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     Abortions vs Ethics
       thoughts on when abortion is unethical

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[b][color=navy] What would you say to this...
At what stage in a pregnancy is it unethical to have an abortion...?
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 11:45 AM on September 29, 2003 | IP
Stiggy

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I'd say second trimester....definitely NOT third trimester...


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"Going to church doesn't make you a Christian any more than going to a garage makes you an automobile."<br>--William Sunday
 


Posts: 4 | Posted: 1:22 PM on November 7, 2003 | IP
CommentMan

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At what stage in a pregnancy is it unethical to have an abortion...?


Depends on how you define "life" and "human."

If a fertilized egg (at conception) is considered human life, then abortion is unethical at any time.
 


Posts: 20 | Posted: 03:06 AM on March 23, 2004 | IP
unworthy servant

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The question should be :Is abortion a moral or ethical issue.

Morals are determine by God and ethics are determined by the widsom of man, such as Plato.  Of course, how does God describe man's wisdom?

1 Cor 1: 19-21, 25  For it is written, "I  WILL DESTROY THE WISDOM OF THE WISE, AND THE CLEVERNESS OF THE CLEVER I WILL SET ASIDE."  Where  is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made  foolish the wisdom of the  world?  For since in the wisdom of God the  world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God  was well-pleased through the foolishness  of the message  preached to save  those who believe. ...Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

What is God's advice for those who rely on ethics instead of morals?

Isaiah 55:6-9 6 Seek the LORD while He may be found; Call  upon Him while He is near.  Let  the wicked forsake his way And the unrighteous man his thoughts;  And let him return  to the LORD, And He will have compassion on him, And to our God, For He will abundantly  pardon.

Oh, yeah abortion is murder so it is morally wrong!

Exodus 20:13 "  You shall not murder.


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WE MUST OBEY GOD RATHER THAN MEN - ACTS 5:29
 


Posts: 196 | Posted: 08:37 AM on April 11, 2004 | IP
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At any stage. Abortion is already unethical, because ethics sprang out of morals. Is it moral to kill a human life? No.


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*juSt*
 


Posts: 4 | Posted: 5:51 PM on April 22, 2004 | IP
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Quote from Guest at 07:45 AM on September 29, 2003 :
[b][color=navy] What would you say to this...
At what stage in a pregnancy is it unethical to have an abortion...?


when a child is in the process of being formed...period.

when you perform an abortion, you are stopping a life.  if you go out and break a bald eagle's egg, you'd go to jail.  why?  you didn't kill a "bald eagle"...  but go ahead and end the life process for a human.

apparently that's the tone these days, anyway.  people are screaming pro-choice..."woman's right to choose".  what about the kid's choice?  i bet they don't want to be sucked out by a vacuum.  at least i wouldn't have...glad my mom had me.
 


Posts: 5 | Posted: 10:26 PM on July 7, 2004 | IP
ThePunkyPickle

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There are obviously many different opinions as to when life begins, and therefore when abortion is unethical.  The point I would like to make is that because of this uncertainty, we should give the benefit of the doubt to preserving life, not to destroying it.  It is not ethical at all to assume that it is okay to end the life of a fetus just because we are not certain that it is a human life yet.  Instead we should treat every fetus, no matter how old, as if it is a human person.  
Imagine if we used the opposite way of thinking in other situations.  For instance, if a hunter is in the woods, and he hears a noise in a nearby bush, but is not certain that it is a deer, would it be okay to go ahead and shoot, since he does not know for sure that it is not a deer?  Of course it wouldn't.  Anyone who did this would be considered extremely irresponsible, if not guilty of a criminal act.  The same principle should be applied when dealing with an unborn human.  Because we cannot know for sure when life begins, we should not intentionally take the life of any fetus.



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Did you know?
-4,000 babies are aborted every DAY in the U.S.
-Over 40,000,000 babies have been aborted since abortion was made legal in 1973.
-Abortion is legal in the U.S. at any point during the 9 months of pregnency, and for any reason.
 


Posts: 8 | Posted: 8:58 PM on September 8, 2004 | IP
JJ

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Quote from ThePunkyPickle at 8:58 PM on September 8, 2004 :
There are obviously many different opinions as to when life begins, and therefore when abortion is unethical.  The point I would like to make is that because of this uncertainty, we should give the benefit of the doubt to preserving life, not to destroying it.


and you preserve the womans quality of life and health by allowing abortion.

 
Quote from ThePunkyPickle at 8:58 PM on September 8, 2004 :
It is not ethical at all to assume that it is okay to end the life of a fetus just because we are not certain that it is a human life yet.  Instead we should treat every fetus, no matter how old, as if it is a human person.  


So we have two entities here...one definitely IS a person (the woman) and one MAY BE a person. It simply doesn't make sense to harm the definite person for the sake of something that is possibly a person.



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Womens rights are just that: rights.
 


Posts: 21 | Posted: 10:27 AM on September 9, 2004 | IP
ThePunkyPickle

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The problem with your argument is that you are implying that pregnancy is somehow harming the mother, and that abortion would remove this harm.  However, quite the opposite is true.  Abortion is not a safe procedure in regards to the mother at all.  
-10% of all women who have abortions will suffer immediate complications.
-The risk of complications during future pregnancies is dramatically increased.
-60% of women who have had abortions say that it made their lives worse according to a recent survey.
-In the same survey, 28% of post-abortive women have attempted suicide.

These alarming physical risks and psychological effects of abortion are drastically higher than those associated with normal pregnancy and childbirth.  The truth is that abortion kills the one who MAY BE a person, and damages the one who IS a person.

The statistics I used are from this site http://www.all.org/abort.htm


-------
Did you know?
-4,000 babies are aborted every DAY in the U.S.
-Over 40,000,000 babies have been aborted since abortion was made legal in 1973.
-Abortion is legal in the U.S. at any point during the 9 months of pregnency, and for any reason.
 


Posts: 8 | Posted: 4:19 PM on September 9, 2004 | IP
JJ

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Quote from ThePunkyPickle at 4:19 PM on September 9, 2004 :
The problem with your argument is that you are implying that pregnancy is somehow harming the mother,


Which it is, both physically and emotionally.

Quote from ThePunkyPickle at 4:19 PM on September 9, 2004 :
and that abortion would remove this harm.  However, quite the opposite is true.  

Abortion is not a safe procedure in regards to the mother at all.  
-10% of all women who have abortions will suffer immediate complications.


Define immediate complications, and explain how they are worse than the immediate complications followed by birth

Quote from ThePunkyPickle at 4:19 PM on September 9, 2004 :
-The risk of complications during future pregnancies is dramatically increased.


Which pro-lie site did you get this from? Please verify from an independent medical source.

Quote from ThePunkyPickle at 4:19 PM on September 9, 2004 :
-60% of women who have had abortions say that it made their lives worse according to a recent survey.


Source?

In 1989, a panel of the American Psychological Association unanimously concluded that legal abortion "does not create psychological hazards for most women undergoing the procedure." They found that about 21% of US adult women had had an abortion. If severe emotional reactions were common, then they would have expected to notice an epidemic of women seeking treatment. No evidence of such a flood was observed.  

Quote from ThePunkyPickle at 4:19 PM on September 9, 2004 :
-In the same survey, 28% of post-abortive women have attempted suicide.


again...source for this survery?

Quote from ThePunkyPickle at 4:19 PM on September 9, 2004 :
These alarming physical risks and psychological effects of abortion are drastically higher than those associated with normal pregnancy and childbirth.


Please provide an *unbiased* source for this. The CDC views pregnancy and birth as more physically and emotionally harmful.

 
Quote from ThePunkyPickle at 4:19 PM on September 9, 2004 :
The truth is that abortion kills the one who MAY BE a person, and damages the one who IS a person.


Damages less than pregnancy and childbirth. Now even pretending that all the info you've provided here is true, the woman has a right to choose which route she herself chooses, and if she considers abortion better for her, than that's her right.

Quote from ThePunkyPickle at 4:19 PM on September 9, 2004 :
The statistics I used are from this site http://www.all.org/abort.htm


*sigh*

Again, please independently verify info from a biased source.


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Womens rights are just that: rights.
 


Posts: 21 | Posted: 07:20 AM on September 10, 2004 | IP
ThePunkyPickle

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I would like to point out that I not only mentioned my source, but also provided a link for you to go and read it for yourself.  The fact that my information came from a pro-life website does not mean that the information is untrue.  The author of the site did not make up the statistics I used, they are from various organizations that are specifically stated on the website.  I would appreciate it if you would stop trying to make me look like I'm just making numbers up to prove my point, because that is not what I have done.  
If you need to know more specific details about some of the things I've mentioned (like the health risks of abortion) please go to the website link that I have provided, or research it on your own.  You cannot expect me to explain every single point I make in great detail.  This is a message board, not a research paper.

Now then, I would like to know exactly why you think that pregnancy and childbirth are so harmful to the mother.
I would also like to know why you believe that the mother has a right to choose life or death for someone else.  Do you also believe that murderers have the right to choose whether or not they should kill people?  Should rapists be able to decide whether or not it is in their best interest to rape someone?  If so, then these things should also be legal.  No one has a right to infringe on another person's rights.  Before you argue that the fetus in not neccessarily a person, please go back up to my first post on this thread.  Thank you for your time.


-------
Did you know?
-4,000 babies are aborted every DAY in the U.S.
-Over 40,000,000 babies have been aborted since abortion was made legal in 1973.
-Abortion is legal in the U.S. at any point during the 9 months of pregnency, and for any reason.
 


Posts: 8 | Posted: 3:59 PM on September 10, 2004 | IP
JJ

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Quote from ThePunkyPickle at 3:59 PM on September 10, 2004 :
I would like to point out that I not only mentioned my source, but also provided a link for you to go and read it for yourself.


It's a big website, which studies were you referring to? I just don't want to waste both our times discussing the wrong studies.

Quote from ThePunkyPickle at 3:59 PM on September 10, 2004 : The fact that my information came from a pro-life website does not mean that the information is untrue.
 

Not always, no - but it means it's a biased site and info must be independently verified. If I gave you a study on a pro-choice site saying that there were absolutely no long term effects of abortion, I'm sure you'd reject that if it couldn't be independently verified. See?

Quote from ThePunkyPickle at 3:59 PM on September 10, 2004 :The author of the site did not make up the statistics I used,
they are from various organizations that are specifically stated on the website.


No, but it's misrepresenting them as conclusive fact when they're not, ignoring variables and so on. For example, on uterine infections it says "it may well occur" which is an incredibly vague and wholly unscientific phrase - what they are saying is that this is possible, not that it happens frequently. None of the articles on this page are referenced back to the original source via weblink so you can look at the original source, nor does it give you details of the numbers involved.

Quote from ThePunkyPickle at 3:59 PM on September 10, 2004 :
 I would appreciate it if you would stop trying to make me look like I'm just making numbers up to prove my point, because that is not what I have done.  


That is aboslutely untrue, I don't think that and I'm sorry that you think I do. I'm sure you believe this, I'm sure you're not aware that these are false claims, but you're inadvertently spreading lies and scare tactics.

Quote from ThePunkyPickle at 3:59 PM on September 10, 2004 :
If you need to know more specific details about some of the things I've mentioned (like the health risks of abortion) please go to the website link that I have provided, or research it on your own.  You cannot expect me to explain every single point I make in great detail.  This is a message board, not a research paper.


Point me to the specific studies (just give the page reference for them next time)

Quote from ThePunkyPickle at 3:59 PM on September 10, 2004 :
Now then, I would like to know exactly why you think that pregnancy and childbirth are so harmful to the mother.


I'm sorry, are you under the impression that it's not? See http://www.cdc.gov/reproductivehealth/mh_prgdeath.htm (centre for disease control) for a start.

Quote from ThePunkyPickle at 3:59 PM on September 10, 2004 :
I would also like to know why you believe that the mother has a right to choose life or death for someone else.  


No. She chooses life or death of a fetus, which I see differently. Please prove why I shouldn't.

 (emotional and irrelevent hyperbole deleted)

Quote from ThePunkyPickle at 3:59 PM on September 10, 2004 :
No one has a right to infringe on another person's rights.


And then even if it was a person, the fetus wouldn't be able to infringe on the mothers rights.

Quote from ThePunkyPickle at 3:59 PM on September 10, 2004 :
 Before you argue that the fetus in not neccessarily a person, please go back up to my first post on this thread.  


You're arguing that a pregnant woman has no rights over her body because something that *may be a person* is growing off her, which is absurd. Pregnancy has many complications, birth has complications, motherhood has complications, all complications that harm the woman. You're ruining her life in many different ways, because of something that *may* be a person.

To go back to the old "hunter in the woods" scenario...you might not shoot a bush but you'd shoot an entity that was attacking a woman and causing her great harm, whether you knew it was a person or not.




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Womens rights are just that: rights.
 


Posts: 21 | Posted: 6:54 PM on September 10, 2004 | IP
Peter87

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Ok sorry if you don't want me to get involved here. But without reading all your sources of pro-life and pro-choice and simpily using my logic and knowledge I need to make this statement.
If a woman is raped is it fair to make her give birth to the product of man who raped her? How about if it was a teenage girl?
If your female how about if you were raped?
If your male how about if your spouse was raped?
What if there is a history of problamatic births in a family?
You said somthing along the lines that a woman does not have the right to infinge the rights of this "possible life". Do you have the right to infringe the rights of the woman? No you don't.
Please give me a non emotional non religious reason to why abortion is unaceptable?


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Why should we bow to the will of anyone? Especialy a man who our country but another voted for?
 


Posts: 301 | Posted: 2:58 PM on January 2, 2005 | IP
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It sounds to me that most of the points made in favor of abortion are dependant on making the woman sound like a victim.  This is NOT the case.

The vast majority of pregnancies come as a result of decisions made by the woman consciously and consentingly.

For example, when it was said that if an unknown entity that may or may not be human attacked a woman, killing it would be  the best course of action.  This is irrelevant because it implies that the woman was simply attacked through no wrongdoing of her own.  In reality however,  pregnant women become such because of not circumstance, but decisions they have made (extremely irresponsible ones, I might add).

The exception to this would be rape, and I think that in general people are much more acceptant of abortion in those instances.

(Edited by Sol 3/6/2005 at 03:35 AM).
 


Posts: 60 | Posted: 06:18 AM on January 8, 2005 | IP
K8

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Quote from Guest at 11:45 AM on September 29, 2003 :
[b][color=navy] What would you say to this...
At what stage in a pregnancy is it unethical to have an abortion...?


I really believe that it becomes more and more unethical as the birth progresses. Partial Birth Abortion is, in my mind, almost out of the questions (bar perhaps for complications to either the mother's or babies health), but i believe women should have the opportunity to have an abortion early on in the pregnancy. Basically, if it were me, to have an abortion would be a snap decision...but i can't speak for all women.
 


Posts: 292 | Posted: 05:42 AM on April 16, 2005 | IP
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The reason abortion at any stage of a pregnancy is unethical is because you cannot justify killing a human life based on its stage of development. I am 18 years old. I am not allowed to gamble or to buy alcohol until I am 21. This is because studies show that my brain isnt developed enough to way consequences.  I am not fully developed yet. This does not make me less human than those who are older than me. This might be alittle out there for some but if you cross the line one day you could be killing babys because they cannot walk yet they arent quite human because humans can walk upright.  A human is a human no matter what stage of developedment it is in.  But I can see how just telling someone that it is just a fetus makes it easier on them. Abortion has its place. In the need where the mothers health is endangered its completely understandable but its not understandable when its done out of convenience.
 


Posts: 2 | Posted: 12:46 AM on September 22, 2005 | IP
    
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