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       They're almost the exact same thing

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Sol

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I don't know if any of you have noticed this, but abortion is actually nearly identical to what slavery was in early America.  Think about it...

1.  Their purposes are very similar

The purpose of slavery was to allow the colonists to live lives of luxury by forcing suffering and labor on the black people.

The purpose of abortion is to allow people to behave irresponsibly by forcing death on the unborn children.

2.  Both of them target groups that have no control over whether they are in that group or not.

Black people were chosen for their race.

Unborn children are chosen because of their age.

3.  Both of them rationalized their actions by saying that the people they harmed 'weren't really human.'

By law, a black person was considered to be 3/5 of a human being.

Now people say that an unborn baby isn't entirely human.

4.  Both of them came up with words to describe people to make them sound like they are not human.

Black people were called 'niggers'

Unborn children are called 'fetuses'

5.  Both of them claimed they had a 'right' to do what they did so that they could continue living their immoral lifestyles.

Those who 'owned' slaves claimed to have a right to do so because they wanted to have an income without working for it.

Women who abort claim they have a right to do so because they want to continue living lives of sexual irresponsibility.

I am sure that the list of parallels between slavery and abortion could go on, but I'll leave it at that for now.

In conclusion, I can only hope that soon another Abraham Lincoln or another Martin Luther King Jr. will come along, because until they do, I fear that history will continue to tragically repeat itself.
 


Posts: 60 | Posted: 08:33 AM on January 10, 2005 | IP
Admiral Valdemar

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Quote from Sol at 08:33 AM on January 10, 2005 :
I don't know if any of you have noticed this, but abortion is actually nearly identical to what slavery was in early America.  Think about it...


If I thought about it really, I'd be too busy laughing at such an inane analogy.

1.  Their purposes are very similar

The purpose of slavery was to allow the colonists to live lives of luxury by forcing suffering and labor on the black people.

The purpose of abortion is to allow people to behave irresponsibly by forcing death on the unborn children.


I like how you ignore the possibility of rape or deformities causing birth complications. Naturally, all abortions are because slutty girls want to have protectionless sex day in, day out.

2.  Both of them target groups that have no control over whether they are in that group or not.

Black people were chosen for their race.

Unborn children are chosen because of their age.


Unborn children are unborn and have no real say since they aren't sentient entities (far from it), and most abortions occur when they are clumps of cells no different to a cancerous growth. A black adult is just a little bit different in this respect, but keep grasping at those straws.

In anycase, most pro-choicers support only up to second trimester abortions before any real neural development and activity takes place. It is rare and frowned upon for procedures to take place after that time.

3.  Both of them rationalized their actions by saying that the people they harmed 'weren't really human.'

By law, a black person was considered to be 3/5 of a human being.

Now people say that an unborn baby isn't entirely human.


A foetus isn't a human being anymore than a single sperm or egg is. Given a lot of societies rights aren't placed upon people until they are 18, why should such a limit not exist for something that isn't even remotely like a human baby, letalone adult?

4.  Both of them came up with words to describe people to make them sound like they are not human.

Black people were called 'niggers'

Unborn children are called 'fetuses'


Bravo. I'm loving the ability to compare an obviously derogatory term to one used by bloody medical specialists. Yes, those damn foetuses, another product of our backwards language.

5.  Both of them claimed they had a 'right' to do what they did so that they could continue living their immoral lifestyles.

Those who 'owned' slaves claimed to have a right to do so because they wanted to have an income without working for it.

Women who abort claim they have a right to do so because they want to continue living lives of sexual irresponsibility.


The rights of slaves were rescinded by the state because our fore fathers felt being imperialistic resource nuts was better character building than being fair and tolerant. The Africans and Asians of the world have rights as any human since the only distinguishing difference between them and Caucasians is melanin content.

Just try and compare a foetus to an adult. But, I digress. You seem to have it in your head that abortions exist for the sole purpose of keeping a nymphomaniac from raising an inconvenient family. Perhaps if you knew how horrible an abortion was and how there are far more reasons for them, you'd maybe have a clue. I'll just add that a foetus, by definition, is a parasite and that the mother's body takes priority unless the mother says otherwise. Don't like it? Go and tell the mother she has her rights withdrawn because a bunch of immature cells somehow constitutes a fully rights entitled human being nowadays.

I am sure that the list of parallels between slavery and abortion could go on, but I'll leave it at that for now.


Good, because my sides have split enough for now.

In conclusion, I can only hope that soon another Abraham Lincoln or another Martin Luther King Jr. will come along, because until they do, I fear that history will continue to tragically repeat itself.


Because we all know slavery = abortion and there's not a shred of anything resembling a difference between them. Oh, wait...

(Edited by Admiral Valdemar 1/11/2005 at 9:56 PM).


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"An Outside Context Problem was the sort of thing most civilisations encountered just once, and which they tended to encounter rather in the same way a sentence encountered a full stop."
-Iain M. Banks, Excession
 


Posts: 6 | Posted: 9:53 PM on January 11, 2005 | IP
Yod Heh Vav Heh

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Quote from Sol at 08:33 AM on January 10, 2005 :
I don't know if any of you have noticed this, but abortion is actually nearly identical to what slavery was in early America.  Think about it...


Thought about it...yes, abortion is identical, i mean, we go to foetusland, barter for foetuses from the local foetuses, or take them as spoils of war with the foetuses, then we put the foetuses to work after lengthy boat journeys for the rest of their lives.

1.  Their purposes are very similar

The purpose of slavery was to allow the colonists to live lives of luxury by forcing suffering and labor on the black people.

The purpose of abortion is to allow people to behave irresponsibly by forcing death on the unborn children.


The purpose of miscarriage would be God/Nature's way of doing this too, right?

The purpose of slavery was to use full grown self aware humans like cattle and get them to do the laborious work for you. Abortion is about killing a gestating organism that has the potential to become  equivalent to one of those slaves.

Don't confuse potential human existence with actual human existence. That's the part that shows this analogy to be deeply flawed.

2.  Both of them target groups that have no control over whether they are in that group or not.


So? This is true of lots of things, should children be allowed to drive, or take part in porn, or is that "equal to slavery"?

Black people were chosen for their race.

Unborn children are chosen because of their age.


No, foetuses are chosen because of their place of residence, more than anything, like cancers and infections. The two aren't comparable, you want to equate an unthinking organism with a full on thinking one. Is a gestating unthinking foetus really equal to a fully autonomous thinking human being? Are genes equal to personhood? Of course not.

3.  Both of them rationalized their actions by saying that the people they harmed 'weren't really human.'


If you're defining humanity by genes, rather than personality, yes it's wrong to label them both as "less than human" but if you're intending to refer to personhood, your analogy fails again.

By law, a black person was considered to be 3/5 of a human being.

Now people say that an unborn baby isn't entirely human.


Well, they're not. A human that never thinks is not fully human by any reasonable definition.

4.  Both of them came up with words to describe people to make them sound like they are not human.

Black people were called 'niggers'

Unborn children are called 'fetuses'


False comparison again.

5.  Both of them claimed they had a 'right' to do what they did so that they could continue living their immoral lifestyles.


Having an abortion means you have an immoral lifestyle now? I'm sure all those rape victims you just generalised think you're great right now.


Women who abort claim they have a right to do so because they want to continue living lives of sexual irresponsibility.


Yeah, rape victims are sexually irresponsible and want to get raped more. Sure.  People who just aren't ready to bring a baby into the world should be forced to, because you say so, not that you'd  actually help them with bringing up the kid you forced them to have. You'd just blame the parents.

I am sure that the list of parallels between slavery and abortion could go on, but I'll leave it at that for now.


Good, because it was a stupid comparison to make.

In conclusion, I can only hope that soon another Abraham Lincoln or another Martin Luther King Jr. will come along, because until they do, I fear that history will continue to tragically repeat itself.


This isn't about rights of potential children, we both know this is about subjigating and punishing women, your "pro life" sentiments evaporate when  you actually have to help out the living children.


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Posts: 22 | Posted: 2:16 PM on January 12, 2005 | IP
Lone_Prodigy

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Remember, a sentient being is not the same as an organism with the possibility of being a sentient being. Some cancerous tumors actually grow organs and teeth inside them- does that mean that chemotherapy is wrong, since we are killing tumors that may grow into sentient beings eventually?


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Death is irrelevant.<br>-Bean
 


Posts: 8 | Posted: 11:09 AM on January 24, 2005 | IP
got_dooie

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Remember, a sentient being is not the same as an organism with the possibility of being a sentient being. Some cancerous tumors actually grow organs and teeth inside them- does that mean that chemotherapy is wrong, since we are killing tumors that may grow into sentient beings eventually?


And you think that made sense?  Cancerous tumors cannot and will not ever be a sentient being because it has not a brain.  Emotions are the works of the intellect (not so much that of human intellect, but rather works of the brain to be able to feel).  So to say that some cancerous tumors can later have emotions is to say that trees will be able to as well.

--dooie


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I always live in the past, the present is not not, the future is not yet, therfore only the past.
 


Posts: 84 | Posted: 10:24 AM on January 25, 2005 | IP
Atlantis

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sen·tient   Audio pronunciation of "sentient" ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (snshnt, -sh-nt)
adj.

  1. Having sense perception; conscious: “The living knew themselves just sentient puppets on God's stage” (T.E. Lawrence).
  2. Experiencing sensation or feeling.

Exactly!  So no Cancer or Tumor will fall into that definition.

Abortion should remain legal though!  

Remember prohibition?  

That sure didn't stop the people from drinking did it?

If you made Abortion illegal, all that would do is force some women to go to an underground Doctor!

"Think About It"


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Posts: 27 | Posted: 11:35 PM on February 15, 2005 | IP
got_dooie

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Abortion should remain legal though!  

Remember prohibition?  

That sure didn't stop the people from drinking did it?

If you made Abortion illegal, all that would do is force some women to go to an underground Doctor!


Hmm...you seem to be comparing two totally different things here.  The problem with comparing prohibition and anti-abortion laws is that the two are completely different.  Let's compare for a second or two about liquor and killing innocent babies.
1. when people drink liquor.  It's just that.  Drinking liquor.  Yet when people kill their innocent unborns, most will have some kind of remorse and emotional teardown.
2. When prohibition was in place...people still knew how to brew their own stuff.  When anti-abortion law sets in, the women won't be able to abort their child by themselves.
3. when you are caught drinking when prohibition was constituted, the penalty is less severely than that of a woman aborting an unborn child when the law of anti-abortion is constituted.

So now you see the vast difference between the two.

I will agree with you however that women will go to underground doctors and such, but the number of abortions will be MUCH MUCH less than when abortion is legal.  Besides, if and once abortion is illegalized, the responsibility of the child's death is upon the mother in this life (to man's law) as well as in the next (God's Law).  So it's a lose-lose situation for her...

--dooie


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I always live in the past, the present is not not, the future is not yet, therfore only the past.
 


Posts: 84 | Posted: 08:37 AM on February 22, 2005 | IP
Atlantis

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Ya know you are pretty narrow minded!

People are going to do what ever the hell they want whether it's legal or not.  That's what I was comparing.  When they made drinking illegal, all that did was create bootlegging, and speakeasy's, not to mention Nascar and the Mob got a lot more powerful from all that money.  My point is that it diddn't stop people from drinking did it?  Same thing with Abortion, if you make it illegal, people(woman) who absolutely don't want a baby will find a way to get an abortion and Doctor's will do them because there's money in it!  Duh

I'm pro life

Just so ya know

I'm just saying it's better that at least it's regulated and not in someone's basement and underground like!  

Use your head while your reading next time or educate yourself a little better before you start jumping all over me!


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Posts: 27 | Posted: 11:20 PM on February 22, 2005 | IP
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Also before abortion was legal, we can see in history that women would throw themselves downstairs to try to give them selves an "abortion", or stick knitting needles in themselves, so you will fins that the underground doctors will be the tip of the iceburg and what women will do themselves is much more dangerous.

You need to change atitude not law.


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Posts: 301 | Posted: 2:15 PM on February 23, 2005 | IP
got_dooie

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I'm pro life

Just so ya know

I'm just saying it's better that at least it's regulated and not in someone's basement and underground like!  

Use your head while your reading next time or educate yourself a little better before you start jumping all over me!


Are you kidding me?  Being prolife is not subjective, it is more objective.  Contrary to popular belief, abortion does not have gray areas.  It is either right or wrong.  And by morality, we see that it is wrong.  You are either for abortion or you are not, unless you are a relativist and everything depends, but still so, you are wrong.

Educate myself?  Here's the problem you DON'T see.  The problem you don't see is that if abortion is regulated and made legal (and it certainly is now) that millions of innocent lives are killed every single year.  I would rather have a dumb mother kill herself and her baby than to have millions die just because someone wants them dead.  This is not to say that I value certain lives more than others, but it is to say that the death of a thousand per year does not outweigh the death of the millions.  Moreso, if the mother does not want the child that bad and decides to do whatever she could to get rid of it, she would certainly realize (by rationality) that she can, in the process, harm herself as well.  So here the decision to harm herself is upon her unlike her unborn child, who has no choice in the saying.  So the lesser of the two evil would be to make abortion illegal to save millions of innocent lives.

--dooie


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I always live in the past, the present is not not, the future is not yet, therfore only the past.
 


Posts: 84 | Posted: 10:42 AM on February 24, 2005 | IP
Peter87

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Who are you to say that a woman should have to go through pregnancy if she doesn't want to, or if she is raped?
Like I said earlier, you can't stop abortion by law, peoples attitudes need chnaging. Abortion should still be an option, but should be a final option, and a woman should be given the choice, but should be advised to give the child up for adoption, rather than abortion.
And scientificaly an unborn baby is a fetus, and I can't give you scientific evidence one way or the other, without researching, but if you can prove that an unborn baby is coniscious/has feelings etc at what stage then I will agree that abortion should be ilegal after that point. However currently there is that system in place, but if you can provbe that straight after conception a fetus is conscious/has feelings then I will agree abortion should be ilegal.


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Why should we bow to the will of anyone? Especialy a man who our country but another voted for?
 


Posts: 301 | Posted: 12:47 PM on February 24, 2005 | IP
got_dooie

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Who are you to say that a woman should have to go through pregnancy if she doesn't want to, or if she is raped?
Like I said earlier, you can't stop abortion by law, peoples attitudes need chnaging. Abortion should still be an option, but should be a final option, and a woman should be given the choice, but should be advised to give the child up for adoption, rather than abortion.
And scientificaly an unborn baby is a fetus, and I can't give you scientific evidence one way or the other, without researching, but if you can prove that an unborn baby is coniscious/has feelings etc at what stage then I will agree that abortion should be ilegal after that point. However currently there is that system in place, but if you can provbe that straight after conception a fetus is conscious/has feelings then I will agree abortion should be ilegal.


Ok genius, apparently science disproves the notion of unborn babies as non-human beings?...here's something for you to know.  At the instant of fertilization, a new set of DNA is created.  At day 21 after fertilization the heart beat of the child beats regularly (his/her own heart), and at day 40, brain waves are detected.  Now! if that doesn't constitute human being, I don't know what does.  On the other hand, abortions usually take place at least three months into the pregnancy.  

Consciousness does not constitute human beings, because there are people that are in vegetative states that are not conscious.  According to you, then, they are not human beings and should be killed.

Another point on a more philosophical level.  For example if you were going hunting and you see something in the bushes moving, but you don't know if it is a deer or a human.  Do you shoot anyway?  I would say not, because at the risk of killing another human.  Well the same goes with abortion.  Since science can only tell what is real by empirical data, it would not tell you that a fetus is a human.  But just in case that ensoulment has taken place at fertilization, we should not kill a human being.

Attitude needs changing?  Yes true, but in order for attitude to change, there needs to be guidance.  If the speed limit law isn't out, everyone would go at the speed the desire, hence there might be more accidents and deaths.  Also must we forget that (and I have posted this somewhere on this site before) the woman's body is controlled by the government everyday?  Seatbelt laws, prostitution laws, and the draft are just a few that I could think of.  So you see...the government does have a say in how our bodies should behave, and therefore leading to changing of behaviors.

--dooie

(Edited by got_dooie 2/24/2005 at 2:34 PM).


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I always live in the past, the present is not not, the future is not yet, therfore only the past.
 


Posts: 84 | Posted: 2:33 PM on February 24, 2005 | IP
Peter87

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I agree that abortion shouldn't take place after brain waves can be detected, or even after a heart beat, but the choice between a human life and a posible human life, is not a hard decision to make. And the dear analogy fails on one major isue, hunting is for fun, abortions clearly aren't. However using your analogy, if you could see antlers then you would presume that it was a deer, in the same way we can see that there isn't a heart beat and there arn't active brain waves.
Speeding analogy, this isn't already ilegal, you are surgesting ilegal to legal with speed limit and legal to ilegal with abortion, therefore complete differance.
Ensoulment? wouldn't that require faith, so how could you enforce it on athiests based around this? It would be like forceing christians to do sothing that is typicaly athiest.


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Posts: 301 | Posted: 5:34 PM on February 24, 2005 | IP
got_dooie

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I agree that abortion shouldn't take place after brain waves can be detected, or even after a heart beat, but the choice between a human life and a posible human life, is not a hard decision to make. And the dear analogy fails on one major isue, hunting is for fun, abortions clearly aren't. However using your analogy, if you could see antlers then you would presume that it was a deer, in the same way we can see that there isn't a heart beat and there arn't active brain waves.

Again you fail to see that I draw analogy from something moving in the bushes, not that you see antlers.  Besides if you were to see antlers you would know that it would be a deer, and in the case of abortion, science has given us empirical data that a human being exists at fertilization with his/her own set of DNA and just a short time later, his/her own heart and brain.  So in a sense these are the antlers of the human being that we should recognize.  Again you "agree that abortion shouldn't take place after brain waves can be detected or even after a heart beat," whereas abortions take place at least 3 months into the pregnacy...don't you see the problem?

Speeding analogy, this isn't already ilegal, you are surgesting ilegal to legal with speed limit and legal to ilegal with abortion, therefore complete differance.

I was not drawing analogy from the two types of laws, be it legal or illegal.  What I was getting it as is that by making something illegal, it would certain change a person's attitude of behavior towards a certain action.  Hence by making abortions illegal, attitudes will certainly change.

So in all reality, my analogies, or using examples to argue a my points do not fail.  Rather you misunderstood and misinterpreted them.

Ensoulment? wouldn't that require faith, so how could you enforce it on athiests based around this? It would be like forceing christians to do sothing that is typicaly athiest.


Yes, I made the mistake of bringing this up, yet this is a discussion for another time because this would have to deal explicitly with God as the sufficient and final cause for human beings.

(Edited by got_dooie 2/25/2005 at 07:15 AM).


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I always live in the past, the present is not not, the future is not yet, therfore only the past.
 


Posts: 84 | Posted: 07:14 AM on February 25, 2005 | IP
Peter87

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Ok I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on this, but I do belive that abortion should only be a final option, for example, to force a woman to give birth to a child of her rapeist, or if the womans health is in danger (yes I know that abortions are more dangerouse than most births but some births can be lethal to the mother). But abortions, after having un-protected sex etc, probably shouldn't be allowed... You may say well its all or nothing, but to use an analogy similair to yours, there are differnt speed limits for differnt types of roads.


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Posts: 301 | Posted: 10:23 AM on February 25, 2005 | IP
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The argument that slavery is like abortion is not a bad one at all, in fact the two are very similar.  The original poster (with all due respect) did not do a good job at showing this.  First I would like to say that it mainly is an argument for someone that thinks life begins at conception but thinks that people should have the right to choose.

If you have the above view then slavery and abortion become very similar.  Let’s see how...

"I do not support abortion because I think it is a human however I believe in a women’s right to choose"

Compared to....

"I do not support slavery because I think it is a human however I believe in a slaveholder’s right to choose"

Notice they are very much the same.  The same logic is used in both...You don’t support the issue but you think that you should not impose that belief on others.

If this happened then we would still have slavery today.  Ab Lincoln would just say "I should not push my views on others even though I'm against slavery."

If you still do not see how they are similar feel free to respond.

Now, if you believe a "clump of cells" is not a life aka at conception then we have a different argument.  If you believe that murder of a human is wrong and that you should do whatever it takes to prevent it then we are on the right track....Lets just say no one knows when "life" begins.  If this is the case where should we start it?  Should we set it at birth or at conception?  These are two possibilities but maybe it is 12 days...3months...5 years...who knows?  If you do not know then wouldn't it make sense to play it on the safe side?  If you feel that saving lives is good then just say "since we don't know...lets play it on the safe side until we do know."  This way, if you are wrong, no murder is done.

Then the harsh cases, rape and what not.  With rape and incest you haven't much of a case if you think life begins at conception...if you don't believe this read the above paragraph.  Moving along based on life begins at conception...If you abort based on rape then you are punishing two for the crime of one.  The child dies and the mother is hurt with a dead child and being raped.  Does that seem fair?  Not to mention the number of studies that suggest rape victims regret the decision to abort the child... Incest has the same things apply.  Well, what about if the kid is gonna die at birth?  Are you suggesting that you kill the kid because you are pretty sure it will die?  Besides the number of cases were this turned out not to be true, this would be like saying it is ok to kill your grandpa because he is gonna die soon anyway.  If the mother and kid will die you save the life you can.

Hopefully this helps with some of the issues about abortion....I tried to use logic for most conclusions, let me know what you think.

 


Posts: 6 | Posted: 01:40 AM on March 3, 2005 | IP
Sol

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Quote from Steeeeve at 01:40 AM on March 3, 2005 :
The argument that slavery is like abortion is not a bad one at all, in fact the two are very similar.  The original poster (with all due respect) did not do a good job at showing this.


I'm glad at least someone agrees with me.

And I know I didn't do the best job presenting it.  It was late, and I was kind of in a hurry.

(Edited by Sol 3/6/2005 at 03:31 AM).
 


Posts: 60 | Posted: 03:30 AM on March 6, 2005 | IP
    
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