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fallingupwards84

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which economic system do you think is best? capitalism or socialism?


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 11:30 PM on December 27, 2002 | IP
fallingupwards84

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i took economics last semester and learned about something called utility theory. the greater a person's income, the smailler is the marginal benefit of a dollar. the millionth dollar spent by a rich person brings a smaller marginal benefit to that person than the marginal benefit of the thousandth dollar spent by a poorer person. so by transferring a dollar from the millionaire to the poorer person, more is gained than is lost and the two people added together are better off.

this is the whole idea behind socialism: distributing the money more equally and fairly among the people


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 11:31 PM on December 27, 2002 | IP
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Socialism in the end almost never works... never really has and probably never really will. Look at the countries with some sort of socialist system. Small, quiet, not really doing anything.


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Don't tell me I'm conservative...I know that!
 


Posts: 351 | Posted: 11:06 AM on December 28, 2002 | IP
fallingupwards84

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Germany, Sweden, Canada, and Great Britain are all socialist countries. and they are doing just fine


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 11:21 AM on December 28, 2002 | IP
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Great Britain? There really isn't must socialism there. I wouldn't say Germany is doing fine. They are having really bad economic problems...Well, make that problems in general. They're having serious troubles in many things.

When's the last time you heard something important about anything in Scandanavia? Don't even get me started on Canada.

There's not really much happening in your list. It's not that socialism doesn't work--it usually does, but it's not good for economic activity at all. It's not always a good thing in the long run.


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Don't tell me I'm conservative...I know that!
 


Posts: 351 | Posted: 1:06 PM on December 28, 2002 | IP
fallingupwards84

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wow, i have never heard a person contradict himself more than you have. in your other post you said: "socialsim almost never works" and then in the last post you said "it usually does". well make up your mind, broker.

great britain is undoubtably a socialist country. after all the prime minister belongs to the "Labor Party"

what is your definition of "something important" happening to a country? going to wars against other foreign countries? canada and scandanavia are successful countries because they STAY OUT of the world's stupid business and mind their own. that is "something important"


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 8:43 PM on December 28, 2002 | IP
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I said it doesn't work in the long run...

I wouldn't classify Britain as a socialist country. I certainly can't say the same for Scandanavia.

France, Germany, and Canada don't so much socialism. I think they're a lot better off than places like Scandanavia.

Do you know why Germany is in so much trouble? It's because the government got so involved in economic matters. Now they need another bail out and the government can't do it.

Is isolationism a good policy? That's another debate.
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 10:22 PM on December 28, 2002 | IP
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Again, look at Germany. Socialism worked fine--Germany built up the largest economy in Europe, but now that economy is dead, as I said above. Socialism is to blame.

As I said, it works in the short term, not in the long term.
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 10:24 PM on December 28, 2002 | IP
Veria

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I came from a Socialistic nation and i can tell you it works just fine. I cam from Russia witch was the extreme of the socialism. In any way the only three resons that socialism has failed the open socialism at least is that of Ameriaca is- one, Procecution of religeon- two, Leading to faluere of morality - three. The socialism is definitly the better economic system due that that there is a lot more income to the actual governament and people on average and if America would step back and the religion would be alowed to be practiced then it would bloomish or if there would not be a need for a army it would succed as well just like Germany... you were right... it succeded becouse it is socialistic base....


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Mother land will rise again.... mark my words... mark them
 


Posts: 32 | Posted: 9:48 PM on December 30, 2002 | IP
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If capitailism is so darn bad, then why is America the world power it is now?


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Damn you Murphy!
 


Posts: 134 | Posted: 10:58 PM on December 30, 2002 | IP
fallingupwards84

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america may be the world power right now, but that does not mean that it is the best country to live in. the Roman Empire was the world power 2000 years ago, but does that mean that everything in the empire was ok?? you're definition of power is imperialism and globalism. the idea of having a walmart on every corner in every nation. america was best when it minded its own business and was an isolationist country. add socialism to that, and you would have a near perfect nation to live in. i would actually be proud to be labeled an american.


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 12:20 AM on December 31, 2002 | IP
Veria

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I once again agree with you... the only reason america is a world power is becouse it is isolationist and the more it gets into world afairs the more force it has to use to remain been heard from. I rightnow live in America and the people here are raised closed minded about econoic systems. I mean in Germany when Hitler was in power they became a world power due to a Nationalism ... here the kids from small age are tought to love Capitalism however it is never told the senario of you do not succed in getting lots of money. The fact is there is a great deal of nationalism in USA however it is getting more and more smashed as united States is getting more and more forceful in world afairs. And they have to do that to remain in power.... hummm sounds just like any empire that ever existed huh....


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Mother land will rise again.... mark my words... mark them
 


Posts: 32 | Posted: 01:06 AM on December 31, 2002 | IP
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So you are from Russia? I had a feeling that you were from your signature.


Did you finish my Germany example? Socialism made it great, yes, but now look at the country. The economy is dead. That is the end result of socialism on a larger scale.


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Don't tell me I'm conservative...I know that!
 


Posts: 351 | Posted: 11:02 AM on December 31, 2002 | IP
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I don't think we get so involved to maintain our status as a world power... what other nation is close to being a superpower?

I think we get involved because the world community wants us to, and we may as well. Why not spread Democracy and capitalism? Why not feed the hungry or heal the sick? We should be involved in world affairs...that world helped make us great, and it is our duty as the most powerful nation on Earth.


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Don't tell me I'm conservative...I know that!
 


Posts: 351 | Posted: 11:06 AM on December 31, 2002 | IP
Veria

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Well yes i cam from Russia.... but the only reason it did not succed was the cold war. Imagine how much money both America and Russia would habe without Cold War. So this was mostly Americans fault becouse they diployed the BOMB. ... We do not feed the hungry or the sick we go in there and make a deal that the hungry and the sick would make us money and then we give some of the money back to them so they could see us as a good nation. It is all about money my friend .... we would not go into a country to do jack if not for money... there are also nations that are close in the power of infrostructure out there to USA's power.... One nation is China in military....  Germany in finances.... Great Britan....


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Mother land will rise again.... mark my words... mark them
 


Posts: 32 | Posted: 11:25 AM on December 31, 2002 | IP
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Don't try and blame the could war on the US. Both nations are responsible.

Germany in finances? HA! We have about eight times their GDP!

Great Britain close to superpower status? Not really. Too little A GDP, not much space.

China? They're only getting somewhere because they've switched from communism to capitalism with a lot of things in the country. They can't even feed all of their people. They're really the only country close to getting there.


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Don't tell me I'm conservative...I know that!
 


Posts: 351 | Posted: 12:04 PM on December 31, 2002 | IP
fallingupwards84

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i dont think a nation needs to be a superpower in order to be a great country. nazi germany was a superpower, but it wasnt a great country. great britain may no longer be a world superpower, but their country is much better off than ours


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 12:34 PM on December 31, 2002 | IP
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How so?


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Don't tell me I'm conservative...I know that!
 


Posts: 351 | Posted: 1:53 PM on December 31, 2002 | IP
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Measure prosperity by PCI instead of GDP to make it fairer.


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 2:02 PM on December 31, 2002 | IP
fallingupwards84

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broker's definition of prosperity is how many corporations a country has


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 11:32 PM on December 31, 2002 | IP
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Veria, I am not as closed minde as you think others. The basic Idea behind socialism is good, but the human factor screws it all up. You will always have those people who are power hungry (Stalin) those who are lazy and the vey few hard working people whose efforts support the other two groups. With the way the world works, now that most of the world follws America by choice is capitailism. As they say "when in rome, do as the romans" well, the world is now rome and the romans are Americans.


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Damn you Murphy!
 


Posts: 134 | Posted: 11:35 PM on December 31, 2002 | IP
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Falling, my definition of economic prosperity is the GDP of a country, not how many companies are run in the country.

Capitalism has made America the greatest nation on Earth. Do you honestly think America would do well under socialism? Americans are lazy, greedy, and far too many are out for power. How many Stalins or Hitlers would come over the nation?


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Don't tell me I'm conservative...I know that!
 


Posts: 351 | Posted: 11:42 PM on December 31, 2002 | IP
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Or Mayor Quimbys... lol


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Don't tell me I'm conservative...I know that!
 


Posts: 351 | Posted: 11:44 PM on December 31, 2002 | IP
fallingupwards84

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i know america is a lazy and greedy nation. you dont need to tell me that. but to me, that is evidence that capitalism is not the best system. it seems to me that the reason we are greedy is because capitalism teaches us to be.


-------
i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 09:02 AM on January 1, 2003 | IP
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why are u measuring prosperity by GDP instead of per capita income?


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 3:44 PM on January 1, 2003 | IP
Veria

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The only reason United States has such a hudge GDP and so much money in general is becouse they come to other nations only for income and geographicly they are way too isolated to be involved in anything. You see people are sheep. They are eassy to deal with ... brainwash is eassy... you get it everyday here.... but economicly .... idealy .... socialism rules suprime to all. The wealth of the nation comes from it's over all welth and socialism brings in the most money.... not capitalism.... as for Germany under Hitler.... i say they did very well and they were an amaizing nation.... you see it is wrong to judge by someone deeds it is more right to over look the emotions and look at the system .... it did well... just like socialism it was better then capitalism


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Mother land will rise again.... mark my words... mark them
 


Posts: 32 | Posted: 11:14 PM on January 1, 2003 | IP
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The ony reson America is not as good as it used to be is because of the liberal ideas that have infected our government! Capitialism: work=money=food. Simple. Welfare and programs like it have turned it into: Sit on ass and complain about not getting more food stamps=food. I'm not against the idea of welfare, we just need to reform the current incarnation of it.


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Damn you Murphy!
 


Posts: 134 | Posted: 01:28 AM on January 2, 2003 | IP
fallingupwards84

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how might you suggest reforming welfare then?


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 12:21 PM on January 2, 2003 | IP
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We do need to reform it. You have to get people working and you have to make sure that they really need the help. There needs to be a lot of reform.

Japan didn't do a good job with their banking system, thus the cause for their problems.


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Don't tell me I'm conservative...I know that!
 


Posts: 351 | Posted: 2:47 PM on January 2, 2003 | IP
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but a true capitalist would say that we should have no welfare at all, even if the person really needs it


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 8:28 PM on January 2, 2003 | IP
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Did I just see Veria write that Nazi Germany was good?
I agree with reforming welfare, but not in the manner of the PRA (1996 act). Instead of making the goal of welfare programs slashing welfare rolls, make it getting people out of poverty via welfare to work programs.


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 8:55 PM on January 2, 2003 | IP
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Falling, I don't see why you are always saying capitalists don't want this or that. I think you're taking a lot of minority views and making them seem like majority views. I don't have a problem with welfare, but I do have a problem with all the waste of money it's causing. If people don't want to look for a job and they can work, take their welfare. That's where a lot of waste is in the system now.


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Don't tell me I'm conservative...I know that!
 


Posts: 351 | Posted: 9:23 PM on January 2, 2003 | IP
Veria

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dsadevil,
don't take me wrong... i did not mean that they were right at things that they did... but Germany at that time did achive incredeble things... economy rose and the nationalism spiked not becouse of things they did but rather becouse of amount of controll and focus of the economic system ... that was my only point that their system was close to one of socialism and that was the only reason they were able to focuse so much money to the government's income...

True Capitalist would not want any welfare... that is absolutly right.... becouse one would only logicly be able to say.... if i need food i would need money and there fore need a job.... so food = money = job not food= government =lazy


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Mother land will rise again.... mark my words... mark them
 


Posts: 32 | Posted: 10:51 PM on January 2, 2003 | IP
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I  think we focus to much on the extreme here. I may lean to the right a ways, but there should be a healthy balance that has benifits from both sides of the house, not all the way left or all the way right.


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Damn you Murphy!
 


Posts: 134 | Posted: 11:30 PM on January 2, 2003 | IP
Veria

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You are right bograt.... and wrong...
we should back off the extremes .... however all economic systems will grow to extrem of themselfs and fall... that is the.... point of them.... in my point of view .... i belive we can not bring prefect paradise to earth becouse the only way that would be done would be done through God .... becouse only God is perfect....


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Mother land will rise again.... mark my words... mark them
 


Posts: 32 | Posted: 11:40 PM on January 2, 2003 | IP
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Well, at least we agree on God. But, anyway, thats the point of the US government for having the "checks and balances" system. When the framers started out, they had some good ideas. They made it so the government was split into three parts that would keep each other in line and it worked...to a point.
So what we should do is for a new type of government! one with God, socialism to keep eveyone fed, and a dash of capitailism to give rewards to those people that worked hard.


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Damn you Murphy!
 


Posts: 134 | Posted: 11:52 PM on January 2, 2003 | IP
fallingupwards84

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have you ever read the wall street journal, broker? the wsj is the capitalist bible. the wsj also makes it very clear that they are against both welfare and a minimum wage. i have also read a number of books written by capitalists who believe the same thing


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 11:25 AM on January 3, 2003 | IP
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That still doesn't mean that it is a majority view.

No one said nazism didn't work so great. It did good things for Germany... It was a form of socialism, mixed with racism. Expansionism worked well under the ideals. Maybe it would work better if you took racism out and expanded by peaceful methods, i.e. showing your economic prosperity and how well everyone lives and getting small countries into your system. It set Germany up to be the economic giant it was. However, like I said before, any brand of socialism doesn't work in the long run. Now Germany's economy is crashing...


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Don't tell me I'm conservative...I know that!
 


Posts: 351 | Posted: 6:06 PM on January 3, 2003 | IP
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Socialism relies too much on the people being honest and honorable. Some people aren't... Socialism would work wonderfully in a utopian world, and I don't think anyone could really argue that. But this isn't a utopian society, so the need for your people to do the right thing and for leaders not out to do things for themselves cannot always be met.


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Don't tell me I'm conservative...I know that!
 


Posts: 351 | Posted: 6:09 PM on January 3, 2003 | IP
Veria

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Bograt .... ... Yay .... we agree ... that is exactly the system i proposed .... (well with out capitalism.... however it  is good to have that in it)...  how much capitalism would be needed?....?

Now look.... most of us here are American.... USA population is so corupted by capitalistic ideals that they care for nothing more then money.... however  that is not the case in countries like Japan , China , Russia, even some south America... you know why .... becouse the focuse of life in those countries is not economic but rather... moral.... and .... honorable...that is as long as economic system under them is not falling apart... aka the late 90's Russia... as long as you take most capitalism out of a system.... more and more of people will become more honorable.... belive me...


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Mother land will rise again.... mark my words... mark them
 


Posts: 32 | Posted: 10:36 PM on January 3, 2003 | IP
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China was mainly communist. Now they implemented many capitalist ideas and it is improving their economy.


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Don't tell me I'm conservative...I know that!
 


Posts: 351 | Posted: 11:44 PM on January 3, 2003 | IP
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a lot of it depends on whether you believe humans are naturally good or naturally evil


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 01:04 AM on January 4, 2003 | IP
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It's a mix


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Don't tell me I'm conservative...I know that!
 


Posts: 351 | Posted: 12:00 PM on January 4, 2003 | IP
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Well Veria, I was thinking of this new system,  the socialism would be enough to keep everyone fed and clothed, the bare minimums mind you. The capitalism should be there to ensure that those who wanted to work harder than the average joe got their just reward for working.


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Damn you Murphy!
 


Posts: 134 | Posted: 10:07 PM on January 4, 2003 | IP
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Bogratism? No... Brokerism... Why would I want my name on it? Dsadevilism... fallingism? Hmm... What to call it...


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Don't tell me I'm conservative...I know that!
 


Posts: 351 | Posted: 10:33 PM on January 4, 2003 | IP
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How about "nogovernmentintheworldwillchangetoitism"?


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Damn you Murphy!
 


Posts: 134 | Posted: 11:19 PM on January 4, 2003 | IP
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i like fallingism


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 01:09 AM on January 5, 2003 | IP
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nah...it makes the system sound to unstable.


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Damn you Murphy!
 


Posts: 134 | Posted: 01:20 AM on January 5, 2003 | IP
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true...how about "upwardism"?


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 11:21 AM on January 5, 2003 | IP
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I'd have to see the system in action before I'd say that would be a good name.


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Don't tell me I'm conservative...I know that!
 


Posts: 351 | Posted: 12:51 PM on January 5, 2003 | IP
    
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