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Do you believe Legalized Abortion has lowered the Crime Rate ?

http://www.youdebate.com/DEBATES/abortion_crime.HTM
 


Posts: 31 | Posted: 4:30 PM on April 30, 2002 | IP
widgetsnm

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Yes, children misbehaving is partially a direct cause of misguided parenting.  However, killing the children is not a solution.  We should implament a program that loans pregnant women money to pay for their needs during the nine months of pregnancy, on the terms that she will give her baby up for adoption immediately after birth.  (The medical costs however will be paid directly to the institution that gives the services)  The loans will be repaid in a reasonable amount of time after the birth of the child.  If the mother decides to give her baby up for adoption, the loan can be repaid for up to two years.  If the mother decides to keep the child in her custody, she will have one year to repay the loan.  These services will be made known to women at abortion clinics, but I have just thought of this program today and have no way of funding it.  This idea should be considered as another option for pregnant women every where, especially if they are in financially bad situations.  I just worry for the child.


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Stacy
 


Posts: 1 | Posted: 6:20 PM on May 2, 2002 | IP
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I partially agree with you Stacey.  This argument is a remnent of eugenics which in case everyone doesn't know is the evolution based theory that supported ethnic cleansing which has in its practise proven itself debunct.  

Whoever these "experts" are, they didn't do their research very well.  I compared the R squared values between crime rates and annual unemployement (R squared = 0.964) and crime rate and the abortion rates from 20 years previous (R squared = 0.9015).  Another important thing to note - the trend was that with a lower abortion rate 20 years ago there is in fact a lower crime rate today.  That does not mean that abortion causes crime, I'm just pointing out that these experts are saying the opposite of what the statistics show.  

R squared can give a general idea of the correlation from deviations of a linear trendline, an R squared value of 0.95-1 is very significant, anything below is generally considered flawed and a more advanced statistical test must be used.  I went to the the Bureau of Justice to get the crime statistics, the Bureau of Labor Statistics for unemployement rates and the Alan Guttmacher Institute for the abortion rate statistics (these were in amount of abortions per 1000 women aged 15-44).  The point?  The argument is bull!  There is more evidence that decreasing unemployement rates were the cause of the low crime rates.  

There are a few responses I have to Stacey's suggestion too.  As she eluded to, the loan would have to be very large because it would necessiate reimbersing a woman considering abortion for 9 months off of work and medical bills.  In addition to this the loan would need to pay for a temp replacing the woman in order to ensure job security for them once they come back in order for it to be fair and tolerated by the businesses.  That's a big loan!  

Second problem, the repayment.  There are several reasons women choose abortion: being unmarried, being in school, not having the income to afford a child, and so on.  Looking at the proposal above, the numbers wouldn't add up.  She would need much more than a year or two to pay back such a loan.  

Third problem, why would the demand of repayment be less time for a woman who chooses to keep the child than one that chooses to give it up for adoption?  The woman who keeps the child would need to pay to take care of it and have a larger accumulated interest than the woman who gives it away for adoption?  Poor lady.

I think it would be lose-lose situation by both the agency funding it and the woman who takes this option.  

-Margaret


(Edited by Mad_dog 5/7/2002 at 12:45 AM.)

(Edited by admin 11/13/2002 at 6:19 PM).
 


Posts: 8 | Posted: 12:41 AM on May 7, 2002 | IP
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I'm only new here and Mad Dog's post raises some questions.

Has she even read the study that she's trying to refute? In one sentence she doesn't even know the names of the people who carried out the research, so how does she know enough to know how they did their research?

Does anyone have a link to where I can read the study?

And Mad Dog claims that women need 9 months off work when they're pregnant. No they don't. There's only a very few rare cases where it's impossible for a woman to work and in most cases working till 6 weeks before the due date is what's done.

I don't understand what this whole thing of giving women loans that get repaid within a certain amount of time is about. It sounded more like trying to bribe women into adoption. Maybe I'm not getting this loan idea because I'm Australian and over here we have a decent welfare system, maternity leave (paid leave in the public sector and large companies) subsidised housing and childcare subsidies. I can tell you as a single mother who decided to continue my pregnancy that I wouldn't have been interested in some loan that I had to pay within a certain period of time, and if it had been the only thing available and not all the things I just mentioned, I would have aborted.

The Australian government and employers can afford to do all those things and ensure job security for the women who use paid maternity leave, and all without asking for a single cent of it back. Why can't the US government do the same??
 


Posts: 1 | Posted: 03:03 AM on May 11, 2002 | IP
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You're right Violet Crumble, I haven't read this study because neither the researchers names nor the title of the study was said on the pros/cons page which outlined this argument: Pro 1, "Two researchers have concluded that legalizing abortion in the United States in the 1970s led to the drop in crime seen in the country two decades later."  Upon your request I found out who they are John Donohue and Steven Levitt, the article title is The impact of legalized abortion on crime.  The article can be found at http://www.bepress.com/blewp/default/vol2000/iss2/art7/.  I will respond to you once I have finished reading it.  


(Edited by Mad_dog 5/14/2002 at 01:52 AM.)


(Edited by Mad_dog 5/14/2002 at 1:48 PM.)

(Edited by admin 11/13/2002 at 6:20 PM).
 


Posts: 8 | Posted: 01:50 AM on May 14, 2002 | IP
maria

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There are many programs to help women with there pregnancy situations.  The information is not hard to come by.  All you have to do is look.  Most woman that I know choose abortion because they are imbarrassed, they are afraid of people judging them and an abortion is an easy way to hide their sin.  Woman don't have abortions because they can't take care of the child.  They do it because they are afraid or selfish.  One situation is when the girl gets pregnant and the man doesn't want anything to do with it.  Another popular one is the "I don't want to loose my perfect figure."  also there's the hush hush I don't want my parents to find out.  
    There are options, many options.  So few women wish to take them.
    Back to the original subject of wether or not legalizing abortion has anything to do with the crime rate, I do believe it does have an effect but not a positive one.  Unfortunately the more I look at the world around me I notice that good morals hardly exhist.  All around you more and more people are saying that it's ok to murder, cheat, steal, and rape.  It used to be as long as no  one knows.  Now it's who cares if everyone knows.  People are beginning to except too much these days.  "So my child skipped class, we did when we were kids."  "Ok so my 15 year old daughter wants to move in with her 16 year old boyfriend, well I was 16 when I had her, why not go ahead.Everyone else has a girl on the side, why can't I have one too?"  If you actually listen to what people talk about in the work place you'll see what I'm talking about too.  Everyone knows not to cheat on your spouse but if you have an affair it's ok because people do it all the time.  "Divorce your husband if you're having problems, it's ok people do it all the time.  Go ahead smoke a joint, your parents did it, mine still do."  The problem with crime is that all you need is someone to say go ahead and do it.  You may know that it's wrong but if you watch and see people do the wrong things and it doesn't come back on them, they will never stop.  Even Eve at the tree of knowledge was told by the snake to touch the tree to see if any harm would come her.  When she wasn't harmed or punished immediately she then continued to try the fruit when she knew she wasn't suposed to.
    Crime gets worse and worse because we've become less harsh on the punishments and many crimes aren't even seen as crimes anymore.  It's just the norm.



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DSR
 


Posts: 12 | Posted: 05:45 AM on June 13, 2002 | IP
maria

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During the summer studies show that when the icecream sales increase, so do the amount of rape cases.  Studies are'nt always correct.  Just because crime goes down, it doesn't mean it is the cause of one event.


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DSR
 


Posts: 12 | Posted: 5:16 PM on June 13, 2002 | IP
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No.  Crime rates have actually increased.  Back alley abortions are considered a crime themselves, and they are becoming popular since the steady decrease in belief that abortion is sociably unacceptable.  People just believe that if anyone ever found out they had an abortion, not only would they be going against their faith if they were christian, but people would shun them for 'killing a baby.'  Also, abortions have led to a 21% increase in rape, incest and back alley abortions.  People believe that it is ok to commit incest and rape since people can just get an abortion now a days.  It might be just a mindset or mental problem that leads people to this belief, but even my ex friend, Maximillian, believed rape was ok if you made sure the victim got an abortion.  Crime rates also increase because of the money needed to supply for an abortion.  Robbery has increased 17% over the past 2 years, and statistics show that it is because people cannot afford certain things, most of which being an abortion or the such.  However, i am for abortion, even crime increases.  A also slightly agree with stacey, but creating that kind of program would take it out of our tax money, which the government would see as bad since they do not recieve our taxes.  Abortions are therefore an increaser in crime, but morally just in my opinion.
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 5:11 PM on September 20, 2002 | IP
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No.  Crime rates have actually increased.  Back alley abortions are considered a crime themselves, and they are becoming popular since the steady decrease in belief that abortion is sociably unacceptable.  People just believe that if anyone ever found out they had an abortion, not only would they be going against their faith if they were christian, but people would shun them for 'killing a baby.'  Also, abortions have led to a 21% increase in rape, incest and back alley abortions.  People believe that it is ok to commit incest and rape since people can just get an abortion now a days.  It might be just a mindset or mental problem that leads people to this belief, but even my ex friend, Maximillian, believed rape was ok if you made sure the victim got an abortion.  Crime rates also increase because of the money needed to supply for an abortion.  Robbery has increased 17% over the past 2 years, and statistics show that it is because people cannot afford certain things, most of which being an abortion or the such.  However, i am for abortion, even crime increases.  A also slightly agree with stacey, but creating that kind of program would take it out of our tax money, which the government would see as bad since they do not recieve our taxes.  Abortions are therefore an increaser in crime, but morally just in my opinion.


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I am Exxoss, come to save you all from your impending doom!!!!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

-Exxoss
 


Posts: 438 | Posted: 5:14 PM on September 20, 2002 | IP
Exxoss

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I'm smart :-)

Parental consult can lead to death!!!


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I am Exxoss, come to save you all from your impending doom!!!!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

-Exxoss
 


Posts: 438 | Posted: 4:02 PM on September 24, 2002 | IP
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Killemall
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 12:49 PM on October 23, 2002 | IP
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Your ma sucks balls
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 12:51 PM on October 23, 2002 | IP
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Well, I am sure glad we dont have any imature people on here that resort to childish name calling. Oh wait...


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No time for mediocrity.

People call me a Bible-Thumping reactionist ...and I'm proud to bear the name.
 


Posts: 293 | Posted: 10:04 PM on October 24, 2002 | IP
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poo poo head...naaah


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my name is madbilly....what did you expect me to be happy when my name says Mad in it...
 


Posts: 451 | Posted: 03:31 AM on October 25, 2002 | IP
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No, I do not I think that it has made it worse.  God probably made those planes hit the twin towers because of all the evil and I also think that we have a very evil country for making it legal to kill living babys. It is just like               a human because guess what they are humans. Any person that thinks it all right to kill a baby can go straight to hell


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None of you can anger me now, I'm in love and happy as a clam!
 


Posts: 34 | Posted: 12:48 PM on November 13, 2002 | IP
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i dont think you should be calling him names...i think abortion is terribly wrong but i would never call a person who agrees with it names...but i will call the women who abort whores....but give exxos a break he is only 13 and isnt as mature as others but that is expected with his young age.


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my name is madbilly....what did you expect me to be happy when my name says Mad in it...
 


Posts: 451 | Posted: 2:50 PM on November 13, 2002 | IP
Exxoss

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lol its no prob, billy, its kinda obvious im way more mature than freedomfighter.  And i am 13.  But i do a lot of research b/c i like debating.

Abortion could even be good in gods eyes.  (No offense to christians)  Perhaps god intended for humans to come up with the ideal of abortion because of the fact that he wanted people to be able to abort if they needed it.  Perhaps God wanted us all to realize that if a mother cant have a baby and cant live with not being able to know about its life, then she should have the chance to abort.


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I am Exxoss, come to save you all from your impending doom!!!!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

-Exxoss
 


Posts: 438 | Posted: 2:00 PM on November 17, 2002 | IP
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Quote from madbilly at 2:50 PM on November 13, 2002 :
i dont think you should be calling him names...i think abortion is terribly wrong but i would never call a person who agrees with it names...but i will call the women who abort whores....but give exxos a break he is only 13 and isnt as mature as others but that is expected with his young age.


You are a hypocite! First you criticize for someone calling names then you turn around and name-call. You called women who have abortions "whores" knowing nothing about their personal life except that they were injected with semen at least once and decided not to carry the fetus to term. SHAME on you!

 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 8:50 PM on January 9, 2003 | IP
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exxos your very smart for a 13 yr old kid i commend you on that im young also im only 15 but you see what you said about abortion being ok in gods eyes? no! for he creates us all in our mothers womb so why weould killing his creation be right in his eyes? ITs juss as bad as if i went to your house and slained yhour whole faimily im killing his children which is wrong! so you see its not right to him and never will be we should all take the time to ask the people who are aborted if it is right but we cant for they are dead, Also the fact that we havent cured aids comes to play how do we not know a baby we aborted was not teh person to cure aids?


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Raven<br>(qoute never more)<br>
 


Posts: 15 | Posted: 9:45 PM on March 21, 2003 | IP
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Also the fact that we havent cured aids comes to play how do we not know a baby we aborted was not teh person to cure aids?

We know that because it makes ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE.   If someone had a destiny to cure AIDS, then being aborted wouldn't be part of that destiny.   If there is no destiny, then why would you even propose that fetus X would be the person to cure AIDS?
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 3:21 PM on April 1, 2003 | IP
    
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