousands of years, they have been enforced with many different kinds of rules that have evolved with them.  These rules were made so that there would be a purpose to live and a common connection between human beings.  Different societies have and always will have different beliefs and rules.  If you chose not to live by these society's rules, you would either be cast out and would have to survive on your own or join another society.  Or you would be beheaded.  Either way, we find ourselves in a pretty fortunate situation in America where do not have to worry about these alternatives.  The beliefs of this nation are so diverse that it was decided along time ago to create a society where the individual would be allowed to have their own opinion, but would have to follow the rules set forth by the society.  The advantage is that the rules set forth could be changed as seen fit.  

Currently, we live in a society where the weak are allowed to live and individual choice is highly valued.  

I am against abortion.  It is for the weak that choose not to accept responsibility.  Those are my beliefs, but, with the current society we live in, we cannot feasibly outlaw abortion because we have chosen to preserve the rights of the individual.  Even if you throw the bible and every other religion at outlawing abortion, it has no relevance to the way our society is set up.  If everybody in our society were the same religion and same race (as in most foreign countries), the decision would be easy.  

America is still a very young country.  We have no culture or core beliefs as a whole because we are so diverse.  The only culture we have is to defend our individual rights and believe that this country was set up to protect them.    

Therefore, even though abortion may be very wrong in the eyes of the spiritually inhabited and the eyes of the morally righteous, it is not right (in this country and in this time) to force other people to abide by their beliefs in such an extreme manner as this one.  There are certain beliefs in which you have to adopt in order to live in this society, such as accepting the consequence of killing another fellow human being.  For those who believe abortion is killing, right now there is no consequence for it, but in time, perhaps, there will be conclusive evidence of life.  But until then, life is still so mysterious and unexplainable that we cannot determine who is in the right.  There are too many variables such as rape and too many “would if’s” to come to a conclusion to make abortion illegal.  On the other hand, a very good “would if” to ponder is what if you get a terrible infection in one of your sexual organs and that “would have been” aborted child  would have grown up to discover a cure that would save your ability to reproduce?  It is a tough call, but there is just too much we don’t know to outlaw it right now.

For those who believe that there is no “wrong”; without that “wrong” and these rules set forth, our society would not exist as a cohesive unit.  Without the rules, the weak would not survive and people would not be allowed to express themselves without the fear of being shot in the face.  People would start to form their own societies on a much smaller scale such as gangs, which would in turn apply their own rules within that gang and those who oppose them.    Russia is a good example of a country breaking down.  Our society is simply a gang of gangs, of gangs, and so on.  We all just choose to live together on the same piece of land and agree to abide by certain overall rules.  

Only time will tell, but right now, we can only adopt certain beliefs set forth by this society.  The most important is the right to express these beliefs, but accept to live peacefully with those who feel differently

 


Posts: 2 | Posted: 12:20 PM on July 2, 2004 | IP
Muffility-12

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"I am against abortion.  It is for the weak that choose not to accept responsibility.  Those are my beliefs, but, with the current society we live in, we cannot feasibly outlaw abortion because we have chosen to preserve the rights of the individual."

Ah, so it sounds like you're going for the "personally opposed, but the decision should be left to the mother" argument. It's very similar to the bumper sticker "against abortion? don't have one." It's how I used to feel on the issue. It seems like a resonable position to many people. Sadly, it is a DEEPLY flawed argument. In fact, this argument was used to justify legal slavery in the 19th century. many people took up the position "well, I'm personally against slavery, but I think it should be left up to the individual. I simply don't think the government has a right to regulate the issue." The point is, NOBODY has the "right to choose" to cause physical harm to another person (except in self defense). What about the "individual rights" of the victim, in this case the unborn? If something is murder, it should be banned. Period.

"What if she is 13 years old and was raped? "

pro-choice people like to use the most dire cases to justify abortion. I'm willing to allow legal abortion in these very rare, dire cases. However, well over 90 percent of abortions are performed on a healthy embryo/fetus on a healthy woman who was NOT raped.  Just because something is acceptable less than 10 percent of the time doesn't mean it's acceptable over 90 percent of the time.

-muff12
 


Posts: 8 | Posted: 4:31 PM on July 27, 2004 | IP
JJ

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Quote from Cool-Hand-Dave at 4:14 PM on November 11, 2002 :
i think everybody should check out some of the abortion facts on this site:

http://abortiontv.com/AnswersToProChoice.htm#The%20Fetus%20is%20part%20of



Facts? which facts are you referring to?




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Womens rights are just that: rights.
 


Posts: 21 | Posted: 5:35 PM on September 7, 2004 | IP
JJ

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Quote from Calligirl at 8:30 PM on January 30, 2003 :
Hmmm...let's see. You are the fetus of a mother who wants an abortion. You have a few choices:

a.) You can suffocate to death from salt burning your lungs.

Saline isn't used anymore, so this is irrelevant.

b.) You can have each limb cut off and then have your head chopped off.

Second trimester method. approx 90% of abortions are carried out in the first trimester. Besides which, at this stage medicine states that the fetus can't feel pain and isn't self-aware

c.) You can be pulled halfway out of your mother and then get your brains sucked out.

A small percentage of abortions are carried out this way. Please note: fetal abnormalities can't be detected until later on in the pregnancy

d.) You can never be aborted and either be adopted by a family who wants you (there are many loving families on waiting lists for adoption).

Both the mother and father have to consent to adoption, any member of either side of the family can go for custody, so adoption is not always an option.







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Womens rights are just that: rights.
 


Posts: 21 | Posted: 5:39 PM on September 7, 2004 | IP
ThePunkyPickle

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Actually, it is a scientific fact that the fetus can feel pain at around nine weeks after conception, which is during the first trimester.  By then, the nervous system is developed enough to feel pain.  Brain activity has been detected in response to noxious (harmful) stimuli in nine week old fetuses.  The majority of abortions are performed in the 8-12 week range, meaning that most abortions are performed on fetuses that can feel themselves being ripped apart.

http://www.all.org/abort.htm


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Did you know?
-4,000 babies are aborted every DAY in the U.S.
-Over 40,000,000 babies have been aborted since abortion was made legal in 1973.
-Abortion is legal in the U.S. at any point during the 9 months of pregnency, and for any reason.
 


Posts: 8 | Posted: 5:59 PM on September 9, 2004 | IP
JJ

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Quote from ThePunkyPickle at 5:59 PM on September 9, 2004 :
Actually, it is a scientific fact that the fetus can feel pain at around nine weeks after conception, which is during the first trimester.  


Scientific fact. Really. Funny how no independent medical body believes it...

The American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists

Statement on Pain of the Fetus
We know of no legitimate scientific information that supports the statement that a fetus experiences pain early in pregnancy.

We do know that the cerebellum attains its final configuration in the seventh month and that mylenization (or covering) of the spinal cord and the brain begins between the 20th and 40th weeks of pregnancy. These, as well as other neurological developments, would have to be in place for the fetus to receive pain.

To feel pain, a fetus needs neurotransmitted hormones. In animals, these complex chemicals develop in the last third of gestation. We know of no evidence that humans are different.

(http://www.acog.org/)

The issue of fetal pain was addressed by a working group appointed by the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists in the United Kingdom. The panel consisted of experts in fetal development, law and bioethics. Dr. Anne McLaren headed the group. She commented: "Fetal awareness of pain is a very emotive topic, of particular concern to pregnant women, but we have tried to approach it without preconceptions, to examine the scientific evidence dispassionately, and to identify areas where further research is urgently needed.'' 1

The group determined that pain can only be felt by a fetus after nerve connections became established between two parts of its brain: the cortex and the thalamus. This happens about 26 weeks from conception. Professor Maria Fitzgerald of University College London, author of the working group's report, says that "little sensory input" reaches the brain of the developing fetus before 26 weeks. "Therefore reactions to noxious stimuli cannot be interpreted as feeling or perceiving pain." 10

http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_pain.htm

American Pain society

Prior to 26 weeks, the thalamocortical fibers have not yet penetrated the cortical plate, and it seems unlikely the cortical structures considered necessary for pain are responding to noxious stimulation (Mrzljak, Uylings, Kostovic, & van Eden, 1988).

(http://www.ampainsoc.org/pub/bulletin/jul03/article1.htm)


 
Quote from ThePunkyPickle at 5:59 PM on September 9, 2004 :
The majority of abortions are performed in the 8-12 week range, meaning that most abortions are performed on fetuses that can feel themselves being ripped apart


Only they're not ripped apart at this stage- they're so small that they stay intact and die of lack of oxygen. In a medical abortion they're always intact.

Quote from ThePunkyPickle at 5:59 PM on September 9, 2004 :
http://www.all.org/abort.htm


The american life league as a scientific source? are you kidding? Bias.
[b][/b][b]


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Womens rights are just that: rights.
 


Posts: 21 | Posted: 06:11 AM on September 10, 2004 | IP
Cush

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Wow.

Abortion is gross as heck.

Anyways, the Original question was whether 3rd trimester abortions should be allowed.

Nope.

No abortion should be allowed, except if mommy is going to die.  

Hopefully, one day, medical science will be able to repair almost all neonatal developmental issues, thereby avoiding as much abortion as possible.

If you dont' want your parents, you don't just kill them.  And vise versa.
 


Posts: 13 | Posted: 12:34 PM on July 21, 2005 | IP
cheekymonkeynatalie

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in Matthew 28:18-20 we have been taught to spread the word of God and to teach them to ‘observe all things whatsoever I commended you’. We are taught not to kill (Exodus 20:13; Deuteronomy 5:17) and Jesus tells a parable, of when we visited someone sick, we visited Him (Matthew 25:31). Whatever we do to one person, we do to Jesus.

Another example of this is at the end of the Mass, when we are told to ‘Go in peace to love and serve the Lord’, going in peace means ensuring that everyone is living in peace, how can we live at peace when others are at war? Mother Teresa said ‘If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other’. We all belong to God, yet we all have free will, free will to speak out.

How are we promoting peace, when in reality, we are accepting killing in circumstances, such as euthanasia, capital punishment and abortion. As Christians we should stand up for our faith, which means killing is never acceptable, even if the law legalises it.

In the state Georgia, they are aiming to make a law stating that once a woman becomes pregnant, she cannot have the choice for an abortion. This will decrease the amount of foetus mortality rate.

Abortion is never right, as it is killing a human being, who has rights. No circumstance justifies the reason to abort a child. From the moment of conception the child has rights, which mean if you kill the child, you are, in effect, committing murder.

If the mother and baby’s lives are at risk then no one should be ‘sacrificed’ for the other. The mother has brought this baby into the world out of love, therefore, she should be prepared to sacrifice herself, for the love of her child.

ABORTION IS NOTHING LESS THAN MURDER!
 


Posts: 5 | Posted: 08:25 AM on February 26, 2006 | IP
cheekymonkeynatalie

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Also, I have been reading through your excuses for abortion, mainly which concern rape. Rape is not a reason it is mearly an excuse. Only 1% of abortions are actually down to rape & thats a fact.

80% of down syndrome babies are aborted. Our society is sick. We're killing the weak & sick!

I'm only 16, yet I know what is moral, & not. It's a shame the majority of the world don't see what I see...

 


Posts: 5 | Posted: 08:41 AM on February 26, 2006 | IP
Rho

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Perhaps that should be a clue to examine what you believe is moral a bit more closely.
 


Posts: 8 | Posted: 12:21 AM on March 8, 2006 | IP
reasonn

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cheekymonkeynatalie:
Abortion is never right, as it is killing a human being, who has rights. No circumstance justifies the reason to abort a child. From the moment of conception the child has rights, which mean if you kill the child, you are, in effect, committing murder.

cheeky - what makes a human being a human being? Are you suggesting that all that is necessary for a human being to be a human being is that there exists human DNA in the cell clusters of a zygote? Isn't there a soul involved too?

When we die, the spark of life in our brains fades-out and it's that threshold  that lets us know our soul has left. It's possible however, even after our soul has left for doctors to maintain our  body's functions and metabolism for minutes, days, weeks, even years I suppose if they tried. My point being that it's not the body that defines us as being alive, its our soul. If our body is no longer capable of supporting the soul, our soul leaves and we are dead, even though the life of body continues.

Our soul requires a body capable of supporting it, and an embryo body does not have the capability to support a soul within its body for months into a pregnancy. That spark of life that occurs in our brains does not happen right away.

An abortion doesn't kill anyone because there's no one there yet to be killed.

...
 


Posts: 10 | Posted: 6:59 PM on March 8, 2006 | IP
cheekymonkeynatalie

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I don't understand why you believe killing to be so moral. I could never have an abortion, maybe that's because I'm Catholic, that I see things this way. However I am not a bible loving, church lover. I know what is moral and wrong. I'm sure you know in yourself that abortion can never be justified.

Someone in my year just had an abortion, on the outside she doesn't feel sorry at all...still having sex every weekend. But really, I'm sure, on the inside she's crying out. That's how she shuts it out.

If you are 'mature' enough have sex, you obviously must be 'mature' enough for a baby.

God didn't create us so we could kill our unborn children.
 


Posts: 5 | Posted: 2:03 PM on March 21, 2006 | IP
Prototype

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Quote from reasonn at 6:59 PM on March 8, 2006 :
cheekymonkeynatalie:
Abortion is never right, as it is killing a human being, who has rights. No circumstance justifies the reason to abort a child. From the moment of conception the child has rights, which mean if you kill the child, you are, in effect, committing murder.

cheeky - what makes a human being a human being? Are you suggesting that all that is necessary for a human being to be a human being is that there exists human DNA in the cell clusters of a zygote? Isn't there a soul involved too?

When we die, the spark of life in our brains fades-out and it's that threshold  that lets us know our soul has left. It's possible however, even after our soul has left for doctors to maintain our  body's functions and metabolism for minutes, days, weeks, even years I suppose if they tried. My point being that it's not the body that defines us as being alive, its our soul. If our body is no longer capable of supporting the soul, our soul leaves and we are dead, even though the life of body continues.

Our soul requires a body capable of supporting it, and an embryo body does not have the capability to support a soul within its body for months into a pregnancy. That spark of life that occurs in our brains does not happen right away.

An abortion doesn't kill anyone because there's no one there yet to be killed.

...


If a human body is still active, then the soul remains. (Unless you say you have a different idea on what a soul is)

Certain bits of the body (such as the heart) may beat for a certain amount of time even when the person is dead. A few organs running doesn't mean the person is alive you know.

And anyway, you cannot destroy a soul. Someone physically alive always has a soul. A baby (However early it may be in its life) is alive, and aborting it means killing it. You kill that baby, THEN the soul leaves its body. You can't say a baby doesn't have a soul simply because its brain isn't fully active yet. It is ALIVE, and the soul only leaves the body when it DIES. A baby is not dead and not in the process of dying; quite the opposite in fact.




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I want to know facts for both sides, and I will not take biased words as a valid arguement for whatever reason.
 


Posts: 31 | Posted: 5:28 PM on March 25, 2006 | IP
Aussie Hype

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just a thought. I have seen it defined here that a fetus is alive because it has DNA. so does that mean we shouldnt vacum up hair. I mean sometimes my hair falls out on to the ground and then someone elses falls on top...does that mean those to hairs are alive? should we live in a hair infested house? Its only a thought. If your definig something by being alive by having DNA then clearly we shouldnt wash we shouldnt wax or shave, we should eat meat, we should have a wooden desk, we shouldnt have any medical treatments, so actually we die? RIght?
The life cycle does start when the sperm fuses into the egg. Right we all know that now.
BUT legually its not alive until it takes its first breath.
All these talks about the fetus feeling pain are really not that true. Let me explain. The fetus  nerves system has not started until the activeness of the brain which is caused by the shock of the air hitting them when they are born. Thats why babys live through child brith.
Yes i know people say its murder and all those hypertheticals. BUT its not the easy way out. NEVER IS! Think about it from not ur Pro CHoice Pro life views look at it from a non bias view, would it be harder to go through an abortion go through an adoption and live the rest of your life knowing you used to be pregnant or you gave your baby up? Or keeping it, staying on welfair or working a dead end job not providing you child with everythign that they need? Abortion helps women who need the help. I believe in it. But i dont think i am strong enough to ever do it


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Right to live and right to Die should dempend on the person
 


Posts: 12 | Posted: 06:03 AM on May 8, 2006 | IP
EMyers

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Actually, I'd think it be easier to abstain from sex until you were ready to have a child in the first place.  Then you'd have no chance at getting pregnant, catching AIDs, crabs, herpes, etc.  Ounce of prevention vs pound of cure and all that.


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 09:08 AM on May 8, 2006 | IP
mythrandir

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Quote from Aussie Hype at 06:03 AM on May 8, 2006 :
The life cycle does start when the sperm fuses into the egg. Right we all know that now.
BUT legually its not alive until it takes its first breath.

have you ever considered the possibility that the legal definition is wrong?


Yes i know people say its murdur and all those hypertheticals. BUT its not the easy way out. NEVER IS! Think about it from not ur Pro CHoice Pro life views look at it from a non bias view, would it be harder to go through an abortion go through an adoption and live the rest of your life knowing you used to be pregnant or you gave your baby up? Or keeping it, staying on welfair or working a      end job not providing you child with everythign that they need? Abortion helps women who need the help. I believe in it. But i dont think i am strong enough to ever do it


yeah, it takes more work to arrange for your baby to be taken by an adoption agency than to kil it.  but would you rather live the rest of your life knowing you murdured your baby or knowing you brought a life into the world and gave someone else the great joy of having a child?


(Edited by mythrandir 5/8/2006 at 2:29 PM).
 


Posts: 79 | Posted: 2:26 PM on May 8, 2006 | IP
Aussie Hype

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I wasnt trying to say that giving a baby up for adoption is just as bad as abortion. For those who think abortion is wrong. What i am saying is that its harder for the mother to know A) she had a baby and had it aborted and B) That she has a child somewhere out in the world.
With adoption its not always going to go into a loving family. Sure lots do love. But if you had given a baby up there would be that thought plagin your mind every day that what if they are hurting my child.
Plus I also dont see why that in terms on Incest that people still think Abortion is wrong? The baby will probably have some defect, its not the babys fault nor is it the mothers.


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Right to live and right to Die should dempend on the person
 


Posts: 12 | Posted: 03:29 AM on May 10, 2006 | IP
mythrandir

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Quote from Aussie Hype at 03:29 AM on May 10, 2006 :
Plus I also dont see why that in terms on Incest that people still think Abortion is wrong? The baby will probably have some defect, its not the babys fault nor is it the mothers.

yeah, its not the baby's fault, so why kil it?



 


Posts: 79 | Posted: 09:28 AM on May 10, 2006 | IP
Aussie Hype

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Because it would Probably die anyway from genitic disorders. By bring a baby into the world to just die slowly?


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Right to live and right to Die should dempend on the person
 


Posts: 12 | Posted: 02:19 AM on May 11, 2006 | IP
EMyers

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Yeah, what a life.  Let's just kill off all children with genetic disorders.  Shall we start with my niece?  


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 2:25 PM on May 11, 2006 | IP
Aussie Hype

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No need to be hasty! Ur niece i am guessin its alive so killin her would be what people call murder. But unless the child has taken a breath of air ITS NOT ALIVE.
With the abortion debate it always comes to what people consider to be alive or dead.To me unless the baby is born then its not alive. But i have never been pregnant so i would not know how the mother feels in the given situation. But if i was raped by a stranger or a family member i would not want to bring a baby into this world knowing that everytime i looked into his or hers face that i would see the person who violated me.
People see things differently, hence why this is a debate.


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Right to live and right to Die should dempend on the person
 


Posts: 12 | Posted: 12:23 AM on May 12, 2006 | IP
sarahrahrah

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Quote from Guest at 10:33 AM on September 26, 2002 :
Would you rather have all these unwanted babies growing up in a wirld already stressed by a growing population. The baby isn't concious in the mother's womb during the first trimester, and if you really think about it, the baby would be better off aborted and not knowing than growing up feeling unwanted and unloved


do you think that its only like that for babies that were given up for adoption?
 


Posts: 3 | Posted: 03:48 AM on October 16, 2006 | IP
jenns

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"I am pro-choice because I do not consider this to be murder. I do not consider it to be evil. I do not consider a foetus which a woman has a one in three chance of involuntarily rejecting anyway to be a viable life unless she deems it so. I do not buy this craven sentimentality about the unborn, this pseudo-spiritual cleanliness we ascribe to it. In fact, it makes me sick."

AGREED.


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theres no fun in fundamentalism
 


Posts: 64 | Posted: 2:04 PM on November 5, 2006 | IP
EMyers

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I do not consider a foetus which a woman has a one in three chance of involuntarily rejecting anyway to be a viable life unless she deems it so.

And Hilter didn't consider Jews to worthy of life either.  Let's do it your way.  Everyone gets to make up their own mind who is worthy of life and who isn't.  If someone kills YOU, that's ok because it was his "choice" and we can't concern ourselves with people's personal decisions regardless of whether someone's life is terminated in the process.


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 7:15 PM on November 5, 2006 | IP
jenns

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I don't think you read the statement correctly. I.e. you completely ignored the part where it said that it is NOT murder, and I do find it disturbing that you compare a choice that a woman makes because it is HER body, HER life, and therefore HER decision, to a horrific event that killed six million people actual living breathing human beings because of their race and beliefs, sexual orientation.

If we are doing the old "hitler" thing... hmmm discrimination because of sexual orientation, threatening to kill people because of it... sounds vaguely familiar to some extremist right-wing christians in America.

Funny that.

Do you honestly think that if it was all so obvious that abortion is murder that it would be legalised at all?


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theres no fun in fundamentalism
 


Posts: 64 | Posted: 06:03 AM on November 6, 2006 | IP
EMyers

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Actually, there are a lot of things that are legal (or illegal) that make absolutely no logical sense.  And as I've said before, HER decision was made when SHE decided to have sex (unless you are saying that woman are too stupid to know where babies come from.  is this your stance?).  Abortion is the legal right to KILL someone because they are "crimping your style".  Sounds exactly like Hitler to me.


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 08:12 AM on November 6, 2006 | IP
jenns

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Oh PLEASE.

"Crimping your style"

You ignorant chauvanistic... grrr.

Do you know how utterly ridiculous you sound?

Obviously when a woman has sex she does not always want to get pregnant, and sometimes she does. It's like saying, you shouldn't get treated for a broken bones because you made that choice when you rode your bike. Therefore, lets ban bikes.

But options are still available for women after conception, mistakes happen, and the rest of their lives do not have to be in jeopardy because of something that can she can get rid of.

Im phrasing this crudely because I'm not going to be sentimental, I've heard women say that it's just like having a tumour removed. And why shouldn't it be like that? Why should we pretend that we're so pyschologically scarred by this "tragic" event if we're not?

Yes, it's going to be a very hard decision for some women to make, for example if they're raped, and become pregnant but are against abortion, or if they have to have an abortion to save their life, or simply because they do view it as a baby, and so on.

But for others, it is an easy decision. And why not? One in four women have had abortions, all of those women are going to feel very differently about it. Because we are individuals who make our decisions based on our personal circumstances, not just a group of faceless idiots who can the word "murderers" can be mindlessly thrown upon.

So why are we even discussing this? It has nothing to do with you or me, but the individual herself.


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theres no fun in fundamentalism
 


Posts: 64 | Posted: 08:59 AM on November 6, 2006 | IP
EMyers

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Chauvinist?  Please.  I feel the same way about the man.  We're smart enough to know where babies come from.  If a man drops trout then he is taking on the responsibility of any consequences that come about.  If you have sex you take the risk of catching AIDs.  You take the risk of fathering a baby.  If you are too young and immature to accept the consequences of your decisions keep your stupid fly up.  Why is this so hard for you to accept?


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 09:14 AM on November 6, 2006 | IP
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Yes, a man is responsible.

But this is not about men as their bodies are not affected.

And yet it is men making the majority of decisions about abortion?

So if you have sex and catch AIDs you should not receive treatment and you should have no sympathy because it's your own fault? Is that what you're implying?

I agree that, in an ideal world, everyone would use the morning after pill, the contraceptive pill, condoms and so on. And that they were all 100% effective etc etc

But unfortunately in this world, people make mistakes and accidents happen. Why can't you accept that people are not perfect?


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theres no fun in fundamentalism
 


Posts: 64 | Posted: 09:45 AM on November 6, 2006 | IP
EMyers

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Why can't you accept that there are known consequences to certain actions and that if people decide to do the actions, knowing full well what the consequences are, they should be held responsible for thier actions?  In the United States today, only one percent of all reported AIDs cases are from people who received bad blood transfusions.  In short, if people would abstain from having sex until they are married (and quit injecting themselves with drugs) then AIDs would be wiped out within one generation.  No cure would be needed.  A funny conincidence would be a decreased number of unwanted pregnancies.  Why do you assume people are so weak-willed that they can't help themselves?  


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 11:00 AM on November 6, 2006 | IP
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Not that it matters, but there are other ways of getting AIDs other than blood transfusions, sex and drugs. What about when it is passed down from mother/father to child?

People will never, ever stop having sex before marriage, and they shouldn't either. And yes, it is entirely their responsibility because it's their body. What I am saying is they should be provided with options. We cannot simply blame people for mistakes or circumstances, that is just stupidly worsening the situation.

I am not assuming people are "weak-willed", I am simply saying that if there are options to give then we should give them without question if it will help the individual.


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theres no fun in fundamentalism
 


Posts: 64 | Posted: 11:32 AM on November 6, 2006 | IP
EMyers

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There are options.  It's called abstinence.  Why must we lower the standard to the lowest common denominator?  Why not expect more from people?  If people were actually held responsible for their own decisions we'd all be better off.  


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 12:31 PM on November 6, 2006 | IP
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Of course we would be. But that is not the point. That is not what happens. What happens is people make mistakes. We'd be better off if people did a lot of things differently, but they don't, and we need to accept that and do our best to improve the situation.

Also, seeing as the topic is abortion, many abortions do not come about as choosing not to have a child, many are as a result of something worse than "irresponsibility", such as rape, incest, or a threat to the mother's life, and so on. And these situations should most definitely not punish the female.

Also, sex is a natural thing between two people, I understand if you are a Christian and hold old-fashioned values such as marriage in high regard, but in modern times marriage really doesn't mean much more than a piece of paper, and sex ouside of marriage is commonplace nowadays. My parents said to me that they probably wouldn't have got married if they could go back in time because it has lost its value.

That, however, is a different debate....


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Posts: 64 | Posted: 2:10 PM on November 6, 2006 | IP
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So any time you make a "mistake" you shouldn't be help responsible for it?  Seriously?  That's the argument you're making?  Let's say your parents decided you were a mistake (let's assume, for argument's sake, that you are a minor and they are still "responsible" for you).  How about a post-birth abortion?  After all, you were simply a mistake.  Abortion doesn't kill, it just covers up a mistake, right?  Kind of like an eraser (except that, as with any surgical procedure, you're taking a risk that there are complications that may arise).  Just remember, abortion is the only surgical procedure with a 100% mortality rate.


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 3:20 PM on November 6, 2006 | IP
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"Just remember, abortion is the only surgical procedure with a 100% mortality rate."

FOR GODS SAKE.

Stop throwing these ridiculous cutesy little phrases at me, they really don't work and if anything make me feel quite nauseous.

And yes. It is an option for a woman if she makes a mistake. I'm not arguing with that. I'm not going to over-sentimantalise it. Should a woman decide for whatever reason she pleases that she doesn't want to keep a foetus then she has an option.

Simple. As.

And what exactly is a post-birth abortion?

Murder is not the same as an abortion, because that is ending a life that is already there, that is already a seperate being that has two feet on this earth, and not a foetus that is completely reliant on someone elses body to live.

You are completely bypassing what I'm saying. I'm not saying you shouldn't be held responsible, I'm saying that because YOU are responsible then YOU should make choices to suit YOU. Read how many times ive put that in the last few threads and yet it still didn't get through...

"except that, as with any surgical procedure, you're taking a risk that there are complications that may arise"

Yes, because pregnancy is obviously such a completely easy thing with no complications whatsover. I don't know what all the fuss is about really, it's just like a short cold then a cute little rosy cheeked baby like on the adverts just falls out and everyones happy blah blah blah blah...

Ignorance is bliss isn't it.


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theres no fun in fundamentalism
 


Posts: 64 | Posted: 3:57 PM on November 6, 2006 | IP
EMyers

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that is already a seperate being that has two feet on this earth, and not a foetus that is completely reliant on someone elses body to live

Guess that means a three day old is fair game.  Probably a three month old too.


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 4:22 PM on November 6, 2006 | IP
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yes. because a three month/week etc is clearly a foetus.

"two feet on this earth" wasn't supposed to be taken literally. You know perfectly well what I mean.


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Posts: 64 | Posted: 03:54 AM on November 7, 2006 | IP
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I mean a three month old baby.  Or are you saying a three month old is not completely reliant on someone else to live?  Just remember, you're only here to argue this because your mother accepted the responsibility of her decision.  


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 08:36 AM on November 7, 2006 | IP
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I'm here because my mother was able to make a choice. She made it because it was hers to make and no-one elses, same with abortion, it doesn't matter in this context what you choose because its YOUR body.

A three month old can be provided for by people other than the mother. A foetus relies on one person. If the mother of a 3 month old dies then the baby will not be physically (other than perhaps not gaining a sufficient amount of breast-milk etc) affected by this, correct? If a pregnant woman dies, the foetus will die, because it is part of her, correct? Think of it like E.T. and Elliot if you know what I mean.

Therefore as the foetus is part of that persons body, it is that person's decision as to what they do with it.


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Posts: 64 | Posted: 09:03 AM on November 7, 2006 | IP
EMyers

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If, as you say the fetus dies (I'm assuming you're from England) then that means it is alive.  An abortion, ergo, is nothing more than legal homicide.  Even Roe is trying to get Roe vs Wade overturned.  Now I know that won't affect you over there, but it sure makes one stop and think over here.


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 09:51 AM on November 7, 2006 | IP
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If, as you say the fetus dies (I'm assuming you're from England) then that means it is alive.  An abortion, ergo, is nothing more than legal homicide.  Even Roe is trying to get Roe vs Wade overturned.  Now I know that won't affect you over there, but it sure makes one stop and think over here.


Ed, using your reasoning, one could argue that a tumor or cancerous cell that is "destroyed" is murdered.  And if you are only speaking of the fetus which you and I both agree is a biological human, what about the brainless embryo that is aborted in the first tri-mester ?  What about the zygote that is prevented from developing into an embryo by the morning-after pill?  It is nothing but a mass of undifferentiated cells isn't it--no more human than a tumor...Right?  

No offense, but using sloppy semantics is not going to change people's minds on the abortion issue which is part of the reason why the dialogue that is being forwarded by both sides of this issue does a piss-poor job of changing the minds of the supporters on either side of the issue let alone the fence sitters.  People need to be convinced that having a baby is a good thing.  Giving lectures on personal responsibility and providing definitions of murder, however technically valid, have not caused the number of abortions to drop in any significant number in the USA.  Yet most anti-abortionists continue to utilize this flawed strategy to forward their cause.  

What is your strategy for ending abortions Ed?
 


Posts: 162 | Posted: 10:16 AM on November 7, 2006 | IP
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In answer to you.... i have to borrow from fredguffs statement and say that yes it is alive, but so are cancer cells.

And I completely agree fredguff, "sloppy semantics" really aren't going to convince me or probably others. It really is no use lecturing to people about responsibility when the are already in the situation, as what good will it actually do.

Yes I am from England, where no-one would even dream of overturning the law on abortions, and what makes me stop and think is the horrific consequences should the ban be overturned in America. People will still have abortions, they'll just be the highly dangerous back-street abortions of the past, so in fact the only outcome of a ban may be a higher mortality rate as well as an increase in things such as depression, which will be lovely won't it.

Is that what you want?



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Posts: 64 | Posted: 12:49 PM on November 7, 2006 | IP
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No, I want people to take responsibility for their own actions.  


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 1:40 PM on November 7, 2006 | IP
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Yes, people are taing responsibility for their actions by dealing with them in the way they think best. An abortion IS taking responsibility.

To reiterate... do you think abortions should be banned?


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Posts: 64 | Posted: 2:19 PM on November 7, 2006 | IP
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I think pre-meditated murder should be banned, yes.

And abortion isn't "taking responsibility", it's sweeping it under the rug.  Surely you aren't that naive as to believe abortion is "taking responsiblity".  Please tell me you're not.


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 3:11 PM on November 7, 2006 | IP
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http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,,1932632,00.html

This is very very interesting. Make sure you read all of the stories as they all give very different views from people from a range of backgrounds who have all had different forms of abortion.


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Posts: 64 | Posted: 3:12 PM on November 7, 2006 | IP
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Shall i read a review of a bunch of different murderers from different backgrounds to get an idea on their positions as well?  You come up with a list of interviews with the murdered children and then there can be an equitable discussion.


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 3:16 PM on November 7, 2006 | IP
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No. I want you to read a list of individuals who have a shared experience but have experienced it in different ways.

But why would you want to read something enlightening? I forgot that you definitely are not ignorant. Hmmm...

"Murdered children" - it makes me laugh because it is so so so ridiculous. I do not see it as murder, therefore I find your craven sentimentality very funny indeed.

Of course having an abortion is taking responsibility. It is dealing with one's actions is it not? Pretending that you're not pregnant would be sweeping it under the rug, you have to deal with it eventually but in whatever way you see fit.

I didn't say "pre-meditated murder", I said abortion. As in aborting a foetus.

So you think abortion should be banned, therefore you are condoning highly dangerous backstreet abortions that not only still result in an abortion but also a great deal of harm for the woman having the abortion.

Is that what you want? Because unfortunately that is what would happen. That is what DID happen.


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Posts: 64 | Posted: 3:29 PM on November 7, 2006 | IP
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Ed,

Do you really think screaming "murder" and demanding that people take responsibility for their actions is going to solve the abortion problem?  How well has this strategy worked so far?   Calling somebody irresponsible because they got pregnant maybe a "correct" observation, but how is such name calling going to motivate them to carry their baby to term?  You can't have it both ways Ed.  If premarital pregnancies are "bad" then people will continue to get abortions.
 


Posts: 162 | Posted: 6:18 PM on November 7, 2006 | IP
    
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