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masterchief

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<b>W</b>hen kerry says he is pro-choice he is not saying "I eat babies yum yum", he is indirectly supporting abortion, let me clarify he beleives a womens body is her own and she may do what she wants with it, it's her right to an abortion its her body and her uterus. so you think abortion is wrong, well what about in these cases:<b>#1</b>Your daugther of age 18  is raped she is pregnant the baby has aids and only has 2 months to live what do you do?<b>#2</b>Your daugther of age eight, yes age eight is raped and if she has the baby she will die in the process, what do you do?
<br>

<b>We all have a voice, let yours be heard</b><br>
<a href="http://www.facelesstragedies.us">Visit my site</a>

(Edited by masterchief 11/8/2004 at 6:34 PM).
 


Posts: 1 | Posted: 6:31 PM on November 8, 2004 | IP
ss20man

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let me clarify he beleives a womens body is her own and she may do what she wants with it[i]
So if I want to sit at a bar and get drunk, then drive down the road, and kill so family, then that is my right also?
I wonder how many abortions we would have if we stop killing un-born babies for convenience, and allow for health, rape, ect?[i]
 


Posts: 5 | Posted: 5:23 PM on November 9, 2004 | IP
JJ

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Quote from ss20man at 5:23 PM on November 9, 2004 :
let me clarify he beleives a womens body is her own and she may do what she wants with it[i]
So if I want to sit at a bar and get drunk, then drive down the road, and kill so family, then that is my right also?


You have absolutely no idea about abortion.
1) Prove that a fetus is a baby
2) Prove that a woman should be forced to donate her bodily resources to it.
3) admit that your driving scenario does not compare as your family are not growing in your body and causing you physical and emotional harm.

Quote from ss20man at 5:23 PM on November 9, 2004 : I wonder how many abortions we would have if we stop killing un-born babies for convenience, and allow for health, rape, ect?[i]


Unborn babies? Of course you refer to yourself as a pre-dead corpse, right?

Please explain how a rape exception would work, given the low conviction rates for rape. Please explain why you are refering to pregnancy (life threatening, ALWAYS physically harmful) and motherhood are an "inconvenience".

If abortion was only legal in the circumstances you've mentioned, there would still be abortions - just look at South America where the World Health Organisation states 4 million women die a year from illegal abortions -  that figure doesn't even include abortions by women who survive, so a lot of abortions are being carried out.

You wouldn't save "babies" - you'd kill women.



(Edited by JJ 11/24/2004 at 5:11 PM).


-------
Womens rights are just that: rights.
 


Posts: 21 | Posted: 09:51 AM on November 24, 2004 | IP
Sol

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[b]Quote from JJ at 09:51 AM on November 24,

You wouldn't save "babies" - you'd kill women.



Correction - Women would kill themselves through their own illegal actions.

(Edited by Sol 1/9/2005 at 05:04 AM).
 


Posts: 60 | Posted: 05:03 AM on January 9, 2005 | IP
got_dooie

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1) Prove that a fetus is a baby
2) Prove that a woman should be forced to donate her bodily resources to it.


First, define baby.  If you are admitting that a baby is a person that has his/her own DNA set that is independent that of the mother's then science has proved that it is unquestionable whether a fetus is a baby or not.  Science has proven that at the instant the two gamettes meet, a new set of DNA is created and at day 42 of conception, brain waves are detected, so therefore a person.

There's no need to prove that the mother should contribute her bodily resources to that of her child's because if abortion is made illegal, then she's required to.  The reason that she should be forced to do such is because her body is controlled by the government everyday and at every hour.  Seat belt laws, prostitution laws, and the most real is the draft.


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I always live in the past, the present is not not, the future is not yet, therfore only the past.
 


Posts: 84 | Posted: 12:08 PM on January 19, 2005 | IP
Steeeeve

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Quote from JJ at 09:51 AM on November 24, 2004 :
Quote from ss20man at 5:23 PM on November 9, 2004 :
let me clarify he beleives a womens body is her own and she may do what she wants with it[i]
So if I want to sit at a bar and get drunk, then drive down the road, and kill so family, then that is my right also?


You have absolutely no idea about abortion.
1) Prove that a fetus is a baby
2) Prove that a woman should be forced to donate her bodily resources to it.
3) admit that your driving scenario does not compare as your family are not growing in your body and causing you physical and emotional harm.

Quote from ss20man at 5:23 PM on November 9, 2004 : I wonder how many abortions we would have if we stop killing un-born babies for convenience, and allow for health, rape, ect?[i]


Unborn babies? Of course you refer to yourself as a pre-dead corpse, right?

Please explain how a rape exception would work, given the low conviction rates for rape. Please explain why you are refering to pregnancy (life threatening, ALWAYS physically harmful) and motherhood are an "inconvenience".

If abortion was only legal in the circumstances you've mentioned, there would still be abortions - just look at South America where the World Health Organisation states 4 million women die a year from illegal abortions -  that figure doesn't even include abortions by women who survive, so a lot of abortions are being carried out.

You wouldn't save "babies" - you'd kill women.



(Edited by JJ 11/24/2004 at 5:11 PM).


You say prove a "fetus" is a baby...I think it should be the other way around.  Prove that a fetus is NOT a baby.  If you don't know...shouldn't you play it safe?  Once you assume it is a baby everything else seems to fall into place



 


Posts: 6 | Posted: 01:53 AM on March 3, 2005 | IP
James

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I'm going to give an answer to everyone's comments and questions. This may take awhile, but I'll address them all with my opinions.

1. A new life is created at conception and is continually growing. One of the seven conditions of being alive. Dead things don't grow. Trees grow. Whales grow. Unborn babies grow. And 'unborn' doesn't mean 'not alive'.

2. A woman's body is not her own, it's God's. And if you don't agree with this, the baby is still hers and her husband's, it's not just hers.

3. It's crazy that today a woman can kill her own child, but you so much as leave your dog in the car to run into the store for ten minutes, you end up on the evening news. And forget about trying to cut down trees or hunt. You'll get sued and put all over the paper for 'committing murder'.

When did animals become more important than humans?

"And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth..."
"...and have dominion over... every living thing that moveth upon the earth."

4. If we made women having abortions illegal, I believe we could stop them. And because you think we can't stop them, does that mean you just stand by?

Students bring guns to school... so let's just give the teachers bullet-proof vests, we can't stop them.

5. If a woman is raped, that doesn't mean she should automatically kill her child. I think that the father should be required to care for the child, and if he's not decent enough to care for his own child, then the mother should be forced to.

And if she is found abusive or anything to get out of raising the baby, then that baby should be placed at the top of the list at an orphanage. Or have a family member raise it. And if the mother is abusive to get out of it, then she should have to give up 1/2 of her income to raise it. Unfortunately, you can't make people love, but you can make them take responsibility for their actions. If a woman kills her unborn baby, then she should be charged with murder and so should anyone found offering abortion services. That person should be treated as a serial killer.



IF YOU DON'T WANT CHILDREN, DON'T HAVE SEX!!!
Sex isn't for fun, it's for procreation.
 


Posts: 5 | Posted: 4:19 PM on March 5, 2005 | IP
dreadon

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When did animals become more important than humans?

"And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth..."
"...and have dominion over... every living thing that moveth upon the earth."

4. If we made women having abortions illegal, I believe we could stop them. And because you think we can't stop them, does that mean you just stand by?

Students bring guns to school... so let's just give the teachers bullet-proof vests, we can't stop them.


Your view of reality is very diluted.

I don't belive humans animals are more important then humans...but at lest animals only ever kill out of nesisty. You cant say that about humans. Never have been and undoubtably never will be.

And your whole god quote. Humans are living things...that move...upon the earth....to not see that in the message leads me to assume your preferance in dogma leaves you no chance to have an opinion of your own.


Again, your grip on reality is all out of wack. If abortion was made illegal it would not stop abortions. Same way commiting murder is illegal but people still do it. Laws dont stop crimes. Laws are the means by which we catagorize a criminal so the proper punishment can be delt. Abortions happend long before they were made legal so what makes you think every women will just stop dead in thier tracks because its against the law?

Your bullet proof vest is an excellent idea by the way. Im sure it wouldnt stop a kid from trying to shoot his teacher if that was his intent...but at lest the teacher would have a better chance of surviving a bullet/s.
 


Posts: 7 | Posted: 7:19 PM on March 29, 2005 | IP
Peter87

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Quote from James at 4:19 PM on March 5, 2005 :
I'm going to give an answer to everyone's comments and questions. This may take awhile, but I'll address them all with my opinions.

1. A new life is created at conception and is continually growing. One of the seven conditions of being alive. Dead things don't grow. Trees grow. Whales grow. Unborn babies grow. And 'unborn' doesn't mean 'not alive'.

2. A woman's body is not her own, it's God's. And if you don't agree with this, the baby is still hers and her husband's, it's not just hers.

3. It's crazy that today a woman can kill her own child, but you so much as leave your dog in the car to run into the store for ten minutes, you end up on the evening news. And forget about trying to cut down trees or hunt. You'll get sued and put all over the paper for 'committing murder'.

When did animals become more important than humans?

"And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth..."
"...and have dominion over... every living thing that moveth upon the earth."

4. If we made women having abortions illegal, I believe we could stop them. And because you think we can't stop them, does that mean you just stand by?

Students bring guns to school... so let's just give the teachers bullet-proof vests, we can't stop them.

5. If a woman is raped, that doesn't mean she should automatically kill her child. I think that the father should be required to care for the child, and if he's not decent enough to care for his own child, then the mother should be forced to.

And if she is found abusive or anything to get out of raising the baby, then that baby should be placed at the top of the list at an orphanage. Or have a family member raise it. And if the mother is abusive to get out of it, then she should have to give up 1/2 of her income to raise it. Unfortunately, you can't make people love, but you can make them take responsibility for their actions. If a woman kills her unborn baby, then she should be charged with murder and so should anyone found offering abortion services. That person should be treated as a serial killer.



IF YOU DON'T WANT CHILDREN, DON'T HAVE SEX!!!
Sex isn't for fun, it's for procreation.


Ok its time to destroy your post...

1. Get some basic biology skills - to be alive you need to have ALL seven not just one, and for a start that refers to species on a whole not to individuals.

2. Religious arguments mean nothing, prove to me there is a god and I will acept that god owns the womans body. The father isn't donating is bodily resources to give birth to the child.

3. The woman isn't killing her child, she is stopping the potential of having a child. Its only like wearing a condom, that stops the potential to have a child.

Oh and again biblical quotes mean nothing.

4. Women would have abortions anyway, just look at history, during WW2 women had ilegal abortions after sleeping with soldiers etc. And all through history there have been methods of ilegaly aborting a child.

5. Ok, right you can force the father to care for the child, wait a second, he raped her, do you realy think that he is going to hang around to raise the child? oh and if he is wont he be in prison? think before you type rubish. plus if he isn't decent enougth to raise a child, well he just raped someone....

Ok do you realy think forceing children on people is a good idea? parents will hate the child, the child will have a crap childhood, will hate the parent(s) and probably end up in a crappy job with a crappy life,  or will be a drain on society. Surely a better option would be to surgest a tax increase to suport the extra boom on orphanages, oh wait your american, a tax raise god no! Let the poor starve aye?

If you don't want children don't have sex? did you forget the rape incedent? Hey I've found that contrceptions mighty handy, I prefer the phrase if you don't want children, use contraception!

Sex isn't for fun, it's for procreation... Actualy the last time I had sex it was fun, and if I remember rightly my girl friend isn't pregnant!

So please feel free to post some more religious right rubish about forceing the poor and rape victims to bring up children in poverty.


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Why should we bow to the will of anyone? Especialy a man who our country but another voted for?
 


Posts: 301 | Posted: 08:48 AM on March 30, 2005 | IP
K8

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I couldn't agree more with Peter87!

oh, and as an animal-loving freak, i would just like to say how dangerous it is to assume that your own species is more important than another simply because you are part of that species. It's also very naive.

Please put foward some arguments James in reponse to this, as i want to hear your reasoning for such a statment as

"When did animals become more important than humans?"

Who are you to rate the importance of certain lives in this world? I would imagine that any animal would value its own life above yours anyday.

oh, and one more thing - there's no use quoting the bible to me...ill just ignore it, as that book also states that "...women shall be subject to man...". Yes, ill put that one into practice. Cos i wanna be subjugated beneath the male sex and subsequently receive unequal rights.
[b][random] being 17 doesn't = naive...more like "open-minded"
 


Posts: 292 | Posted: 09:10 AM on April 15, 2005 | IP
Quardon7

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K8,
I was intrigued by your argument that humans are not more important than animals.  I wish to assert that you do not actually believe that, if you'll hear me out.
We only believe things when they carry beyond the level of intellectual assent and inform our actions, not just our ideas.  So if you examine yourself, I think you will find you do not actually believe animals are as important as humans, regardless of your belief that humans are nothing more than one species of animal.  Tell me, are you a vegan?  Do you wear clothing that was produced without the use of any animal parts?  You see, the test of your belief will come in whether you use animals in any ways in which you would not use humans.  In your house, do you have a bed?  Drapes?  Any number of other things likely produced with animal matter?  Do you live in an urban setting that has immensely disrupted the natural environment of numerous animal species?  The very fact that you live in our society, one that is continually sustained by the employment and slaughter of animals, the fact that you are ingrained in that society enough to use computers and post on forums (not animal products themselves, but the produce of a society built on the backs of animals) is enough to assure me that you do not truly believe animals equal to humans.
There are three alternatives to this obvious discrepancy.  One is that you're a hypocrite, you realize all these ways in which you use animals but you continue to do them, while still asserting that animals are as important as humans.  The second option is that you are intensely narcissistic; you realize the discrepancy, but you are so self focused that if you were able you would use human parts and products in all the same ways because you feel yourself the important entity; you would raise and slaughter humans in flocks to provide for yourself.  The third, and by far most desirable option, is that you do not truly believe animals are as important as humans.  Perhaps you thought you believed it, but will realize as you examine your lifestyle that your behavior is not consistent with such beliefs.  Or perhaps you knew that you do not believe it, but you saw the opportunity to take a shot at the unqualified and unexplained claim of another.  In either case, I suspect that this is your position.  I do not think you are a hypocrite who has so buried their conscience that they can powerfully assert one thing while they knowingly do the other.  Nor do I think that you are a narcissist who would readily employ all beings to her pleasure as she does humans.  I choose to give you the benefit of the doubt and say that you are a compassionate individual with a critical mind and good intentions, who has nobly asserted this proposition to keep others from becoming too proud.  However, I think you will find that this belief fails to meet consistency in your life; and that is one of the tests for the potency of a belief--is it consistent?  You may think animals are wonderful and valuable and important, but you do not treat them as equals with humans.  Something needs to change in you, your behavior as a member of this animal using (perhaps animal abusing) society, or your conviction that animals are the equals of humans.  Now, you will notice that I have made no argument to the effect that animals are less important than humans.  I have only asserted that you do not actually believe that, not on any meaningful level.  And as I am wearing a cotton shirt and soon to go to lunch where I will devour a variety of common animal products, I certainly have no right to claim that I believe it either.
A final example, if I may.  Suppose a man should come to you and say, "I'm going to kill something today.  I'll let you decide whether its a squirrel or a young girl."  Can you honestly say that it would be a difficult decision for you?   When you consider your life, can you really say that you do not choose the animal, rather than the human, to be killed on a daily basis by your perpetuation of our society?  And if you could choose the squirrel over the human, who would not find you deplorable?  I believe you are not so vile a creature as that.  But if I am misguided, I'm sure you'll correct me.


-------
-Quardon
 


Posts: 7 | Posted: 2:23 PM on September 30, 2005 | IP
K8

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Quardon7,
I thank you for your apparent concern in relation to the consistency between by beliefs and practices.

I never stated outright that i believe animals to be of equal importance to humans. I was using an extremely blunt statement to encourage a greater debate on the protection of animals AS WELL AS humans as, in his earlier posts, James had expressed his disgust at the fact that a woman will not be prosecuted for having an abortion, but would be for a) leaving her dog in a closed car or b) cutting down trees or hunting.

I was saying that such a comment as "When did animals become more important than humans?" is dangerous as he is implying that having such laws against hunting/environmental vandalism/etc. are not necessary.

Also, i think it was necessary for James to look at such a comment from an animals point of view - it would not be appreciated, i would imagine. Of course humans will value human life over that of animals, but we mustn't let that become a justification for the mistreatment or unnecessary killing of animals just because "we're more important".

My statement was blunt for a reason - blunt statements get people thinking and debating, and it seems it encouraged you to express your views.  



 


Posts: 292 | Posted: 03:48 AM on October 4, 2005 | IP
    
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