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unworthy servant

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The American Holocaust - Abortion








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WE MUST OBEY GOD RATHER THAN MEN - ACTS 5:29
 


Posts: 196 | Posted: 10:28 AM on May 7, 2005 | IP
Box of Fox

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So you think abortion is wrong. That's nice. Now go away. You aren't instigating an intellectual discussion, your inviting philosphers and intellectuals to bang their heads against a wall in disgust. Or laugh at you.

But that doesn't really matter to you. After all, when you go to Heaven when you die, I suppose you'll be the one laughing down at us as we burn in Hell.
 


Posts: 85 | Posted: 9:33 PM on May 11, 2005 | IP
unworthy servant

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Quote from Box of Fox at 9:33 PM on May 11, 2005 :
So you think abortion is wrong. That's nice. Now go away. You aren't instigating an intellectual discussion, your inviting philosphers and intellectuals to bang their heads against a wall in disgust. Or laugh at you.

But that doesn't really matter to you. After all, when you go to Heaven when you die, I suppose you'll be the one laughing down at us as we burn in Hell.


Oh it appears another "intellectual" has come to 'poison the well.'


http://users.rcn.com/rostmd/winace/pics/#ad_hominem
Certain criminally stupid elements of society like to pretend that a preemptive attack on the source of an assertion (or better yet, the entire group that leans that way) substitutes for having to listen, understand and form a cogent counter-argument. This is known as "poisoning the well." Only the truly mindless dullards will ever use it, but if and when they do, just point it out in catchy graphic form to the rest of the forum-goers.

Prov 26:  16 The lazy one is wiser in his own eyes than seven that return a wise answer.

Obviously only the nonChristians have a right to speak on any topic.




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WE MUST OBEY GOD RATHER THAN MEN - ACTS 5:29
 


Posts: 196 | Posted: 08:34 AM on May 12, 2005 | IP
Box of Fox

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I understand. I also apologize for my rude comment before, I was in a bad mood, and I shouldn't have been so tempermental.

However, I wonder why you bring up the subject of hate. I don't hate you. I don't do hate. But do you think that because of homosexuals, pluralists, athiests, abortionists, and feminists, and those that support them, are enemies of God? Do you feel prosecuted because of their existence?
 


Posts: 85 | Posted: 7:46 PM on May 12, 2005 | IP
unworthy servant

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Quote from Box of Fox at 7:46 PM on May 12, 2005 :

However, I wonder why you bring up the subject of hate. I don't hate you. I don't do hate. But do you think that because of homosexuals, pluralists, athiests, abortionists, and feminists, and those that support them, are enemies of God? Do you feel prosecuted because of their existence?


You know the little gingerbread man thought a fox was so "nice," also.  Contrary to popular belief I am smarter than the gingerbread man.

Luke 13: 31 The same day there came certain of the Pharisees, saying unto him, Get thee out, and depart hence: for Herod will kill thee. 32 And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected. 33 Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem. 34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not! 35 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.





(Edited by unworthy servant 5/13/2005 at 2:11 PM).


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WE MUST OBEY GOD RATHER THAN MEN - ACTS 5:29
 


Posts: 196 | Posted: 2:10 PM on May 13, 2005 | IP
Peter87

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But you don't belive the word of god, or did "he" actual read the bible to you "himself".
No you belive the word of man, claiming to be inspired by the god and thus claimed to be preaching the word of god 2000+ years ago. Maybe gods message has changed but no ones listening becuase they are too blinded by the old message.


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Why should we bow to the will of anyone? Especialy a man who our country but another voted for?
 


Posts: 301 | Posted: 8:19 PM on May 13, 2005 | IP
Box of Fox

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Quote from Peter87 at 8:19 PM on May 13, 2005 :
But you don't belive the word of god, or did "he" actual read the bible to you "himself".
No you belive the word of man, claiming to be inspired by the god and thus claimed to be preaching the word of god 2000+ years ago. Maybe gods message has changed but no ones listening becuase they are too blinded by the old message.


I agree. If God does exist, his message would not be that everyone who doesn't follow his word goes to hell.

After all, in church, and when I have gone to my friend's synagogue, they preach (well, actually, the Jewish religion does not emphasize preaching, they do a thing called "teaching and learning." Though I have pretty much concluded that you have absolutely no idea what that means.) that God is all-loving, all-understanding, and all-compassionate, that he shows mercy to those who do not follow his Word. They obviously aren't pertaining to the God you speak of.
 


Posts: 85 | Posted: 1:38 PM on May 14, 2005 | IP
unworthy servant

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I agree. If God does exist, his message would not be that everyone who doesn't follow his word goes to hell.


"If God does exists?"  Yeah, wisdom from a fool.

Psalms 14:1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good. 2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. 3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one. (filthy: Heb. stinking)


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WE MUST OBEY GOD RATHER THAN MEN - ACTS 5:29
 


Posts: 196 | Posted: 3:30 PM on May 14, 2005 | IP
Box of Fox

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Quote from unworthy servant at 3:30 PM on May 14, 2005 :
I agree. If God does exist, his message would not be that everyone who doesn't follow his word goes to hell.


"If God does exists?"  Yeah, wisdom from a fool.

Psalms 14:1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good. 2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. 3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one. (filthy: Heb. stinking)


So technically, you don't bother arguing with me because I'm an agnostic? Lol. That's cute. When you die and don't go to heaven, I'll be the one standing over your grave laughing.
 


Posts: 85 | Posted: 8:22 PM on May 14, 2005 | IP
unworthy servant

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Quote from Box of Fox at 8:22 PM on May 14, 2005 :
Quote from unworthy servant at 3:30 PM on May 14, 2005 :
I agree. If God does exist, his message would not be that everyone who doesn't follow his word goes to hell.


"If God does exists?"  Yeah, wisdom from a fool.

Psalms 14:1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good. 2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. 3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one. (filthy: Heb. stinking)


So technically, you don't bother arguing with me because I'm an agnostic? Lol. That's cute. When you die and don't go to heaven, I'll be the one standing over your grave laughing.


You can laugh now and I will laugh later, on the day of Judgment.

Psalms 58: 10 The righteous shall rejoice when he sees vengeance; he shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked. 11 And man will say, Truly, a fruit is to the righteous; truly, there is a God judging in the earth.


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WE MUST OBEY GOD RATHER THAN MEN - ACTS 5:29
 


Posts: 196 | Posted: 06:14 AM on May 15, 2005 | IP
Lord Iorek

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I'll be waiting for that Day... In the mean while I think I'll go work at the abortion clinic helping victims of rape and violence that you so judgementally catagorize. Have YOU ever been raped. No you haven't. And if you were ever faced with the decision of an abortion. I know exactly what you would choose and it would be the murder. You are a coward who hides behind the arcane and refuses to believe that they are all alone in a gigantic universe where no one cares about them and this fact is growing more and more everyday you sit at this "pagan" machine and spit your lies into cyberspace where they fester and enrage and in the end you will be all alone and whispering the same mantra over and over again in the corner of a padded room in the countryside saying "God hates everyone but me..."

So when the day of Judgement comes, and you ascend to heaven, I'll be drinkin Martinis with Lucifer himself. And No, your Christian dogma can burn in hell as well because it is all embellished stories that has a moral everyone has forgotten.

I am not quick to be complacent with religion, I still see the effects of Catholic rule from Medieval Europe and in Modern day Iran. Your kind will always inhabit the earth and eventually with your own selfish desires destroy the world god lovingly created.


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"At the age of six I wanted to be a cook. At seven I wanted to be Napoleon. And my ambition has been growing steadily ever since." - Salvador Dali

Guide the future by the past, long ago the mould was cast. - Rush
 


Posts: 121 | Posted: 9:37 PM on May 20, 2005 | IP
skins38

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Box of Fox on that question.  Heres how i believe it.  God is perfect and demands perfection, this is something that we can never attain.  A price must be paid for the wrong doings we commit. The only way that price is paid is by Jesus Christ and accepting him as our Lord.  God does not wish anyone to go to hell but he is pure and we are not.  i think i said that in a way that makes sense.


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2nd Amendment- First line of defense;Last resort to combat tyranny and oppression.
 


Posts: 97 | Posted: 5:41 PM on May 25, 2005 | IP
Box of Fox

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So if we don't accept Jesus Christ in our hearts, we are not accepted into heaven (or we just go to hell)?

What about Asia? Did they even have a chance at going to heaven? China is some 1.3 billion people. A small minority are Christian. Are the rest fated to hell? If you reason so, then the God you speak of is cruel.
 


Posts: 85 | Posted: 7:13 PM on May 25, 2005 | IP
Lord Iorek

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Faith alone is not what gets you into heaven, it is by practicing what Jesus taught not just believing in him. I personnaly think Jesus is a wise man but did not walk on water. I think the morals he talks about are what should drive this religion. So, if you are good person in general (not unworthy he is vindictive) you will go to heaven, hell is for the worst of us sinners and eventually you will be released from hell into Heaven, it says so in one of the gospels not chosen for the bible. I think it was in the book of Thomas.


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"At the age of six I wanted to be a cook. At seven I wanted to be Napoleon. And my ambition has been growing steadily ever since." - Salvador Dali

Guide the future by the past, long ago the mould was cast. - Rush
 


Posts: 121 | Posted: 9:59 PM on May 25, 2005 | IP
skins38

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box of fox

Romans 6:23  For the wages of sin is death but the free gift of God is eternal Life in CHrist Jesus our Lord.

Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

Romans 1:20 For since creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

Basically either your saved or your not. I have read stories about missonaries going into places that have never been touched by the outside world and when they presented the gospel to the tribe they we re at the tribes people told the missonaries that they new who he was talking about but they just hadnt  known his name.

God can work in many ways in peoples lifes and he has made it to where there is no excuse for any person on the earth not to be able to go to Heaven.  

God is not cruel in anyway.  He is very merciful.  If he had wanted to he could have simply eliminated us after adam and eve sinned.  He didnt have to send his only son to suffer and die for all of mankind.  God is in no way cruel because God is love.


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2nd Amendment- First line of defense;Last resort to combat tyranny and oppression.
 


Posts: 97 | Posted: 5:45 PM on May 28, 2005 | IP
skins38

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Lord Iorek

Faith alone is what gets you into heaven.

ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God

The drive of this religion is Jesus

The book of thomas can not be of God because in this statment by you

"hell is for the worst of us sinners and eventually you will be released from hell into Heaven, it says so in one of the gospels not chosen for the bible. I think it was in the book of Thomas."

this goes against many many versus in the Bible making it a false book.


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2nd Amendment- First line of defense;Last resort to combat tyranny and oppression.
 


Posts: 97 | Posted: 5:56 PM on May 28, 2005 | IP
Box of Fox

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Lol, skins you are almost as conceded as Unworthy.

"Those who have faith"? Your religion, when they can't get their converts, switches to scare tactics. So if I don't have faith in a man that lived some 2000 years ago, and follow his story, and mindlessly waste my time ordering to his whims, I am fated to go to some nasty place under the earth where I will burn and beg for mercy. Do you really believe in the devil? The devil exists because people need something to blame their own, futile issues on. Superstition is for the weak. Faith is for the people who want to simplify an increasingly complex world.

So I can throw you my evidence, my facts, my reasoning, and you'll just stand at the side saying "I have faith." Go die and go to "heaven" so we both win :-)...

(Edited by Box of Fox 5/28/2005 at 8:51 PM).
 


Posts: 85 | Posted: 8:48 PM on May 28, 2005 | IP
skins38

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how am i conceded?

i was quoting scriputre just to back on what i believe.  

look at it this way i believe this stuff with all my heart and u can do whatever horrible and unnatural thing u want to me and ill still believe it. so in saying that wouldnt u want to know if someone had planted a bomb in ur house or i knew something terrible was about to happen to u wouldnt u want to know?

waste my time? even if u dont believe in God or anything the priciples taught in the bible are hardly a waste of time.  

yes the devil is a very real being.

would it not be easier to grasp something u see instead of something u cant?  

tell me what happens when we die?


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2nd Amendment- First line of defense;Last resort to combat tyranny and oppression.
 


Posts: 97 | Posted: 11:39 PM on May 28, 2005 | IP
Peter87

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what happens when you die?

Nobody knows, there is no real evidence iether for anything after death but probably nothingness.


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Why should we bow to the will of anyone? Especialy a man who our country but another voted for?
 


Posts: 301 | Posted: 08:29 AM on May 29, 2005 | IP
Box of Fox

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The problem is that you don't question what you believe in, and you have the complete inablility to be skeptical. You just accept it. Have you no way of thinking, "Does God really exist? Can I prove his existence?" Instead you say "Regardless of what can be observed, I have faith in God." So you have faith in something that you aren't sure exists? Or are you sure that he exists, because you have faith? We call that circular logic. Basically, its means "Because I have faith, God must exist// and //Because God exists, others and I have faith." Your heart and faith are not connected-- the heart, like faith, can be deceived.

Furthermore, I trust what is in front of me, what is directly observable, because these things are things that directly influence my life. I trust that the wind is moving particles, because particles can be directly observed, with my own eyes (telescopes and microscopes). Even if God did exist, he seems to be making no effort to show himself (through the 5 senses or in the mind), and isn't delivering people from suffering, death, etc, than he was 2000 years before.

so in saying that wouldnt u want to know if someone had planted a bomb in ur house or i knew something terrible was about to happen to u wouldnt u want to know?

That doesn't make sense. Repeat it more simply.

yes the devil is a very real being.

How? Can you prove it? Give me some evidence? What does he look like? Where is he now?

As for what happens when we die, I do not know. We have no way of telling how, but making stuff up, or finding another way of justifying doing good deeds (AKA Heaven), is not rational. Its beautiful to think about, and I really hope heaven exists, but I'm not going to say it does just because I like it. I shouldn't need to justify doing good deeds to go to heaven-- I do good deeds simply because doing them is cool, and helping people is cool.
 


Posts: 85 | Posted: 12:12 PM on May 29, 2005 | IP
Lord Iorek

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Also, if faith alone gets you into paradise, does that mean you can be a total asshole but believe that god exists and recieve the riches of heaven?

Find a bible quote that says that...


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"At the age of six I wanted to be a cook. At seven I wanted to be Napoleon. And my ambition has been growing steadily ever since." - Salvador Dali

Guide the future by the past, long ago the mould was cast. - Rush
 


Posts: 121 | Posted: 6:20 PM on May 29, 2005 | IP
skins38

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box of fox

thats the thing i have observed God working.  i know Him to be real because of my experiences.  Now im not saying ive seen God or heard an audible voice type thing, i can feel his spirt living within me and i able to see the work that he does.

if u truly believe in something then u never doubt it or question it or u do not truly believe in it.

i know God is real. all i have to do is look around and see the complexity of this world.  

r u ur self a scientist or do u just take others word for it?

God at one time did show him self to man in the garden but man sinned and as a result seprated himself from God.

In the bible it says we are saved by faith and faith alone.  if God were to show Himself throught the 5 senses as u say then it would require no faith to believe.  

on the quote that confused u said something about scare tactics.  what i was trying to relate this to was i know something bad is going to happen like a bomb in ur house u would want to be told.  that is in the same way why people must know the punishment for not accepting Jesus as their savior becaue they will spend a eternity in hell.

i can give u no sientific evidence for the devil but if u want i can give u some versus on what he looks like and where he is.

no u shouldnt justify doing good deeds to get into heaven because u cant get into heaven doing good deeds

i was wondering im not upto date on evolution right now and are like the pitdown man and lucy and those other things that are suppose to be the connections still believed to be the connections?


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2nd Amendment- First line of defense;Last resort to combat tyranny and oppression.
 


Posts: 97 | Posted: 9:55 PM on May 30, 2005 | IP
skins38

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Lord Iorek

John 10:27-28: My sheep hear My voice, and I know them and they follow Me; and i give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand.

When that happens though u must question the authenticity of thier decision.  for if they were truly saved most likely they would not go around doing abunch of bad stuff but if they were truly saved then yes they still go to heaven.


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2nd Amendment- First line of defense;Last resort to combat tyranny and oppression.
 


Posts: 97 | Posted: 9:59 PM on May 30, 2005 | IP
Lord Iorek

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Okay, sure but who cares if their going to heaven when they don't believe in it.

And that's why scare tactics (yes they are, you convert people by showing the impact it has on your life rather than what will happen if you don't. You could tell me that a bomb was in my house but the likelyhood of it would be slim) don't work for religions unless they hold a knife to your back on sundays...

And yes Lucy is still considered to be a linking organism.

I've never heard of the pitdown man, was he the body found at Java? (or was he the guy found in the peet moss swamp preserved perfectly?)

I've also wondered where in the bible it says what the devil looks like, etc...

But I am appalled at your cynicism to very real things yet you shame us for not believing in Christ.


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"At the age of six I wanted to be a cook. At seven I wanted to be Napoleon. And my ambition has been growing steadily ever since." - Salvador Dali

Guide the future by the past, long ago the mould was cast. - Rush
 


Posts: 121 | Posted: 10:35 PM on May 30, 2005 | IP
skins38

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im not trying to shame any of u or force my beliefs on u im simply trying to tell u what i believe and how it works.

im not saying scare tactics are the best way because there not.  living what u preach is the best way like u said.  

the pitdown man is fake and was a fraud that was placed by Teilhard de Chardin S.J.

Lucy is a 40% complete skeleton she was dicovered by D.C. Johanson in the Afar area of Ethiopia.  

National Geographic article (Decemer 1976) Johanson claimed that Lucy walked up right,
"The andgle of the thight bone and the flattened surface at its knee joint end... proved she walked on two legs."

But the knee joint end of of the femur where crushed therefore he could only speculate this.  
Anatomist Charles Oxnard used a computer technique for analysis of skeletal relationships concluded that the australopicthecines had never walkd up right as the way that was implied.  She actually more walked like a chimpanzee whcih spends quite a lot of its time walking up right.  

And as for the Java Ape man
He was made up of i believe small piece of the top of the skull, fragement of the left thigh-bone and three molar teeth.  not to mention these where not found togher but in a area of about 70 feet.  They were also found over a period of one year.  The area that they were found in was a old river bed that was mixed with many bones of extinct animal bones.

how is it possible to come up with complete report and have these "facts" with so little information.

even the 24 european scientist who met to talk about the find differed in opion.  ten said they where from ape.  seven said it was from man. and then the other seven said they belongd to the missing link.  

Professor Virchow of Berlin said:  "There is no evidence at all that these bones were parts of the same creature."

Then even the man that discovered it Dr. Dubois changed his opion and said in his final conlusion that it was some sort of gibbon.  


things like this are why i do not believe in evolution.  Lucy is not a link between man and ape nor is the java man.  even when admited by the person that discovered them to simply be apes they still today are taught as being the "missing link"

If u dont believe that Jesus exsisted then u truly are a fool.  I can understand u believing he was not a God or a savior but he was a very real person.  There are many written accounts of Jesus besides the Bible.

Ezekiel 28: 13-15 Thus says the Lord GOD, "You had the seal of perfection, Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. 13 "You were in Eden, the garden of God; Every precious stone was your covering: The ruby, the topaz, and the diamond; The beryl, the onyx, and the jasper; The lapis lazuli, the turquoise, and the emerald; And the gold, the workmanship of your settings and sockets, Was in you. On the day that you were created They were prepared. 14 "You were the anointed cherub who covers, And I placed you there. You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked in the midst of the stones of fire. 15 "You were blameless in your ways From the day you were created, Until unrighteousness was found in you.

thats before he was evil now he looks like this

Revelation 12:3-4  And another sign appeared in heaven: and behold, a great red dragon having seven heads and ten horns and on his heads were seven diadems. and his tail swept away a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth,....


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2nd Amendment- First line of defense;Last resort to combat tyranny and oppression.
 


Posts: 97 | Posted: 2:42 PM on May 31, 2005 | IP
Box of Fox

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Skins, you can talk about your religion all you want, I don't care, for all you or I know, you just might be right.

But don't think for a second that you even have the right to make any generalizations about Lucy. I just visited the American Museum of Natural history two weeks ago, and observed Lucy myself, along with a variety of other anthropology students. Do you think Lucy didn't walk on two legs? The angle of the thigh bone shows amazing similarity with humans, as does the knee joint, and you didn't mention the fact that the femur on the other side of the body is still intact. That is what is used for "speculation." Furthermore, that edition was published in 1976, and according to the description under the Lucy skeleton, the position of the back bone, the bone connecting the thigh bones with the back, and the lack of primate features, such as a certain hole near the base of the neck, certainly provides enough "evidence" to explain why she walked upright.

I cannot explain the "Java Man," mostly because I do not know enough information to make any rational statements about him. Regardless, would you source where you got these "24 european scientists" and I will be happy to agree with you on the "java man" issue.

However, you are not going to be on my bright side if you say "things like this are why i do not believe in evolution.  Lucy is not a link between man and ape nor is the java man.  even when admited by the person that discovered them to simply be apes they still today are taught as being the "missing link."

The fact that you have drawn a conclusion in the first place is upsetting. Do you see no irony in this statement? You have drawn a conclusion from information and "evidence" that is not only insufficient but has been twisted to favor your point. Knowing what a few scientists (apparently from 1976) have said, and deciding that evidence for someone else point does not carry enough weight to persuade the reader of your point.

As for your comment on Jesus, I wouldn't be surprised he existed, but the "savior" part is pushing it a little too far. Ah, another question though, mostly because I'm so skeptical-- what other non-religious accounts talk about Jesus's existence (from that time period)?

P.S. Please try to capitalize the beginning of your setences, and use correct punc, because I find it dreadfully irritating to read people's posts when they make no effort in slowing down their passionate typing.
 


Posts: 85 | Posted: 4:20 PM on May 31, 2005 | IP
skins38

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I think lucy was like a chimpanzee which could walk on two legs.  As for the knee joint i beieve it was the knee cap or whatever part made it seem like it walked up right do u know where this was found?  It was found about two miles away 400 Ft LOWER then the rest of the bones.  Thats a big difference.

I got this information from a book. I was unable to actually find any official document stating this but i do know that it is  mentioned in several web sites and other books. If u would like i can search further.  

i have not drawn conclusions i have looked at the facts. Did u know what Darwin said about the eye?

"To suppose that the eye, with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection , seems, i freely confess, absurd in the higest degree possible."

How can you expect me to believe in something when basically its founder says that it cant be possible.

Theres also the cells that can not get any smaller that must have all parts to function.  Things like this dont happen by evolution and can not be explained by evolution either

Flavius Josephus: He was a jewish historian during the time Christ lived. Heres a quote from him.  

About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man.  For he was one who performed surprising deeds and was a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. He was the Messiah. And when, upon the accusation of the principal men among us, Pilate had condemned him to a cross, those who had  first come to love him did not cease.  He appeared to them spending a third day restored to life, for the prophets of God had foretold these things and a thousand other marvels about him.  And the tribe of the Christians, so called after him, has still to this day not disappeared.

                               - Jewish Antiquities, 18.3.3 §63
 


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Posts: 97 | Posted: 11:18 PM on May 31, 2005 | IP
Lord Iorek

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That's because Darmin was 150 years before now and reasearch didn't stop then either so quotes from a person still living in the age of possible spontaneous generation should be stricken from the record and please this is about Unworthy's insensitive Aryan mindset... So please stick to the damn topic.

Abortion may not be very ethical but no one has the right to take away the right to choose. take it away you bible hawking conservative Skins and you liberal athiest Fox. I gotta go play pacman!


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"At the age of six I wanted to be a cook. At seven I wanted to be Napoleon. And my ambition has been growing steadily ever since." - Salvador Dali

Guide the future by the past, long ago the mould was cast. - Rush
 


Posts: 121 | Posted: 11:46 PM on May 31, 2005 | IP
Box of Fox

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Dude, I said a non-religious source. Just because it is Jewish doesn't mean its non-religious. Lol. Confused, a bit? I used to Jewish myself.

Otherwise, don't you see? Only because you looked up a specific paragraph of Darwin's literature, you draw a conclusion that evolution isn't true because of the eye? That's it?? Because you don't believe in the evolution of the eye, that's enough to prove evolution wrong?...

As for the cells, a cell is quite a large object. Do you think the first living creature had a cell? No. It probably consisted purely of RNA and a membrane.
 


Posts: 85 | Posted: 2:09 PM on June 1, 2005 | IP
got_dooie

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Furthermore, I trust what is in front of me, what is directly observable, because these things are things that directly influence my life. I trust that the wind is moving particles, because particles can be directly observed, with my own eyes (telescopes and microscopes). Even if God did exist, he seems to be making no effort to show himself (through the 5 senses or in the mind), and isn't delivering people from suffering, death, etc, than he was 2000 years before.


Let us not forget that scientism holds a contradiction in itself.  The contradiction is that one cannot scientifically prove that the only acceptable proofs are scientific proofs. One cannot prove logically or empirically that only logical or empirical proofs are acceptable as proofs. One cannot prove it logically because its contradiction does not entail a contradiction, and one cannot prove it empirically because neither a proof nor the criterion of acceptability are empirical entities.  To demand God, the immaterial, to be subjected to empirical evidence, the material, is a self-contradictory demand.  

Further, the intellect IS immaterial because it can grasp the abstract and the universal.  The intellect can grasp the idea of book without such book being present.  This does not deny that not is first in the intellect that is not first through the senses, rather it is to deny the notion that there can be no immaterial things.  Example:  The senses can only perceive singular things with their presence, whereas the intellect can have ideas of things without their actual presence.  So when you say that there are no such thing as immaterial entities or anything immaterial for that matter, you deny what is self-evident--the immateriality of the intellect.

God need not try to show himself because He has no need to do so.  Even if he did, our finiteness would lead us to death in front of Him because of His majestic and splendor glory.


quoted from skins38: Basically either your saved or your not. I have read stories about missonaries going into places that have never been touched by the outside world and when they presented the gospel to the tribe they we re at the tribes people told the missonaries that they new who he was talking about but they just hadnt  known his name.

God can work in many ways in peoples lifes and he has made it to where there is no excuse for any person on the earth not to be able to go to Heaven.  

God is not cruel in anyway.  He is very merciful.  If he had wanted to he could have simply eliminated us after adam and eve sinned.  He didnt have to send his only son to suffer and die for all of mankind.  God is in no way cruel because God is love.

Faith alone is what gets you into heaven


It it true that God is love, and since He IS love, how is it that He cany deny anyone from salvation?  The stories of the missionaries you hear are only a FEW stories, what about the others?  Are people not saved if they have not the knowledge of the God we believe in?  And if God holds us accountable for spreading the message, would he not take into consideration our limitations to reach only certain areas because of economic situations?  The answer is of course not, we have a responsibility to spread the message, but the ones who genuinely lived a good life and did not know about God or His salvation would undoubtedly be judged fairly after death.  By this I mean that the God of love and mercy would still grant them salvation.

You speak of Sola fides (faith alone) as the requirement for eternal salvation.  You are WRONG.  Martin Luther spent his life trying to defend such belief by using the bible, yet it is the very bible that disproves this notion.  The bible points out that we must live out our fiath, through obedience (to the successors of Peter), through perseverance, and through love.  If you want scripture verses, then here they are:

Not faith alone:

James 1:22-25 "Be doers of the word and not hearers only, deluding yourselves."

Mt. 25:31-46 "...I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, naked and you clothed me, il and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me."

Mt. 7:21-23 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.  Many will say to me on that day, "Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name?  Did we not drive out demons in your name?  Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?'  Then I will declare to them solemnly, "I never knew you.  Depart from me, you evildoers."

Church Authority and Papal Infallability:

Mt. 28:18-20 "All power in heaven an don earth has been given to me.  Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all I have commanded you.  And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age."

Jn. 14:16-18 "...I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate to be with you ALWAYS."

If you want more scripture verses I can give them out as well, but be aware that Scripture is not the SOLE authority and does not claim itself to be SUFFICIENT for salvation.




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Posts: 84 | Posted: 3:36 PM on June 1, 2005 | IP
Lord Iorek

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Oh man, I just thought of a good question.

Skins, do you think Gandhi went to heaven?


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"At the age of six I wanted to be a cook. At seven I wanted to be Napoleon. And my ambition has been growing steadily ever since." - Salvador Dali

Guide the future by the past, long ago the mould was cast. - Rush
 


Posts: 121 | Posted: 4:33 PM on June 1, 2005 | IP
skins38

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Box of fox

It is a non religious source.  He's one of the greatest historian of that time.  Back then most people in the area that Jesus was in were religious in some way.  So it would be nearly impossible to find someone that was not religious.  

Fine maybe im wrong please explain how the eye evolved then.    If the eye is too complex to evolve then evolution couldnt be true could it?  Yes that would be enough.

I dont remeber what its called but it must have every single part to function.  Things like that dont evolve over time.




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Posts: 97 | Posted: 5:53 PM on June 1, 2005 | IP
skins38

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Lord Iorek

He was a buddist correct?

Basically if he didnt know Jesus then no he did not.


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Posts: 97 | Posted: 5:54 PM on June 1, 2005 | IP
Lord Iorek

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He was hindu.

I'm not suprised by this. Even though Gandhi was the modern day Jesus you still say he is not fit for heaven.


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"At the age of six I wanted to be a cook. At seven I wanted to be Napoleon. And my ambition has been growing steadily ever since." - Salvador Dali

Guide the future by the past, long ago the mould was cast. - Rush
 


Posts: 121 | Posted: 6:09 PM on June 1, 2005 | IP
skins38

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got_dooie

Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature have been clearly seen., being understood through what has been made so that they are without excuse.

Im not sure about the people deep in the jungles in such.  But i do know that the buddist and hindus and those types will not being going to heaven.

None of the versus you gave me suppport your argument and hears why.

James 1: 22-25 Jesus commands us to live out our faith yes but you can not find one scripture that says you must perform works to get to heaven.  

Mt. 25:31-46 This passage is simply saying that whatever you do to people you are doing as if you were doing unto Jesus.  No where in there does it say anything about having to perform works to get to heaven.

Mt. 7:21-23 And this ones great too because in this one its talking about untrue believers.  If you notice they did perform works but they still didnt get into heaven.

None of these versus support your argument that you must also perform works because works are not part of getting to heaven.

Romans 5:1 Therefore having been justified by faith we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

i never said knowing the Bible was the way of salvation.



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Posts: 97 | Posted: 6:14 PM on June 1, 2005 | IP
got_dooie

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James 1: 22-25 Jesus commands us to live out our faith yes but you can not find one scripture that says you must perform works to get to heaven.  


Neither is there anywhere in the bible does it say that "faith is sufficient for salvation."

Mt. 25:31-46 This passage is simply saying that whatever you do to people you are doing as if you were doing unto Jesus.  No where in there does it say anything about having to perform works to get to heaven.


And in case you forgotten, Jesus is TRUE GOD and TRUE MAN.  Therefore, it entails that whatever you do to Jesus you do to God and it also entails that you are accepting salvation through the works you do.

And this ones great too because in this one its talking about untrue believers.  If you notice they did perform works but they still didnt get into heaven.


Don't interpret things the way you want to.  The passage clearly says that the people DID perform miracles IN CHRIST'S name; therfore having faith in Christ, yet what is missing is the GENUINE love for one's neighbor and this is what Jesus is condemning.  

Want another passage?

Rom. 2:5-11 "...the just judgment of God, who will repay everyone according to his works."

Paul is clear on this.  We will be judged by our commitment to our faith.  Which is not the same thing as saying that our salvation comes through our won deeds or merits, for--as the Church has always taught--without Jesus there would be no possibility of redemption.

Further, unless you could show me ANYWHERE in the bible that says that it, in itself, is sufficient for knowledge of revelation and therefore salvation.  You CANNOT take sola fides as a valid argument from passages you cut out from the bible and interpret the way that you want (the usual protestant approach).


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Posts: 84 | Posted: 6:56 PM on June 1, 2005 | IP
skins38

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No not in those exact words.

Then please tell me what does Romans 5:1 really say then? Therefore having been justified by faith we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

jus·ti·fied  To demonstrate or prove to be just, right, or valid: justified each budgetary expense as necessary; anger that is justified by the circumstances.

To declare free of blame; absolve.

To free (a human) of the guilt and penalty attached to grievous sin. Used of God.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of youselves, it is the gift of God.

I think that one says it pretty well to dont you?  

Yes i know Jesus is God as well as the Spirt. and no thats not what it entails.  your the one thats interpretting things the way you want them to be.  

I can see that no matter what i do or what i say its always going to be im wrong and ur right.  Let me ask you then what are u?


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Posts: 97 | Posted: 7:54 PM on June 1, 2005 | IP
got_dooie

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No not in those exact words.

Then please tell me what does Romans 5:1 really say then? Therefore having been justified by faith we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.


Well then how is it that we can find other verses in the bible which essentiates to actions AND faith for salvation.  Why is it that we also find MANY MANY passages in which papal authority and the Roman Catholic Church as the intepreter of Divine Revelation?  The primary error here, protestantism has its roots in the fact that protestant churches are built on the wrong foundation, therefore no matter how much work they do to their church, it will not help if the foundation is faulty. Which Church is built on 'rock' (Mt 16:18), and which Church is guided by the Holy Spirit (Jn 14:16-17)?  If you deny other passages and only look to certain ones that acknowledge that faith is needed for salvation then you are wrong.  I am NOT denying that faith is needed for salvation (and neither are the bible verses denying them, rather they are affirming them.)  Yet the verses you give DO NOT say that eternal life is gain ONLY by faith.

Because you deny salvation to others by ways of faith you speak of an omnipotent and omniscient God who is willing to create yet unwilling to  reveal.  In that sense you not only condescend but condemn all other religions, this is absurd.  Having faith and sinning is NOT going to justify salvation.  

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of youselves, it is the gift of God.

I think that one says it pretty well to dont you?


If one reads the whole passage one finds that the title is "Made Alive In Christ."  Guess what?  This means that through Christ we are saved, and we all can acknowledge that.  But having faith in Christ means that we MUST follow Him for He is God and He told us (in the Gospels) what to do to save ourselves...did he not?  Further, these verses are all good, but the foundation upon which the interpretation of them is built, is faulty. The fault lies in the fact that there are two very different kinds of salvation, not one. This is stated very clearly in Jn 5:24 by the word 'AND' which makes that verse conditional on two fronts, not one. We have to 'Hear' His word, AND we have to 'Believe' in Him.



(Edited by got_dooie 6/1/2005 at 9:46 PM).


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Posts: 84 | Posted: 9:38 PM on June 1, 2005 | IP
got_dooie

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This is a bit off topic and should go under religion, but since everyone reads it here, I am going to post what I posted as a reply in the religions section.

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All they need is to accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and savior and no matter what they do after, they are assured they will go straight to heaven. Jesus Christ paid the price for all sins, past, present, and future. Jesus Christ took the test for us all and gave each of us a grade of 100%. Now doesn't that sound good? Just think, you can do anything you want for the rest of your life and your irrevocable ticket to heaven was paid for with the blood of Christ almost 2000 years ago. What a gift! What a great blessing! What nonsense!!!

The primary error here, has its roots in the fact that protestant churches are built on the wrong foundation, therefore no matter how much work they do to their church, it will not help if the foundation is faulty. Which Church is built on 'rock' (Mt 16:18), and which Church is guided by the Holy Spirit (Jn 14:16-17)?

Fundamentalists look to Jn 5:24, "...he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has life everlasting, and does not come to judgment, but has passed from death to life." They use Gal 2:20, "And the life that I now live in the flesh, I live in the faith of the Son of GOD who loved me and gave Himself up for me." There are other verses which they use as well, such as Rom 4:4-8, and Eph 2:8-10.

These verses are all good, but the foundation upon which the interpretation of them is built, is faulty. The fault lies in the fact that there are two very different kinds of salvation, not one. This is stated very clearly in Jn 5:24 by the word 'AND' which makes that verse conditional on two fronts, not one. We have to 'Hear' His word, AND we have to 'Believe' in Him.

The error is in NOT 'hearing' the word, which means 'doing' the will of GOD. Fundamentalists accept the second part and ignore the first. The Bible is filled with verses about 'doing' the will of GOD. Those other verses I quoted are from the first kind, or 'Objective Salvation. Jesus Christ did in fact redeem all men by his sacrifice on the cross. He paid for the sins of all mankind, past, present, and future with His blood. He did His part, but He did not buy each of us a guaranteed foolproof, irrevocable 'ticket' to Heaven as some churches teach. He redeemed us and opened the gates of Heaven and gave us free will to decide for ourselves where we will spend eternity. He fulfilled 'Objective Salvation'. Now we all have to do our part which is called 'Subjective Salvation'. We must DO the will of GOD, and that is called 'Works'. This is spelled out so clearly in Scripture.

Let us start with Phil 2:12, "...Work out your salvation with fear and trembling." How can anyone respond to that one except subjectively? Did Jesus Christ really work it out for you? How about Rom 11:22, "See, then, the goodness and the severity of GOD: His severity toward those who have fallen, but the goodness of GOD toward you if you abide in His goodness, otherwise you also will be cut off." That says keep GOD's commandments or you will not make it to Heaven, and will be cut off. Then see 1Cor 9:27, "I chastise my body and bring it into subjection, lest perhaps after preaching to others I myself should be rejected." Paul himself, teaching that even he, with all of his faith, could still be rejected.

Look at Lk 6:46, "But why do you call Me Lord, Lord, and do not do the things that I say? Doing the things which Jesus Christ says to do is 'works'.

Heb 11:39-40, "And all these, though they had been approved by the testimony of faith, did not receive what was promised, for GOD had something better in view for us; so that they should not be perfected without us."

Rev 2:26, "And to him who overcomes, and who keeps my works unto the end, I will give authority over the nations."

Open your Bible to Acts 5:29-32... But Peter and the Apostles answered and said, "We must obey GOD rather than men...(32) and we are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom GOD has given to all who obey him." Those verses are unmistakable that we have to do our part by obeying the commandments of GOD.

Then there is the dreaded (by Protestants) Jam 2:14-26 which starts with (14) "What will it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith, but does not have Works? Can the faith save him?...(17) So faith too, unless it has Works, is dead in itself...(20) Faith without Works is useless...(21) Was not Abraham our father justified by Works when he offered up Isaac his son upon the altar? (22) Do you not see that Faith worked along with his Works, and by the Works the faith was made perfect?...(24) You see that by Works a man is justified, and not by faith only....(26) For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so, Faith also without Works is Dead." 'Subjective Salvation' in action, is shown for that whole section written by St. James. I could go on and on with verses like this, and could ask questions such as, why is there a need for the ten commandments, since we are 'automatically saved'? I think you get the message from what I have shown.

Read Matt 25:31:46. It is all about doing good works in this life. Then there is Rev 14:13, "And I heard a voice from Heaven saying, 'Write: blessed are the dead who die in the Lord henceforth. Yes, says the Spirit, let them rest from their labors, for their works follow them.'" Is that clear enough that works are needed in addition to faith? Still not convinced? Then how about another crystal clear verse? Rev 22:12, "Behold, I come quickly! And My reward is with Me, to render to each one according to his works."



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I always live in the past, the present is not not, the future is not yet, therfore only the past.
 


Posts: 84 | Posted: 11:57 PM on June 1, 2005 | IP
skins38

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Im not going to say i agree with you or anything  cause i still think your wrong but  i admit defeat for this one.  You can argue well.  

I take it ur catholic though?




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Posts: 97 | Posted: 3:24 PM on June 2, 2005 | IP
got_dooie

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It is good that you are holding on to your belief tightly, but right or wrong is not subjective on this matter, rather it is what is truly revealed Divinely.  I only wrote what has already be revealed to Mother Church (in my own words) and therefore take no credit for anything written here.  Thank you for a good discussion and yes, I am a Catholic Seminarian.

(Edited by got_dooie 6/2/2005 at 6:32 PM).


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Posts: 84 | Posted: 6:25 PM on June 2, 2005 | IP
Raelian1

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Quote from unworthy servant at 12:28 PM on May 7, 2005 :
The American Holocaust - Abortion








I've noticed you compare abortions to the nazi holocaust and other crimes against humanity. So did Pope (Dope) John Paul II. That is offensive to women and Jewish people (among other victims).
A foolish comparison since that abortion is only preventing an unwanted pregnancy without harm to anyone. For the first four to five months, that fetus isn't alive or conscious therefore not living.


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Posts: 68 | Posted: 11:26 PM on June 21, 2005 | IP
got_dooie

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I've noticed you compare abortions to the nazi holocaust and other crimes against humanity. So did Pope (Dope) John Paul II. That is offensive to women and Jewish people (among other victims).
A foolish comparison since that abortion is only preventing an unwanted pregnancy without harm to anyone. For the first four to five months, that fetus isn't alive or conscious therefore not living.


Sorry to interfere between your conversation here, but two things I'd like to say.  Do you understand fully what Pope John Paull II was talking about in his new book or did you just hear what others relate to you?  Because let me reassure you that there is a philosophical aspect to what he wrote.  Second, can you give proof that in the first 4 to 5 months, the fetus is not a child?  (The second question is asked because you stated pretty DEFINITELY that the fetus is not a child it that certain time frame)


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Posts: 84 | Posted: 9:31 PM on June 22, 2005 | IP
Smiegal

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In Nazi Germany, it all started with abortion. Sexual freedom was the problem, and look where it led.

The opposite is true. Totalitarian leaders Hitler and Stalin believed that the individual should be sacrificed to the state. Both instituted harsh abortion laws, outlawed other women's rights, and forced women to stay home, bear children, and be subservient to their husbands. Russian women were criticized for treating childbearing "as if it were a personal matter." Hitler said, "Use of contraceptives means a violation of nature and a degradation of womanhood, motherhood and love...."

I believe here are some ofe the statistics you might want, they are 2 years old though, the newest I could Find:
The number of abortions by any method are not the issue, but statistics put it in perspective. The federal Centers for Disease Control (CDC) report:

90% of abortions are done in the first trimester
Nearly 10% occur second trimester (from 12-24 weeks)
5.3% after 16 weeks
1.3% after 20 weeks
NYS Health Department figures from 1993 (the most recent) show only .02% of abortions after 24 weeks.
Also a page to hyperlink to for more info on.
http://www.wcla.org/articles/index.html

Sorry right now I cannot seem to find the right URL to get the infor on gestation of development of growth to substansuate any claim. So to keep from argueing or simply just stating what might seems to be my point of view, I will leave it at that!

Good day to all you very intellagent people out there!

Mr D
 


Posts: 11 | Posted: 10:48 PM on June 24, 2005 | IP
got_dooie

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The opposite is true. Totalitarian leaders Hitler and Stalin believed that the individual should be sacrificed to the state. Both instituted harsh abortion laws, outlawed other women's rights, and forced women to stay home, bear children, and be subservient to their husbands. Russian women were criticized for treating childbearing "as if it were a personal matter." Hitler said, "Use of contraceptives means a violation of nature and a degradation of womanhood, motherhood and love...."


I'm sorry but could you clarify this point?  I'm a bit slow to see what you are getting at by stating this.


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Posts: 84 | Posted: 10:59 PM on June 24, 2005 | IP
Smiegal

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Quote from got_dooie at 10:59 PM on June 24, 2005 :
The opposite is true. Totalitarian leaders Hitler and Stalin believed that the individual should be sacrificed to the state. Both instituted harsh abortion laws, outlawed other women's rights, and forced women to stay home, bear children, and be subservient to their husbands. Russian women were criticized for treating childbearing "as if it were a personal matter." Hitler said, "Use of contraceptives means a violation of nature and a degradation of womanhood, motherhood and love...."


I'm sorry but could you clarify this point?  I'm a bit slow to see what you are getting at by stating this.




And you think Your slow? I'll try; here it goes,
In Nazi Germany, it all started with abortion. Sexual freedom was the problem, and look where it led. It was the ultamate of the leftist on one end of the field of one extriem.

"Hitler used racial grounds to exterminate Jews and other "undesirables."


Completly the opposite of what whe have today the Pro choice far Left?

They believed to keep one at home and isolate one and ones race, to create the perfect child flawless.

Well, what do they do today,
They do test.
Quote
"We oppose amniocentesis and other medical techniques which are used to diagnose birth defects. These are "search and destroy" missions that can lead to abortion. Even imperfect human being have the right to live."
Cildrens Med center in Dallas, 90% of all abnormalities can be diagnosed and reparied either inside or outside the womb, 5.3/4% of most other problems can be solved with medications.
(Like OPCA,Parkensons,Fredrick,MS,Atkinsons, Scroliosis,Hodgkins & and things as such)these you ultamatly die from at some point, I know I have OPCA, Heratary; Maybe if they could have had abortion's legal in 1964, I wouldn't be having this convesation now. Believe me my mom tried.

This allowed for them to easily get into the motief of aborting thier unwantied undeisierable or elderly , cripled and disable, not to metion the people in the Sychyatric wards(hope I didn't butcher it to bad). They knew in general if they could get there mindset low enough or thinking that they in general that they where the ultamate race then all elase would be a breeze!
The Chinese people call it brain washing or maybe mostly used by the Vietnamies.  

This is the flip side of the coin;
the agrument, they say it cost too much or the child is too far gone, or it isn't a child but a fetus. Quote.
"The tests permit parents who know they are at risk of bearing a defective baby to conceive, assured that if the test results are positive, they can abort and try again for a healthy baby. Before this technique was available, at-risk parents often aborted all pregnancies. It is heartless to deny parents access to medical technology that permits them to avoid giving birth to an incurable ill or severely retarded infant."

I hope this answers your question if not I will try and be a little more clear next time.

I am like other I am a little dence!

Mr D


(Edited by Smiegal 6/26/2005 at 5:22 PM).
 


Posts: 11 | Posted: 6:07 PM on June 25, 2005 | IP
got_dooie

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I see the point now.  Thanks


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I always live in the past, the present is not not, the future is not yet, therfore only the past.
 


Posts: 84 | Posted: 10:22 AM on June 26, 2005 | IP
Smiegal

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Thank You! glad I was able to help, some time I am more confusing than defining.
Often, going into as others say even more detail. Better stop here I go again Ramlin>
Mr D
 


Posts: 11 | Posted: 6:07 PM on June 26, 2005 | IP
    
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