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dsadevil

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Hey Sakata, this is for you first.
If mother teresa converted to hinduism on her death bed, while in full mental control, having done all her good deeds, would she go to heaven or hell? Obviously hypothetical of course...


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 3:27 PM on October 16, 2002 | IP
Sakata

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That would be for and omnipotent God to decide, not me


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No time for mediocrity.

People call me a Bible-Thumping reactionist ...and I'm proud to bear the name.
 


Posts: 293 | Posted: 7:33 PM on October 17, 2002 | IP
dsadevil

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cop out. I'm asking for your opinion on what you think God would do. You aren't afraid to express what you think God believes on the issue of Gay rights, so this should be no different. Its a legitimate theological question, you just feel uncomfortable answering it because you know your religious beliefs (which would dictate that she wouldn't go to heaven) are in conflict with your moral ones (which state that anyone as just as mother teresa deserves to go to heaven). Or not? Answer the question.


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 8:11 PM on October 17, 2002 | IP
Sakata

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I believe homosexuals cant go to heaven because God says "Do not practice homosexuality; it is a detestable sin. " -Leviticus 18:22  ,  It does not say if mother terisa converts to hinduism on her deathbed she cant come to heaven  Personally I believe no, she wouldnt.  If someone could be swayed so easily, and just decide to choose another religon at the last minute, it leads one to think that their faith wasnt very strong in the first place.  "Draw close to God, and God will draw close to you" -James 4:8  if someone spends their whole life denying themselves and serving others for God like she did, God will draw close to them, so if she suddenly decided that she didnt believe in God, the only possiblity would be that she never was really trying to served God in the first place so what reason would God have to let her in heaven?



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No time for mediocrity.

People call me a Bible-Thumping reactionist ...and I'm proud to bear the name.
 


Posts: 293 | Posted: 8:36 PM on October 17, 2002 | IP
dsadevil

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ok, thank you. That's what I wanted to hear. And similarly, that's why I will never accept Christianity, because no religion that wouldn't allow someone as kind and good as a mother Teresa into heaven isn't worthy of my allegience.
My religious beliefs can be summed up by a Jewish Teaching:
"It is our belief that the rightous of all nations are worthy of immortality. There are many mountains, and all of them reach for the stars."


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 11:26 PM on October 17, 2002 | IP
Sakata

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That is a little streching it, I never said that I knew what God would do, or that mother Terisa is going to hell.  And Dsa, it is not whether the religon it worthy of you, but are you worthy of it?  I know I am not worthy of the grace God shows me.  All paths lead to God, yes, all will stand before him one day (or tremble)  but is where you go when you get there that matters  


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No time for mediocrity.

People call me a Bible-Thumping reactionist ...and I'm proud to bear the name.
 


Posts: 293 | Posted: 12:29 AM on October 18, 2002 | IP
thistownwilleatu

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Come on Sakata, do you honestly believe homosexuals cant go to heaven?!  If you'll remember, homosexuality isn't the only sin in the bible.  It's no more or less of a sin than the lies, lust, self-righteousness that you and me and everyone else commit everday.  In the eyes of God, sin is sin, it's just that it's been drilled into your head your whole life that homosexuality is worse, for the simple fact that the other sins hit to close to home in our Christian brothers to talk about.  If you say that homosexuals are going to hell, than me and you are to.


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"The greatest evil is not done in those sordid dens of evil that Dickens loved to paint ... but is conceived and ordered (moved, seconded, carried and minuted) in clear, carpeted, warmed, well-lighted offices, by quiet men with white collars and cut fingernails and smooth-shaven cheeks who do not need to raise their voices." - Thomas Merton

"I thank my God for every remembrance of you." - Paul
 


Posts: 341 | Posted: 02:24 AM on October 18, 2002 | IP
dsadevil

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and religion being a concious choice, I have every right to ask that it obey a minimum standard of decency.

I don't think I need to add anything to thistownwilleatu's phenomonal post though on that topic....


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 1:12 PM on October 18, 2002 | IP
Sakata

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I am not saying one sin is above another, the fact does remain that people living a homosexual life-style are living in sin, christians like myself and you are sinning to, but that is where confession and forgiveness come in.  I believe if someone is gay not by choice, and they dont live a homosexual lifestyle then they are no different than you or me.  Bottom line is christains sin, and work to eradicate the sin from their lives, homosexuals sin, and say its ok.


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No time for mediocrity.

People call me a Bible-Thumping reactionist ...and I'm proud to bear the name.
 


Posts: 293 | Posted: 7:01 PM on October 18, 2002 | IP
Sakata

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"For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord."   -Romans 6:23


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No time for mediocrity.

People call me a Bible-Thumping reactionist ...and I'm proud to bear the name.
 


Posts: 293 | Posted: 7:02 PM on October 18, 2002 | IP
Cool-Hand-Dave

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sakata
you have lied before?  will you ever lie again?  have you lusted?  will you ever lust again?  have you ever thought a bad thought?  will you ever think one again?  i think my point is made there, so are you going to hell?  by what you are saying, then the answer is yes.  yes to yourself and yes to all living things.  what if a homosexual lives a perfectly "Christian" life except for the fact that they are gay, will God not forgive them for that one sin they commited so many times just as he forgives you so many times for lying?  can homosexuals be incapable of believing in God or in Jesus Christ?  if your answer to that question is yes then it is only because Christians like you and me have made them so.  


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Cool Hand Dave
 


Posts: 134 | Posted: 12:51 AM on October 21, 2002 | IP
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dude quit giving her a hard time...there is a difference btwn living a life of sin and sinning as a normal christian might.everyone does sin but not always intentionally. its like the difference between being an alcoholic and being drunk once a week. The alcoholic does it often and the casual drinker just sometimes does it...im just using this as a reference im not saying it is okay for either one but its like a metaphor to compare the two issues
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 01:02 AM on October 21, 2002 | IP
thistownwilleatu

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Alexander, get in here, you know more about this than us.


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"The greatest evil is not done in those sordid dens of evil that Dickens loved to paint ... but is conceived and ordered (moved, seconded, carried and minuted) in clear, carpeted, warmed, well-lighted offices, by quiet men with white collars and cut fingernails and smooth-shaven cheeks who do not need to raise their voices." - Thomas Merton

"I thank my God for every remembrance of you." - Paul
 


Posts: 341 | Posted: 09:34 AM on October 21, 2002 | IP
Cool-Hand-Dave

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i think that God just might look at the occasional drunk and a full-fledged alcoholic in just about the same way.  and i wasn't trying to give sakata a hard time.  i was trying to make a point that i feel is very relevant.  most of the time people can relate to things better if they can take personal experiences and put them to use.  but i must be off to class now, so i wish you all "good day"


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Cool Hand Dave
 


Posts: 134 | Posted: 09:46 AM on October 21, 2002 | IP
Sakata

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I know I have already said this in a fourm somewhere so here is the half-assed version.  All christains sin, the difference being we ask for forgiveness and strive to be pure.  I definatly believe if a homosexual doesnt live a homosexual life-style they are no different than any other christain, bottom line is, christains sin and repent and try to do better next time, homosexuals(people living in that lifestyle) sin and say its okay.


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No time for mediocrity.

People call me a Bible-Thumping reactionist ...and I'm proud to bear the name.
 


Posts: 293 | Posted: 9:44 PM on October 21, 2002 | IP
thistownwilleatu

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Ok fair enough.  My point is that sin is a very real and present part of every christian's life.  Every Christian sins.  Homosexuality is a sin.  Is it impossible for gays to be Christians?  

 


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"The greatest evil is not done in those sordid dens of evil that Dickens loved to paint ... but is conceived and ordered (moved, seconded, carried and minuted) in clear, carpeted, warmed, well-lighted offices, by quiet men with white collars and cut fingernails and smooth-shaven cheeks who do not need to raise their voices." - Thomas Merton

"I thank my God for every remembrance of you." - Paul
 


Posts: 341 | Posted: 12:53 AM on October 22, 2002 | IP
Sakata

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no, but someone intentionaly living a life-style of sin is not living for God, and homosexuality is a sin so...


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No time for mediocrity.

People call me a Bible-Thumping reactionist ...and I'm proud to bear the name.
 


Posts: 293 | Posted: 01:08 AM on October 22, 2002 | IP
Cool-Hand-Dave

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i'm sure that every christian "knows" another christian that has some sin in their life that they are addicted to and have tried to justify.  be that lying, etc, etc.  christians continually live in a state of sin, homosexuals continually live in a state of sin, according to christians.  so seeing as the only difference is sexual preference, is it impossible for gays to be christians or go to heaven if they believe in Christ.  After all He did say that all who truly believe in Him as the son of God will join Him in heaven, correct?


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Cool Hand Dave
 


Posts: 134 | Posted: 01:08 AM on October 22, 2002 | IP
Sakata

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Christains sin, Christains also ask for forgivness instead of just trying to justify it( I understand that not everyone does this but as a majority this is how it is suppose to be), Homosexuals dont.  Your passage is true but He also says  "...what's the use of saying you have faith if you don't prove it by your actions? That kind of faith can't save anyone." -James 2:14



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No time for mediocrity.

People call me a Bible-Thumping reactionist ...and I'm proud to bear the name.
 


Posts: 293 | Posted: 01:17 AM on October 22, 2002 | IP
thistownwilleatu

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Yes or No:  All homosexuals are going to burn in hell.


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"The greatest evil is not done in those sordid dens of evil that Dickens loved to paint ... but is conceived and ordered (moved, seconded, carried and minuted) in clear, carpeted, warmed, well-lighted offices, by quiet men with white collars and cut fingernails and smooth-shaven cheeks who do not need to raise their voices." - Thomas Merton

"I thank my God for every remembrance of you." - Paul
 


Posts: 341 | Posted: 01:25 AM on October 22, 2002 | IP
Sakata

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Practice a homosexual lifestyle: yes

Are homosexual but dont live as a homosexual: No


-------
No time for mediocrity.

People call me a Bible-Thumping reactionist ...and I'm proud to bear the name.
 


Posts: 293 | Posted: 01:29 AM on October 22, 2002 | IP
AlexanderTheGreat

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Man, I can't wait until they find out Jesus was gay...Ok, anyways, I have decided I think Judaism is pretty cool. I mean, I am jewish by heritage, but nobody in my family believes. But Judaism, and probably most religions besides Christianity, are inclusive. I just wonder what kind of God cares more about who I fall in love with than how much effort I put into helping others/improving the world. Sakata, don't you have any values of your own? Why did you choose this religion (I know u will say you didn't choose it, but rather it chose you or something equally corny...)? What if your parents had given u up for adoption and you were raised by a Muslim family, or an agnostic family, or God help us...an atheist same-sex couple? You would be screwed!!! Oh no, let me guess, a person as destined for salvation as you would "find" Jesus no matter where you were, right? Would if where you were was an island off of Madagascar where you never even heard of Jesus?? It's so arbitrary. You know my friend (the same stupid one who thought there was something about Solomon in the Bible) who is Christian said something to me once. He said, "I feel real confused sometimes. I love my friends, like you, but schooling tells me you won't make it to heaven. But then, Heaven is supposed to be a place where you are totally happy. How can I be totally happy in Heaven without my friends there?" Okay, I know, not a logical argument, but it was sweet anyways. By the way, whoever asked me to way in on this, I don't know why. I am the farthest thing from an expert on religion. I am an expert on sinning though...and Sakata, isn't lust a sin? even if I didn't act on my homosexual orientation, I would still be in a state of perpetual sin, wouldn't I, because I was constantly lusting for Leonardo Dicaprio (mmm, he is such a hottie)?


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Alex
 


Posts: 292 | Posted: 09:22 AM on October 22, 2002 | IP
AlexanderTheGreat

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by the way, I can't help it if people think my comment about jesus being gay is blasphemous. To me, it would not be an insult to jesus if theoretically he was gay, but I know to many it would. oh, and I think Mother Teresa is a sweetie...


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Alex
 


Posts: 292 | Posted: 09:28 AM on October 22, 2002 | IP
dsadevil

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once again we're off on a tangent.

Anyway, wahoo for Jews! The original monotheists take one swing voter (yes, Alex, I realize this isn't a conversion, but we like to be loved).


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 8:22 PM on October 22, 2002 | IP
Sakata

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You assume that I am christian because I was raised that way Alex, but as I have said in a different forum, I used to be wiccan/gothic, emptyness drove me to suicide, God saved me when no one else could, long story short I owe him my life, I will obay whatever he tells me because I trust him with all my heart and I know he knows what is best.  I cannot say what would have happend to me if I was raised in another familiy, I dont pretend to understand, I walk by faith, not by sight. As for your lust comment, when you put your trust in the Lord, there is no sin you cannot overcome.


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No time for mediocrity.

People call me a Bible-Thumping reactionist ...and I'm proud to bear the name.
 


Posts: 293 | Posted: 7:56 PM on October 23, 2002 | IP
AlexanderTheGreat

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How did God save you exactly? Too bad he didn't save all those other people, I guess they were just compost on its way anyways (hmmm, greatest cause of violent death for teenagers is suicide, wow, you must be real special, you must have a key role in the cosmos...just egoism). My brother attempted suicide, and I believe it was doctors pumping his stomach, not God. I hate religion and I hate God and I hate that word faith more than any other word in te English language and I wish someday all religious beleif institutionalized or otherwise will be eradicated and people like you will realize how arrogant and absurd your "faith" is and learn to use logic. You live in a dream world and it is sickening. Normally I wouldn't mind, but your dream world beliefs DO oppress me whether you personally do or not. Your "faith" is insidious and it is constantly making life worse for other people. Take a hint. Go the way of the dodo bird.


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Alex
 


Posts: 292 | Posted: 10:34 PM on October 23, 2002 | IP
thistownwilleatu

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Wow.  Die, Sakata, die.  I like you a lot Alexander...and to a certain extent I think I know how you feel (as much as a straight Christian can understand), but that's just bitterness.  


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"The greatest evil is not done in those sordid dens of evil that Dickens loved to paint ... but is conceived and ordered (moved, seconded, carried and minuted) in clear, carpeted, warmed, well-lighted offices, by quiet men with white collars and cut fingernails and smooth-shaven cheeks who do not need to raise their voices." - Thomas Merton

"I thank my God for every remembrance of you." - Paul
 


Posts: 341 | Posted: 12:17 AM on October 24, 2002 | IP
tsmith2771

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How does Wiccian drive one to attempted suicide?  And by the way, if you really wanted to kill yourself, you would have.


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"I have no interest in making blacks equal to whites, they are of a lesser quality and this I am sure of." -Abraham Lincoln
"You don't win a war by dying for your country, you win a war by making the other person die for theirs." -General George Patton
 


Posts: 372 | Posted: 05:06 AM on October 24, 2002 | IP
madbilly

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she didnt say wicca drove her to suicide she said emptiness. Christians and every other religion has people that commit suicide due to emptiness or something...japanese school children are shinto buddhist and commit suicide all the time...a member of the FCA at my high school commited suicide.. muslims...well we all know about jihad...emptiness can be found in every religion. if a person was christian and turned pagan they could say the emptiness of christianity drove them to do it.


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my name is madbilly....what did you expect me to be happy when my name says Mad in it...
 


Posts: 451 | Posted: 10:45 AM on October 24, 2002 | IP
madbilly

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i have read studies on the difference between how men and women attempt suicide. Women usually try to commit suicide by overdosing on pills, and cutting there wrist. Men are more objective i gues you could say bc they do instant things like blow there own head off or jump off a high place. The differenc is that women leave an option to get out, if a women cut her wrist then decides not to die she could call 911 and get it fixed. men on the other hand have no way out after what they do. so yes she could have tried to commit suicide bc if she did it how most women try she left herself an option.


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my name is madbilly....what did you expect me to be happy when my name says Mad in it...
 


Posts: 451 | Posted: 10:49 AM on October 24, 2002 | IP
Sakata

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Let me get this right Alex, you want me to die because I believe in God, and you are the oppressed one... okay sure, I mean, I can see that, really.  What a better place this world would be if all those christains that go to forgin countries and feed and clothe starving childern would just all die.  If all the churches that house and feed the homeless would just burn, what a better world for all.  
  I am not going to go into my testimony in-depth with you all, its not really any of your business for starters, what basicly happend is I tryed to cut my wrists several times (never was one for upper body strength) and in the summer of my freshmen year, amist hating everyone, my family, my friends, myself,  I was sent to a small christain camp.  For the first time in my life I felt like didnt have to defend myself from everyone, and I could be who I really was.  I dont really know what happend to me, my heart was broken by the love given to me when I hated all them, I met my savior there, he has been in my heart ever since.  And there is nothing, nothing that could ever shake my faith in him.


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No time for mediocrity.

People call me a Bible-Thumping reactionist ...and I'm proud to bear the name.
 


Posts: 293 | Posted: 10:00 PM on October 24, 2002 | IP
dsadevil

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There were Jews who believed that once (not obviously in Jesus as a savior, but in the premise that their faith in God could never be shaken). Then they were sent to Nazi death camps. Their "unshakable faith" was shattered as they saw the "chosen people" being roasted alive.
Moving on...
I don't think that all christians should die. I don't think that any christians should die. But I do think this: Give me a buddhist or conservative jewish rabbi to replace all the Pat Robertsons and Jerry Falwalls of the world, and yes, the world would be a better place. Because when we (or at least Jews anyway), travel the world to help people, we don't do it by dangling a bible over their heads first and saying "yes you can have your meal, but only if you give thanks to jesus first." There is something to be said for goodness for goodness sake, and christianity in my opinion frankly doesn't feed starving children because it cares that the children are starving, it feeds them because it gives them leverage when they try and convert them. That, in my opinion, is just wrong.


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 10:20 PM on October 24, 2002 | IP
Sakata

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And I am sure you see this happen all the time in your travels to starving contries,  it surprises me you havent written a book yet with all your indepth knowledge of how missionaries work.  First of all you have no right to bad-mouth people who give up all they have a go to people living in poverty and do something while you sit at home at your computer.  Second of all, you are dead wrong, I have family who lives  in the jungles of brazil as missionaries, and I spent my summer as a missionary.  We bring people into a safe environment feed them, help them, and tell them what we stand for, if they want to know more, that is thier choice, we believe our kindness and generosity to these people does all the talking, and you know what? it works, people do not turn to Christ because they want food, people turn to Christ because someone came and gave them food when they needed it the most.


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No time for mediocrity.

People call me a Bible-Thumping reactionist ...and I'm proud to bear the name.
 


Posts: 293 | Posted: 10:41 PM on October 24, 2002 | IP
kc2gwx

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"Because when we (or at least Jews anyway), travel the world to help people, we don't do it by dangling a bible over their heads first and saying "yes you can have your meal, but only if you give thanks to jesus first."

I can see you are not a missionary, and that is a good thing. Missionarys don't do this. Many missionarys live with locals for years and gain their trust before they convert them. They give them food, and whatever help available. You are completely wrong.


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Sam, KC2GWX
 


Posts: 101 | Posted: 11:26 PM on October 24, 2002 | IP
AlexanderTheGreat

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Well of course it takes a few years. You gotta marinate the meat before you cook it. Now, Sakata, I am sorry, I honestly didn't mean Christians, or you in particular, should die. I don't want anyone to die. Sorry about that. I meant, Christianity as a concept should become extinct. That's honestly what I meant. No I get why THisTown said I was so bitter. As for jews, I don't think they are as innocent as dsdevil makes them out to be. It's hard to take that seriously when I hear about radical Israeli settlers gunning down some unarmed palestinian, or about Israel's rejection of the right to return because they want to "preserve the solidarity of the Jewish state". Has anyone read Tom Friedman's "Lexus and the Olive Tree"? Clash of old world vs. new? The biggest source of this clash in my opinion is religion. We don't need it! And finally, not to brag or anything, but the largest category of teenage suicides is gays. Must be all that pent-up guilt...or maybe frustration knowing we'll never snag Hayden Christensen. Man, I am so the dark horse on this website. I am loving it! (just kidding)


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Alex
 


Posts: 292 | Posted: 05:23 AM on October 25, 2002 | IP
dsadevil

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Of course Jews arent as innocent as I make them out to be. They have their flaws, same as everyone else (though gunning down innocent palestineans as a matter of national policy isn't one of them. That's a seperate debate). But I know for a fact that Mr. Friedman would disagree with your analysis of Israel/Palestine.
And once again, judging from what I know about christian missionaries to America, the Amazon, Africa, etc., the choice given was "convert, or we kill you/dont feed you/burn you" etc.. Christian missionaries, though perhaps some dont do this, as a whole dont have a great reputation. Kindness and generousity? Sure, just ask an Aztec, or native american, or jew, or any other group that has been killed/maimed/colonized by these all-good missionaries.

Sakata, you say that people turn to Christ because christians came and gave them food when they needed it most. But that isn't your motivation at all...its just a happy side effect yes?


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 3:09 PM on October 25, 2002 | IP
Sakata

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So, according to your arguement Dsa, because white people killed black people in the civil rights movement, no white person now should be trusted?  I assume you are reffering to the crusades in your anamosity towards christian missionarys.  I dont know what was up with people during those times, it is totaly outragous, but if any christian missionaries today did anything romotly close to "kill you/dont feed you/burn you" they would be looked at as nothing but terrorists by the christian foundations they get their support from.  I worked for a mission as I said, under the American Missionary Fellowship, they had representatives dropping in about every 5 minutes checking on what we are doing and taking mission statements, there is no way that missionaries as a whole today do any of the horrible acts that you accuse them of,  if a mission ever did anything that steps out of line, all their funding would be dropped.  Maybe you should go visit some of the people who have missionarys that live with them, and help them plant food, before you go making broad assumtions of thier reputation.  Our motivation is to serve Christ, this includes feeding them, and giving them shelter as Jesus would have done.


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No time for mediocrity.

People call me a Bible-Thumping reactionist ...and I'm proud to bear the name.
 


Posts: 293 | Posted: 12:13 AM on October 26, 2002 | IP
Sakata

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And dont worry Alex, I believe there is a good possiblity you will see a world with no religon in your life-time (or maybe my life-time, I have no clue how old you are).  I hope you like all that it will become.


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No time for mediocrity.

People call me a Bible-Thumping reactionist ...and I'm proud to bear the name.
 


Posts: 293 | Posted: 12:15 AM on October 26, 2002 | IP
dsadevil

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I don't distrust all white people because a) lynchings weren't sanctioned by an overall, global body of white people (US govt or UN) b) It wasn't systamatic.
Compare that to the official church doctrine, was to lock us up and burn us. Forgive me for being a bit leery. And to be honest, if I was black and saw a white southerner in a all white town, I'd be a bit nervous too.
And once again, judging from the rhetoric of Revs. Falwell and Robertson, I'm not convinced that that still wouldn't apply today. Those folks scare me, and they got serious influence too.


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 10:34 AM on October 26, 2002 | IP
Cool-Hand-Dave

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quite honestly, it pisses me off and offends me to hear the generalizations made in the debates.  Christians really do such, but so do jews and blacks and gays.  that's if you look at each group as a whole.  do you not understand that not every christian is prejudiced or wants to see everyone not like him die.  do you not see that some christians think it is more important to feed than try to convert?  are you blind to the fact that christians are not the only people that have committed atrocities.  look at all the people who believe the same as you, past and present, and you will find murderers.  Dahmer was gay, and Hitler was a Jew.  look in the mirror before you point your finger, and if the only arguments you have are locked in the past don't bother posting them.


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Cool Hand Dave
 


Posts: 134 | Posted: 12:28 AM on October 28, 2002 | IP
AlexanderTheGreat

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CoolHand Dave:
Dahmer was a gay or a pedophile?
And I don't think DsaDevil is resorting to generalizing about Christians. He doesn't have to. The only point that needs to be made is that the institution of Christianity has failed in every major respect throughout human history. Who cares if some Christians are nice?? Some of every category of people are nice (well, maybe you'd be hardpressed to find nice Nazis or KKK guys). The point is, if when it comes down to it there aren't a heck of higher percentage of Christians contributing to the world than let's say, percentage of secularists, than how can they claim to have the monopoly on moral legitimacy? Here's another example: the controversy of the Church's silence during the Holocaust. Maybe Christianity isn't invalidated by that (I personally think it's all crud), but the institution definitely is. Of course you can make all kind of excuses that would work fine for a normal, temporal organization: the risks were too great, they were playing what they though was a game of lesser evilism vs. the Commies, etc. But that doesn't fly with an institution that proclaims to be (the Pope specifically) God's vicar on earth. Christ didn't die for humanity's sins so that the Church that was founded on his sacrifice and resurrection could indulge in utilitarianism. The fact is, the Church has done more bad than good, and that is a look at the past tht matters when evaluating the value of that institution. Personally, I think Christianity is totally about self-absorption. It goes back to my example of the plane crash, in which everyone dies except one. That one goes back to his/her family and they all hug and they say" Oh it was such a miracle!", and about the others, "Oh it was such a tragedy!". Miracles and tragedies. Miracles and tragedies. There is no difference, or rather, neither exist. I agree with Young Goodman Brown when he exclaimed, "There is no good on earth, and sin is but a name!" Stalin kinda had it right too, when he said, "One death is a tragedy. A million deaths is a statistic." Ok, I just threw that one in there cause I'm on a quotation kick. I DO believe the world would be better off without religion in general and Christianity in particular. I think it is like Linus' blanket. Everyone knows he's too old to need it anymore but he just can't seem to give it up. Religion is a security blanket that civilization doesn't need anymore. Now it's just keeping us from growing up. People like Sakata think very little of human nature. They think people cannot be good or nice to each other without fear of punishment (hell) and promise of reward (heaven). But in truth, I don't even think that's their motivation. I don't think people believe in Christianity because they want people to be kind to each other. People believe because it makes THEMSELVES feel better, and what better way to secure that belief and feeling than to instill it in others. Safety in numbers. Misery likes company. Et cetera, et cetera. Religion isn't about altruism, it is about selfishness.

by the way, Sakata, I am 22 years old.



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Alex
 


Posts: 292 | Posted: 08:14 AM on October 28, 2002 | IP
madbilly

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well it seems that yalls interpretation of christianity comes from the wrong doings of the catholics. I dont agree with and dont like the pope or the vatican or the catholic religion which is far fetched from what the protestants are. I think sakata is also protestant, not catholic. The catholic church hid nazis post ww2 but the protestant churches (holland for example) hid jews and worked with underground resistences.(ask anne frank it was a protestant buisiness man in holland that hid her and her family.) dont hold christians to the evil and corruption that is found in the catholic sytsem. Protestants are way different.


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my name is madbilly....what did you expect me to be happy when my name says Mad in it...
 


Posts: 451 | Posted: 11:00 AM on October 28, 2002 | IP
Cool-Hand-Dave

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yes alex, i whole-heartedly agree that Christianity as an organization is screwed up.  that's because it is made up of people.  people screw up.  not just Christians, though, all people.  our government is screwed up.  why?  because it is run by people.  your order at mcdonald's is screwed up.  why?  because it is run by people.  i know they aren't the greatest comparisons, but they are very true.  i don't really agree with the way that most Christian organizations work because conversion really is a main goal in alot of them, but not all of them.  Christ didn't worry about conversion, He worried about love.  He worried about meeting needs and just listening.  And because some Christians really believe that and don't care about self-absorbtion or selfishness you cannot tell me that my religion is bad or should be done away with.  if you try to tell me that or try to force that on me, then you are indeed no better than the organization you hate.  in that case, the corruption comes through the individual, not the person.  sorry if that sounds harsh, but it's true


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Cool Hand Dave
 


Posts: 134 | Posted: 11:43 AM on October 28, 2002 | IP
Cool-Hand-Dave

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that last line was supposed to say through the individual not the organization.  sorry, got a little hurried in the typing.  thinking ahead of myself.  is there any way to edit your typos?  i'm still kinda new here.  and again sorry.

(Edited by Cool-Hand-Dave 10/28/2002 at 11:47 AM).

(Edited by Cool-Hand-Dave 10/28/2002 at 11:48 AM).


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Posts: 134 | Posted: 11:45 AM on October 28, 2002 | IP
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never mind.  i figured it out.  sorry again


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Cool Hand Dave
 


Posts: 134 | Posted: 11:48 AM on October 28, 2002 | IP
dsadevil

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Hitler wasn't a jew. One Paternal Grandfather was. Judiasm is passed down maternally.
Christianity as an organization has screwed up, for sure. Revs. Falwell and Robertson represent the protestant organization today. They are not good people. Martin Luther was one of the most virulent anti-semites ever to walk the earth. Individual christians can be, and often (more often than not), nice folks. But that can't and shouldn't stop us for condemning an organization that as a whole has failed to be a positive moral light for humanity.


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 6:10 PM on October 28, 2002 | IP
Sakata

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Any facts to back up your theory that the church is bad for people? Dsa? anyone?

Its helped me, I have a good friend who was a drug adict and found help in a church and now both her and her sister (also a druggie) have totally turned their lives around.  There are hundereds of christain orginizations in America that raise money to feed people living in poverty.  Churchs feed and house homeless and poor.
 Why does everyone hate the church so much?
It seems to me that everyone gets their perceptions of the church from the media, have any of you actually met a christian?  When I was working as a missionary we went into a gay community and were picking up trash/pulling weeds/painting fences etc, and people where asking us stuff like "Are christains allowed to smile?" and bizzare stuff like that, like they thought we where I dunno, amish or something.


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No time for mediocrity.

People call me a Bible-Thumping reactionist ...and I'm proud to bear the name.
 


Posts: 293 | Posted: 8:32 PM on October 28, 2002 | IP
AlexanderTheGreat

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Omigosh, so many things to respond to.
1. protestants are wonderful? dsa got this one right. Falwell said 9/11 was the fault of gays and atheists. wow, there's some brainy understanding of causality there. great leadership. 2. cool-hand dave: of course it is screwed up because it is run by people. but you can't get away with comparing the church to mcdonalds, or a government, which are secular organizations that do not profess to have any greater wisdom to impart upon people other than that which they can see for themselves in the temporal world. the church sets itself above other secular institutions, and thus cannot get away with having the same standards for itself as those more base institutions. in reality, the church's behavior has actually been worse than many manyh secular organizations. way I see it,. i do have a good argument for getting rid of something that does more overall harm than good. it's called progress. 3. and sakata, christianity is not overall good just because it has been good in improving the self-esteem and well-being of some Christians. the example of yourself benefiting from it just reinforces my view of it as self-absorbed. and when u went into the gay community to paint fences and pull weeds, NO ONE spoke about coming over to play for your team or homosexuality at all?? If you say so, I will believe you. and those, honestly, must have been some dumb gays. I have met Christians (of course), most of my friends are Christians (meaning, like most Christians, say they believe in God but don't follow a single rule). I don't live in a hole somewhere (although right now I am living in China). 4. lots of organizations help homeless and drug addicts, etc., but they HAVE NO STRINGS ATTACHED. Tell me, why did you really go into the gay community? They really had a massive weed/fence/trash problem that they couldn't deal with without some help from the friendly neighboorhood Christians???


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Alex
 


Posts: 292 | Posted: 01:01 AM on October 29, 2002 | IP
AlexanderTheGreat

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by the way, me wanting to get rid of Christianity does NOT make me like the organization I hate. Because I do not pretend to be anything that I am not. I am agnostic, gay, pro-democracy, and also a bit of a neoimperialist. I am very very HONEST about where I stand on things and my intentions. The Church AND its adherents profess to be better (yes better, don't skirt around the word - you think you are in god's grace and going to heaven while some of us are going to barbecue) than the rest of us and yet in reality are no better than secularists. that is the difference that there always will be between christianity, mcdonalds, and me.


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Alex
 


Posts: 292 | Posted: 01:08 AM on October 29, 2002 | IP
Cool-Hand-Dave

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i agree, falwell and robertson are morons.  they may represent whatever it is they represent but they do a terrible job of representing it.  but individuals make up organizations and they are individuals who in my opinion have some really dumb views.  do you think that even if the church were disbanded or whatever that christianity would go away to?  no, it wouldn't.  because christianity is, in it's simplest form, for the individual not an organization.  and even if there was no church there would still be falwells and there would still be mother teresas.  the church is not corrupt because it is just a word or a representation; however, there are corrupt individuals who think they control that idea.  maybe you shouldn't make such a fuss over a word.  and by the way, as well as i can remember alex, i have never said or implied that i was better than you in any way whatsoever.  and the mcdonalds thing was pretty weak, but it was the best i could think of at the time.  


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Cool Hand Dave
 


Posts: 134 | Posted: 2:27 PM on October 29, 2002 | IP
    
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