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     is premarital sex a sin?
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What would you people do in the days of Job?  He didn't even have scripture, yet he did right in the eyes of the Lord.  Seek the Holy Spirit on this issue.  In my mind the scriptures are clear.  If you are truly a child of God, you will believe His word AND understand His will thorugh the Holy Spirit.  This is a non-issue to most Christians.  Common sense tells you that fornication is wrong ... so does the Bible.

"Oh, But fornication meant blah blah blah in Greek."  Seek God, seek sexual purity, and quit making excuses for your sin!  By the way, what is a liberal Christian?  a fence straddler?  God's word is clear, and his Holy Spirit is even clearer!
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 02:19 AM on January 24, 2004 | IP
rego

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::::dictionary.com 's word meaning::::

for·ni·ca·tion (fôrn-kshn)
n.

   Sexual intercourse between partners who are not married to each other



so...
 I am lost, where's the debate?
 


Posts: 1 | Posted: 08:43 AM on August 3, 2004 | IP
Mitler

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[color=red] Read Hebrews 13:4 it sais let the marraige bed be undefiled.(ESV)  some translations state to obstane from premaritial sex.  The reason the Bible never directly sais premarital sex is because there is no griik word for it,but the Bible clearly states that you must keep your mind from sexual lusts. it also sais those other debatable words like sexual imorality so people tip to around that and say it only applies to within the marraige.  THe whole act of marriage is a connection of two people and you cant realy be sexualy imoral with yourself.  I hoope nobody sais well what about masterbation cause thats another one of those specific will things , and a whole nother debate.  The Truth is that the old testemant never states directly sex before marraige is wrong, but then i ask you what is Paul hinting to when he sais in 1 corinthians 7:9 that if you cant obstaian from sex then get married and he doesnt say that as a consetion but as a commandment from God.


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Posts: 1 | Posted: 8:51 PM on September 2, 2004 | IP
jesusfreak

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I believe this will answer all the questions about why premarital sex is wrong.

When God creates something, He creates it with purpose and design. The Genesis account of creation makes it clear that God's creation is "good" (Genesis 1:31). But mankind has a history of distorting what God has made, whether out of ignorance or just plain stubbornness. The golden calf of the Israelites, for example. Gold is beautiful to look at, but God clearly did not want His people worshipping it.
Sex (and yes, sex was God's idea) is no different. God created it, and therefore it is reasonable to expect that it is good. But when man distorts it by ignoring God's specific standards, it becomes harmful and destructive. So the question we've asked 'why save sex for marriage' is really a question of understanding God's purpose and design for sex. We can choose to do things God's way, and experience the beauty of His plan, or we can choose to do things our way, and experience harm and destruction (Proverbs 16:25).

So, let's talk first about why God created sex. One reason is obvious: procreation. When God told Adam and Eve to "be fruitful and multiply" (Genesis 1:28), they probably figured out that He wanted them to have sex. But God also wanted them to develop intimacy with one another, and He knew that sex would help them do that, in a way that nothing else could.

God also knew that because sex is so powerful in creating intimacy that there must be some constraints on how it was to be used, so He specifically relegated sex to the arena of marriage. The kind of intimacy that God desires between a married couple cannot occur between one person and several others; it can only be experienced between one man and one woman. Hence God has specifically said, "Do not commit adultery" (Exodus 20:14), and "Flee sexual immorality" (1 Corinthians 6:18). That is, do not have sex with someone who is not your spouse. Obedience requires that sex be reserved for one's spouse.

So far we have two basic reasons to save sex for marriage: (1) God tells us to, and (2) God's purpose and design for sex cannot be fully achieved any other way. Many, though, have argued that non-marriage sex is not all that harmful. Let's look carefully at the potential consequences for this particular area of disobedience.

Sex outside of marriage causes damage in at least two areas: (1) physical consequences, and (2) relational consequences.

The physical consequences are becoming increasingly obvious and increasingly dangerous in today's society. AIDS and other Sexually Transmitted Diseases are frightening realities. "Safe sex" is more accurately described as "reduced risk sex." The only truly safe sex is abstinence. There is also a very real risk that children could be born -- and possibly grow up without two parents. Your actions affect your life, your partner's life, and the lives of your family. They can result in handicapping an innocent baby's life as well. Worst of all the willfull destruction of human life often results from pre-marital sex.)

The relational consequences are just as real, though they may be more difficult to grasp. First, sin always damages a person's relationship with his God. Psalm 66:18 says, "If I had cherished sin in my heart, the Lord would not have listened." Intentional disobedience of God's command to not commit adultery dishonors and displeases God. Conversely, God is pleased when His children choose obedience and self-control instead of the immediacy of pleasure.

Second, relational damage happens between a Christian and those who are watching his life. The sin of adultery (i.e., televangelist scandals) causes a person's friends and even "outsiders" to view the adulterer as less committed to obedience, and more prone to hypocrisy. But a Christian who saves himself or herself in obedience to God wins the respect of those who see his or her life.

Sex outside of marriage also damages the relationship between the persons involved. Trust is the main issue here. If two people do not cherish sex enough to wait for a marriage commitment, how can they trust one another for fidelity? Conversely, a man and woman build trust and respect for one another when they both survive the struggles of self-control - each will have the confidence that the other respects them, and cherishes their intimacy.

Similarly, if a person has not carried sexual purity into marriage, his or her marriage relationship is affected by the past. If a man or woman has previously had sex with someone else, their marital intimacy has already been affected. One or both spouses will have to deal with real or perceived comparisons with "former lovers" and feeling that intimacy was not important enough for the other person to wait for it. But if both have waited for their wedding night, the intimacy has already begun with a solid foundation.

Why save sex for marriage? We've discussed several reasons: (1) God commands us to, (2) God's purpose and design for sex can only be achieved within marriage, and (3) the physical and relational consequences of sex outside of marriage are painfully real.

"But we're in love!" some might say. Maybe so, but if one believes in God's definition of love, he must realize that love is patient and kind; it does not seek to please itself, nor does it delight in evil, but is always hopeful (1 Corinthians 13). True love would be patient in waiting for the proper time for sex.

It would be kind to future spouses by not pre-harming marital intimacy. True love would be unselfish in placing God's desires and the needs of others above itself. It would not delight in the evil of disobedience, nor would it force another to disobey God. Love could never be a reason for premarital sex; rather, it should be one of the greatest reasons to avoid premarital sex.

"But we're going to be married anyway" is another common excuse. Along with being presumptuous, this stance will almost certainly leave one question unanswered: If one gives in to moral temptation before marriage, what's to stop him or her from giving in to moral temptation once married



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Posts: 1 | Posted: 5:28 PM on October 13, 2004 | IP
Sol

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Why do churches place so much emphasis on premarital sex you ask?

Because sex is the power to create life!  It's not something to be taken lightly or used carelessly.

And why is premarital sex wrong?

I'll start my response to that with another question...

If premarital sex isn't wrong, why on earth did anyone ever bother to marry in the first place?

If there is nothing wrong with premarital sex then the only thing that changes when you marry is that it becomes a sin to sleep with anyone else!  That seems nonproductive to me.

Besides, why did Paul say something along the lines of 'if they cannot exercise self-control, let them marry?'

Because if premarital sex was not immoral, then why would he give that advice?  Marrying would only mean that they would need more self control, which would make the whole thing make absolutely no sense.

Just because the bible might directly not say 'don't have premarital sex' doesn't mean that it's not wrong.  The implications make it as clear as day that premarital sexuality is very much a sin.
 


Posts: 60 | Posted: 09:36 AM on January 8, 2005 | IP
SJChaput

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Wrong in the eyes of "god" yes...

wrong morally, absolutly NOT

there is no reason that it is wrong, none at all outside of religion
 


Posts: 32 | Posted: 4:58 PM on January 20, 2005 | IP
Peter87

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There is no problem with premartirtle sex....
Why marry at all?
Because when your younger you want to have fun, but as you get older you fall in love and want to settle down and have kids with one person. To commit yourself to one person, from that day on wards.


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Why should we bow to the will of anyone? Especialy a man who our country but another voted for?
 


Posts: 301 | Posted: 1:03 PM on January 21, 2005 | IP
TommyHolly

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What if you are having sex with someone you truely love?

Love and Lust are 2 completely different things.  I love my girlfriend deeply.  Lust has no part in our relationship.  When I sleep with her, we are making love, not having sex.

Some extremist's interpretations have convinced her otherwise.  It seems after 3 years, she no longer wants to live in sin because of her love for Jesus.

 I came to this forum to look up "Premarital Sex a Sin" in an effort to understand where she got this idea.  I read through this entire thread (even the 3000 word posts) and I'm completely convinced now that the Bible says no such thing about Pre-marital sex.  The people that were against Pre-marital sex were only using associated reasoning and circular reasoning, a common trick frequently used by religions and propogandists.

Associated Reasoning:  You can argue that an apple is exactly the same as an orange because both are fruit, both grow on trees, both have vitamins and so on...therefore they are both exactly the same.  (but of course, they are NOT)

Circular Reasoning:  You can argue that pre-marital sex is bad because God says that lust is a sin, then argue your interpretation of why unmarried sex is a sin, then argue that unmarried sex is lustfull, then point out that God says that lust is a sin, and so on...

(Edited by TommyHolly 3/27/2005 at 01:41 AM).
 


Posts: 7 | Posted: 11:44 PM on February 8, 2005 | IP
Michael

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Lust- Lust
Noun
1. A strong sexual desire.
2. Self-indulgent sexual desire (personified as one of the deadly sins).
Verb
1. Have a craving, appetite, or great desire for.
(Webster definition)
When you say it's all about someone's interpretation, you are right. Whether this person is a screwball or not, is your opinion.

Many people see lust as being a sexual thing. Probably one of the most common interpretations that the Christian church has adopted.

Now, if your girlfriend wants to stop having sex after 3 years and you love her. I think you should accept her wishes because you love her and you need to accept that that is her belief that sex is a sin.

Sex is a form of reproduction. A deed that needs to happen in order for life to form.

The gift of life, is seen as a gift from God and I share this view. As a gift the deed should be sacred.".. for man will leave his mother's arms and cleave to his wife and the two shall become one." As one person they are sharing a sacred bond. And the product of their, as you said, love not lust, they shall yeild the gift of life.

Now sex today. Is aimed at being protected, safe and child birth preventative. Aimed at promoting sex. Which will inturn yeild children and the resource is renewed. By resource I'm refering to economic stability(products and services), workforce(taxes and government) and so on.

Now if you look at todays interpretation of sex and then you look at the churches views. You can see where the two come into conflict.

Now here's the best part. Free-will. As free thinking persons we have the right to choose as we please. If we feel sex is an expression of ones feelings, then so be it. It we feel it is a sacred bond that is shared between a man and his wife in order to preserve life, then so be it. It is the motive behind the deed that makes it a sin.

Now Tommy, I don't want you to think I am judging you. This is a debate and the impression I got from your post is that some of your drive is lust. Allow me to explain.

You have a girlfriend of three years, who I truly believe you love. Now after three years of you two expressing your love she decides now that she would rather wait to be married so that she is not sining. Now, when she tells you that it is because of her love for Jesus, rather then accepting this you have made an effort to find an explaination as to why this is.
You say that lust has nothing to do with it yet there is this yearning for something you have lost.

Lust is not only limited to sex. Anything that you yearn for is lust. We just happen to indulge ourselves in sin. Being drunkards- never hurts to go out with the guys and have a couple of brews.Sexual immorality- pick up a couple of chicks, maybe score. Greed- and if I can, try not to spend to much flow so I can get my PS2.

We are always lusting. Sex just happens to be the most common in our society. Look at the accessibility to pornography on the web and in stores. The promotion of birth control so you can have sex without the worry of pregnancy, basicly- Go ahead girls, you won't get pregnant, mom and dad will never find out.
And now drugs that induce sex drive, for pleasure.(legal and illegal)

So before you assume that the message is not their, make sure you understand it's context. Lust can apply to anything and everything. Sinful and non-sinful. It is our choices and motives that are the determining factors of wether our choices are right or wrong.


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".. it is not our ability to remember but its exact opposite, the ability to forget that is the key to our exisitence.."
 


Posts: 22 | Posted: 01:19 AM on February 9, 2005 | IP
TommyHolly

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Dictionary definitions are only the interpretation of the author or group of authors that wrote that version.  That is why dictionaries definitions are frequently changed a few times a year.  Last year they added words like Homer Simpson's "DOH!" to the list of words.  North Korean dictionaries have "The United States" in many references as the Devil.  The word "gay" used to mean only happy until it gradually changed.  The word "Lust" was a completely different thing than "Love" but under some Christian interpretations of it, it has been attached to the argument of pre-marital sex.  (Associated Reasoning) But it does not speak of this in the Bible.  In fact, as some people have posted from Bible passages, it seems that Lovemaking, (not lustful sex) actually has God's stamp of approval.  (See the King David post and his many wives above)

As to the second part:  Every good healthy relationship has many parts, friendship, Love, truth, happiness, stability, humor...and so many others.  One essential part of that is physical love making.

 You can't have a complete relationship without the complete absence of any one of these parts.  Yes you can go without one or a few of them  for awhile and that depends on the individual.  Personally, I know that I can't go without sex for over a year.  I go without it months at a time when I get deployed but I am always faithful to her because of my Love for her and also we can't have sex when we are apart.  Proximity makes it harder because I will definitely need it if I am with her.  But let's get this straight, I Love her, not Lust for her.  The same feeling a married man feels about his wife when he wants sex is the same feeling I have.  Going by a dictionary definition, that would mean even a married man Lusts after his wife which is contradictory.


Even though I am Agnostic, I have better morals and ethics than most of the Christians that I see on TV or in the news lately.  I always do what I believe is the good decision to make.  (That is partially why I am here, to better understand the influences of her faith and the reasoning behind the people that interpret the Bible.)  That said, I won't cheat on her, ever.  I am the best man I can be to whoever I'm dating.  Which is why I left her...  If she makes a decision, than I always respect that decision.  Unfortunately Lovemaking is something I need because it is a part of a relationship.  I don't want to be put in the position of being tempted and giving in.  I love her too much to hurt her in that way.

One thing I wanted to touch on briefly is the very makeup of the human psyche.  Our bodies are a chemical machine that is influenced by internal and external forces.  An example of an outside force would be a  person that has an allergy to corn for instance can become extremely hyper, restless and sad just by eating something with corn in it.  The strongest of the internal forces is our hormone system which among other things, plays a big part in our sexual desire.  A person that has a very active hormone system (like me for instance) has a stronger desire than most for sex.  Yes willpower can overcome it for a time but sexual desire is a strong basic human need that has been programmed (by God perhaps?) into human beings.  Some just have it stronger than others and that may be to genetics, diet, weather conditions, almost anything that has an effect on the human chemical machine.  (Because I am not writing an essay and don't want to lose you all, I'll get to the point.)  Having a strong sexual desire does not mean you are "Lustful", especially if it was God/s intention to give you that strong sexual desire for a reason.  It is only HOW YOU USE that sexual desire which makes it lustful.  One quick analogy is the old "Guns don't kill people, people kill people" argument but let's not get off topic and argue about that, it was just for the point.

(Edited by TommyHolly 3/27/2005 at 01:46 AM).
 


Posts: 7 | Posted: 3:19 PM on February 9, 2005 | IP
Michael

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What ever you want to know about religon and I will answer it to the best of my knowledge.



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".. it is not our ability to remember but its exact opposite, the ability to forget that is the key to our exisitence.."
 


Posts: 22 | Posted: 10:30 PM on February 10, 2005 | IP
Sol

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Quote from TommyHolly:

I'm completely convinced now that the Bible says no such thing about Pre-marital sex.


Quote from 1 Corinthians 7:
2  Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.


8  I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I.

9  But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn.


First of all, if in verse two if by fornication, it means not premarital sex, but in fact, extramarital sex, then why does it say for men to have wives and women to have husbands?  If premarital sex were not a sin, and Paul is referring to extramarital sex, then what would the need for marriage be in order to avoid fornication?  If the unmarried had sex, there would be no sin, and therefore no need for Paul's statement if premarital sex were not sinful.  Therefore, it must be.

Secondly, in verse 9, it says if they (referring the unmarried and the widows mentioned in verse 8) cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn.  If premarital sex is not a sin, then why do they need to marry so that they don't need to contain themselves?  If they can have premarital sex, there would be no need, as they could use that as a release.  Clearly, Paul is stating that premarital sex is a sin.

Quote from TommyHolly:
The people that were against Pre-marital sex were only using associated reasoning and circular reasoning


The people that were for premarital sex are the ones who were using that.

Quote from TommyHolly:
I have better morals and ethics than most of the Christians that I see on TV or in the news lately.


I'm hardly surprised.  The media is very biased against Christianity.
 


Posts: 60 | Posted: 12:24 AM on March 6, 2005 | IP
TommyHolly

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Point 2 shows talks about fornication with no mention of premarital sex.  Even though point 2 is a very good guide in which to live by, it is a seperate thing altogether.  I need to see something that says exactly this phrase, "Pre-Marital sex is a sin".  Otherwise point 2 can apply to eating potatos before they are fully cooked and a ton of other associated points.

Points 8 and 9 are more closely related to what I am talking about.  However, they only reccomend a lifestyle and again there is no mention of that being an actual sin.  For example: Paul also says, Christ is "the head of all rule and authority" (Col. 8:9-10)  Does that mean that Christ is the CEO of my company and signs my paychecks?  You could imply that from reading it but it is another figurative statement.  It's meant to have you think of Christ as a higher power than even your boss, but you should not take it literally and start sending him E-Mails on your sales report.

As for the Media, I wasn't even getting into mentioning them.  I would not say they are biased either way if you look at the whole group.  There is an equal number of thousands of people for and against (Don't Christian television stations outnumber normal broadcasters 4 to 1 or something like that?).  When I said that "I have better morals and ethics than most of the Christians that I see on TV or in the news lately."  I am judging them from cold hard facts and not media biased speculation.  For Example: Do a google search for "Evangelist and Tax Fraud", or how about "Church and Pedophile"...there are too many of these examples.  What gets me the most mad is that people still claim that these scumbags, these vermin, these parasites of society are going to heaven... but I'm supposed to burn just because I only beleive in the possibility of Christ!  (Obviously I'm not saying all Christians are like that because, except for the still unresolved question of Pre-Marital sex, I live a Christian-like lifestyle.)
 


Posts: 7 | Posted: 07:52 AM on March 7, 2005 | IP
Sol

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Quote from TommyHolly at 07:52 AM on March 7, 2005 :
I need to see something that says exactly this phrase, "Pre-Marital sex is a sin".


This is just my personal opinion, but I think that the reason why that exact phrase isn't found in the Bible is because it was common knowledge at the time.

At any rate, even without the phrase being directly stated, surely you must admit that based on what is in the Bible, it would at least seem possible, if not likely that premarital sex is indeed sinful and... well... "Better safe than sorry" as the saying goes.

I'm also curious as to whether you've ever considered marrying her?  That would remove any doubt from the equation, yes?  I don't mean to sound like I'm being nosy or forceful, that's just my personal opinion.

And one last thing...

Quote from TommyHolly at 07:52 AM on March 7, 2005 :
What gets me the most mad is that people still claim that these scumbags, these vermin, these parasites of society are going to heaven... but I'm supposed to burn just because I only beleive in the possibility of Christ!


My religion is probably in the minority in thinking this way, but we don't believe that.  Faith is undoubtedly important but... "Faith without works is dead," right?  I don't think a just God would eternally damn someone just because they were born somewhere where Christianity didn't exist at the time, or anything like that.  I think that the most important thing is to live a righteous life.
 


Posts: 60 | Posted: 11:14 PM on March 7, 2005 | IP
TommyHolly

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Yeah, that is her reasoning on the whole thing... Better safe than sorry.

I plan on marrying her.  Our current situations right now make it illegal.  So one of us would have to leave our job and neither wants to give up a career that we love and worked so hard for all these years.  (Things hopefully could change soon.)  Besides, we are not exactly ready just yet but soon.  (Look at my posts up above)

"Faith without works is dead" and I completely agree.  (The more common version of this phrase is "Practice what you preach.")

(Edited by TommyHolly 3/27/2005 at 01:49 AM).
 


Posts: 7 | Posted: 11:24 PM on March 7, 2005 | IP
Sol

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One final bit of advice I'd like to give (once again, I apologize if i'm being to nosy), would be that you should seriously consider learning more about, and possibly joining her religion since you plan on marrying her.  Your marriage will be somewhat better off if you have common religious beliefs, especially if you decide to have kids.

And the last thing to remember is to never, ever say "if it doesn't work out, we can just get a divorce."  That will cripple your marriage before it ever even begins.
 


Posts: 60 | Posted: 12:42 AM on March 8, 2005 | IP
TommyHolly

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Can we talk off topic here without the thread getting locked?

*Off Topic for a sec* I am always learning about different Religions, her's included.  (I knew enough to pass the CLEP test on "World Religion" without even studying.)
 However, I will never join her Religion or any other for that matter.  This bothers her I know, but you can't change people for the sake of a relationship.  That's a recipe for Divorce which I agree is bad.
 As far as kids go I have no problem having her teach them whatever she wants.  I told her this and that I'll never say what she teaches is wrong, (Who knows, she could be 100% right).  But, the deal is she can't say what I think is definately wrong either, (Because I could be right also).
*back on topic*
 


Posts: 7 | Posted: 01:49 AM on March 9, 2005 | IP
masterphillip666

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No Pre Marital Sex is not a Sin but the Rules of The Church now that I call a Sin.
 


Posts: 8 | Posted: 2:28 PM on October 9, 2005 | IP
twiggy

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this girl would be contradicting and only choosing part of her religion if she marries this guy because she can not only not have premarital sex but she would be unequally yolked if she marrys this guy which is a sin too.
 


Posts: 1 | Posted: 4:02 PM on October 12, 2005 | IP
pocket

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OK, try this one. My girlfriend and I have dated for 8 years. Lived together 4 years. Sometimes we have sex. Both of us have less than strict adhesion to any specific religion, but we lead healthy, productive lives and are always striving towards improvement and self-actualization. Would the bible consider us sinners? And if it would, why would any of you subscibe to a religion so devoid of reason and so full of perverse contradiction to reality?
 


Posts: 15 | Posted: 11:52 PM on January 13, 2006 | IP
EMyers

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Would the bible consider us sinners? And if it would, why would any of you subscibe to a religion so devoid of reason and so full of perverse contradiction to reality?


I can't say that I'm following you at all.  What are you saying?  Are you saying that because you are doing something in contradiction to the bible that the bible must be wrong?  Why is it devoid of reason to preach abstinence until marriage?  How is it contradictory to reality?  Let's assume for one moment that everyone in the world (not gonna happen, I know) followed the bible's rules on sex.  Hmmm, no unwanted children.   No sexually transmitted diseases.    No divorce.   No rape.  No sodomy.   No pedophilia.  No bestiality.  No necrophelia.  Yeah, you're right.  Reality is so much less perverse.  :P


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 2:38 PM on January 14, 2006 | IP
Blasphemy

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No, premarital sex is not only *NOT* a sin (assuming there is such thing as "sin"), it can be quite an experience.

You should have premarital sex as often as you wish. Be sure to protect yourself against STDs as best as you can.  


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Blasphemy-->"JEHOVAH, JEHOVAH!"
Don't make me sic my god on you!
There is no hell. There is only France
-Frank Zappa
 


Posts: 95 | Posted: 10:23 AM on January 15, 2006 | IP
pocket

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Sorry to lash out. This one struck a nerve. Please understand, marriage and monogamy are not the same thing. And I am for the latter.
 


Posts: 15 | Posted: 10:28 AM on January 15, 2006 | IP
jenblessed

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Hey, just had to add my two cents! Well, I have to admit I am a Christian.  I have been having premarital sex with the love of my life for a while now.  And that got me to thinking.  Is having sex with this man wrong? WE have been together off and on for 9 years.  In his absence..I have not been with another man.  So, again I wondered.  Our relationship has been rocky at times.

I thought it was because God was punishing us for premarital sex?  So, I got to searching the bible. It is TRUE. There is no reference to premarital sex or masturbation.  

But there is a catch. In Exodus 22:16.  God delivers instructions that if a man has sex with a woman that is not betrothed (engaged) or married...she is his wife!  Unless the father refuses to give her to him.  

That's the missing piece.  

This is what Paul means..when he says ..do you not know that he who has sex with a harlot joins himself to a harlot for the two shall become one flesh. ...and he was referring to the passage where God gave Adam his wife Eve...and said "for this cause shall a man leave his mother and father's house and cleave to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh"

so...whereas, Premarital sex in itself is not wrong.  Not adhering to the guidelines of it is.  A man who has sex with a woman is that woman's husband.  It is a sin to take another man's wife for your own.  that's stealing. and corrupting.  Also, David's wives, and concubines were adhering to the guidelines.  HE messed up when he took Usiah's wife, Bathsheba, and God punished by letting their child die.  Let it also be noted that living with many wives, was acceptable...except for a king but, it produced lots of tension. Look what happened to Sarah and Abraham.  And look at the mess of David's house?

And yes, if you go around sleeping with everyone you are commiting adultery.  The bilbe also  does say no orgies...it is clear about that...

So...if you want to take that leap...and go have premarital sex..remember sex makes you married to that person in God's eyes...without all the ceremony and legalities...and God holds you responsible as an adulterer if you choose to continue having premarital sex with others..if you have been, and need forgiveness, He will forgive.

If you or your mate can not be exclusive without the reins of a legal marriage...then get married!  Better to be married then to be an adulterer!  

I don't want to be with any other man...and he doesn't want to be with another woman...if we did break up...then it would be a divorce..again without the legalities...but we both would suffer.  that's why boyfriends and girlfriends hurt just as much after sex breaking up as husbands and wives!  Your tearing each other apart...

If you can't find someone to have sex with that you want to be with for life....then I strongly suggest masturbation.  It's not wrong, dirty, or any of that.  It helps you keep control over your own body, and releases sexual tension..so that you can wait for the right person without any pressure!  It is not condemned in the bible either...and don't look at pornography...that is a bunch of people fornicating...they don't keep the same partner..

don't play with sex...however you will get burned.  It has a purpose...marriage is just a covering because sex is so binding! physcially emotionally and spiritually!  And if used the wrong way you can get really hurt! And your children will suffer!  

I strongly suggest everyone READ the bible for yourself! God knew about many things and told His people..before they even considered it...restrictions on diet were for NOW proven health reasons. Even restrictions on sex... Even instructions on how to handle mold and mildew! God has all the answers! Ask Him!
 


Posts: 1 | Posted: 2:56 PM on May 7, 2006 | IP
j2866

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I have to disagree with jenblessed on the issue of masturbation.  It is true that the bible never actually mentions masturbation but Paul does talk at length about impure thoughts.  Galatians 5:19 tells us "The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery;"  I find it hard to believe someone would masturbate without some impure thought in their mind.  Now why is  it bad to act on your impure thoughts?  Galatians 6:8 says "The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction..."  The person will destroy themselves because they slowly seperate themselves from God because they are looking to satisfy "self" instead of God.  Part of the fruit of the spirit is self-control.  If we cannot find a way to control our urge for sex, including masturbation then we are closing our hearts off to God.


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Be devoted to one another in love. Honor one another above yourselves. Romans 12:10
 


Posts: 1 | Posted: 01:57 AM on July 8, 2006 | IP
LiL_Lady123

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Quote from jenblessed at 2:56 PM on May 7, 2006 :

so...whereas, Premarital sex in itself is not wrong.  Not adhering to the guidelines of it is.  A man who has sex with a woman is that woman's husband.  It is a sin to take another man's wife for your own.  that's stealing. and corrupting.  



My boyfriend and I have been together for over 2 years. We're living together and have been having sex for quite some time now. He is the first and only guy I've had sex with, though I am his second girl. According to what you said, we're committing adultery cause he's technically married to his ex-girlfriend? I hope not, cause I hate that girl! Hehe. We plan on getting married, but we want to wait until we're out of college (I'm 21 and he's almost 23), and have a little bit more money to be able to afford what we need.

Throughout my life, I kinda went back and forth about sex before marriage...not because I thought it was sinful, but just because I wanted to wait and only have sex with the man I was going to marry. Now, I believe I've found the man I'm going to marry, so I don't see the problem in having sex with him. I'm deeply in love with him, as he is with me. I understand all the posts about the fornication vs. sexual immorality thing, but I believe that what my boyfriend and I are experiencing is healthy and ok. We have sex for the right reasons...because we love each other and we want to share that love physically.

I know there are some opinionated people in this debate, and that's bound to happen from time to time. I think as long as people are monogamous and in love, sex before marriage is ok.

 


Posts: 1 | Posted: 12:16 PM on July 13, 2006 | IP
Julietta

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Let me state this:
The Bible was translated.
How can we argue word for word something that may not even contain the correct text?
Who is sure enough to say that the translators didn't add in their own opinion or change wording to make their cause seem like the word of God.
How do you know that The Bible isn't meant to be taken figuratively either?
There are so many open ended questions that cannot be answered unless we were to say, shoot someone in the forum and ask them once they are dead to come back and tell us how it is.

Even the most literal Christian can not necessarily be right in their thoughts, because religion is such a shade of grey that we must rely on ourselves to make decisions and truths, and not be told what is right and what is wrong by someone that they themselves may not have the correct thought, or grip.

It is all opinion anyway.

I believe in my own that Jesus will be more apt to forgive someone who may have made mistakes in their life, if they do not just follow others blindly as a lemming does. That is the WHOLE reason The Bible was written, it was different, new, and it challenged thought. You must take a step back and look at it from every angle, to see the true meaning of this all.
Perhaps then you can make a well informed decision on how to interpret the true meaning of God.

 


Posts: 1 | Posted: 09:14 AM on August 19, 2007 | IP
bkpisca

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So what it comes down to is you know what you believe is true already. You read the bible the way it makes sense to you.

I believe God is big enough for everyone to have their own path to reach Him. If you need to avoid premarital sex in order to feel that closeness with God, so be it. If that is not in your calling, you won't. In a lot of ways, this debate is irrelevant. God loves you, and is endlessly merciful beyond what we are capable of understanding. God is guiding us through life, and as long as we love Him back and are listening for Him, we are doing it right and will not stray too far.
 


Posts: 1 | Posted: 02:44 AM on September 5, 2007 | IP
ChocoEclair

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Okay. all you guys accurately posted verses about fornication and gods view on it.

Dictionary.com says:
for·ni·ca·tion      /ˌfɔrnɪˈkeɪʃən/ –noun 1. voluntary sexual intercourse between two unmarried persons or two persons not married to each other.  
2. Bible. idolatry.  


Plain and simple. sex between unmarried person is premarital sex. SO premarital sex is a sinful act.

 


Posts: 1 | Posted: 12:34 AM on February 4, 2008 | IP
Existantia

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"In the Mormon religion having sex before marriage is almost as bad as committing murder. Sex before marriage is the sin next to murder."

Ok, it is NOWHERE near murder. Murder is robbing someone of their life and causing much physical torture and pain. Believe me, consensual sex is nowhere near that. Between two parties it is a joyous event when there is intimacy. Quite the opposite.

We are told such silly things (ie. it is a sin to have pre-marital sex) by the church as a means of control and nothing more. It is really up to the individual. If you feel better having sex after marriage, good on you. If you don't, good on you too. So long as you make the choice for yourself and it makes sense to you. Sex isn't a sin, but it can cause confusion.


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"Dr.Frink, Dr.Frink, make ya laugh, make ya think....hoyyyven!!"
 


Posts: 6 | Posted: 11:52 AM on March 25, 2008 | IP
Existantia

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I also believe that if you avoid being sexual with your partner, you do not reveal all that is you and are thus cheating them in seeing who you are before you marry them (if thats what you choose to do). You wouldn't hide other aspects of yourself if you wanted to go into an honest relationship. Sexuality is such a big part of you, it reveals how you relate in one of the most intimate senses. It is to be accepted, like all your other parts. It is a beautiful thing that you were given and you are not supposed to feel bad about it. Have all the sex you want as long as you feel good about it. P.S. I think everyone should masturbate.


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"Dr.Frink, Dr.Frink, make ya laugh, make ya think....hoyyyven!!"
 


Posts: 6 | Posted: 12:06 PM on March 25, 2008 | IP
allisong

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Yes, I am a Christian. However, my reasons for waiting until I am married to have sex are not solely because of that. I do believe that premarital sex is a sin, but all sins are forgivable, and no one is perfect. We all sin multiple times a day... But anyway, my reasons for waiting are more for myself and my own morals.

I can't wait until my wedding night and I get to have that awkward sex with my husband for the very first time. We will have waited so long, and I think that will make it all the better. I will be able to look into his eyes and know that he is the only one that I have ever shared this part of myself with. And hopefully, I will be the only one for him too. (Although I know that is going to be very hard to find. I do consider it an extremely respectable quality in a man though to be a virgin... very much a turn-on.) That will be one thing that will be only my husband's and mine. No one else will have that experience, and I think that is awesome. I do not want to have to think of all the other partners I have been with while I am having sex with my husband. And I don't want him to either. I don't want either of us to compare one another with anybody else. I believe that two souls become one  when they have sex... and I can't wait until I find the man who I can join mine with.


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Oh God, we need you here
We're sinking fast and we don’t care
The evidence is all around me, on both sides of my door
Our hearts beat
 


Posts: 58 | Posted: 8:48 PM on April 16, 2008 | IP
mstra

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Let me start by saying that I am in no way an expert on this matter. I have just recently become a Christian (last 3 months) having previously been in several monogamous, sexual relationships with non-Christians. These are just some of my thoughts on the matter based on what I've read in the Bible, as well as articles on the web arguing both sides of the matter. I'm hoping to learn from some of you.

Ok a few things I noticed when reading through these posts. First of all, to use the definition of "fornication" is to assume that the translator of the Bible got the Greek "porneia" right. So quoting the dictionary definition doesn't cut it, because the original text was not in English. I've found both definitions of "porneia" out there so who knows.

The Bible does say several times that when two people have sex they become "one flesh" (Gen. 2:24, Matt 19:5, Mark 10:8, 1 Cor 6:16), but Paul specifically talks about not having a command from the Lord with regard to virgins (1 Cor 7:25-28).

The other way to look for answers about premarital sex in the Bible is to look for the Laws regarding marriage. Lev. 21:14 says that a man must marry "... only a virgin from his own people". This would mean that anyone who is not a virgin is unfit to be married.

Paul talks about the reality of sensual passion directly in 1 Cor 7:8-9 where he says, "...it is better to marry than to burn with passion." Later in the chapter (1 Cor 7:28) he talks about Marriage causing many troubles in life because when we are married our devotion is not fully to the Lord (1 Cor 7:32-35).

Now the Bible does not actually define what "Marriage" is. For this answer we must look to the meaning of the word at the time of the writing. Some may say that "marriage" was a secular act that has nothing to do with being a follower of Christ but keep in mind that Paul and the other writers, knew their audience and would have used language they understood (why do you think the New Testament was written in Greek?).

It seems that in the Bible marriage and sex are one in the same. This would mean that, as a follower of Christ, you are spiritually married to someone when you first sleep with them, regardless of whether a wedding ceremony has taken place. This being the case, to marry someone who is not a virgin is committing adultery (Mark 10:11-12).

This being said it not the place of Christians to judge those who are not believers (1 Cor 5:12, James 4:10-12), so to say to someone who is not a Christian, "you are in sin" is sin in itself.

 


Posts: 4 | Posted: 3:46 PM on April 29, 2008 | IP
GodIsLove

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The best places for Greek/Hebrew translations of fornication in the bible are located here:  
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVAI2TTOcgM: null  

and

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVAI2TTOcgM: null
 


Posts: 2 | Posted: 2:37 PM on October 23, 2008 | IP
GodIsLove

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Oops...Here is the other link:
http://jesus-messiah.com/html/fornication.html
 


Posts: 2 | Posted: 2:39 PM on October 23, 2008 | IP
chocolaterain

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I found this article when I did a google search on the topic...
http://www.layhands.com/IsPremaritalSexASin.htm

A little history...I have been a Christian for years.  I have considered myself a bit of a liberal Christian...and I was more than ready to wait until I was married...Until I met my boyfriend.  Within 2 months of knowing each other, we BOTH professed that we wanted to spend the rest of our lives together...Sometimes I wonder how much of that was his second brain thinking for him, if ya know what I mean...but, it wasn't 3 months into the relationship and we were already doing it.  I had wanted to wait 6 months before KISSING even, so I could finally do things right...I had messed around too much with a few other guys and I knew that we had something that would last.  But we didn't wait...and not because he made me do it before I was ready or anything either...It was completely consensual and really great...Now we've been together for 1 year 3 months...and I have been feeling guilty about it for about a year...I've never been very good at denying myself in that way...I have pushed the line for too long and then I just crossed it.  I don't know how God truly feels about it, because I feel like I am so blinded by what the church has DECIDED is Truth, rather than God's own Truth...but...I do know what is in my own heart...and that is that what I am doing is wrong...because I feel space...I don't hear Him...and Here are more things I know...

* Guilt is from Satan.
* Jesus is the ONLY way to Heaven...and the ones who get there will take the narrow path.
* God will not bless a man who does not turn from his sin.
* Marriage is complete through sex.  [However, I am my boyfriend's 4th...  =/]
* I kinda wanted someone who was experienced anyway...cuz I knew I wouldn't know what I was doing.
* I had never conceded in my mind to abstain completely.
* SO many of my closest Christian girlfriends who are all VERY strong believers had premarital sex.  One even got preggo and miscarried all before the mad-dash wedding.
* We will all be judged on Judgment Day...and the King of Glory WILL reign.  And every knee will bow and every tongue confess.
* And yet...I still can't seem to give it up.
* I've made my choice and I will live with it...I have to.
* I have not lost my salvation...even though I don't feel forgiven.
* His blood DOES cover ALL sin!
* Psalm 51
* I am grieving the Holy Spirit by what I am doing.

We are not yet ready for marriage, though it was so quickly proclaimed at the start of our relationship...I have never actually, genuinely, deep down felt that strongly for someone before in my life.  He has to finish school...and then possibly get a house...but...I just try to live day by day, and enjoy what we have...I still seek God, I still talk to Him, pray for others, listen for His whispers...I still serve Him to the best of my ability...And I hope that in a couple years we will realize what we first realized in the beginning...that we just don't want to be without the other...be married, and live happily ever after...Maybe God will forgive me for giving my heart a little bit more to another for a bit...If not...I'll spend the rest of my life on my knees begging for that forgiveness.
 


Posts: 5 | Posted: 3:55 PM on November 3, 2008 | IP
chocolaterain

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I was reading through my concordance last night.  And what I found was the same...that word porneia refers to harlotry, whores...But, I also looked up purity...maybe different words for purity include the word chaste in the definition.  Even thought it may not be clear whether premarital sex is a sin, it is clear in the Bible that we are called to purity...and therefore the figurative definition of cleanliness...and chaste.  Chaste: 1: innocent of unlawful sexual intercourse2: celibate3: pure in thought and act : modest4 a: severely simple in design or execution : austere b: clean  , spotless.  I suppose referring to that first definition, it still may not be clear...Thoughts?  Everyone must be so tired of talking about this...But I just joined the conversation....  =/
 


Posts: 5 | Posted: 3:31 PM on November 5, 2008 | IP
mstra

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I'm not really sure if this will help but since my first post I have been in a relationship with another christian for about 4 months now and we have decided to wait until marriage. There are some other physical things that happen, (the details are not necessary) and we've noticed that by pushing the line too far, feelings of insecurity and such seem to work their way in. I don't know how it's biblical exactly, but saving these things for a relationship that is backed by a public proclamation that no one is going anywhere seems to be a lot better way to go than allowing these kinds of bad feelings into the relationship. Even if you both know you're getting married, it's one thing to say it to each other and another to actually make a big deal about it with a wedding and such. Even for a non-christian this is a big deal but add in that as Christians we also see marriage as a commitment to God and you've got yourself a pretty important commitment. That's a lot to fall back on when sex makes things complicated (and it does...)
 


Posts: 4 | Posted: 3:56 PM on November 5, 2008 | IP
Anonymous

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Hi,
I have read through much of the information posted in the 3 pages discussed here as well as looked at other sources including the original references to sexual immorality in the (English translations) Torah or Old Testament of the Bible. As much as it throws some of my previous belief systems upside down I cannot deny that that the references in the Bible or Torah DO NOT mention specifically that sex before marriage is a sin. The other references to homosexual acts, taking another persons wife and incestuous acts are quite specifically mentioned and multiple times in the Torah/Old Testament.

I wish to raise some questions regarding sex outside of marriage and starting with the following verse. I have used the KJV version simply because the wording here is a bit different from NIV and other versions: This is from Deuteronomy 22:


 13If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her,

14And give occasions of speech against her, and bring up an evil name upon her, and say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid:

15Then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel's virginity unto the elders of the city in the gate:

16And the damsel's father shall say unto the elders, I gave my daughter unto this man to wife, and he hateth her;

17And, lo, he hath given occasions of speech against her, saying, I found not thy daughter a maid; and yet these are the tokens of my daughter's virginity. And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city.

18And the elders of that city shall take that man and chastise him;

19And they shall amerce him in an hundred shekels of silver, and give them unto the father of the damsel, because he hath brought up an evil name upon a virgin of Israel: and she shall be his wife; he may not put her away all his days.

20But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel:

21Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.


So I am wondering what exactly the sin or "folly" of the girl "playing the whore in her fathers house" means. Does it mean sleeping around or one night stands? Unfortunately I have not found other verses like this or any others that explain this further as to exactly what kind of sex before marriage is considered "playing the whore" and therefore a a sin or act of great shame while in her fathers house.

There are acts of sex outside of marriage that are mentioned in the Torah or Old Testament that are also not specifically mentioned as a sin or offence. I would point out as evidence to this claim all that all the times concubines are mentioned in the Torah/Old Testament, none of them I can find anything about saying that they are a sin. (If you visit biblegateway.com you can search for concubine listed in the Old Testament.) A concubine at least from wikipedia's explanation (check this site for the a more direct translation/explanation of the Hebrew word tranlated as concubine: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilegesh) seems of somewhat similar nature relationship to a wife (has with her husband) maybe without all the official titles, ceremonies and inheritance. From what little I know about the concubine and her male partner's relationship I can only guess that he has an exclusive relationship with her (ie she does not have sex with other men) such as it was for a man and his wife(or wives) in those times. Also it seems that she lives with her male partner and is provided for in the same or similar manner as a wife.

I would like to use this reference Exodus 22:16-17 (Amplified Bible)

16If a man seduces a virgin not betrothed and lies with her, he shall surely pay a dowry for her to become his wife.

   17If her father utterly refuses to give her to him, he shall pay money equivalent to the dowry of virgins.

In this instance sex outside of marriage is not stated as a sexual sin but rather more like a social or customary responsibility the man is obligated to be engaged to her unless the father refuses. I think it interesting that it does not talk about divorce and rightly so as I would think think the man by having sex did not mean he married her (or as others have tried to conclude that the act of sex equals a marriage bond or seal) but rather through his actions has made himself engaged to her according to this law.  As the man did not marry but was rather in a forced engagement from his actions then the father refused and the marriage was called off as a result can adultery be put apon them as a sin when later on they marry someone else and have sex (as mentioned in the new testament about divorce and remarrying unless for marital unfaithfulness is considered adultery). I would think it is not possible to call them as committing adultery when later on they marry someone else as in the first place they did not marry and I can see further no example of this being a sexual sin.



I would like to quote this verse too: Deuteronomy 22:28-29 (New International Version)

28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29 he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.
 

This is another verse where we see again (although this time under terrible circumstances) that sex before marriage is not mentioned as a sexual immorality or sin but rather again the man is forced to be engaged and pay dues for his actions. So to it also shows again that the act of sex in this instance is not the same as the act of marriage or rather that sex in this instance is not the same as a "seal or covenant" of marriage as others have suggested.

This verse and the one above it I would like to raise some questions. This verse implies in some different English translations that the man seized the virgin or other translations such as the NIV translate it as rape. Whichever way it is translated it looks very much like the man was very forceful with the woman and that sex in this instance was most likely non-consensual. In this verse it may also be interpreted that he has to pay the father fees and marry the girl without ever divorcing her because he forced her into sex. Could it also be possible that these terms (marriage, no divorse, paying fees) are not because of simply having sex before marriage but rather the penalties of the man forcing the girl? In the other verse above where the two have sex outside of marrage it does not say that the man must never divorse her. Also what about the term seduce? The man seduced the woman into sex... Could both of these verses be interpreted that the sex was not consentual or at least in some way the man manipulated the woman into sex? Could it be interpreted that he had a social/cultural responsibillity to pay dues and be forced to be engaged becuase he manipulated her?

From my own interpretation I cannot agree with the the viewpoints of some others who say that sex equals marriage or that by having sex it is a covernant seal that makes you married. Athough I can see that it was used as a way of consumating or sealing the marriage relationship with a virgin as shown in this verse I quoted above: 17And, lo, he hath given occasions of speech against her, saying, I found not thy daughter a maid; and yet these are the tokens of my daughter's virginity. And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city. Using also this verse as an example I cannot agree with others viewpoints that marriage is just a modern day institution or ritual. I cannot agree that back then marriage was simply the word used for their relationship once they had sex and lived together. The comments of the tokens of her virginity and then stating that they are cloths that are taken before the elders would imply very much so that at the time there were specific rituals concerning marriage. At the time of these laws being written about adultery and sexual sin there was I think definitely a difference between sex and of marriage (and all the rituals, bonds and repsonsibilities that go with it).

Lastly I would like to ask the question about concubines. We can see that it is possible from the 1st verse I mentioned that there is instances where sex before marriage (while the girl is still living with her father) that can be called "playing the whore" and is regarded as all other sexual sins a terrible offence (punishable by death). I do not know what exactly this "playing the whore" is but I can only guess it could be having sex with multiple partners or one night stands. In that age of pulligimous relationships I do not see any examples of where it was considered okay that a woman had more than one partner although a man could have multiple wives or concubines, anyway I digress. Under the structure of the steady relationships be it called defacto or common law today then it seems to be called concubine. Is there any instances were breaking up with your concubine is considered actual "divorse" becuase if there is then from verses mentioned in the New Testament Letters it would be committing adultery for them if they took new partners/or husmands/wives. If there is no mention that breaking up with a concubine is actual divorce then I would think that there are no grounds to call this adultery. If this is the case then I would also think it can be related to modern day relationships and that people who are in a steady relationship with a person who has had a previous partner (but not married) that it would not invoke adultery.

Please feel free to quote any directly related material such as verses relating to breaking up or implying divorse with a concubine if you can find any.


Thanks and I hope this promotes more thinking

(Edited by Anonymous 3/19/2009 at 12:37 PM).

(Edited by Anonymous 3/19/2009 at 1:10 PM).
 


Posts: 3 | Posted: 12:33 PM on March 19, 2009 | IP
mstra

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I think it is important to understand the overarching view the Bible takes on sex.

It is wrong to say that because people in the Bible do certain things that those things are not sin. The Bible talks about lots of people who sin and doesn't point out what their sin is every time they are mentioned. To say something is okay because someone in the Bible did it and the Bible didn't point out that it was wrong is like saying it's okay to kill as long as no one writes the event down.

The verses that a lot of people have mentioned, (myself included) can go either way when taken out of context, but if we look at the general theme in the Bible it becomes clear that God intended sex for marriage. (I'm not citing a specific verse because there is no specific verse.) It is like saying that Jesus is not God because the Bible talks about them as two different people. The word "trinity" is not in the Bible but we, as Christians, believe in it.

As for the argument that the language seems to be talking about social rules, remember that all scripture is from God. (2 Timothy 3:16) Reparations are paid to someone because you have committed a crime against them. Just because something is a crime against your neighbor does not mean that it is NOT a sin against God. This simply makes no sense.

On the sermon on the mount Jesus says that, "whoever looks lustfully after a woman has already committed adultery in his heart." (Matthew 5:28) How do you have sex with someone without lusting after them? Note this does not apply to marriage because the couple has been united by God (see Genesis 2:24-25)

From a rational standpoint, look at it this way. If sin leads to death (the Bible says it does, I just can't remember the verse right now) this means that our sins have negative effects on our lives. So then, if we wait until marriage, we sacrifice a few years of pleasure for many years with our spouse. If we don't wait, we sacrifice many years of pleasure with our spouse for a few years of pleasure now.

So if sex outside marriage is not a sin, we lose a few good years of pleasure right now, and if sex outside of marriage IS a sin we lose a lifetime of freedom with our spouse.
 


Posts: 4 | Posted: 11:35 AM on March 20, 2009 | IP
chocolaterain

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I hear what you're saying here.  I hear it in the way that I am listening and trying to do so openly.  However, I must say that it is difficult to HEAR what you're saying when your points are moot.  For example, the Bible SPECIFICALLY DOES say that murder is a sin.  It also says SPECIFICALLY that Jesus IS God.  In your attempt to argue logic/reason, you yourself have made little sense of the Scripture.  And based on my personal experiences and observations [not to open a whole new can of worms here] but I think God is a little more in the gray than we all have been believing.  Explain transgendered children to me, God.  Explain to me how someone can be gay, God.  I just don't understand that if You are eternally kind, why would you make someone gay and then condemn them for it?  Maybe this is for another discussion, but my point is that, the older I get the more I realize how little of life sits in the black and the white...and how much more is really just in the middle.  
 


Posts: 5 | Posted: 11:53 AM on March 20, 2009 | IP
chocolaterain

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By the way Anonymous...You have presented some excellent points here.  And it makes SENSE.  Thank you!!
 


Posts: 5 | Posted: 11:55 AM on March 20, 2009 | IP
mstra

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Life may be in the gray but the Bible is not. Your argument about being gay assumes that God made people that way. This is in and of itself an act of faith (which, again, is another debate altogether.)

My point was that, rationally, you can start from either side of the argument and reason your way to a conclusion using the SAME scriptures. This is man graying the issue. Keep in mind that in Acts, God gives us the holy spirit to guide us. So if the Bible seems to say nothing on the subject, ask your adviser. I doubt that God will tell us, through the holy spirit, to go sleep with our girl/boyfriends. (I also know from personal experience that when I stopped trying to re-translate the Greek and simply asked God he told me I had messed up. I realize that from a rational standpoint this fact holds no water, but for my personal life I trust it.)

I also think that my point about the trinity was missed. This was to refute the argument that because the Bible doesn't use the term, "pre-marital sex" then it can't condemn it.

I do not have the energy to continue responding to this, as I think one thing we can all agree on is that someone will always have another argument. So I'll leave you with this: Are you seeking God's will on the issue, or are you seeking to rationalize actions that you want to participate in? Are you worshiping Him or are you worshiping sex?

Ask God, then do what He says.
 


Posts: 4 | Posted: 12:17 PM on March 20, 2009 | IP
Anonymous

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Firstly thank you for your replies and sharing your experiences.

I hope I have not made this forum drag on longer and I do not wish to argue viewpoints. I am sorry if I have come across in this way. I feel that by raising some points it has left more questions unanswered. I think this is a good thing though and that is why I am here asking for help. I feel a bit tangled in laws, trying to understand sins and trying to avoid them.

Please let me explain myself a little and keep in mind that I do not mean to offend. I have come from a Christian upbringing. In my teens I had some (I feel) life changing experiences that I believe were of a spiritual nature or at least of a very profound emotional/heightened level that made me take notice of something other than the ordinary. Early into my adulthood however I left the church communities. I felt saddened by the needs of disadvantaged people more and I wish the churches would have focused more on helping them. I became more aware of the churches hunger for money and hypocrisy to the point where eventually I just felt I had to leave.

After a simple question in my mind and a few more years to follow, I had a much more interest in other religions, spiritual teachings and practices. Following my own path and discovering things along the way led to a larger view and feeling that God is all around us. My question that started this was. If God is love and he loves us all, would he only reveal himself to one chosen group of people in one time through one religion while leaving all the other millions of people for thousands of years in total darkness oblivious to him? So as you can probably guess I took on the view that maybe God does reveal himself to everyone... as this followed more research I found very good points in all the religions I looked at. I took the view that if God is love, then all things that have true love in them are from God as I do not think that there can be true love without God. So in this same view I became to respect different religions as I had found good in them. The good points I took from them helped me to see God in new angles and new areas of my life.

For a number of years I have no longer called myself a Christian as I do not want to be part of the hypocrisy I have seen or or have any part in disrespecting other religions or other peoples experiences. I do try as best I can to keep the rules that are in the Torah or Bible as I feel this is right for me and and a good moral/ethical code.

I hope I have not given you too much needless information. Which brings me to this point. I've  always wanted to find a good partner and get married. I think that it this can be a whole other dimension of life that can bring not just more companionship but more love. I'm getting a bit older now and I don't know what exactly I should and should not be waiting for. I don't visit any Christian or Jewish groups and generally my viewpoints of religion/spiritually are quite different from the people there so it's just not compatible for a relationship. However I do fairly often meet people in my life who are more compatible in the spiritual/religious viewpoint though they have a completely different upbringing on the sex before marriage thing. This may sound ridiculous but I don't know if I marry someone who has already had a few previous relationships & had sex with those partners am I committing adultery? Still not clear as I know that verse in the new testament says that if a married couple divorces and unless for reasons of marital unfaithfulness if they take new wives/husbands they are committing adultery.

For a final question it would be... I have lived in belief of a romantic/fairytale relationship, one where you get married and live happy, yet the relationships I have had have not been this so far. Unfortunately all close the friends around me I have seen have had fairly devastating breakups of relationships ones that have gone on for years, ones that the couple were close to getting married others where the couple did get married. All the relationships were ones where things got so bad and unhealthy that partners were both very unhappy for quite a long time, lots of  arguments, depression, so on. I think they were not good matches, probably got involved too quick and hung on too long because they were scared of not being with someone. My point is that I would like to know better if sex before marriage is truly not a sin if there is an allowable concubine (defacto) type relationship allowed because marriage is not something I want to rush into. I do not want to feel pressure to get married because of sex as anything that rushes things could be a huge disaster. I think it takes a whole lot of time to find out if you are truly compatible and happy together and I think in the mean time there needs to be a backup plan of being able to pull out if the relationship is harmful rather than positive.

Please feel free to provide any thoughts or insights you may have on this subject.

Thank you


(Edited by Anonymous 3/20/2009 at 6:33 PM).
 


Posts: 3 | Posted: 6:17 PM on March 20, 2009 | IP
chocolaterain

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Anonymous: I definitely know where you are coming from on the majority of the things you mentioned.  I think you would be surprised to know that there are a lot of people out there like you.  I personally have talked with God extensively about my sexual relationship with my boyfriend...and I sincerely do not feel any pull to get out of it.  I have gone through trying to figure out if I was justifying what I wanted to do, versus what "God wanted me to do."  My questions arise on this matter as well...What are things that the church has been teaching for years, but does not necessarily have a complete biblical basis?  Welp, I would say sex, before marriage to be exact.  While I have found millions of verses that talk about purity, the love I have for my boyfriend is pure and I want to manifest that to him.  Our relationship is pure.  And sex is a way of worshiping God.  He created it for our enjoyment.  I believe that people should not go sleeping around or having multiple partners.  I believe that one should develop a deep friendship and certainty that you want to go through extremely tough odds with each other before you have sex.  I believe that one should NEVER cheat.  And I believe it is something that should be very special and separate, unique.  I don't think that anyone under the age of 25 is capable of deciding when is the right time.  I believe that God loves EVERYONE.  He hates the sin and not the sinner, as they say.  And I also believe that God is love and anything with love in it must be God.  So...I really hope this gives you some encouragement...I can't remember all that you wrote, but I sincerely hope this helps.  There is someone out there.  I have learned not to put so much pressure on things...but to just be.  I have also been trying to fight the legalistic nature in me to realize what God's full potential is for me.  And I encourage you to do that as well.  I want to continue to ask myself---Is this something that man invented?  Or is this something that God really wants me to know/learn?  

I would also like to encourage you to step away from believing in the magical fairytale relationship.  No relationship is perfect.  Birds don't chirp and cherubim do not fly around your head when you finally meet that person.  Every human is fallible and will make many mistakes and hurt you.  Even the best marriages have their flaws and compromises.  You may only be seeing the outside of things.  

I would encourage you to take mstra's advice and take some time in deep prayer to seek what God tells you to do or not do.  You need to know this before you get into a relationship so that proper boundaries can be set.  Relationships are ALL about boundaries.  Marriage is a VERY serious decision and it is so good to hear you want to take the time to know for sure.  I can completely understand this as I have seen so many Christians JUMP INTO marriage within the year they meet.  It scares me, because I know they just want to do it, even if they won't admit it.  That is VERY dangerous, as you have stated.  

Seek God.  Know Him.  Know His answers for you.  I wish you the best of luck on that journey.  
 


Posts: 5 | Posted: 8:38 PM on March 20, 2009 | IP
Anonymous

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I thank you very much for your replies and experiences. I would like to feel I understand God's intuition well enough as chocolaterain has kind of stated about how she feels about her relationship with your boyfriend. Maybe one day I will too. However I do know that from my past experiences in relationships sadly there is a massive amount of overwhelming emotions that I have in the past mistaken for being something higher. For this reason I will post a quick question again as I a few minds are better that one.

I just wanted to ask again what others feel about this situation. I am only a couple of years away from 30. Should I wait for someone who is a virgin before considering a relationship and later marriage or is this not important? This may sound ridiculous but I am sincere in my question. If the act of sex is equal to marrying someone as others believe (I admit I don't know) then according to the new testament of the bible I where it talks about divorce I would be committing adultery if I married a person who was not a virgin if the act of sex does equal marriage thing was true. Obviously I don't want be committing adultery or starting out a relationship on such shaky possibilities so this is why am asking for advice on what others think about this issue.

Thank you again
 


Posts: 3 | Posted: 1:22 PM on March 31, 2009 | IP
Joah77

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As far as that goes... I think the person can ask for forgiveness for their sin, and then you can enter the relationship without doubt. I do not believe God intends for the person who screwed up and had sex to go on forever without a spouse. He is loving. And He will forgive. So, If you/they messed up, ask and be forgiven, then live like you BELIEVE He forgave you- from that day onward like you have been separated entirely from that sin, and refrain from repeating it. On a side note to other posts.. Stop acting like you're supposed to understand everything God does and His reasoning for doing it. The bible says if we know the son, we know the father, and that the Holy Spirit will make known the ways of God. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Truth, and Jesus is the Truth. It is not hard to comprehend if you want to understand it. We are very limited creatures, dealing with an unlimited Spirit- as such, do as people have been posting and "seek Jesus about this"
Thank you for your time.
 


Posts: 1 | Posted: 3:24 PM on May 26, 2009 | IP
Clutch

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In Bible translations and Bible commentaries and so on, when they talk about premarital sex they often refer to it as "fornication." Here's what the word "fornication" means:

   * "Sexual intercourse between a man and a woman who are not married to each other." (West's Encyclopedia of American Law)

   * "1. Noun - Unlawful sexual intercourse on the part of an unmarried person; the act of such illicit sexual intercourse between a man and a woman as does not by law amount to adultery." (The People's Dictionary)

   * "1. voluntary sexual intercourse between two unmarried persons or two persons not married to each other." (Dictionary.com Unabridged)

   * "Fornication: Sexual intercourse that is "illicit", outside of marriage." (Medical Dictionary)

   * "fornication n. sexual intercourse between a man and woman who are not married to each other." (Law Dictionary)

there are no loopholes

God tells us to flee from lust, adultery, & fornication

If you have ever looked at a person and lust for them you have committed adultery in your heart therefore sin

"Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." (Galatians 5:19-21, KJV)

http://www.layhands.com/IsPremaritalSexASin.htm
 


Posts: 1 | Posted: 04:23 AM on October 8, 2009 | IP
wodanick

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The Greek word used in every situation in the New Testament is "Porneia", which means illicit sexual activity, adultery, fornication, incest, beastiality,... the list goes on.

My view of it is this: If it does not inhibit your relationship with God, then you are not committing a sin in this case.

Lust is always used in a sexual connotation, in any other sense it is coveting.

And wanting something that is not yours is a good definition of covetting. Just for kicks, if you are single and I am single, and you say "You can do whatever you want with me"... does that not give me free reign to do what you say? The spoken word is very powerful (reference Jepthah in Judges).

The Bible clearly denounces sexual immorality and fornication, and the "present crisis" and other things mentioned in 1Corinthians 7 is when, in Roman culture, men would get married for political reasons, and still have sex with whomever they chose. Since adultery is a sin clearly by God, a married man could lie to a woman and have sex with her, and she could still be sinning if it is adultery. Paul is using this to protect Christians, since he "has no command from the Lord, but is one who is trustworthy".

Just do what you feel in your heart you should do, and don't let tradition rule your life.
 


Posts: 1 | Posted: 5:26 PM on October 26, 2009 | IP
Goldsword

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Things like sex before marriage being considered a sin give Christians a bad name! They make us seem the same as fundamentalist muslims who stone people to death for adultary.

For a start most Christians do not take everything in the Bible literally even fundamentalist ones. But many keep insisting that all sex outside marriage is a grave sin! Sometimes sex outside marriage will cause problems but not in most cases.  

If the Bible is teaching morality then surely it would be better teaching moderation in sexual relationships rather than a complete ban on all sex outside marriage. We all know that uncontrolled sexual promiscuity can result in sexual diseases and unwanted pregnancies so why not just teach saving sex for serious relationships and being responsible about sex rather than insisting on a total ban of all sex outside marriage.

I think fundamentalism in general gives Christianity a bad name. A good book to read is "stealing Jesus, how fundamentalism betrays Christianity".

QUOTE: "Common sense tells you fornication is wrong"

No it doesn't! Most people do not consider consensual sex between two people who love each other to be wrong whether they are married or not! The fact is that most people whether they are athiests or Christians do have sex before marriage. In surveys done about sexual behaviour very few people have only ever had just one sexual partner.





(Edited by Goldsword 8/31/2010 at 09:25 AM).
 


Posts: 5 | Posted: 09:15 AM on August 31, 2010 | IP
    
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