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     Child or not?

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TruthAndLove

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Can someone tell me why a child is a child if the mother says it is, and it is not a child if the mother says it is not?  In other words, she chooses and the rest of the world has to agree with her choice, because it is her choice.  Is this just crazy or am I missing something here?


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"Love the sinner, hate the sin".
 


Posts: 1 | Posted: 4:59 PM on April 11, 2005 | IP
K8

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Well, the mother is the best person to make such a choice - she has to go through the pregnancy and potentially look after the child once it is born. Do you think we should take away a woman's right to choose?hammingaround@hotmail.com
 


Posts: 292 | Posted: 07:42 AM on April 15, 2005 | IP
got_dooie

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Well, the mother is the best person to make such a choice - she has to go through the pregnancy and potentially look after the child once it is born. Do you think we should take away a woman's right to choose?


Do you even read other posts or do you just post in them?  In the other posts that you've posted in, I've already pointed out why freedom is not being free to do everything one wishes.  There are laws that govern people.  Again to repeat myself.  Women are constantly told what they CANNOT do.  Prostitution laws prohibit her from doing such acts with her body.  The government controls her body in many other ways.  The draft, for example, is signing her body up to war (and die if that would happen).  So freedom of choice is to choose for one's being...not for other's being.  And in this case the baby's being.


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I always live in the past, the present is not not, the future is not yet, therfore only the past.
 


Posts: 84 | Posted: 12:31 PM on April 15, 2005 | IP
Peter87

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You can refuse to draft, or at least you can in any civiliased country.


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Why should we bow to the will of anyone? Especialy a man who our country but another voted for?
 


Posts: 301 | Posted: 8:24 PM on April 15, 2005 | IP
K8

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Quote from got_dooie at 12:31 PM on April 15, 2005 :
Well, the mother is the best person to make such a choice - she has to go through the pregnancy and potentially look after the child once it is born. Do you think we should take away a woman's right to choose?


Do you even read other posts or do you just post in them?  In the other posts that you've posted in, I've already pointed out why freedom is not being free to do everything one wishes.  There are laws that govern people.  Again to repeat myself.  Women are constantly told what they CANNOT do.  Prostitution laws prohibit her from doing such acts with her body.  The government controls her body in many other ways.  The draft, for example, is signing her body up to war (and die if that would happen).  So freedom of choice is to choose for one's being...not for other's being.  And in this case the baby's being.


First of all, i'm in no way forcing you to respond to my posts...my arguments aren't going to change dramatically overnight - i'll always have the same opinion.

Second of all, are you saying then that, because women are already heavily controlled by the government, we should go right on ahead and increase this control? That seems logical...oh, and fair. Very fair...

 


Posts: 292 | Posted: 12:03 AM on April 16, 2005 | IP
got_dooie

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First of all, i'm in no way forcing you to respond to my posts...my arguments aren't going to change dramatically overnight - i'll always have the same opinion.

Second of all, are you saying then that, because women are already heavily controlled by the government, we should go right on ahead and increase this control? That seems logical...oh, and fair. Very fair...


Surely you spoke of one important word: opinion.  Opinions ARE subjective and most times DO NOT define or reveal what is true.  Therefore opinions are good, but arguments based on opinions cannot be expected to be taken as a valid, logical argument.

And yes, I pointed out that women are controlled by the government for lesser things than abortion.  Their whole lives are controlled, therefore controlling something that would not kill the child or the mother, in no way takes away the dignity of the woman or the child.


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I always live in the past, the present is not not, the future is not yet, therfore only the past.
 


Posts: 84 | Posted: 11:07 PM on April 18, 2005 | IP
K8

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true, opinions are subjective. So is religion. Countless times, religion is used as a basis for arguments on these forums - do you consider those arguments valid?
 


Posts: 292 | Posted: 10:33 PM on April 19, 2005 | IP
got_dooie

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true, opinions are subjective. So is religion. Countless times, religion is used as a basis for arguments on these forums - do you consider those arguments valid?


Religions are not subjective,  but that is another argument for another time.  To refer to what I wrote: Opinions ARE subjective and most times DO NOT define or reveal what is true.  Notice the word MOST, I never claim that opinions at ALL TIMES do not reveal the true, but rather MOST.  So certain arguments based on TRUE OPINIONS that are accepted universality can be accepted as solid arguments.

To argue, syllogisms have to make sense.   Premises have to be stated and backed up by proof and then a conclusion.  On the other hand, assertions are not valid arguments for everyone can make an assertion at anytime.  

Well, the mother is the best person to make such a choice - she has to go through the pregnancy and potentially look after the child once it is born.


The above is not a valid argument, it is merely an assertion.  Take intro. to logics again if you need to refresh your memory on how to write an argument correctly


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I always live in the past, the present is not not, the future is not yet, therfore only the past.
 


Posts: 84 | Posted: 01:01 AM on April 20, 2005 | IP
K8

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Please post a thread about religion not being subjective - i really want to discuss that.

I'll get you to do it as i feel you may be more 'religiously-bound' than myself (but i'm just guessing here...).
 


Posts: 292 | Posted: 02:45 AM on April 21, 2005 | IP
Cush

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Quote from K8 at 02:45 AM on April 21, 2005 :
Please post a thread about religion not being subjective - i really want to discuss that.

I'll get you to do it as i feel you may be more 'religiously-bound' than myself (but i'm just guessing here...).




There is another forum category for that argument.


On the Original question..

A child is not defined by the opinion of the mother.

A child is merely a noun refering to a thing that is a younger version of it's parent.

A better way to rephrase your question would be, "Can someone tell me why the mother has the right to determine wheter a fetus lives or not?"
 


Posts: 13 | Posted: 12:19 PM on July 21, 2005 | IP
bluefin

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well a mother has certain rights as she has to suffer the most when it comes to things like pregnancy and abortions
so some fundamental rights remain with the woman which she is allowed to practice

 


Posts: 11 | Posted: 01:45 AM on November 13, 2005 | IP
Dermon

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You're missing something. Until the child is born, it is a fetus. Once it takes it's first breath, it has crossed over into personhood and is then a child/baby/infant/ whatever the pro-lifers like to call it while it's a fetus.


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Abortion is not murder by the LEGAL definition.
 


Posts: 2 | Posted: 3:19 PM on November 27, 2005 | IP
sp3wk

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Quote from Dermon at 09:19 AM on November 27, 2005 :
You're missing something. Until the child is born, it is a fetus. Once it takes it's first breath, it has crossed over into personhood and is then a child/baby/infant/ whatever the pro-lifers like to call it while it's a fetus.


Well if that is what you think then you had better take a look at what the Bible says Now this forum is "Child or not". Well when dose life begin? The bible says in Psalms 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Let us suppose that there is a Woman who was raped and delivered the baby and five years later while she is cooking diner for her and the child she loses control and stabs the child and kills it.  Is this murder?

Yes.

What about 5 months after birth?

Yes.

What about 5 weeks?

Yes.

Five Minutes?

Yes

What about 1/2 min after birth?

Yes

if you agree with the following statement: Genesis 9:5 "5And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man.." in other words Murder is forbidden

If you believe in the Lord God Almighty you should not have trouble deciding whether abortion is right or not.

and if you would like to know what abortion looks like here is a photo.


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Sheldon P. Wassenaar
 


Posts: 3 | Posted: 6:33 PM on January 6, 2006 | IP
Pallim

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So whether its 5 years, 5 months, 5 weeks, 5 minutes, or even a half of minute after birth its considered murder? Sure I'll agree with you there.

I think you forgot to tell your audience that you think a child is alive before it is born. Eye twitcher there, huh? ^__^

Psalms 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.


Now that quote is hilarious-- it doesn't prove your point whatsoever. Paraphrasing that quote, what it really says is: "I was created when my parents had sex." That doesn't tell you when life begins.

A pocketwatch isn't crafted if I throw the pieces together in a completely random order.

(Edited by Pallim 1/6/2006 at 8:28 PM).
 


Posts: 39 | Posted: 8:24 PM on January 6, 2006 | IP
Mel

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Hey Guys!  

I'm new to this forum.  I have this really good short DVD you guys should see.  It helps when talking about this issue.  If anyone wants it I can easily make copies.  Let me know and I'll send it to you, no charge!

I'll be posting later.  See ya!

:-)  Mel

Reuhlt19@aol.com
 


Posts: 1 | Posted: 09:22 AM on February 20, 2006 | IP
mpc755

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Quote from TruthAndLove at 4:59 PM on April 11, 2005 :
Can someone tell me why a child is a child if the mother says it is, and it is not a child if the mother says it is not?  In other words, she chooses and the rest of the world has to agree with her choice, because it is her choice.  Is this just crazy or am I missing something here?



Because some of us believe there is a difference between an 8-hour old fertilized egg and a new born baby.
 


Posts: 19 | Posted: 10:16 AM on February 20, 2006 | IP
EMyers

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You completely missed his point.  If it's just an egg, then what right has the mother to tell the rest of us that it is a child (paternity suits, for instance).  If it is a child, what right has she to tell the rest of us it's a group of cells (what if the father or some childless couple wanted to rear it?).  If it is legally just a group of cells created by a man and a woman then both cell donors would have equal rights to what becomes of it.  If it is a human being then neither parent should have any right to kill it off.  Under the current legal system we basically call it whatever the woman wishes it to be called.  It must be one or the other.  It can't be a coin flip.


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 12:01 PM on February 20, 2006 | IP
reasonn

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If it's just an egg, then what right has the mother to tell the rest of us that it is a child (paternity suits, for instance).

It's just an egg.

There are many pro-life advocates that have passed laws to make it possible for the assault or murder of a pregnant woman to be considered a double assault or a double homicide. They have passed such laws because they have a pro-life view the laws have been left largely unchallenged. The situation with paternity suits is similar I imagine, but I figure that pro-choice politicians are too afraid to fight this one, regardless, paternity suits should not occur prior to birth.

A very good point.

f it is a child, what right has she to tell the rest of us it's a group of cells

It's not a child, its and egg.

If it is legally just a group of cells created by a man and a woman then both cell donors would have equal rights to what becomes of it.  

The man gave his sperm to the woman freely. Unless the two sign a contract, the possessor is assumed to holds the rights.

A child (born) is of course different

Under the current legal system we basically call it whatever the woman wishes it to be called.

As far as the law is concerned, it's always an egg. Woman and people in general claim and wish a lot of things.



 


Posts: 10 | Posted: 11:31 PM on March 8, 2006 | IP
reasonn

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I take that last one back. You're right.

The law is all over the place. Lots of unchallenged laws being passed everywhere these days.


 


Posts: 10 | Posted: 11:39 PM on March 8, 2006 | IP
    
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