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Veria

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I have been most intrested in govremental systems and as i did some research with this i have found that most all forms of govrnment fall in time.... this is the question why .... what is the most Successeful one of the systems that ever existed and why? What would be the best form of government that could be created ? why?


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Mother land will rise again.... mark my words... mark them
 


Posts: 32 | Posted: 9:00 PM on December 30, 2002 | IP
Veria

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I have found that communism is most definatly the best threory of all due to that the people will achive the most efficincy and government would achive the most money in the shortest amount of time. However the absence of religeon is a problem. what if you combine communism with theocracy. the non existing leader "government" would be the book of god the rest is clearly of peoples. that people share and controll everything there is no money and all work fo the good of the nation .... what do you think of that?



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Mother land will rise again.... mark my words... mark them
 


Posts: 32 | Posted: 01:32 AM on December 31, 2002 | IP
fallingupwards84

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i hate communism as much as i hate capitalism. people have to remember that there is a huge difference between communism and socialism:

capitalism gives money to big business
communism gives money to government
socialism gives money to the people


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 09:43 AM on December 31, 2002 | IP
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Communism and socialism are similar ideas...

Socialism almost never works in the long run, as I've said before. Look at Germany! The government kept stepping in and now the government is needed and the government can't. That's what happens in the long run.


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Don't tell me I'm conservative...I know that!
 


Posts: 351 | Posted: 10:53 AM on December 31, 2002 | IP
Veria

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Wow wow wow
now the communism gives the power and money to the people
and socialism to a government not the people

This is often made a mistake.... but the socialism under a leader that dose not actualy live in living flesh... God... and can not be re placed.... now this becomes the communism becouse the people rule themselfs under god.... they still give the money to govrnment but they keep the power and thus spliting the two systems .... i don't see any faults in Theocratical Socialism


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Mother land will rise again.... mark my words... mark them
 


Posts: 32 | Posted: 11:30 AM on December 31, 2002 | IP
fallingupwards84

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does anybody know what system Japan uses? because their economy sucks right now. i think they are capitalist


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 12:31 PM on December 31, 2002 | IP
AlexanderTheGreat

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because japan is in a repression does not invalidate capitalism. that would be a baseless point.

how is communism a good theory? it has never worked. and not just because of corrupt leaders, but because under communist system there is no incentive to work.

why is the absence of religion a problem?

Veria...where have you been studying governmental systems???? whatr u are saying makes no sense. where do you get this stuff? how would a communist theocracy be efficient?

and what criteria are u using???? how can u debate which system is best when u have made no effort to define the standards/factors by which you evaluate them?


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Alex
 


Posts: 292 | Posted: 07:09 AM on January 1, 2003 | IP
fallingupwards84

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i simply mentioned japan because broker mentioned germany.

because germany is in a recession does not invalidate socialism. that would be a baseless point


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 09:06 AM on January 1, 2003 | IP
Bograt

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tuche' (I always wanted to type that) If socialism is all about helping out those poor people, then how come the US gives BILLIONS away in forgien aid while few others give any?


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Damn you Murphy!
 


Posts: 134 | Posted: 09:54 AM on January 1, 2003 | IP
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Actually, Germany's economic problems are a direct result of socialism. It is not just that the country is in recession.


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Don't tell me I'm conservative...I know that!
 


Posts: 351 | Posted: 10:33 AM on January 1, 2003 | IP
fallingupwards84

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actually, japan's economic problems are a direct result of capitalism.


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 7:28 PM on January 1, 2003 | IP
Veria

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Bograt you see the only reason US is giving money to others is becouse they will make more money for US. There is allways a catch... Ohh yea for my critirea i am using... economic,social, and nationalistic status. The religeon would take away the only falt of communism ... absence of faith.... rendaring it perfect


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Mother land will rise again.... mark my words... mark them
 


Posts: 32 | Posted: 11:20 PM on January 1, 2003 | IP
Bograt

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Why not turn a buck or two? If we can help others and ourselves, why not? all people involved are getting ahead that way.


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Damn you Murphy!
 


Posts: 134 | Posted: 01:23 AM on January 2, 2003 | IP
Veria

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If you help one nation while it is down then it will have ability to be a threat to others around it that are introuble. You see one should go into a nation not becouse of economical modivation but becouse of the moral and logical on a global prespective reasons. This is where capitalism smells like a dog.... a wet dog.... socialism and communism and anu system driven by non economical goal will be a  lot more able to make better moves in a global world then a capitalist system will ever dream of...


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Mother land will rise again.... mark my words... mark them
 


Posts: 32 | Posted: 10:42 PM on January 2, 2003 | IP
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Economic motivation is not always why we give money to nations.

The US has forgiven billions of dollars in loans and given billions more with little or no interest. We fund most of the monetary organizations of the world. Does that third world nation do much for us? No, but we still help.


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Don't tell me I'm conservative...I know that!
 


Posts: 351 | Posted: 10:49 PM on January 2, 2003 | IP
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I love to read things written by Russians! I'm so glad you're around, lol. I love the way Russians write... Everything about Russia is fascinating to me.


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Don't tell me I'm conservative...I know that!
 


Posts: 351 | Posted: 10:51 PM on January 2, 2003 | IP
Bograt

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Once again Veria, why not? If eveyone is happy, whats the matter? If we (just say) save starving war orphans in some barren desert to advance the cause of humanity and bring peace and brotherhood to the world, they get food and we loose money. If we do it out of the desire to make ourselves wealthy, then they get food and still live better, but we get more money!! So far the dollar (or ruble, or whatever) is the best modivation out there! So why not use it to better the world? We do all these good things, yet they are bad because we do it for the wrong reasons. It that correct, or did I miss something?


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Damn you Murphy!
 


Posts: 134 | Posted: 11:27 PM on January 2, 2003 | IP
Veria

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Why thank you Broker.... i am very glad that you my friend agnolige my presence ... (ohh boy spelling errors...) any way i still disagree with you... you see it seems they do nothing for us however every dollar that is put into any nation is to the couse of capitalism.... now that is a fact.... i don't think many would disagree with me.... this is what i am talking about ... more capitalism ... means more world market for US... however it also means more class division leading to greater struggle of bigger precentage of population.... you agree?


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Mother land will rise again.... mark my words... mark them
 


Posts: 32 | Posted: 11:29 PM on January 2, 2003 | IP
Bograt

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I'll give you a little, in that capitalism breeds more capitalism. This class struggle to which you refer has been dampened sigificantly by modern welfare. So well that one does not even have to work to get their welfare checks! So while those with modivation keep on making money, all they have to do is keep paying their taxes to support the people who will not.


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Damn you Murphy!
 


Posts: 134 | Posted: 11:35 PM on January 2, 2003 | IP
dsadevil

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Of course, Veria, the US is financing the IMF's bailouts of Russia...which wrecked havoc upon us when they defaulted in the late 90's.


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 2:46 PM on January 3, 2003 | IP
Veria

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Thank you bograt , what do you have to say about socialism or theological communism?


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Mother land will rise again.... mark my words... mark them
 


Posts: 32 | Posted: 10:25 PM on January 3, 2003 | IP
Veria

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dsadevil what are you talking about mu friend?....? what are those troops you are reffering to?


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Mother land will rise again.... mark my words... mark them
 


Posts: 32 | Posted: 10:26 PM on January 3, 2003 | IP
dsadevil

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what troops? IMF = International Monetary Fund. The US is funding the IMF's bailouts that are keeping Russia from total economic collapse.


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 12:35 AM on January 4, 2003 | IP
Bograt

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Socialism? no. Theological communism? maybe. I think that almost any government system that allows a free belief in God will either prosper or change to fit the world, then prosper.  


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Damn you Murphy!
 


Posts: 134 | Posted: 10:13 PM on January 4, 2003 | IP
fallingupwards84

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socialism allows for a belief in God


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 01:08 AM on January 5, 2003 | IP
Bograt

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Just to make sure I did'nt have a case of foot-in-mouth I hit up a few web site on the matter and found a rather detailed list of reasins why one should not belive in God.
http://home.vicnet.net.au/~dmcm/Articles/God.htm
(shoud work, just got it) note the line onr the bottom, "from the socialism website".


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Damn you Murphy!
 


Posts: 134 | Posted: 01:27 AM on January 5, 2003 | IP
fallingupwards84

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there are many many many capitalists who do not believe in God. in fact, capitalism and evolution go hand in hand...the strongest survive and the weak do not.

sure, many socialists are atheist. but i am a socialist because i believe it is the most ethical system and because i believe that if Jesus were on earth today, he would want us to be socialist (see the "Was Jesus a Liberal" debate in the religious forum)


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 11:24 AM on January 5, 2003 | IP
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I'd say capitalists are far more religious than communists or socialists. Look at Europe! Socialism central, and the Church is basically being kicked out of Europe. Secularism is spreading all through the west, especially in socialist countries.


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Don't tell me I'm conservative...I know that!
 


Posts: 351 | Posted: 12:49 PM on January 5, 2003 | IP
Veria

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falling ,
you are 1200% right the socialism is the most ethnical system. In fact it incureges the ethnical befavor and training ... one of the other good factors about it is that the education is SO much better.

wow there capitalism tells you that you want more money... therefore telling you to be greedy... religeon is mostly based on forgivness and grace. therefore capitalism is opposite then ok with christians however, there is nothing in socialism that would problimate religeon


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Mother land will rise again.... mark my words... mark them
 


Posts: 32 | Posted: 02:41 AM on January 7, 2003 | IP
fallingupwards84

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awesome!! i'm 1200% right!!

me and veria are both correct when we say that socialism is the most ethical system. capitalism teaches greed. period.


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 10:35 AM on January 7, 2003 | IP
Nova

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no!!!!
socialism is awful it is the furthest fro ethical it forces you to do everything for society to economy and everything between such as politics etc. socialism is the utmost for mof control on someone.
communisum is perfectly ethical not socialism and they are very different. a theocratic comunistic nation would be perfect with christ/God as the head, which would make it actually Socialistic but with a perfect being as the head. socialism as it is today with a human leader is the worst possible form of governemnt you can find on the face of this earth!



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One God; One Truth; One Way
 


Posts: 96 | Posted: 8:31 PM on January 7, 2003 | IP
dsadevil

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really? worse than fundamentalism? I think if you gave them a choice, the swedes would prefer their current govt. to the ayotollah. But that's just me.


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 10:14 PM on January 7, 2003 | IP
fallingupwards84

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nova, give me some reasons why socialism is the worst government on earth


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 11:50 PM on January 7, 2003 | IP
Bograt

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One big question, IF there was a big change, don't you think there would be a time of little to no rights? Look now, slowly America changes farther and farther to the left, and one by one our rights get chipped away. So, what should we do?


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Damn you Murphy!
 


Posts: 134 | Posted: 10:37 AM on January 9, 2003 | IP
dsadevil

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Our rights are being chipped away by the left? Oh right you mean the right to...
a) own slaves
b) live under a christian govt.
c) prohibit disagreeable speech
d) Detain people without charges
e) prevent people from having private consensual relations.

How awful the left is, for taking away those precious liberties!


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 4:45 PM on January 9, 2003 | IP
Bograt

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Acually, I was thinking more like:

a) The right to own guns
b)The right to free speech
c)The right to be successful
d)The right to belive in God (any one will do)

Owning slaves was never a good idea, but if I remember right, we sorta used violence to get rid of that. As for "private consensual relations"
how does the current government prevent that?


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Damn you Murphy!
 


Posts: 134 | Posted: 4:56 PM on January 9, 2003 | IP
dsadevil

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first a definition of "liberalism": A desire to change, to move forward and progress society.
Conservativism would be the opposite, desiring to keep things the same, or move back.
Seeing that we can see that my "a" is a change, so it is liberal.
The current prohibition on private consensual relationships thing = Federal and State Defense of Marriage Acts and state anti-sodomy laws.

Where to you get a right to own guns? The right doesn't exist, the 2nd amendment only concerns a WELL-REGULATED MILTIA (btw, am I the only one who noticed that the 2nd amendment has non-sensical grammer?). The 7th Circuit Court of appeals in Quilici v. Morgan Grove and the 6th circuit in US v. Warin said as  much, and neither has been overturned by the supreme court. In fact the only major supreme court case on the 2nd amendment, US v. Miller, specifically rejects the argument that their is a seperate right to own a gun outside what is necessary for a well-regulated miltia.

If by free speech you mean criticizing the majority and govt., then it is liberals that are protecting it. If you mean so-called "hate speech," then I am in agreement with you and detest so-called liberals who condemn. There's a reason I characterize my self as an ACLU liberal.

Right to be successful doesn't exist (If I am poor, I can't sue anyone b/c my "right to be successful" has been deprived). If you mean allowing the ability of people to be successful, what liberals do is create an environment where anyone, regardless of birth or class has the oppurtunity to be successful, a meritocracy if you, rather than the conservative vision of a plutocracy (And no I do not support aff action).

d) Explain how liberals prevent people from believing in God. They might prevent people from forcing others into a belief. They may oppose having the govt. sponser such a belief. But they don't stop anyone from believing it.


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 11:02 PM on January 9, 2003 | IP
Nova

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socialism is the worst form of government possible beacsue it destroys the individuals right to anything. It controls religion economy aociety politics etc every facet of life and unless Jesus was running the show then you would have a human dictator and that would cause much grief and horrible destruction of the human freedoms. Communism is perfect but impossible it counteracts the human psyche one full of greed and lust. Socialism is  awful.  A theocracy is bad only if you have a controling religion if this nation was a theocracy based on true christianity it would be socialist with christ at the head. All men working for the others or atealst democratic and allowing all to chose their own path and not forcing the people to think anything but hoping that they would chose God...


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One God; One Truth; One Way
 


Posts: 96 | Posted: 11:41 PM on January 9, 2003 | IP
fallingupwards84

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communism is more controlling than socialism. here is a list of socialist countries that are free:

Canada
Sweden
Great Britain
Germany
France

and some more that i'm too tired to think of. these are socialist countries (some more than others) that are have many freedoms


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 11:58 PM on January 9, 2003 | IP
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Sweden and Germany's economies are dead, Great Britain's poverty rate is increasing, France has a nine percent unemployment rate and free healthcare is a mess, and Canada is losing its professionals to the US, the second most important concern in the country at the present time.


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Don't tell me I'm conservative...I know that!
 


Posts: 351 | Posted: 07:27 AM on January 10, 2003 | IP
Veria

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The political spectrum is not a line, but a true circle. For if you look at extreme of left you see some of the right starting to develop. This means that a perfect nation would be fine with any extreme. The left is fine due to that it will develop social aspect of a nation and education the right is fine for it will develop the economical part of a nation. But middle no…. for it will not focused on anyone thing creating lots of weak and non-moral moves and making a minority a big problem.


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Mother land will rise again.... mark my words... mark them
 


Posts: 32 | Posted: 08:49 AM on January 10, 2003 | IP
Veria

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Communism is better then socialism for there is less of a chance of a single leader dictator. I agree with Nova. Broker for God sakes, those countries are not falling apart. The only reason they are on a fall right now is becouse there is a Global depression. Look United States is on a fall too.. ohh ohh it is falling apart


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Mother land will rise again.... mark my words... mark them
 


Posts: 32 | Posted: 08:52 AM on January 10, 2003 | IP
fallingupwards84

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broker, are you saying that the United States' economy right now is "alive"? i think it is dead. veria is right when he says that the world is in a global depression (more accuratly, recession). so stop giving examples of "dead" economies when our own is dead as well.

ok ok ok. i am getting very confused. can we lay out the differences between socialism and communism? maybe i am getting them mixed up.


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 09:43 AM on January 10, 2003 | IP
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Dsa, from where do you base your "change"? I think they modern (modern= the past 5-10 years) society is the really the best we can really get. There is a time and place for liberalism and a time and place for conservativism. Yes, back in the days of slavery I would have been a liberal to the hilt. But these days I want my guns (and how would a "well regulated milita" exist with sticks aand bats?). If I belive in God, I don't want to be shunned from any government involvment. If I some some strange reason start making lots of money, I want to keep it. Save it. Horde it, then spend it as I desire. There is more, but  I have to go for a min.


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Damn you Murphy!
 


Posts: 134 | Posted: 10:48 AM on January 10, 2003 | IP
dsadevil

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First off, the odds of today being the absolute, perfect, cant get any better than this society are slim to nil. But I am sure every other reasonably prosporous society felt much the same way...up to and including the slave owning south.

There is a right to form a miltia (whether or not its a state or private intiative is up for debate). Any right to bear arms flows expressly from the miltia. The 2nd amendment, as interpreted by the sup. ct. is collective, that is, it can only be exercised by a group as a whole (IE, a miltia), not by individuals.
Believing in God doesn't "shun you" from the govt (paging John Ashcroft). You just can't use your govt. forum to impose a religious view on the rest of us. Liberals preserve the religious freedom of us all, not just those in the majority and not just those in the govt.
As to your tax dollar argument, fine, that's a legitimate position. But its not a "right" that liberals are "violating". It just is your opinion on the tax debate.


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 3:02 PM on January 10, 2003 | IP
Broker

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Germany and Sweden's economic problems are affected by the global depression, but some problems are a direct effect of socialism.


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Don't tell me I'm conservative...I know that!
 


Posts: 351 | Posted: 5:00 PM on January 10, 2003 | IP
Bograt

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I never said "the absolute, perfect" society. All I said was it's the best we ( as a group) will probably ever get. No, it by no means is perfect, it has its upsides and its downsides like everything else.


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Damn you Murphy!
 


Posts: 134 | Posted: 6:44 PM on January 10, 2003 | IP
dsadevil

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as I said "its not a 'we cant get any better than this society.' " The southern slave owners thought that too Im sure.

Broker, some of the US problems are due to the global slowdown, but some can be directly attributed to capitalism too (Enron, Worldcom, Global Crossing).


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 11:02 PM on January 10, 2003 | IP
Nova

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those nations are democratic socialist nations not just socialst they are mixed. there is still privately owned bussiness thus it is also mixed with capitalism. china is socialist not the nations you mentioned. communisum has no gov. but only the utmost respect for your fellow man that you would not take more than your share.


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One God; One Truth; One Way
 


Posts: 96 | Posted: 11:21 PM on January 10, 2003 | IP
fallingupwards84

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nova, you are very confused about distinguishing communism and socialism.

china and the soviet union are/were communist. they have/had NO freedom.

i already listed the socialist countries. they are free. socialism allows for all the freedoms that we enjoy in the united states and more. and socialism is also the PUREST form of democracy. it is run by the people and it is for the people. communism is for the government


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 12:16 AM on January 11, 2003 | IP
    
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