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     understanding "pro-life"

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cryptopodium

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Hello everyone.

I've come to this site because I genuinely want to make an attempt to understand the way that "pro-life" advocates think. My personal stance is that abortion should be permitted up to a certain stage in the development of the foetus, but I have not come here to be confrontational. I am interested in the thinking behind the viewpoint that a single-celled zygote or undifferentiated early embryo  is a "human being", deserving of particular rights, and particularly to what extent this concept is or is not intrinsically linked with a religious stance (I happen to be an atheist), and how it relates to philosophical ideas and a knowledge of biology. I will only reply to well reasoned, articulate and non-offensive postings.

Obviously a zygote/early embryo is "human" in that it is composed of genetically human cell(s). It is obviously human "life" in the sense that it is actively metabolising. But these things would also be true of scrapings from the inside of my cheek. The crux seems to be that it is *A* human life, i.e. a unique human genotype, and hence, according to pro-life advocates, a human *being*. But it still lacks all of the attributes that (at least from a non-religious stance) characterise people, and give us reason to value them so much, i.e. awareness, emotions, a capacity to interact with the environment, memory etc. So I would say that it isn't a human being in the sense of being a "person", but I can see how that could be open to (semantic) debate.

So, having (hopefully) got all of that stuff out of the way, I'll start with a question - why should we attach great value (i.e. on the same scale as the value we attach to a fully conscious human being) to a unique genotype? What is the connection between the reasons for attaching value to conscious human beings and the supposed reasons for valuing a zygote? Or are they different reasons?
 


Posts: 5 | Posted: 7:32 PM on August 12, 2003 | IP
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Do not the unborn children have a heart beat and do they not also have the distinct traits of life within the mothers wound. If you would feel comfortable killing an unborn child or your grandparent because he does not contribute to anything but gives you love and compassion then this society as we know it will crumble around our feet and leave us within a government with no moral standards or judgement system.
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 8:36 PM on October 14, 2003 | IP
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cryptopodium, okay, I am new here, but I registered because I wanted to be apart of such a forum - especially one that has an abortion forum!
Here's what I think about your questions:
Everything and everyone starts out small and gets bigger; the beginning may look different too. Just because a caterpillar doesn't look like a butterfly, that doesn't mean that it's not going to look the same. You must give it time. You were once a toddler and didn't look the same, but you grew.
Why are there abortions in the first place? To get rid of the "pregnancy." Why? Because if you didn't, _everyone_ knows what'll happen in 9 months. You won't just have a pregnant mother, you'll have someone else right there in front of you. You just didn't actually see him/her before without ultrasounds.
Yes, in the first so many weeks, especially, human looks and all are not as apparent. But so? He/she is growing. A 6 month old doesn't know how to read, and does that make the child any less human?
You asked, "What is the connection between the reasons for attaching value to conscious human beings and the supposed reasons for valuing a zygote?" I think I pretty much already answered that. One's growing, the other is grown - or at least grown more. I hope this all made some sense. E-mail me even, if you want to.
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 2:15 PM on November 4, 2003 | IP
Liesbeth

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Ah, my name didn't show up, and I wanted it to. I'm trying this to show you who wrote the last post!


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A father said to his son, "When Abe Lincoln was your age, he was studying books by the light of the fireplace."
The son replied, "When Lincoln was your age, he was President."
 


Posts: 2 | Posted: 2:21 PM on November 4, 2003 | IP
Charchuk

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Quote from Guest at 4:36 PM on October 14, 2003 :
Do not the unborn children have a heart beat and do they not also have the distinct traits of life within the mothers wound. If you would feel comfortable killing an unborn child or your grandparent because he does not contribute to anything but gives you love and compassion then this society as we know it will crumble around our feet and leave us within a government with no moral standards or judgement system.



A heart beat is no long an indication of a life since the heart can be kept beating artificially for an indefinite period of time. The same can be said of the other organs of the body as well. What is an indicator of a life is a functioning higher brain which a fetus doesn't have during the periods which the vast majority of abortions occur. A body can be kept alive indefinitely without a higher functioning brain, but it is not a life.

Each cell in your body now has the potential of being a life with the advent of cloning. Do you stop shedding your skin and other cells?
 


Posts: 11 | Posted: 6:39 PM on November 4, 2003 | IP
Liesbeth

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Indeed, Charchuk. But you, as well as everyone else, know that when a lady becomes pregnant, it is not with skin cells. Everyone knows what happens when you hear "I'm pregnant." The reaction is totally different if you were to hear "I have cancer." Both have things happening to your body, but both have different outcomes. What do you think when someone says "I'm pregnant"?


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A father said to his son, "When Abe Lincoln was your age, he was studying books by the light of the fireplace."
The son replied, "When Lincoln was your age, he was President."
 


Posts: 2 | Posted: 12:06 PM on November 5, 2003 | IP
Stiggy

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My thoughts on it are that if you are irresponsible and do not use birth control, then just because you messed up doesn't mean that you can just kill your baby. And I understand that some people do get pregnant on birth control or contraceptives, but still. Life is precious, at least give the baby up for adoption...


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"Going to church doesn't make you a Christian any more than going to a garage makes you an automobile."<br>--William Sunday
 


Posts: 4 | Posted: 1:13 PM on November 7, 2003 | IP
E-man217

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My thoughts on abortion?
As long as it has no higher thinking ability it isnt a human.Up until that point, it is a para-site.


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Am I mearly the dream of a five year old version of me?And of the five year old, a dream of a hippo?<br>Reality is how you percieve it!
 


Posts: 13 | Posted: 4:39 PM on December 17, 2003 | IP
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This particular line of thought would make some fully grown adult human beings essentially non-human.  Would it be okay to abort them as well?
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 9:35 PM on January 22, 2004 | IP
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This sermonette was given originally by a Pastor C. Lupus for the supporters of abortions.

Sermon For Today: Your Funding of Abortion by Pastor C. Lupus.

Pastor C. Lupus says “Even though you give aid and comfort to every abortioner to commit abortions. . . Don't Worry!  Your government is allowed to commit evil that good may come.  You financial support of this evil is ordained by God, since that evil is for our good.  Your continued financial support of that evil will work out for your good.”

At Home Project:  Remove the following verses - - - Romans 3:8, 2 Chron 19:2, Romans 1:28-32, and Romans 13:4.   Amen.

A parting question from unworthy servant:  Since God says in Exodus 20:13 (NASV) "You shall not murder" . . .  In the eyes of God, who is guilty, the one who murders or both the murderer and the one who hires the murderer?  


 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 1:33 PM on February 1, 2004 | IP
somerandomperson

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I believe that abortion is wrong. I'm "pro-life". Whether if the unborn child had the attributes of a human or not, it still has the DNA of a human (unless an alien from outer space was involved.. :P) anyhoo back to it. So if it has DNA of a human, then it IS human. Also, I know someone that had an abortion. Back then I was not sure where I stood on abortion, so I really didn't care what she would do.. but after about a week or so she was totally distraught. She, right now, could've had a child. hell, I helped her named the aborted baby before it was aborted. This happened about 9 months ago, and since then, my stance on abortion is against it. PRO-LIFE
 


Posts: 2 | Posted: 11:21 PM on November 1, 2004 | IP
JJ

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Quote from somerandomperson at 11:21 PM on November 1, 2004 :
I believe that abortion is wrong. I'm "pro-life". Whether if the unborn child had the attributes of a human or not, it still has the DNA of a human (unless an alien from outer space was involved.. :P)


So does my hair. Therefore my hair is a person.

Quote from somerandomperson at 11:21 PM on November 1, 2004 :but after about a week or so she was totally distraught. She, right now, could've had a child.


What a tragedy for her. Has she had counselling? she may find it useful.

The American Psychology association has found that most women suffer from no long term emotional effects. your friend making the wrong choice does not mean it's wrong for everyone.





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Womens rights are just that: rights.
 


Posts: 21 | Posted: 09:54 AM on November 24, 2004 | IP
    
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