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maximus

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This post is intended for those Christians who support or who do not voice opposition to abortion. I ask you to put aside the emotion, politics, science, and rhetoric of the issue. Get down to the fundamental foundation of your Christianity. Consider that your Christianity should form your politics and social view instead of vice versa. Consider that Christianity should be the foundation of your life and your actions in this world. It should be your compass in dealing with abortion.

The meat of the matter. I ask all of you to consider, pray about, think about the teaching of Father Frank Pavone on the matter. He illustrates a remarkable contrast in thought on abortion between abortion supporters and Christ.

Abortion supporters say, "This is my body, I can do with it what I want. I can destroy others to preserve my life. I can destroy others so that I may live as I want. Do not interfere with me."

Whereas, Christ says, "This is my body, which is given up for you."

"This is my body"--same words but much different in intent, in action, in charity, in love, in faith, in hope... Jesus gives his body away so that others live. Abortion proponents cling to their own bodies so that others die.

There is a profound difference. Christian abortion supporters perhaps miss the most basic and fundamental precept of Christianity.

Think about it.


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maximus
 


Posts: 8 | Posted: 7:54 PM on June 18, 2003 | IP
EinMichael

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Quote from maximus at 01:54 AM on June 19, 2003 :

Abortion supporters say, "This is my body, I can do with it what I want. I can destroy others to preserve my life. I can destroy others so that I may live as I want. Do not interfere with me."



Hi,

perhaps there are some abortion supporters, who say
"It´s hard to make the decision, but I am not
able to take the responsability for upbringing
a child, and I want to spare it a life in poverty!"

What about these people, who choose the lesser evil?

Greetings,
Michael
 


Posts: 3 | Posted: 5:25 PM on June 19, 2003 | IP
maximus

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Michael,

I think that the Christian abortion supporter who has an abortion because she does not want to bring a child up in poverty is not acting in the example of Christ as conveyed in my first post.

How is aborting the child a lesser evil than the child growing up in poverty?


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maximus
 


Posts: 8 | Posted: 9:28 PM on June 20, 2003 | IP
jared00004

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first of all let me say I am Christian.

Now...Lets look at this through a biological stand point.  The characteristics to a living creature (not just human) are able to reproduce, maintain homostasis (which a fetus cannot do), have a working blood stream, a pulse (for animals).  Lets see a fetus cannot reproduce, has no pulse or bloodstream (till the 24th day), and cannot maintain homostasis.  Thus IT IS NOT ALIVE.  You cannot kill what is not alive.  It cannot even mildly be considered ''alive'' till the 24th day!!  And weather you like it or not abortion is here to stay, even though it may be regulated.



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Jared
 


Posts: 31 | Posted: 10:50 PM on June 20, 2003 | IP
EinMichael

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Hi,

@maximus:

I only wrote poverty, but what I actually wanted to say, is:

When a becoming mother doesn´t know who´s the father, earns little money and is not able to be responsable for a child, then in
my opinion it´s the better choice, to ruin the existance of a fetus and save the mother´s future, instead of destroying the mother´s life
and rising a child in poverty.

Michael
 


Posts: 3 | Posted: 08:36 AM on June 21, 2003 | IP
maximus

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Michael,

If you are a Christian, you still do not seem to be approaching this from that perspective.

"Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 5:3

A Christian perspective does not consider money, success, fame over children. This is the premise I presented in my first post. All of my arguments in this thread will mainly deal with the way Christians consider abortion. I hope to challenge Christians who favor abortion to reevaluate their viewpoint. I said in my 2nd post that a person aborting due to poverty is not following the example of Christ. Now, there are many times when Christians, including myself, do not follow his example. But my point is that many people do not even consider their Christianity in the situation at all. It is not even on the radar screen in their decision making. Yet they call themselves Christian.

Furthermore, tell me how can you predict the future with certainty?

You assume that there is no joy or happiness in poverty. But you place materialist limitations on people in doing this. Also, history is fraught with examples of rising from poverty to prosperity. Say the mother meets a man 3 weeks after the birth of the child and they fall in love. Say he is willing to accept the child as his own. Maybe she will be motivated by providing for her child and she will get an education and a good job. Etc.


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maximus
 


Posts: 8 | Posted: 09:54 AM on June 21, 2003 | IP
maximus

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Jared,

"Now...Lets look at this through a biological stand point."

But my whole point expressed in the first post is to look at the issue from a Christian perspective. There are a lot of interesting and  engaging biological approaches to this issue but that is not my main concern in this thread.

I will oblige you at any rate on this first post of yours. The zygote that is formed after the egg is fertilized is a genetically distinct entity. This entity grows. How does it grow if it is not alive? Life begins at conception not at birth.


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maximus
 


Posts: 8 | Posted: 10:06 AM on June 21, 2003 | IP
jared00004

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Fungi grows but is not considered a living thing.  I don't believe God would care to be honest.  I HONESTLY believe that i'd rather live no life (not that an aborted baby ever had a life) than a life in some Adoption place in poverty.  Isn't there enough mouths to feed in this world? 6 billion people isn't enough?  Adoption clinics are already over-run with ill conceived children, i'm sure the people who run it wouldn't care if a baby was aborted.


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Jared
 


Posts: 31 | Posted: 05:20 AM on June 22, 2003 | IP
maximus

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Jared,

Fungi is considered a living organism by many. I'm no expert on it but it lives in a symbiotic relationship with other living organisms.

Most medical textbooks would disagree with you that the zygote is not a living organism.

As far as the 6 billion people on the planet--all of them would fit into the state of Texas. I do not propose that they could all live there but they could all fit. This gives you an idea of how much space and resource is out there. If all of us can fit into Texas then how well can we do with the entire earth? The population scare is a myth. All European countries except for a few are in a declining population growth as well as Japan. The scare has actually made the population lopsided with more elderly and less young to be productive in the work force.
The problem is not a lack of resources but with lack of distribution and stewardship of resources. No matter if there are 12 billion people on the planet--Christianity does not advocate population control. You live together and find solutions.

Christianity is the answer to two of the problems you present in your last post: too many mouths to feed and ill conceived children. The virtue of Christian charity relieves the first and the Christian belief on the sanctity of marriage and sex within marriage can relieve the second. But you must also ask yourself if children that are ill conceived lose any of their intrinsic worth.  

Jared, you stated your opinion that you would personally rather be aborted than to live in poverty. I am not sure what economic situation you are currently in. But consider the possibility that you could lose almost all of it tomorrow for some reason or another. Would you commit suicide or fight the good fight and try to come out of it? Also, consider this: Are you willing to apply your opinion across the board to all of these babies? Even if there is uncertainty about the beginning of life (which I propose there is not) shouldn't the benefit of the doubt be given to protect life rather than destroy it?

(Have you seen Antwone Fisher by the way?Poverty, violence, mistreatment cannot extinguish the life within the soul)


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maximus
 


Posts: 8 | Posted: 11:03 AM on June 22, 2003 | IP
jared00004

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Maximus first of all Fungi is not a living thing.  There are 5 kingdoms: Animals, Bacteria, Protists, Plants, and Fungi, only Bacteria. Plants, and the animal kingdoms are alive.  Next all the people in the world could fit into Texas but there'd be no rural areas.  I personally have 123 acres of land and I do not wanna see the world become one big city with no peaceful rural areas.  Japan and Europe, those are some of the most population dence places their are in the world with India being the worst?  Now the earth probably could survive 12 billion but do we need the whole world like India is now?  Also I would not commit suicide as it is a sin and a HUGE cop-out, but an aborted baby was never alive and never knew the world.


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Posts: 31 | Posted: 10:41 PM on June 22, 2003 | IP
maximus

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Jared,
As I said in my last post. Many disagree with you that fungi is not living, check these sites out:

falmouth schools fungi

more fungi

Most medical experts disagree with you that the zygote is not living.

How do you establish that this being is able to be destroyed due to the fact that they have not known the world? "For thou didst form my inward parts, thou didst knit me together in my mother's womb." Psalm 139

What is your line of demarcation beyond which you would not agree with abortion being carried out? Do you oppose abortion after 24 days?

Do you think abortion is a realistic solution to poverty and overpopulation?



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maximus
 


Posts: 8 | Posted: 6:36 PM on June 23, 2003 | IP
jared00004

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No I don't think it will stop poverty and over population but it will help some.  My land's property taxes are rising every year, their getting close to the point I can't pay them and its being done on purpose because some cntractor wants to turn my beautiful land with a lake and great hunting into a dang SUBURB.  Thats one reason abortion is good, maybe its to late for my land but hopfully other land won't have to be torn down for another mouth-to-feed that abortion could have rid.  As I said the fetus cannot even mildly be considered alive till the 24th day but at the same time after the 24th day there are still alot of human things it doesn't have so it can't be alive. And again, you cannot kill what is not alive.


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Jared
 


Posts: 31 | Posted: 7:23 PM on June 23, 2003 | IP
maximus

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"still alot of human things it doesn't have" Every bit of the being is human. It is not a different species. I believe, Jared, that you are in the habit of calling evil good in your support of abortion. I also believe that you are presenting a materialist's viewpoint and not a Christian viewpoint.  

I ask again, where do you draw your line of demarcation that divides your support of abortion and your opposition to it? What constitutes a "living" being in your book? What makes it "living?"


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maximus
 


Posts: 8 | Posted: 10:55 PM on June 23, 2003 | IP
jared00004

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I draw the line after the 3rd month.


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Jared
 


Posts: 31 | Posted: 06:05 AM on June 24, 2003 | IP
jared00004

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Also think about this.  Just recently here in Tennessee a crazy man shot and killed his wife at a Bar-B-Cutie during day light hours just 3 miles from where I live (Antioch, Tennessee.)  He was charged with only the murder of the women and she had a less than 1 month old baby.  IF IT WAS ALIVE WOULD HE NOT BE CHARGED WITH 2 DEGREES OF MURDER!?


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Jared
 


Posts: 31 | Posted: 06:08 AM on June 24, 2003 | IP
maximus

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Jared,
You can do better than that. The law is not necessarily moral in all instances. The government does not tell me what is right and wrong. The law is only a guide. That is what I meant about forming your political and social views in accord with your Christianity not vice-versa. But for your knowledge, MANY states DO have laws on the book against harming babies in the womb.

I'm not sure if you knew but they have a new updated forum at:

you debate new site

I have reposted my original post there. It seems like there are a lot more participants at the new site. I will continue to check here for your posts though.

peace


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maximus
 


Posts: 8 | Posted: 7:32 PM on June 24, 2003 | IP
Aubreydob

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Maximus,
I just wanted to say I totally agree with you! Thank you for being bold! There are not many people that will stand up for what is truth (the word, bible) instead many are chasing "Knowledge" as humans know it. Keep it up! Live out Loud!
Aubrey

 


Posts: 1 | Posted: 10:07 PM on July 19, 2003 | IP
m_n

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I am confused so somewhere between day 89 and day 90 it becomes a person?  Some sort of midnight transformarion?  Sorry but your argument is weak jared.  You cannot have it both ways either the practice is wrong or it isn't the age of the fetus has nothing to do with it, and cannot be the factor which determines whether abortion is right or wrong.  
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 02:15 AM on August 4, 2003 | IP
m_n

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Also you should know that ALL scientists consider fungi living organisms.  ALL.  I cannot believe you think that they are not.  Perhaps you are thinking of viruses?
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 02:18 AM on August 4, 2003 | IP
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ANYONE WHO CONSIDERS GOD THE CREATOR OF ALL LIVING AND ENDS A LIFE HE CREATED IS NOT FOLLOWING GOD AND IS TELLING HIM LIFE IS WORTHLESS .
ANYONE WHO SUPPORTS ABORTION AND SAYS GOD IS THE CREATOR NEEDS TO RETHINK THEIR BELIEFS. JERIMAIH 1:5 GOD SAYS I KNEW YOU B4 YOU WERE FORMED IN YOUR MOTHERS WOMB.[color=red]
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 01:47 AM on August 5, 2003 | IP
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Yes, let's look at this from a biological standpoint, shall we? I do not know what your background in the study of biology is, nor that of physics, theology, mythology, or perhaps any other subject that may come into play in this subject.

For starters I would say that anybody who truly supports abortion falls short to notice the complexity of the human body, the fact that a "human being" is not only a human being, but rather a human and a being.

Scientists throughout the world are seeing this more and more, there is an unknown and unseen world all around us, that us humans cannot detect.

David Seckel, a cosmologist at the University of California said "The worldwide scientific community now agrees that an unseen energy structure must exist."

An article I had read written by Dr. Deepak Chopra, M.D. said the following ...

"The physical bodies that you're using to sit on these chairs, for example, aren't the ones that you walked in with a little while ago. Even with one breath you take in 10 to the power of 22 atoms. An astronomical amount of raw material that ends up as your heart, brain and kidney cells, your neurons, your DNA. With each breath you breathe out 10 to the power of 22 atoms. It's an astronomical amount of raw materials that is coming from every bit of your body. You are literally breathing out bits and pieces of your brain tissue and heart and kidney. Actually, technically speaking, we are intimately sharing our organs with each other all the time.

The American poet Walt Whitman said, "Every atom belonging to you as well belongs to me." And this isn't a metaphorical statement at all. "Every atom belonging to you as well belongs to me." I can't even call my personal body my own. And I try calling everything else my own. I can't even claim a copyright on my own physical body. Right this moment in your body you have a million atoms that were once in the body of Christ."

In reality, your body is COMPLETELY different in every single way from 2.5 years ago. You have a completely new brain, liver, hands, skin, eyes, you name it. Every LAST atom making up your body is different now.

Scientists are starting to also realize that our brains are not the mastermind of our reality. You can see that our physical bodies are constantly changing, they are completely different today from a year ago, 98% of your atomic buildup has changed in this past year. Even your brain is a new one, and yet you can remember things from 10 years ago or more.

It also appears that our physical bodies mean nothing, physical matter means nothing. Studies show that the brain is where everything happens, the brain gives the orders to the body. Everybody knows that for you to lift your arm, move your leg, or so much as wiggle your finger, your brain has to send a signal out through your body for this to happen. No matter where you look you'll never find the decision maker in the brain You'll only find the execution of those decisions. The motor cortex, for example, in the brain, it's that place that executes the commands. But where is the commander? You cannot find it. It's not local. It's everywhere or nowhere depending on your perspective. It's everywhere and nowhere at the same time. And that's who you are! That's who you are. You're everywhere and nowhere at the same time. You don't have a local address.

So what is the "true reality" of life? When I am you, and you are me? If you want to base life itself on the biological pattern atoms circulate around empty space in an individual order, then I am afraid you will be extremely disturbed with the outcome of your life.

When does life begin? Who am I, and who are you? Who is your fetus? WHY DOES ANYBODY HAVE THE RIGHT TO TAKE THE LIFE OF THAT CHILD?

In fact, recent studies show that ever cell is a living, thinking, independent being in it's own. Atomically, you are NOTHING more then that baby. In fact, that baby is made up of the same atoms that belong to me, to you, to every living creature in this world ... and yet you claim a copyright on that babies life? It does NOT work like that, and one day it will be realized.

Life is not made up of atoms, I can tell you that much. And nobody can copyright the life of a person, baby or adult.
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 10:46 AM on August 5, 2003 | IP
Stiggy

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God put every single effin life on this planet. If a woman gets pregnant, that's God's will. Don't question God...He'll bitch slap you to the Dark Ages...

And have you heard how they do it? They pull the baby/fetus out by the feet... leaving the head inside (so it isn't considered BORN or alive) then they put a type of scissors or forcepts that are used to open a hole in the back of the skull so that a the brain can be sucked out through a tube... causeing the skull to collapse after which the rest of the head is taken out. Sick.


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"Going to church doesn't make you a Christian any more than going to a garage makes you an automobile."<br>--William Sunday
 


Posts: 4 | Posted: 1:28 PM on November 7, 2003 | IP
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You may want to go to our new forum at 4forums.com. This one is being phased out.
 


Posts: 31 | Posted: 2:12 PM on November 7, 2003 | IP
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ok look...God knows our intentions rite? so wut the hell does it matter wether u keep the baby or not...if u knw wut ur doing with the ""organism"" ...who gives a shit wut other ppl think...as long as you're doing wuts good for u in the long run...
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 10:10 AM on November 16, 2003 | IP
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All murder is punishable by death. Wheather you kill your-self and others with a bomb or if you kill your baby through abortion or even if you watch an evil movie and kill other people as a result of the spirits attached, God sends those who side with the devil to hell. Chose life, your life is counting on it



Benjamin              bensaved2001@hotmail.com
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 10:28 AM on November 18, 2003 | IP
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what about the health of the mother? what if she can not carry the baby to term with out serious health risk to herself and therfore also the baby?  How is that good for either one of them?  What would that woman do if abortions became illegal?
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 11:39 AM on December 3, 2003 | IP
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Christians who support Abortion? I don't understand how anyone who knows Jesus could kill a littel baby. It is beond me.
 


Posts: 5 | Posted: 5:47 PM on November 9, 2004 | IP
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Quote from ss20man at 5:47 PM on November 9, 2004 :
Christians who support Abortion? I don't understand how anyone who knows Jesus could kill a littel baby. It is beond me.


Please show me the Bible passage that states abortion is wrong.




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Womens rights are just that: rights.
 


Posts: 21 | Posted: 09:40 AM on November 24, 2004 | IP
Re-DefeatBush04

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Quote from maximus at 7:54 PM on June 18, 2003 :
This post is intended for those Christians who support or who do not voice opposition to abortion. I ask you to put aside the emotion, politics, science, and rhetoric of the issue. Get down to the fundamental foundation of your Christianity. Consider that your Christianity should form your politics and social view instead of vice versa. Consider that Christianity should be the foundation of your life and your actions in this world. It should be your compass in dealing with abortion.

The meat of the matter. I ask all of you to consider, pray about, think about the teaching of Father Frank Pavone on the matter. He illustrates a remarkable contrast in thought on abortion between abortion supporters and Christ.

Abortion supporters say, "This is my body, I can do with it what I want. I can destroy others to preserve my life. I can destroy others so that I may live as I want. Do not interfere with me."

Whereas, Christ says, "This is my body, which is given up for you."

"This is my body"--same words but much different in intent, in action, in charity, in love, in faith, in hope... Jesus gives his body away so that others live. Abortion proponents cling to their own bodies so that others die.

There is a profound difference. Christian abortion supporters perhaps miss the most basic and fundamental precept of Christianity.

Think about it.

What about people like me, who personally would npt have an abortion, but believe that freedom is being able to govern your own body, including decisions about your own uterus? I am a Christain, and I am pro-choice.




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*How many more will die for your mistake Bush, how many more?*<br><br>"Love is not blind. It sees all, yet loves it just the same."
 


Posts: 13 | Posted: 8:03 PM on December 19, 2004 | IP
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Jared,
"Now...Lets look at this through a biological stand point."
Most five year old girls are not able to reproduce.  If you lose your job and can't support your five year old like you'd like to should you abort her as well?
 


Posts: 1 | Posted: 3:01 PM on July 29, 2005 | IP
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"Lets see a fetus cannot reproduce,"

Neither can a 10 yr old human being. Some living things reproduce by themselves. Does that make those living things that can't reproduce alone less "living" things?

And what about those humans who can't ever reproduce? Some are born with deformed or missing reproductive organs. Are they not living?

OTOH, the OP implied that it's always wrong to destroy others to preserve your own life. I strongly disagree with that argument. It's morally good to defend your own life, even with deadly force. It's also morally good to choose not to risk your own life to save another. It's "over and above" when someone does risk his life, and that's why they are called heroes.

Can anyone who is pro-life explain why it's OK not to throw yourself in front of a train to save another, why it's morally correct to defend yourself using deadly force against another who will kill or severely injure you, but it's not morally OK to abort a fetus whose existence threatens your life?


 


Posts: 22 | Posted: 5:31 PM on July 29, 2005 | IP
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Quote from EinMichael at 08:36 AM on June 21, 2003 :
Hi,

@maximus:

I only wrote poverty, but what I actually wanted to say, is:

When a becoming mother doesn´t know who´s the father, earns little money and is not able to be responsable for a child, then in
my opinion it´s the better choice, to ruin the existance of a fetus and save the mother´s future, instead of destroying the mother´s life
and rising a child in poverty.

Michael










Yeah but you dont have to kill the baby...you can give it up for adoption...or to people that can't have babies....thats better than killing them...

 


Posts: 8 | Posted: 12:03 AM on December 7, 2005 | IP
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Quote from JJ at 09:40 AM on November 24, 2004 :
Quote from ss20man at 5:47 PM on November 9, 2004 :
Christians who support Abortion? I don't understand how anyone who knows Jesus could kill a littel baby. It is beond me.


Please show me the Bible passage that states abortion is wrong.









I dont think they said that there was a bible passage???It doesnt really matter if its in the bible or not...its still wrong. I dont care what anybody says that baby is alive wether its a day or a month...its a baby!!!! Anybody that has an abortion is a barbaric person...
 


Posts: 8 | Posted: 12:10 AM on December 7, 2005 | IP
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Thats one reason abortion is good, maybe its to late for my land but hopfully other land won't have to be torn down for another mouth-to-feed that abortion could have rid.

That was the worst argument I have ever seen for abortion.  By your own reasoning, if I kill you I'm only guilty of keeping property taxes down.  After all, killing you is getting rid of another mouth-to-feed.  One should really think a bit harder before pressing submit.


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 2:10 PM on January 6, 2006 | IP
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"What about people like me, who personally would npt have an abortion, but believe that freedom is being able to govern your own body, including decisions about your own uterus? I am a Christain, and I am pro-choice."

If you wouldn't have an abortion yourself, why do you support it?  Why do you distance yourself from something you support?  How can you call yourself a Christian when the Bible says these things:

Psalm 139:13 "For You created my inmost being; You knit me together in my mother's womb."
Psalm 139:16 "Your eyes saw my unformed body.  All the days ordained for me were written in Your book before one of them came to be."
Psalm 22:10 "From birth I was cast upon you; from my mother's womb You have been my God."

Now here's the kicker: Psalm 127:3 says, "Sons are a heritage from the Lord, children a reward from Him."  Now if children were a reward from God, would He think that abortion was ok?  No.  Of course not.

Abortion is a selfish act.  God is a God of love and in love there is no selfishness.  Abortion is all about "what about ME ME ME??  How am III going to take care of this child?  III don't want to go through labor!!  III don't want to have to give this child up for adoption!  III dont' want to tell my parents III'm pregnant!!!!"

But aside from that, abortion is illogical.  A fetus just magically becomes a baby when it can support itself outside the mother?  In the last forum I was in, someone admitted that abortion was not logical but instead it was "emotional".  Guess what else is emotional?  Rape.  Murder.  Those are both very emotional acts.  

Abortion is wrong.  And God does not condone it.  If you're a Christian and you think abortion is ok, you should think about how many times a day you're reading your Bible.

(Edited by hinata 2/3/2006 at 8:10 PM).
 


Posts: 4 | Posted: 8:09 PM on February 3, 2006 | IP
BapRap

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If God loves you he would want the best for you.  In many cases this might include an abortion. Regardless of the fact that women have rights now (it wasn't that long ago that Sandra Day O'Conner could not get a job as an attorney out of college because she was a WOMAN) God would want what is best, would want happiness and health.  Please stop trying to restrict rights and roll back the clock under the guise of prayer!  God would want happiness and abortion can be necessary at times, those who do not understand this are most likely, although perhaps unwittingly, trying to roll back the clock to another era. What amazes me is how selfish this is, for the most part pro-lifers are selfishly trying to tell others what to do in order to make themselves feel better.  That is greed!!

(Edited by BapRap 2/6/2006 at 2:29 PM).
 


Posts: 2 | Posted: 2:28 PM on February 6, 2006 | IP
hinata

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You didn't read the Scriptures I wrote.  They are from the Bible.  And God isn't about happiness.  He's about what's doing what's right.  Jesus didn't have a "happy" life.  Neither did Paul.  If they had "happy" lives instead of doing what was unselfish, we wouldn't be saved right now.

(Edited by hinata 2/6/2006 at 5:36 PM).
 


Posts: 4 | Posted: 5:34 PM on February 6, 2006 | IP
hinata

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"That is greed!!"

You don't know the definition of greed obviously.  Greed is want of more of something...e.i., money, food, etc.  

Christians just want a child to be able to live its life, especially because most abortions (look it up) are primarily because of the mother not wanting her child.  Not because she was raped or because she or the child would get sick or die.  Just because she didn't want to complicate her life.  And fighting for someone else's life isn't selfish at all.  I know many Christians who have adopted children.  


 


Posts: 4 | Posted: 5:49 PM on February 6, 2006 | IP
EMyers

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God would want happiness

Ever notice that people who tend to do "what's right" regardless of what would make them happy tend to be (on the whole) happier than those who do "what's fun"?  Hmm, maybe God is smarter than we are.  


-------
"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 09:40 AM on February 7, 2006 | IP
daytonvh

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The context of Scripture and teachings of Jesus are absolutely my moral compass to determine my stance on abortion. It is through my Christian faith that I support the right of women to terminate pregnancy in accordance with their individual conscience.

The New Testament is even more silent on the issue of abortion than it is on homosexuality. So we're forced to look further back, to the Old Testament. My position on abortion stands on two observations. First, Scripture tells us that God spoke unto Jeremiah, saying "I knew thee BEFORE the womb". This clearly exemplifies God's perfect foreknowledge, unbound by our mortal experience of time and causality. God's plan for Jeremiah was laid, not just before Jeremiah was BORN, but before Jeremiah was CONCEIVED.

Second, we know that a majority - yes, more than half - of all fertilized human ova do not implant in the uterine wall. More perfectly viable zygotes are swept out of women's uteruses than are retained. Another great many viable zygotes implant in the uterine wall, only to stall and be swept out again for no apparent reason - more often than not, without the woman ever being aware she was briefly pregnant! And after all that, we know a great many more intentional and wanted pregnancies are miscarried - yea verily, even after the first trimester, again for no apparent reason.

Taken together, we must conclude from these two facts - first Biblical, then medical - that God knows, before the womb, which zygotes will and won't graduate from the hazards of that womb. God imbues the fetus with a soul and destiny only when it exits the birth canal or caesarean incision alive, to draw its first breath. Does God not know the heart and mind of every person? Surely He does not ensoul the embryo destined for abortion, any more than He mints a soul for every un-implanted fertilized egg, nor the myriad embryos and fetuses miscarried for no apparent reason.

Abortion supporters say, "This is my body, I must do with it what best aligns with my beliefs and values. I can terminate a pregnancy in good conscience if it detracts from my or my family's well-being. My own life-in-progress need not be held hostage to every potential, unformed life that takes hold in my uterus by folly or mischance."
 


Posts: 1 | Posted: 11:55 PM on September 13, 2012 | IP
FrozenSun7

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I find it quite ironic that is illegal to damage the egg of a Bald Eagle and other endangered birds in this country, yet we condone killing unborn humans.  What is the difference? except of course that human life should be more valuable.
 


Posts: 14 | Posted: 12:11 AM on September 27, 2012 | IP
FrozenSun7

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I am a Christian, and I am "pro-choice" and "pro-life" I believe we all have the choice not to get pregnant or impregnate someone.  I also believe that all humans whether fetus or not have a right to live.
 


Posts: 14 | Posted: 12:15 AM on September 27, 2012 | IP
FrozenSun7

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Who can predict the future?  Who can know what a child's life will be like?  How can anyone say with any certainty that this child will be unhappy, or this child will be successful?  The argument that abortion is the lesser of two evils is absurd, and based on the assumption that the child's life will be one way or another.
 


Posts: 14 | Posted: 12:20 AM on September 27, 2012 | IP
FrozenSun7

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We must also remember that god is not confined by time.  He knows the end from the beginning and the beginning from the end.  To God an embryo is not potential life, but life.  In one glimpse he is able to see the entire life of an individual.  Just because we cannot see the future does not mean that it doesn't exist.  when you kill an unborn baby, you are interfering with Gods plans.  I was not just recognized by God at birth or 90 days gestation, but since conception.  So when god looks at an embryo today he also sees a year from now that embryo as a small baby, then a child, an adult, and so forth.  To say an embryo is only potential life is wrong, for if not killed by his or her own mother he/she would have been born and lived his or her life.
 


Posts: 14 | Posted: 12:32 AM on September 27, 2012 | IP
FrozenSun7

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Women do have rights, they have the right not to get pregnant, but no one should have the right to murder just though they don't have to deal with self induced consequences.
 


Posts: 14 | Posted: 12:38 AM on September 27, 2012 | IP
CLLviews

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Quote from maximus at 4:54 PM on June 18, 2003 :
This post is intended for those Christians who support or who do not voice opposition to abortion. I ask you to put aside the emotion, politics, science, and rhetoric of the issue. Get down to the fundamental foundation of your Christianity. Consider that your Christianity should form your politics and social view instead of vice versa. Consider that Christianity should be the foundation of your life and your actions in this world. It should be your compass in dealing with abortion.


Biblical fact checking is as important as political fact checking.  You would be surprised to know that contentious views about abortion are not conveyed in scripture.  In fact, scripture defuses the abortion debate.  What the Bible really says about abortion has never been included in the debate. If Christians are kept in the dark concerning scriptural truth, arguments over abortion will continue to worsen and persist while the message of God’s love and salvation is set aside.  The following article is based on scriptural facts about abortion not religious faction and fiction.

How scripture defuses the abortion debate - http://bit.ly/CLLonAbortion  


 


Posts: 1 | Posted: 03:43 AM on September 30, 2012 | IP
GabrielleElaineBiggs

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I am Atheistic and secular in my political thinking. I think abortion is fine as long as the fetus can't feel it, but should be avoided. For example, abstinence, but the more realistic way is via birth control.
 


Posts: 20 | Posted: 11:06 PM on January 17, 2013 | IP
GabrielleElaineBiggs

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Also, abortion can be self defense.
 


Posts: 20 | Posted: 11:10 PM on January 17, 2013 | IP
    
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