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fallingupwards84

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you shall see "upwardism" in action once i am elected president under the "Labor Party" ticket


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 10:32 PM on January 5, 2003 | IP
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When will that be? THirty years?


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Don't tell me I'm conservative...I know that!
 


Posts: 351 | Posted: 10:34 PM on January 5, 2003 | IP
Bograt

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As long as you keep some capitialism and some God, then you get my vote. (maybe) Just as long as you are rich and white!! LOL


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Damn you Murphy!
 


Posts: 134 | Posted: 11:25 AM on January 6, 2003 | IP
fallingupwards84

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well i probably wont be rich, but i am white. and if you're lucky, i would keep limited capitalism but not enough to disrupt the distribution of wealth. and i am a strong christian, so i most certainly would not  ban any religious stuff in our country, but i would not bring back school prayer either


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 1:19 PM on January 6, 2003 | IP
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You can't ban religious "stuff" anyway.

Capitalism is the most productive economic system, fact. Socialism is great for the first few years, then it all turns bad and the economy is dead. Look right at Germany.

(Don't come at me with Japan! They did bad things with the banking system that caused a lot of bank failures and such. We're in a tough time all over the world anyway...almost everyone is having problems, but Germany's can be blamed on socialism. The government kept getting involved, and now they can't, and know things are dead.



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Don't tell me I'm conservative...I know that!
 


Posts: 351 | Posted: 1:29 PM on January 6, 2003 | IP
fallingupwards84

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(Don't come at me with Germany!)

oh i get it!! when a capitalist country does very poorly, then it is not capitalism's fault. but when a socialist country does poorly, then it is socialism's fault.

if socialism is sooo EVIL, then why do we see so much success with canada, great britian, and sweden?


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 6:29 PM on January 6, 2003 | IP
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Japan's poor management of its banking system wasn't a result of capitalism.

Germany's government kept involving itself with economic matters, a key thing in socialism, to the point that the economy required the government intervention to keep moving. Then Germany's government couldn't step in and make things better because of tough economic times, which has caused serious damage to the German economy.

They should put Margaret THatcher back in charge over in Great Britain...

Sweden is not doing fine.

"Sweden's long-successful economic formula of a capitalist system interlarded with substantial welfare elements has recently been undermined by high unemployment, rising maintenance costs, and a declining position in world markets."--CIA Factbook

Great Britain will fall in the future... they didn't implement socialist programs until the 80s and 90s. Actually, around 16% of the country lives below the poverty line. The number is 13% in the US. Maybe those social welfare programs are motivating people not to do their part.

Canada is losing professionals to the US and it is one of the two most major concerns in the country. The lure? Higher pay, lower taxes, better infrastructure.


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Don't tell me I'm conservative...I know that!
 


Posts: 351 | Posted: 7:17 PM on January 6, 2003 | IP
fallingupwards84

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margarat thatcher is the daughter of satan


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 10:25 PM on January 6, 2003 | IP
Veria

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Ok listen you guys .... the fact is that socialism is actualy slower developing system then the capitalist.... (look at the budget of how much money Russia had to spend on weponary and how the growth was slower to the people becouse the people gave away more then they got) The longer the socialism exists and the leader is God.. the more money the government will have making better lifes for all people.... so what i think is that we should have the socialism to be the main base for our system... and progresivly put some capitalism in... and I belive that the actual government soiuld be a parlament that is ran by god's laws and the members would be only to vote exact to the way that thier population sector voted.... none of this vote as you wish if you are in congress crap... so no president but rather God.... monotheistic only


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Mother land will rise again.... mark my words... mark them
 


Posts: 32 | Posted: 02:32 AM on January 7, 2003 | IP
fallingupwards84

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i agree with the socialism part, but a theocratic government is very dangerous


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 10:33 AM on January 7, 2003 | IP
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The daughter of Satan? Ugh.

Socialism doesn't work in the long run. Germany, Sweden... others will fall a little later and you will see.

Base a country on religion? Not practical. You can have people that may all be CHristian, but does that make their children Christian? Wouldn't work well... WOuld you deport those who don't believe in God or people who try and changer the system?

People elect their representitives based on how they feel on the issues. If people don't like the someone votes they don't have to elect the person again.

Capitalism has been proven to be the most productive system. Socialist countries have been around for awhile and they have not outrun capitalism. Great Britain has more people living in poverty and Canada is losing professionals to the US because of their system.

Some people will always want property and more of it, no matter what system you use. Bad people will always exist. Socialism would probably only work well in a utopian society. This is not one and will never probably be one, and even then socialism could fail like it failed Germany or Sweden.


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Don't tell me I'm conservative...I know that!
 


Posts: 351 | Posted: 4:54 PM on January 7, 2003 | IP
fallingupwards84

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you claim that all these countries have failed, but i dont understand your reasoning behind it. you define "failed" as having a less GDP, but i define "failed" as an unequal distribution of wealth


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 11:45 PM on January 7, 2003 | IP
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Failed? No. I said their economies are dying.


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Don't tell me I'm conservative...I know that!
 


Posts: 351 | Posted: 07:39 AM on January 8, 2003 | IP
fallingupwards84

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either way, i think that it is more important to have a more equal distribution of wealth then it is to have a high GDP


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 2:43 PM on January 8, 2003 | IP
tsmith2771

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How does a country fail by having a rich and a poor population?


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"I have no interest in making blacks equal to whites, they are of a lesser quality and this I am sure of." -Abraham Lincoln
"You don't win a war by dying for your country, you win a war by making the other person die for theirs." -General George Patton
 


Posts: 372 | Posted: 5:01 PM on January 8, 2003 | IP
fallingupwards84

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i dont think a successful country has a large poor population


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 5:27 PM on January 8, 2003 | IP
Veria

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Now Broker,
You clamed that capitalist countries succeeded and socialist failed. However, true capitalism just like true communism; has never been tried. A true capitalist nation would not have any socialistic programs. Thus the United States.... not true capitalism. True capitalism is complete free market. Show me one nation that had no socialistic programs (welfare is one) and had complete free market.



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Mother land will rise again.... mark my words... mark them
 


Posts: 32 | Posted: 08:21 AM on January 10, 2003 | IP
Veria

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Again Broker,
How are the socialistic countries falling apart? All they achieve is an equal distribution of wealth under one government. But if you guy want to know communism is even more equal. You see, under communism you have no leader (at least in flesh) and you have people having a complete share. Both of communism and socialism focuses of developing social factors in the population such as art and music. Other factor in those nations is better education thus leading away from greed. You see average American is interested in money, noting else just money. Average person under socialism or communism is interested in the welfare of the system and the welfare of others, thus leading away from greed. The only reason that it hasnít worked if because it is slow developing, those system need few generations to start truly working.



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Mother land will rise again.... mark my words... mark them
 


Posts: 32 | Posted: 08:31 AM on January 10, 2003 | IP
Veria

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Now for the theocratic communism,
Under this particular government. The people would become Christians no matter what. We do not have a choice in what we become; we do as our parents have done. This is the truth. No matter how much you want to ting that we do things out of choice the fact is we do things from the examples that our parents have set for us. This renders that theoretical socialism (Theocratic communism same thing) is non dangerous and will succeed to keep it's population Christian.



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Mother land will rise again.... mark my words... mark them
 


Posts: 32 | Posted: 08:37 AM on January 10, 2003 | IP
Veria

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One last thing,
The wealth of a nation for me is a rich cultural system with no classes and equal distribution of wealth. For the wealth distributed will grow with the nation growth.



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Mother land will rise again.... mark my words... mark them
 


Posts: 32 | Posted: 08:39 AM on January 10, 2003 | IP
fallingupwards84

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i agreed with every post except the third one. sorry man, i just cant see the benefits of a theocracy


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 09:39 AM on January 10, 2003 | IP
Bograt

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Falling, what about a government at least showing the possibility of a God, not "you will belive in Jesus or die" but more "there might be a God, belive what you will" does that sound a little better?


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Damn you Murphy!
 


Posts: 134 | Posted: 10:34 AM on January 10, 2003 | IP
fallingupwards84

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of course it sounds better!! but i do not think that we should force Christianity on people. anything wrong with that "evil" and "liberal" idea? does it make me any less "Christian" if i dont want to force my religion on someone else?


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 2:28 PM on January 10, 2003 | IP
Bograt

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No, it does not. Notice that all I want is the government to allow the POSSIBILITY of A God, not just yours or mine.


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Damn you Murphy!
 


Posts: 134 | Posted: 2:43 PM on January 10, 2003 | IP
dsadevil

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If the govt. didn't say a word on the God/no God debate, it would still allow for the possibilty of God. God doesn't exist or not exist on the whim of govt. policy. He doesn't need our help. There is absolutely no reason for the govt. to even venture an opinion on this. All it can do is be divisive.


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 3:05 PM on January 10, 2003 | IP
fallingupwards84

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the government cannot decide whether God exists or not. they have no control over it at all. if God truely exists, the government cant do anything to stop Him from existing. but that does not mean there should be a state religion either


-------
i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 12:11 AM on January 11, 2003 | IP
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Quote from Veria at 09:31 AM on January 10, 2003 :
Again Broker,
How are the socialistic countries falling apart? All they achieve is an equal distribution of wealth under one government. But if you guy want to know communism is even more equal. You see, under communism you have no leader (at least in flesh) and you have people having a complete share. Both of communism and socialism focuses of developing social factors in the population such as art and music. Other factor in those nations is better education thus leading away from greed. You see average American is interested in money, noting else just money. Average person under socialism or communism is interested in the welfare of the system and the welfare of others, thus leading away from greed. The only reason that it hasnít worked if because it is slow developing, those system need few generations to start truly working.



There will always be greedy people. Socialism would work in a utopian society, but this is not one. You can't just eliminate greed because you tell them everyone is going to be equal from now on. People will always want more, especially if they lived under capitalism. I really don't want to live where everyone is equal. What's the point of doing something when it won't change things for you? What's the challenge?


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Don't tell me I'm conservative...I know that!
 


Posts: 351 | Posted: 10:34 AM on January 11, 2003 | IP
dsadevil

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I agree. A true communist society would be boring as hell. No incentive. But there is a school of socialism that describes itself as "From each according to his abilities, to each according his DEEDS." That school of thought does hold some appeal to me. My particular brand of socialism I describe as "A floor with no ceiling." We give everyone a baseline, but after that the skies the limit.


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 12:14 PM on January 11, 2003 | IP
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That would be a lot better than everything being the same and perfectly equal.


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Don't tell me I'm conservative...I know that!
 


Posts: 351 | Posted: 12:27 PM on January 11, 2003 | IP
Bograt

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Sounds quite a lot like "upwardism" to me.


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Damn you Murphy!
 


Posts: 134 | Posted: 12:13 PM on January 12, 2003 | IP
Veria

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If everyone has everything the same then the point of working and living is not for money but for developing other things like family or lets see arts ... or maybe even working harder to make it so you as well as your naighbor would both get more ... that would modivate people to modivate eachother


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Mother land will rise again.... mark my words... mark them
 


Posts: 32 | Posted: 02:57 AM on January 14, 2003 | IP
dsadevil

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you'd think so wouldn't you? but yet, it doesn't. I don't know why. But it doesn't, and that's the way it is.


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 4:39 PM on January 14, 2003 | IP
kelvin90703

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Quote from fallingupwards84 at 10:32 PM on January 5, 2003 :
you shall see "upwardism" in action once i am elected president under the "Labor Party" ticket



HAAA!  Have you really every done any hard labor?  I started working carrying sacks of cement and 2X4s when I was 12.  I worked by way through school working on hot roofs durring the summer.  It never suprises me how educated idealist think they understand labor.  When I say that I mean "how to labor".

The Union is not going to trust some college boy.  Take a look at your hands?  Do you have any rough callouses, or soft skin.  Do you pay union dues?

Sorry for singling you out, but you always make an easy target for you misguided idealism.  I just wish your energy in idealism was redirected.

You should think about going to business school, getting rich, building a foward looking coporation, and paying a decent wage to your employees.
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 02:39 AM on January 20, 2003 | IP
fallingupwards84

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just because i am not in a labor union does not mean that i should not sympathize with them. they go through a lot of garbage and they deserve to have more rights.


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 03:03 AM on January 20, 2003 | IP
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Aren't labor unions a lot less welcome in socialist countries?


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Don't tell me I'm conservative...I know that!
 


Posts: 351 | Posted: 11:59 AM on January 20, 2003 | IP
fallingupwards84

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arent labor unions banned in a PURE capitalist system?


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 1:02 PM on January 20, 2003 | IP
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Who wants a pure capitalist system? I like a mix of things, leaning toward capitalism.


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Don't tell me I'm conservative...I know that!
 


Posts: 351 | Posted: 1:22 PM on January 20, 2003 | IP
kelvin90703

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Quote from fallingupwards84 at 03:03 AM on January 20, 2003 :
just because i am not in a labor union does not mean that i should not sympathize with them. they go through a lot of garbage and they deserve to have more rights.


Unions can be a double edged sword.  Big well entrenced unions produce comfy workers with no incentive to work harder or produce a better product (auto workers).  Sometimes they are a last ditch to fight for justice (farm workers).  Construction unions are a close balance, not quite.  

Socialism is not as rosy as you think.  The European socialist countries support themselves with high taxes.  Think of how much this country hates the IRS.  Do you feel comfortable with the IRS taking even more?  If the IRS did try to take more, you can bet there would be lot of pissed off people with guns in the street forming militias.  Sound familiar, sound like 1776?
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 12:59 PM on January 21, 2003 | IP
kelvin90703

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Fallingupwards:

If you can find a way to get rich and pay your employees a decent wage, you will change the world.

If you can develop a system to run a corporation with justice and equality, and still make a profit.  CEOs will follow and you will change the world.

Find a way to build a factory that is profitable and enviornmentlly friendly, you will change the world.

Sound like a lot?  Sounds impossible?  Well there are very few talented people that can pull some of these things off, that is why they are worth millions.  Do all those and you will change to world for the better and be worth billions!
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 1:09 PM on January 21, 2003 | IP
fallingupwards84

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first of all, money is not important to me. i dont even want to be a billionare. no seriously, i dont. or a millionare for that matter.

secondly, i am in favor of raising taxes so when u tell me that european socialist countries support themselves with high taxes, that is not something that i consider bad.


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 4:00 PM on January 21, 2003 | IP
kelvin90703

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Quote from fallingupwards84 at 4:00 PM on January 21, 2003 :
secondly, i am in favor of raising taxes so when u tell me that european socialist countries support themselves with high taxes, that is not something that i consider bad.


Then that means you trust that government will not buy $1000 toilet seats.  You trust that Congress will not take vacations on tax payers money.  You trust that government will do what is in the best interest of tax payers.  You belive that more money will produce more efficient government.  What you get is big 500 lb gorilla called government who does what ever it wants to do.

What the Canadian unions are find out is that government will do what everything to maintain order and control, regardless of justice.

Don't want to be rich?  Fine your halfway to being a Bill Gates.  Now you need the skill, the education, the hardwork, and the relentless drive to change the world in a positive way.  

Find a way to build an empire with justice and a profit;  and the world will follow your example.

Higher taxes = bigger government.   Which is very very very bad.
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 4:36 PM on January 21, 2003 | IP
dsadevil

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I agree with Falling. A bigger govt. isn't defacto bad. And an example of a government paying good wages and still doing well? How about Nokia (My favorite Finnish company)?


-------
"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 5:19 PM on January 21, 2003 | IP
kelvin90703

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Quote from dsadevil at 5:19 PM on January 21, 2003 :
I agree with Falling. A bigger govt. isn't defacto bad. And an example of a government paying good wages and still doing well? How about Nokia (My favorite Finnish company)?



The Finns did not invent the cell phone.  But they were smart to market a very high profit, high wage, low impact product.
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 5:39 PM on January 21, 2003 | IP
kelvin90703

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Quote from dsadevil at 5:19 PM on January 21, 2003 :
A bigger govt. isn't defacto bad.


Think for a moment how funny this sounds:

"Long live the IRS!"
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 5:57 PM on January 21, 2003 | IP
dsadevil

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Better than "Long live Caveat Emptor!"

And I didn't say they invented it. I said they were a successful company in a socialist nation.


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 9:22 PM on January 21, 2003 | IP
fallingupwards84

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kelvin, if it wasnt for taxes you would not have nearly all the stuff that you have now. our roads would be crap. we would not have a public school system. there would be no US mail. if you live in a metropolis area, there would not be nearly all the arts and entertainment that are available now.

there are countless of luxeries that are paid for by taxes. so you want to lower taxes? thats fine, just dont complain when you lose all your stuff.


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 10:59 PM on January 21, 2003 | IP
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The point of lowerinf taxes is to increase productivity to impact revenues. Look at Reagan... he doubled revenues with his tax cuts. For someone who seems to have so hated those tax cuts and then rambles about the government needing a lot of money...

And Falling, the Bush tax cut cut the tax in a lower tax bracket to 10%. So your poor people get some money back... Oh wait, that was a horrible tax cut only for the rich....


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Don't tell me I'm conservative...I know that!
 


Posts: 351 | Posted: 08:14 AM on January 22, 2003 | IP
fallingupwards84

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are you referring to bush's elimination of the tax on corporate dividends? because that tax cut clearly favored the wealthy


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 10:10 AM on January 22, 2003 | IP
kelvin90703

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Quote from fallingupwards84 at 10:59 PM on January 21, 2003 :

there are countless of luxeries that are paid for by taxes. so you want to lower taxes? thats fine, just dont complain when you lose all your stuff.


You hit the exact point.  Those a luxury.  We don't need them.  I want government to do this:

1) Fix roads, transport, etc
2) Tax imports
3) Maintain the military
4) Maintain the civil and criminal justice system

That is what the government did before the IRS, that is what it should be doing right now.

I don't want to support artist.  I don't want it to support luxuries.  If artist need government support, then they are probably not good enough to be self-supporting and need to find something else to do.  If I don't buy those luxuries for myself, then why force me to buy them for some else.
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 2:05 PM on January 22, 2003 | IP
fallingupwards84

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fixing roads and transportation is actually a luxury too. thats fine that you do not support arts and entertainment, but you are definitly in the minority


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 3:55 PM on January 22, 2003 | IP
    
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