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Were the Founding Fathers Christians? 

http://www.youdebate.com/DEBATES/founding_fathers_religion.HTM
 


Posts: 31 | Posted: 7:41 PM on April 30, 2002 | IP
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I have researched this so thoroughly that I am convinced beyound ANY shadow of a doubt. Though some of the founding fathers were deists, most notably, Franklin and Jefferson, the VAST majority were unabashed Christians, including Washington and an OVERWHELMING majority of the signers of the Declaration of Independence.  

One gentlemen, David Barton of www.wallbuilders.org has personally amassed truck loads of original source documents proving beyound any shadow of a doubt that America was founded as a Christian nation.null


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I Once Was Lost, But Now Am Found.
 


Posts: 1 | Posted: 11:04 PM on September 11, 2002 | IP
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Yes.  They were Puratins, which is why they broke away from England, to practice Puritanism freely.


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I am Exxoss, come to save you all from your impending doom!!!!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

-Exxoss
 


Posts: 438 | Posted: 4:31 PM on September 25, 2002 | IP
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BDF!   The founding fathers created a secular government!  That's what is important!  They knew that religion does a terrible job of government!  
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 01:40 AM on October 17, 2002 | IP
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Whats bdf?  And the founding fathers arrived in Jamestown at first, and they were puritans ran by an english monarchy in which religion was all to you.  Then, mayflower, etc.  and they arrived at a rock, then made a PURITAN RUN government in what is now massachuesetts.


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I am Exxoss, come to save you all from your impending doom!!!!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

-Exxoss
 


Posts: 438 | Posted: 9:26 PM on October 17, 2002 | IP
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yeah, a secular government from the beinging, thats why we have In God we trust, and one nation under God....


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No time for mediocrity.

People call me a Bible-Thumping reactionist ...and I'm proud to bear the name.
 


Posts: 293 | Posted: 01:20 AM on October 18, 2002 | IP
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both which were added to our motto and pledge respectively in the 1950s....


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 1:10 PM on October 18, 2002 | IP
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"I swear to tell the whole truth, and nothing but the truth so help me God"


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No time for mediocrity.

People call me a Bible-Thumping reactionist ...and I'm proud to bear the name.
 


Posts: 293 | Posted: 7:04 PM on October 18, 2002 | IP
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something that isn't required to be said by atheists. And I have no idea when that started.


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 10:39 PM on October 18, 2002 | IP
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Some say that we were founded as a secular nation. The Supreme Court doesn't agree:

“Our laws and institutions must necessarily be based upon and must embody the teachings of the Redeemer of mankind. It is impossible for it to be otherwise. In this sense, to this extent, our civilization and our institutions are emphatically Christian.” - U.S. Supreme Court, Church of the Holy Trinity v. U.S., 1892


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Are you a man of the times, or a man for the times?
 


Posts: 51 | Posted: 01:06 AM on December 31, 2002 | IP
Veria

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The suprime court could desigree all it wants.... they will .... Our govrnment would never admit beeing secular becouse it would have to pick a main religeon and due to that they are limited to say that we are not secular. The founding fathers came here and they were escaping relegeous procecution ... well not them but most people were. They knew but they could not make this a nation that discriminates against any religeon therefore .... they could have and were christian or at least religeous to think of othere religeous people



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Posts: 32 | Posted: 01:16 AM on December 31, 2002 | IP
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According to Patrick Henry our nation did pick a religion: Christianity.

“It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians. Not on religion, but on the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ!” - Patrick Henry


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Are you a man of the times, or a man for the times?
 


Posts: 51 | Posted: 01:20 AM on December 31, 2002 | IP
Veria

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It is different if one man says so .... but if suprime court sayes we have a religeon then we could pass a band on other religeons and therefore we are christian but not openly from our govrnment


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Mother land will rise again.... mark my words... mark them
 


Posts: 32 | Posted: 01:26 AM on December 31, 2002 | IP
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Not openly? Are you speaking of today or our founding? At the time of our founding Ben Franklin (who was not a Diest), when calling for prayer to open the sessions, said, "I have lived a long time, sirs, and the longer I live, the more convincing proof I see, that God rules in the affairs of men!" There is nothing about that or the "Unanimous Declaration" that is private, or trying to hide our Christian foundation.


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Are you a man of the times, or a man for the times?
 


Posts: 51 | Posted: 01:39 AM on December 31, 2002 | IP
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All i was saying was that they could have been religeous but they didn't include it in our government as a fundamental base becouse they knew how many people came here of religeous procecution.... that is all you agree with that?


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Mother land will rise again.... mark my words... mark them
 


Posts: 32 | Posted: 01:48 AM on December 31, 2002 | IP
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I believe that this gov't was fundamentally founded on the principles of Christiantiy. You do not agree?


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Are you a man of the times, or a man for the times?
 


Posts: 51 | Posted: 01:51 AM on December 31, 2002 | IP
Veria

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yes... prehaps founded on them yes.... however was inturpeted differently by other people and was covered up by the govrnment later... ohh boy now i am confused about what i think.... i guess you are right about that they did found it on those principles... but do you think it is today?



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Mother land will rise again.... mark my words... mark them
 


Posts: 32 | Posted: 01:59 AM on December 31, 2002 | IP
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If you want to find out how the Constitution was understood in 1787, quote people that supported the Constitution, and not those who thought the Constitution was bad.  Patrick Henry made a number of statements suggesting that our nation was founded on belief in god, and that it was important to acknowledge god in civic affair, But Patrick Henry lost the battle to put religion in the Constitution.  More to the point Patrick Henry was an anti-federalist, and vigorously opposed the Constitution.  Quoting Patrick Henry to prove anything about the Constituion is like quoting the chairman of the Democratic party to prove thing about the Republican Party platform.  It is intellectually dishonest.
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 07:16 AM on December 31, 2002 | IP
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yes patrick henry was against the constitution. and explain this to me, david:  how do you explain freedom of religion?


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 09:46 AM on December 31, 2002 | IP
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Yes, when Patrick Henry was asked to go to the Constitutional Convention he said, "I smell a rat!" I am therefore only too pleased to quote a man know as "The Father of the Constitution." James Madison said:

"We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future of all our political institutions...upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves according to the 10 Commandments of God."

And please don't write back trying to say that he didn't say that cause you can find it in "The Papers of James Madison, #8"


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Are you a man of the times, or a man for the times?
 


Posts: 51 | Posted: 12:45 PM on December 31, 2002 | IP
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Veria,

Once you are pour the foundation for something how can you change it without the destruction of the object? Yes, we are still founded on the prinicples of Christianity. Note: We are a nation founded on Christianity, but we are not a "Christian nation" today.


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Are you a man of the times, or a man for the times?
 


Posts: 51 | Posted: 12:48 PM on December 31, 2002 | IP
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Falling,

Who are you refering to as "David?" If it is me, my name is not David, but I will take the liberty of answering the question anyway.

Freedom of religion: "all sects and denominations of Christianity are placed on the same equal footing." US Supreme Court Runkle v. Winemiller (1791)

The whole quote for that is:

"By our form of gov't, the Christian religion is the established religion; and all sects and denominations of Christianity are placed on the same equal footing."


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Are you a man of the times, or a man for the times?
 


Posts: 51 | Posted: 12:54 PM on December 31, 2002 | IP
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Note you haven't quoted a single case since the 1900s. The Warren court has since overruled most of these statements. Your quote by Mr. Madison further demonstrates our point. Madison wanted all of us to GOVERN OURSELVES by the principles of the 10 commandments. By our own decision, not by governmental decree. In the late 1800s, a constitutional amendment was introduced to acknowledge that the government was based on Jesus Christ. It failed miserably.
If you want to be hyper techincal about it, the govt. was founded on the principles of a) John Locke and the social contract b) Judiasm. We had them first. You adapted them. Don't claim them as your own original work.


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 2:16 PM on December 31, 2002 | IP
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dsadevil,

I will ask you again to provide the names of the cases that overturned those which I have quoted. I never intended to claim that we are a "Christian Nation" just that we were founded on Christian principles.

James Bulman says of Locke:

"Locke's philosophy by no means required a Deistic interpretation Locke himself certainly not holding any such interpretation!

"The Bible is the book, Locke said, 'Wither, at last, every one must have their recourse, to verify that of it, which he finds elsewhere.

"[Locke was] made to order for those who sought to defend the rights of the American colonists in the years preceding the American Revolution. On the one hand, his political thought was thoroghly acceptable in America because it was a restatement of familiar principles - principles forged by the heirs of John Calvin during the English Civil War and long the common property of most of colonial America. On the other hand, as the chief apologist of the Glorious Revolution of 1688 which brought William and Mary to the English and Scottish thrones, Locke was eminently respectable."

I never attempted to claim the Christian foundation of this great nation as my "own original work."


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Are you a man of the times, or a man for the times?
 


Posts: 51 | Posted: 01:00 AM on January 1, 2003 | IP
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Here is another quote from James Madison:

"During almost fifteen centureis has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial.  What has been its fruits?  More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution."
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 08:56 AM on January 1, 2003 | IP
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And what is he saying in plain english? When there is a "National Religion" all those problems can be seen.


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Are you a man of the times, or a man for the times?
 


Posts: 51 | Posted: 12:37 PM on January 1, 2003 | IP
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I wasn't saying that christian principles are ure orignal work (they've been repeated enough times). I was saying the principles are not unique to christianity, or original to christianity. they were borrowed from judiasm. As for the cases, well lets see. Lee v. Weissman, Engel v. Vitale, Abington v. Schempf, and Lemon v. Kurtzman all are from 1960 or later, and all run directly contrary to what you said. Now, I don't know if somewhere in the cases they specifically overturn yours, but at least the lines u are citing have most definitely been overruled sub silentio.
Was Locke a devout christian? absolutely. Can his theories exist entirely independent from christianity. sure. So I still hold it to be a secular theory, as the religious part isnt necessary to uphold it.


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 3:56 PM on January 1, 2003 | IP
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None of the cases you cite overturn those from which I quoted. Too "overrule" sub silentio is really only half victory because those "overruled" case can still be used. See the course of cases, Schechter Poultry Corp. v. United States, Katzenbach v. McClung, and United States v. Lopez. Those are about the "interstate commerce clause" but it illustrates the point.

I do not know a whole ton about Locke and his theories so I will take your word.


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Are you a man of the times, or a man for the times?
 


Posts: 51 | Posted: 4:42 PM on January 1, 2003 | IP
dsadevil

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Those cases didnt overrule each other. They clarified the scope of the interstate commerce clause. But schecter mostly isnt considered valid precedent, it was the last gasp of the laissez faire court. Katzenbach and Lopez arent exclusive at all, Katzenbach basically says that a commerce related activity can be related even if it has only a tenuous relationship to interstate commerce, and Lopez said that that standard doesnt apply to a non-commerce related activity (I.E., schools).
By contrast, Engel v. Vitale and Abington v. Schempf, which was based off a seperation of church and state and the premise that christianity cannot be pushed by the govt. onto its citizens are wholly incompatible with the cases you cite. BTW, that US v. Trinity, and Runkle v. Winemiller case seems somewhat activist to me. Would you agree?


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 9:19 PM on January 1, 2003 | IP
Veria

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Patriotandproudofit,

You can change the foundation.... i mean .... even seeing same point in two different prespectives .... changes the meaning... and today we are far from where our founding faters intended us to be....


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Mother land will rise again.... mark my words... mark them
 


Posts: 32 | Posted: 11:25 PM on January 1, 2003 | IP
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Veria,

I completely agree that we are VERY far from where our founding fathers intended. The decisions made in the Federal Government today do not reflect the Christian founding I believe this country has, but I don't think a change in the use suggests a change in the foundation.

dsa,

Truly I am not out to say whether the cases I cite are or are not valid today. I am attempting to show that the foundings of this country may be found in the Christian religion (the principles came, partly, from Judiasm I will agree, but there is at least one major difference: CHRIST!). If the quotes I have provided do not show the Christian foundation of this nation please let me know.


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Are you a man of the times, or a man for the times?
 


Posts: 51 | Posted: 12:39 AM on January 2, 2003 | IP
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Patriots quotes don't even come close to showing the christian foundation of this nation.

The most convincing evidence that our government is not founded upon christianity comes from the very document that defines our nation - the United States Constitution.

If indeed our founders had aimed to found a christian republic, it would seem highly unlikely that they would have forgotten to leave out their christian intentions in the supreme law of the land.

In fact, nowhere in the Constitution do we have a single mention of christianity, god, jesus, or any supreme being.  There are only two references to religion and they both use exclusionary wording.  The 1st Amendment says "Congress shall make no laws respecting an establishment of religion...." and in Article VI, Section 3 "....no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States."
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 05:19 AM on January 2, 2003 | IP
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yes we are far from what the founding fathers wanted in at least one area...they clearly wanted us to be isolationist


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 12:30 PM on January 2, 2003 | IP
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besides patriot, to the best of my knowledge the supreme court is not the founding fathers.
The founding fathers personal beliefs are in dispute obviously. Perhaps they were devout christians. I don't know. But as guest said, it is telling that they did not decide to mention God or Christ in the constitution at any point.

Oh, and btw, what unique part of American law/culture/foundation did Christ bring that wasnt already part of Judiasm?


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 9:01 PM on January 2, 2003 | IP
Veria

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desdevil,
I thought about this and I agree.... persay we should refrase the the statement that our founding fatheres were christian to that : "This nation contains monotheistic principalse"


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Mother land will rise again.... mark my words... mark them
 


Posts: 32 | Posted: 10:36 PM on January 2, 2003 | IP
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The House Judical Committee on March 27, 1854:

"Had the people [the founding fathers], during the Revolution, a suspicion of any attempt to war against Christianity, the Revolution would have been strangled in its cradle...At the time of the adoption of the Constitution and its Amendments, the universal sentiment was that Christianity should be encouraged, buy not any one sect."

2 months later:

"The great vital and conservative element in our system is the belief of our people in the pure doctrines and the divine truths of the Gospel of Jesus Christ."


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Are you a man of the times, or a man for the times?
 


Posts: 51 | Posted: 12:35 AM on January 3, 2003 | IP
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"Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and tortuous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness with which more than half the bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we call it the word of a demon than the word of god.  It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize humankind."  Thomas Paine

"Question with boldness even the existence of god; because if there be one, he must approve the homage of reason rather than that of blindfolded fear."  Thomas Jefferson

 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 01:47 AM on January 3, 2003 | IP
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 What absolutly ill-advised quotes. To think, God still loves them!  
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 09:33 AM on January 3, 2003 | IP
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Congress in 1854 does not equal founding fathers. Congress in 1854 = oppurtunistic politicians trying to appease a fractured nation.

I think that we agree that the founding fathers themselves were, to say the least, conflicted in their religious views. So we need to go by what is written and not written in the constitution itself.


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 3:00 PM on January 3, 2003 | IP
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I think th e fathers of the religion is Moses Jehovahs witnesses Abrham Muslim and Issac Abeliever in the prophecy of Christ. Jacob a fighter for the right of all religion to put the same faith to gether
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 4:59 PM on January 25, 2003 | IP
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No that is a lie from hell. Every patriarch in the Bible served the only true God. Jesus Christ. There is no other gods before Jesus, because He is the creator of the universe. He is going to judge those who will not acnowledge Him. Every knee shall bow.
                      Benjamin
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 3:17 PM on February 4, 2003 | IP
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Hey, guess what. God is mentioned in the Constitution. And when I tell you where your going to come up with an excuse that I've already heard, but I'm going to tell it to you anyway.

"Done in Convention by Unanimous Consentof the States present the Sevevteenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord on thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven..."
-Constitution of the United States of America Article VII

Now let me ask you, who is "Lord" refering to?

-FP
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 4:47 PM on February 9, 2003 | IP
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The principle founders of the United States did not practice Christianity, but esoteric Islam.  All of them held rank in Masonic Lodges (masjid, or mosque, means "lodge" in Arabic), which have their origin in the apostate Knights of the Temple of Jerusalem, which secretly converted to Islam during the Crusades.  For their apostacy, the pope had their leaders killed and drove the organization underground.  To this day, the Roman Church will excommunicate any Catholic that joins the Templars- I mean the Masons.

If the founders of the USA seem contradictory in their religious persuations, know that the Masons operated by the same subterfuge used by Jesus Christ and Mohammad: give a message to the masses, then relay the inner meaning to the circle of initiates.  Masons ALWAYS take on the outer trappings of the predominant religion of the land in which they dwell, and they will even use the scriptures of that religion for their oaths within the lodge.  Needless to say, this kind of lip service does not make them adherants to that religion any more than using the generally accepted, though arbitrary, Vatican dating convention does.

I've read in a couple of your posts about how the founders came to America fleeing religious persecution.  People, the Puritans did not found the United States of America.  They settled in a small section of the land that later formed one of the states, and then mercifully faded into obscurity and irrelevence long before the founding of the USA.

We should also note that America's founders (and even the Puritans) did not have the anal attitude towards drugs we Americans have today.  George Washington spent a lot of his adult life high on bud.  His contemporaries knew he inhaled and had no problem electing him to the highest office in the land.
 


Posts: 4 | Posted: 11:44 PM on March 30, 2003 | IP
    
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