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   Abortion Debates
     Moral/Immoral, Legal/Illegal
       what is the issue?

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Really, the question of whether abortion is moral or immoral is entirely different than the question of whether abortion should be legal or illegal! Why? We know that thousands of women are going to get abortions anyways! No matter what! They can't carry it; don't want to go full term,  or can't afford it, or were raped or was an accident...whatever. And not just the US. Now, if abortion was illegalized, these women would get illegal abortions. Maybe in other countries. But NOT in a safe environment. People may argue that, well, it's 2003 a lot different from the 60's...illegal abortionists will have better materials...yeah but they're in it for money and they're doing illegal activities. Do they bother with disinfecting materials, or even buying fancy materials? Do they bother with cleanroom environments? No. Campaigns across the world should encourage against abortions, but since there are women who cannot be convinced, and the law is technically on their side (Roe v Wade), then all we can do is keep it legal to ensure the safety of the women. What about the baby? It will very unfortunately be denied the right to live. But if we illegalize it and the abortions are illegal and the abortionists consider money and not safety...the mother will very likely also suffer severe problems.

The verdict? No verdict really...it's a dilemna, both morally and legally. I've suggested that we try to discourage it and keep it legal at the same time, but that may not be the most effective solution, and to some may not be enough.
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 9:14 PM on September 9, 2003 | IP
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horrible logic. murder is going to happen anyway... so why not make it legal? people are going to do certain drugs anyway, why not make that legal. car crashes and speeding are going to happen, why not make those legal?

 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 9:22 PM on September 10, 2003 | IP
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hey...im prolife too...!!
murder is going to happen anyway, but that can simply not be made legal.
abortion, on the other hand, is a different matter entirely. it does involve the killing of an innocent fetus, which imho is horribly wrong...on the other hand, would you prefer that women instead get themselves AND their babies killed by having illegal abortions? I'm trying to say the making abortion illegal is not a deterrent for abortion here. Sure, you can say making murder illegal is not a deterrent for murder. But an abortion is different from a murder. Abortion is not usually done out of hatred or out of the heat of passion...its done out of certain "neccesities" in the woman's life. You're forgetting that a pregnancy is a great deal for the parent too. Don't just consider the baby, consider both. No mother wants to kill her baby (or as they say, 'terminate the pregnancy.')

Look at it this way:

If we make abortion illegal:
Mothers -to-be will not be deterred, and they will get illegal abortions and suffer health consequences as well as the loss of their baby.

If we keep abortion legal:
Mothers-to-be probably still won't be deterred, but councilling can be offered and at least their lives will be preserved.

If your sister was pregnant by rape, and was in no financial situation to have the baby, and was in a very difficult point in her life...what would you rather have: illegal abortions or legal abortions, knowing that she will get one no matter what you say?
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 7:33 PM on September 21, 2003 | IP
ThePunkyPickle

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First of all, I would like to point out that there is no reason to believe that most women who want an abortion would have one whether it was illegal or not.  Before abortion became legal in the United States, the number of abortions was very low, and most were performed by licensed doctors.  The number of abortion related deaths and injuries was not anywhere near as high as it became after abortion was legalized.  If abortion were made illegal, it is logical to assume that many would-be mothers would choose not to have one because of the law.  Most of those who would decide to have an abortion inspite of the law, would have it done by a licensed doctor.

But all of this is really beside the point.  Laws are not made for the convenience of law breakers.  The fact that some people would be injured or killed while breaking the law is not a good reason to make something legal.  Many bank robbers are probably killed in car accidents while fleeing the scene of the crime.  Does this mean that we should make bank robbing legal, in order to prevent this?  Of course not.  The same principle should be applied to the issue of abortion laws.


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Did you know?
-4,000 babies are aborted every DAY in the U.S.
-Over 40,000,000 babies have been aborted since abortion was made legal in 1973.
-Abortion is legal in the U.S. at any point during the 9 months of pregnency, and for any reason.
 


Posts: 8 | Posted: 9:18 PM on September 8, 2004 | IP
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Quote from ThePunkyPickle at 9:18 PM on September 8, 2004 :
First of all, I would like to point out that there is no reason to believe that most women who want an abortion would have one whether it was illegal or not.  Before abortion became legal in the United States, the number of abortions was very low, and most were performed by licensed doctors.    


Proof? 100 000 women are known to have had abortions in the year before roev wade. HOWEVER these are only the ones who are known about.

1) Not all women who aborted will have visited a doctor about it as an early abortion (if carried out safely) is unlikely to cause problems
2) If they did, not all doctors would have noted it in their records in order to protect the woman.

Quote from ThePunkyPickle at 9:18 PM on September 8, 2004 :
The number of abortion related deaths and injuries was not anywhere near as high as it became after abortion was legalized.  


What source are you using here?

Quote from ThePunkyPickle at 9:18 PM on September 8, 2004 :
 If abortion were made illegal, it is logical to assume that many would-be mothers would choose not to have one because of the law.  


Why do you think this? what's your evidence?



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Womens rights are just that: rights.
 


Posts: 21 | Posted: 10:23 AM on September 9, 2004 | IP
ThePunkyPickle

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First of all, I don't see how this 100,000 abortions idea could be at all accurate.  Abortions were not reported before abortion was legalized.  They were done in secret.  It seems to me that this number was either outright made up or is a very rough estimate.
Even if this number is correct, it is still far less than the number of abortions performed yearly since it was legalized in 1973.
-in the 80's and 90's, an average of 1,550,000 abortions were performed yearly.
-10% of known abortion providers did not report, meaning that the number is actually slightly higher than 1,550,000.

Second, it is common sense that making something illegal will deter people from doing it.  This is the reason laws are made in the first place.  If you need some kind of proof, let's look at Poland.  In 1992, abortion became illegal in Poland.  In 1990, two years before the law was made, there were 59,417 total abortions.  Two years after the law was made, the number dropped to 782.  That's a 76% decrease in the total number of abortions.  I believe that America would experience a similar decrease.

I got these numbers from this site http://www.abortionfacts.com/online_books/love_them_both/why_cant_we_love_them_both_27.asp#But%20isn’t%20abortion%20safer%20than%20childbirth?


-------
Did you know?
-4,000 babies are aborted every DAY in the U.S.
-Over 40,000,000 babies have been aborted since abortion was made legal in 1973.
-Abortion is legal in the U.S. at any point during the 9 months of pregnency, and for any reason.
 


Posts: 8 | Posted: 5:01 PM on September 9, 2004 | IP
JJ

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Quote from ThePunkyPickle at 5:01 PM on September 9, 2004 :
First of all, I don't see how this 100,000 abortions idea could be at all accurate.  Abortions were not reported before abortion was legalized.  They were done in secret.  It seems to me that this number was either outright made up or is a very rough estimate.


There were 100 000 KNOWN abortions. did you read what I wrote?

Quote from ThePunkyPickle at 5:01 PM on September 9, 2004 :
Even if this number is correct, it is still far less than the number of abortions performed yearly since it was legalized in 1973.


Go see http://eileen.250x.com/GerriS/numbers_sykes.htm for some good old maths.

Quote from ThePunkyPickle at 5:01 PM on September 9, 2004 :
Second, it is common sense that making something illegal will deter people from doing it.  This is the reason laws are made in the first place.


A law needs to be accepted by the people for it to be adhered to - that's why speeding laws are ignored. You're also presuming here that an abortion is a choice, when to women who abort it is a necessity. They will find a way.

 
Quote from ThePunkyPickle at 5:01 PM on September 9, 2004 :
Two years after the law was made, the number dropped to 782.  That's a 76% decrease in the total number of abortions.


Proof for these numbers? As you yourself said, records aren't kept of illegal abortions so how do youget the figure 782?

Quote from ThePunkyPickle at 5:01 PM on September 9, 2004 :
I got these numbers from this site [url=http://www.abortionfacts.com/online_books/love_them_both/why_cant_we_love_them_both_27.asp#But%20isn’t%20abortion%20safer%20than%20childbirth?]


ahhh, abortionfacts.com...bias. Plese independently verify facts from a biased site before posting them.



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Womens rights are just that: rights.
 


Posts: 21 | Posted: 07:00 AM on September 10, 2004 | IP
ss20man

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We can not make some think legal just because people will do it anyway. But we must change the mind set, just like in my youth, it was very, very popular to do drugs, but look at it to day, yes kids still do drugs, but nothing like back in my day, look at seat belts, smoking, ect. The more we educate our self and our kids, if we taught our kid to take reasonability for their actions, instant of saying “go ahead and have sex, you can always kill it if you want (legally or illegally)”
 


Posts: 5 | Posted: 5:41 PM on November 9, 2004 | IP
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Quote from ss20man at 5:41 PM on November 9, 2004 :
We can not make some think legal just because people will do it anyway.


abortion being illegal doesn't stop women aborting - just look at Portugal, Africa, South America etc. They do it, and they die. That's reason for it being legal.

Quote from ss20man at 5:41 PM on November 9, 2004 :But we must change the mind set, just like in my youth, it was very, very popular to do drugs, but look at it to day, yes kids still do drugs, but nothing like back in my day, look at seat belts, smoking, ect.


Women have been aborting since way back in hsitory. Mind set hasn't changed. It's a matter of opinion - I don't see that a non-sentient mass of tissue has rights over a woman, but you clearly do. That's your opinion. What are your revolutionary ideas for changing the mind set?

 
Quote from ss20man at 5:41 PM on November 9, 2004 :The more we educate our self and our kids, if we taught our kid to take reasonability for their actions, instant of saying “go ahead and have sex, you can always kill it if you want (legally or illegally)”


Abortion is taking responsibility.





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Womens rights are just that: rights.
 


Posts: 21 | Posted: 09:44 AM on November 24, 2004 | IP
    
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