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EMyers

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Of spirit, I thought that was understood.


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 3:05 PM on January 15, 2006 | IP
Blasphemy

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OK is spirit mass or matter? Or what is it if it isn't either?

I understand supernatural to be illogical. That is, there isn't anything such as ghosts or elves or unicorns...or gods...


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Blasphemy-->"JEHOVAH, JEHOVAH!"
Don't make me sic my god on you!
There is no hell. There is only France
-Frank Zappa
 


Posts: 95 | Posted: 09:18 AM on January 16, 2006 | IP
EMyers

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So, in your little universe, you categorically deny the possible existance of anything you can't see, touch, smell, etc.  In that case, I assume that anything that you've never experienced does not exist.  There was nothing in the world before the day you were born.  Nothing will exist after you die.  Nothing exists that you haven't seen (you are actually standing on a very small section of land that is the entire planet).  All those pretty pictures of space are just something someone made up to fool you (you know, like the Bible).  It must be comforting.


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 09:37 AM on January 16, 2006 | IP
Blasphemy

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Little Universe? That sounds emotional.

I however, did not say any of what you alleged I said. And you have not made a rebuttal statement which is a valid arguement.

All you have done is taken what I've said and expotentially multiplied it to include every situation, as if I am unable to discern between diiffering situations.


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Blasphemy-->"JEHOVAH, JEHOVAH!"
Don't make me sic my god on you!
There is no hell. There is only France
-Frank Zappa
 


Posts: 95 | Posted: 09:55 AM on January 16, 2006 | IP
EMyers

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Not at all.  You equated non-material to not-existent.  Read through your own posts before going off on a tangent.


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 12:39 PM on January 16, 2006 | IP
Blasphemy

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At first I asked if god was mass or matter, to which you replied "spirit".


Then I asked you if spirit was mass or matter.

You didn't answer.

I then asked "what if it's neither?"

You didn't answer that either.

I then stated that I use the term illogical when I refer to gods, ghosts, unicorns, and elves, just so you would know what I find illogical

What tangent have I gone off on? I am simply asking you some questions, (Or anyone else out there).

It seems to me you go off on a tangent with the assumptions you make.

You accuse me of equating non-material to non-existant, but these were your words. I equated nothing to nothing, I asked a question.

You are obviously unable to take part in discussion without reverting to accusations and spin. Just like the Fox news folks.

You should harness all that negative emotion and use it to answer my questions.

Can you just answer the question?




-------
Blasphemy-->"JEHOVAH, JEHOVAH!"
Don't make me sic my god on you!
There is no hell. There is only France
-Frank Zappa
 


Posts: 95 | Posted: 3:42 PM on January 16, 2006 | IP
EMyers

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Direct quote from a Blasphemy post...

Not made of matter = non-existant.

Another direct quote from a Blasphemy post...

You accuse me of equating non-material to non-existant, but these were your words.

Gee.  I can't argue against logic.  I give up.


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 6:23 PM on January 16, 2006 | IP
Blasphemy

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ooow ya got me.

I'm new at being a mythical god myself, so I haven't had time to create a flood, an exodus, a burning bush, etc. These things take time. Don't rush me, I've just finished a new creation and I'm currently setting the trap to make SINNERS out of everyone. France, I've got an entire planet full of people I'm going to condemn to everlasting shivering.

Since I AM an all-powerful mythic being, I will throw you in a lake of ice-cream to shiver for eternity if you do not answer my questions. Just as I will do to my new creation as soon as the snail I sent tricks them into eating the little fudgie things and the sprinkles (WHICH BY THE WAY I HAVE FORBIDDEN SINCE YOU WERE IN DIAPERS!)

I am not so forgiving as your god either. I wipe out entire planets, not just populations, so don't piss me off with some flaky fairy tale of an answer.

Otherwise I will send my elves mounted on their Unicorns from the four winds and I will smite you and I will say "YAAA! I AM WHO I AM. I am the MAN! I smite small little people!! Ha Ha !! I do it without even blinking an eyelash, and ya know what. I FRIGGIN LOVE IT! All these tiny puny little creations of mine keep multiplying, and I keep slapping them with death warrants. Does that scare you? I thought so.

That ought to put the fear of me into you!!


Now that you have shown me to be an abomination to your god, (cause I must have lied), can we start with a clean slate?

Mind you, I'm now an all powerful mythological being so if you say..lest you even think of me in a way which I do not find fashionable, you will surely go into the lake of ice-cream, and there will be no warm fire to warm you up.


OK,

Now, how about answering my questions. BEFORE I SMITE YOU!


Yours Truly,

The NEW god.


-------
Blasphemy-->"JEHOVAH, JEHOVAH!"
Don't make me sic my god on you!
There is no hell. There is only France
-Frank Zappa
 


Posts: 95 | Posted: 9:19 PM on January 16, 2006 | IP
the_general

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Alex youre statement of god in the first post is absolutely true/logical/right. Fallingupwards, youre examples make no sense at all.Faith is the only way believers can prove themselves, for with god/s if you dont use faith it just sounds DUMB.

btw, i can prove god wrong withouts fallacys or watever they r. theres no proof god exists, but there is proof of evolution. the bible does not count, it could be a lie. and if god has always existed, then why didnt we always belive in god before christianity and judaism. in the bible someone ALWAYS worshipped God, but in history judaism is not the first religon. thus proving the bible a lie. thus proving god is a made up figure.

Plus if adam and eve were the first people and they had children those children would be mentally handicapped as would the children afterward, so according to the bible we're all mentally handicapped.

if people say the bible changed from Gods original then it is not a reliable source to prove his exsistence.

to say god works in mysterious ways is often used to say why a supremely kind God(though His own bible constantly disproves this)would allow ones tragic death, still leaving one to wonder y he wont just say y the person died. it is like saying there is a reason but we dont get to know it. Which lead to these questions. y does he work in mysterious ways? Why is He trying to hide a secret? Can we truly trust him?

now i willtry to modify alex's original statement in a way that believers will hav to accept while leaving it the same.
1-According to thesists, God is all powerful.
2-According to thesists, He can lift any rock.
3-According to thesists and the previous statements, there is no rock too big for God to lift due to his being all powerful.
4-Due to his being able to lift any rock, God cannot create a rock he cannot lift.
5-Because God cannot make a rock he cannot lift, there is something God is incapable of doing.
6-Because there is something God is incapable of doing, God is, in fact, NOT all powerful.
7-Due to his believers definitions, God, that is the all powerful being whom is proven not all powerful, is non-existent because being all powerful means you can do anything but there is something God cannot do. if u noticed all i rly did was more thoroughly explain wat has been already said.

(Edited by the_general 7/17/2006 at 04:54 AM).


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Religon=Opium of the Masses, except for Buddhism, thats about inner peace.

F.Y.I. to the Catholics/Christians...JESUS SAID LOVE ALL EQUALLY, HE NEVER SAID GAY PEOPLE ARE THE EXCEPTION!!!

IN AMERICA RELIGON IS NOT A GOOD REASON FOR ANY LAW!!! Period.

The idea of marriage was made in a time where being gay would be a good reason to torture you to death.

Before you say it im straight, but believe it or not im also, God forbid, tolerant.

If being gay is a choice then you accept being straight is too.

If God existed and couldn't accept gay people because he doesn't like them (guess where sins come from!) then he's imposing HIS beliefs on YOU!

If you aren't religous you can still be moral.

Where in the Bible does it say being gay is wrong, cuz if it wasnt in the first draft whats the big deal. Yes the Bible HAS been revised.

Race-does not matter
Religon-does not matter
Sex-does not matter
Sexuality-shouldn't have to matter, cuz it's not like whites don't befriend blacks , Christians don't befriend aetheists, and Men dont befriend Women, so...why make being straight or gay matter? Wanna know what does matter? We're alive. Shouldn't that be more than enough?
 


Posts: 12 | Posted: 04:02 AM on July 17, 2006 | IP
jack-frost

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ok....
I read some of these notes and i'm disapointed... Most of these replys are straight from the horses mouth.(excuse the term)

I have no religon never have never will. I agrre that religon is nothing more than a belief, and gives peoplle a reason for living and dieing. People shouldn't need a book to tell them how to live and treat others it common sense. I also believe that religon does not bring about peace but the opposit. Religon seperates us as a race as a country and the world in general it does not bring us closer togeather as a race but pushes us even further apart, just look at the world around you dont u see it!!?!?!?

live and let live, love and let love whoever u are, why do you need a book to tell you that?
 


Posts: 3 | Posted: 11:38 AM on July 30, 2006 | IP
EMyers

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So you are saying that all the "non-religious" people are living in peace and harmony?  Wow, I must've missed that little part of the world.  Where are you from?


-------
"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 6:34 PM on July 30, 2006 | IP
submitmj

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This forum is about arguments with proof about the existence of GOD. Well, there, in fact, is proof of the existence of GOD and it is mathematical in nature. Not only that, the proof is shockingly powerful (if you take the time read past the first few sentences).  Click the link below and see the proof. If you are able to keep your personal biases out of the way, you may see something you never expected was possible.
Click here for the solid proof.

Bye the way, after you read the above article. I want to let you know that this same phenomena has now been found throughout the physical universe.

Peace

 


Posts: 10 | Posted: 6:08 PM on October 16, 2007 | IP
dmonk

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I'll add my own from scratch as a first post because I would prefer to change the original. Edits in Brackets:

1. [Let a subset A of] Theists define God as all-powerful.
2. Therefore, [this] God can lift any size rock.
3. Therefore, there can be no rock too big for God to lift.
4. Therefore, God cannot create a rock too big for him to lift [since no such rock may exist]
5. What may or may not exist is, due to omnipotence, may be changed by God.
6. Therefore, God has created a framework of what may exist.
7. An infinite framework would be beyond the scope of rational explanation or discussion.
8. Therefore,
a) The framework is impossible to discuss and there is no conclusion.
OR
b) The framework is limited and God's power is unknown due to that God may or not be able to chance what exists.

Hence, omnipotence is inconceivable and is therefore the subset of theists A may not posit that God is all powerful and God's power is unknown.

 


Posts: 6 | Posted: 7:30 PM on July 25, 2008 | IP
aigoo

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2nd law of thermodynamics is a law that has always been found to be true in this universe. there has never been a documented scientific phenomena evading this law within this universe. Thus, the big bang is the most likely explanation for our current state of being.

The steady state theory (infinite universe theory) was long shut out by Steven Hawkings along with the discovery of cosmic background radiation being in complete homogeneity suggesting a beginning point.

Case in point, majority (and i mean majority) of modern day theoretical physicist believe in the big bang. If science isn't as logical as this world gets, then I don't know what is.

Thus, premise 1: the Universe had a beginning. (in accordance to the big bang theory)

Premise 2: is that God is all powerful, and infinite. (as given by the bible)

Premise 3: An all powerful infinite being is not bound to any set of laws.

Using these premises consider two proofs

proof 1:

Premise 1: all things have a beginning in world we live in.
Premise 2: all beginnings have a cause in the set of laws this universe is bound to (including the universe itself)
Premise 3: The Universe had a beginning
Premise 4: The Universe must have had a cause.
Premise 5: The cause must be something not bounded by this Universe (in concordance to premise 1) .
Premise 6: God (or an infinite omnipotent being) is the only thing we have defined to be not bounded by this Universe.
Premise 7: God was the cause of this Universe.
Premise 8: A cause exists.
Conclusion: God exists.

I admit, there may be some fallacy in my logic, for I do not believe logic alone can prove the existence of God, but this is food for thought ^^.

As for Alex's reasoning.

Premise 1: God is all powerful and infinite
Premise 2: An infinite being is not bound by laws
Premise 3: God is not bound by law of logic
Conclusion: God can create a boulder he cannot lift (with concordance to premise 3)

I believe premise 2 is a necessary one to include into Alex's stream of reasoning, or else the proof (or in his case disproof) does not hold.

(Edited by aigoo 11/30/2009 at 03:26 AM).

(Edited by aigoo 11/30/2009 at 03:28 AM).
 


Posts: 1 | Posted: 03:25 AM on November 30, 2009 | IP
itisalsowrittenthat

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1. Theists (maybe not Jews) define God as all-powerful.

YES! this is in the Bible

But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible. (Matthew 19:26)



2. Therefore, God can lift any size rock.

YES! (Matthew 19:26)



3. Therefore, there can be no rock too big for God to lift.

YES! (Matthew 19:26)


4. Therefore, God cannot create a rock too big for him to lift.

where does it say in the Bible?




5. Therefore, there is something God cannot do.


YES! God cannot lie.

In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began; (Titus 1:2)



6. Therefore, God is not all powerful.

Not true!


7. Therefore God does not exist (per the definition given by its believers).

This is your own definition

Seest thou a man wise in his own conceit? there is more hope of a fool than of him.
(Proverbs 26:12)


-------
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. (Matthew 24:14)
 


Posts: 3 | Posted: 02:04 AM on March 11, 2010 | IP
Zoetherat

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I think philosophical arguments for or against the existence of God are usually crap.

1. Theists (maybe not Jews) define God as all-powerful.
2. Therefore, God can lift any size rock.
3. Therefore, there can be no rock too big for God to lift.
4. Therefore, God cannot create a rock too big for him to lift.
5. Therefore, there is something God cannot do.
6. Therefore, God is not all powerful.
7. Therefore God does not exist (per the definition given by its believers).


The argument here is that omnipotence would cause a logical contradiction/ absurdity. I see no flaw in it. But it’s assuming a definition of God that’s completely omnipotent, and one rebuttal I’ve heard to that is that God can only do anything that’s logically possible (redefining what is meant by “omnipotent”). I consider that a disingenuous and lame answer (to say that there’s a being that can do absolutely anything except the things that he can’t do), but it’s the best rebuttal I’ve come across other than the “there are some things ppl just can’t understand” answer.


 


Posts: 48 | Posted: 7:44 PM on June 20, 2010 | IP
Zoetherat

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1. What ever begins to exist has a cause for its coming into being.
2. The universe began to exist.
3. Therefore the universe has a cause for coming into being.


This is the Kalam cosmological argument for the existence of God. It’s complete crap. Both premises are mere assumptions, and it relies on a disingenuous use of wording.

In response to the first premise- Something that exists logically requires a cause ONLY IF THERE WAS A POINT IN TIME IN WHICH IT DID NOT EXIST. If there was no point in time in which it didn’t exist, then a cause isn’t logically necessary. Now, I’m pretty weak on science, but to my understanding, time is considered to be a kind of dimension of space (space- time). And space- time is part of the universe. So if the universe is all that exists, and if it has a beginning, then there was no time in which it didn’t exist. Hence, it does not logically require a cause.

In response to the second premise- It’s an assumption to state that the universe began to exist.

Some supporters of Kalam point to the big bang, but for all we know, there’s some kind of multi- verse outside of our universe. Who knows?

Other supporters of Kalam argue that the universe must have a beginning because if there were an infinite past, then time would never have transversed the past to get to the present. The fallacy in this argument is that it subtly implies that infinity has something which, by definition, it doesn’t have: a beginning. The argument could be reworded like this; “if you were to start at the beginning of an infinite past, then you would never arrive at the present”. That’s fallacious.

An infinite past or the beginning of uncaused time may seem counterintuitive and impossible to wrap our minds around, but there’s also no reason why either of them can’t be true. And “God” is not a better explanation. As I’ve stated in another thread, saying that God/ the supernatural did something is epistemologically no different from saying that magic did it; it can be used to explain absolutely anything, by absolutely anyone, while explaining absolutely nothing. It’s an argument from ignorance. And when you’re ignorant about something, the best response is “I don’t know”; not to come up with a supernatural explanation for it.  

The last thing I take issue with Kalam over is their idea of things “beginning to exist”. Everything in the universe that we can point to as beginning to exist is actually just a rearrangement of pre existing materials. Nothing can be truly shown to have “begun to exist” in the same sense that theists believe the universe did. So when they say that “everything that begins to exist has a cause”, what they’re really saying is “some things within the universe have been rearranged by the laws of nature”. That first premise has been worded in such a way as to make their argument appear stronger than it actually is.  

 


Posts: 48 | Posted: 7:46 PM on June 20, 2010 | IP
esglumac

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Well, good cannot exist without  evil and visa-versa...

(Edited by esglumac 6/26/2011 at 5:00 PM).


-------
Eleanor S. Glumac
 


Posts: 2 | Posted: 4:53 PM on June 26, 2011 | IP
Theist

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A *REAL* Answer to Alexander's question:


1. Theists (maybe not Jews) define God as all-powerful.
2. Therefore, God can lift any size rock.
3. Therefore, there can be no rock too big for God to lift.
4. Therefore, God cannot create a rock too big for him to lift.
5. Therefore, there is something God cannot do.
6. Therefore, God is not all powerful.
7. Therefore God does not exist (per the definition given by its believers).


The most widely accepted definition of God (yes, I know this is an ad populum argument) is a being of which no greater can exist or be conceived.

That is, no greater being can exist; no greater being can even be conceived of.

So, then; think of the greatest being possible; think of one greater, and so on.
When you reach infinity, and the end of all possiblities, you have reached the definition
of God.


In answer then, to Alexander's question:
This list of statements is problematic in two ways.  The first way is a problem
of miscategorization.  The second is in redefining words from one part of the
statement to the next.

In the first part of the statement, Alex states God is 'all-powerful' - as in can
do ANYThing.  He then goes on to prove there's something God can't do, and that,
by the definition, God is not all-powerful.

But the blatant fallacy behind this illogic is clear:  God cannot be something
greater than Himself, or He is not God.  This is not a limitation of ABILITY,
but a limitation of the definition of God: A being of which no greater exists
or can be conceived.  God CANNOT create a rock too big for Himself to lift.

But God can still be all-powerful, if all powerful means "do anything within the
realm of possibility."

Alex's statement takes the idea of 'can't do' as being a prohibition against "all-powerful,"
wrongly assuming that all-powerful means ANYTHING, including what is BY DEFINITION
impossible.

If God could create something greater than Himself, He wouldn't be God; He might be *A* god,
but by the definition, He wouldn't be THE God.  He is the greatest possible.  A rock too
heavy for Him to lift cannot exist.  He cannot create it, nor could He lift it. Such
an object is a logical impossibility.


So to summarize:  Alex's proposition suffers from two problems.  The first is in
redefining the meaning of 'all-powerful' within the text, and the second is attempting
to circumvent an attribute of God by circular, flawed logic.

Any notes??
 


Posts: 1 | Posted: 1:19 PM on September 27, 2012 | IP
vBlueSki

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Quote from Maynard at 8:26 PM on January 4, 2003 :
i realy dont think there are logical arguments for god.  i mean, i cant really explain why i belief in him i just do.


And that's what I don't understand with any religion. You just feel like it's true so you believe. IF I feel santa claus is real is he? At least give us a reason hahaha





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Deny Everything
 


Posts: 19 | Posted: 11:42 AM on December 5, 2012 | IP
    
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