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       What defines an acceptable religion?

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KaosKat

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This is a serious post. What does it take for a religion to be considered acceptable for debate or even belief and whatnot? It seems that all the established religions are fine, everyone can argue them as much as they want because they've been around for so long. However newer ones aren't always given this chance, they're marked off because they are so new. BUT each religion was new once. What do you think?


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Posts: 9 | Posted: 11:23 PM on September 22, 2003 | IP
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I think new religon and old religon are the same because all religon is just us as humans finding a reason for life and death in ourself or others. Leaders are the people with the most radical ideas, the followers are people who believe in there ideas. there will always be new religons because there will always be people who arent willing to settle for your answer. the leaders, they need there own

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Posts: 0 | Posted: 9:38 PM on September 23, 2003 | IP
Carns

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Yeah,  a bit of a tricky question.. now  if you're asking it because you or someone you know are thinking about starting a religion, obviously you don't have the basis to form any kind of religion worth following.

A lot of crazy people have come through earth, said a lot of crazy things, and done a lot of crazy things.. some of those people had fan clubs who followed them around for long enough. do you think these new leaders (called so because of their new following) needed the validation of those following behind? of course not. These leaders (religious fathers/originators) were undoubtedly the kind of people who would have continued on in life regardless of those who followed... unless of  course they were lusting after having a crowd of followers and tried every trick in the book to convince whoever they could to folllow them....
confused?

well.. religion is a confusing topic... know why? because its man's attempt to relate to god or a supernatural "higher" being... what sorts of things do you really think we're capable of coming up with.... we've tried the worship the sun, worship the moon worship the river... worship the cow... i mean seriously, it's getting old.. all we've really been doing is worshipping ourselves in our 'wisdom' of what is "above" and we can't even figure that out right.


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Posts: 95 | Posted: 01:24 AM on April 24, 2005 | IP
DrAtH

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Most of the time it seems like any religion that people see as "valid" instills some kind of control over them, specifically moral control (the ten commandments is an example from the Christian religions).  So, a lot of the time, if a person wants religion as part of their lives, they just want a set of rules that "control" them.  Besides moral control, if you believe in the Christian God, you believe that He controls everything that is random chance.  So instead of not knowing why something happened and attributing it to chance, you can assume that it was God and be comforted by it.

Another thing is when people try to identify good and bad, it is not the same to every person.  Many religions tell what is "good" and what is "bad".  The Christian religion personifies good and bad with God and Satan, which just makes it much more appealing because then you can attribute your successes and failures to a figure rather than something less...tangible.

Of course, this isn't a very optimistic view of religion.  Let's just say that ignorance is bliss.

(Edited by DrAtH 4/24/2005 at 02:23 AM).


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Posts: 13 | Posted: 02:19 AM on April 24, 2005 | IP
Carns

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Okay, First of all, I'll point out what you said that is correct.

You're Right in that it is comforting to believe that a Benevolent Diety such as God exists and has "unlimited power" so to speak.

You're Right to say that Good and Bad are personified by God and Satan

You're Right to say that ignorance is bliss.

now the rest of what you said, is sort of twisted a bit... For example... if somebody chooses a religion (infer christianity here) that they believe is valid, since they choose it, they are not under Control by anything.
As a Christian, I Choose to Submit to God's authority, since i recognize that He (infer His Word) is more capable of deciding "whats best" for me than I am. Its the subtlety between Control and Submit. I Am not controlled by God, nor His laws. I see them as good, believe in them fully, and then choose to align myself with them. Moreover, religions "laws" or practices are more about overcoming your base nature, your evil nature. It's not like we're all goody-goody's and don't need laws. We do need them, i just choose to live by a more Morally correct set of laws then our legal system provides.

second, to say that GOd and Satan are equivalent or equal good and bad simply isn't true. They Demonstrate to us or "personify" those for us by being polar opposites. The represent a stance on good and evil, as both of their opinions of the matter are clearly seen. if i believe a certain set of political beliefs, i could be called a republican, a liberal, a communist etc. this does not in turn make me  the republic, the liberation, or a community..

oh.. and you're right. that isn't a very optimistic view of religion.... more specifically of christianity. chances are you believe in evolution too.... and if you were to post an article in a debate about sociology you would undoubtedly end it with, of course this isn't a very optimistic view of society... you see, when you come from goo... when you are a genetic mistake, chosen by natural selection, not above, but on par with all living things, and you were not intelligently designed, but instead, were tinkered bottom up from this clumsy 'creation-like' process... what would you have to be optimistic about...
what do you have to hope for.

im sure you may find a lot of pessimism and skepticism in your beliefs... why is that?

Sho 'nuff



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Posts: 95 | Posted: 08:33 AM on April 24, 2005 | IP
DrAtH

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Quote from Carns at 05:33 AM on April 24, 2005 :You're Right to say that ignorance is bliss.

I was wrong in saying that ignorance is bliss.  Ignorance is ignorance, and pessimism has never made me happier.

Quote from Carns at 05:33 AM on April 24, 2005 :As a Christian, I Choose to Submit to God's authority, since i recognize that He (infer His Word) is more capable of deciding "whats best" for me than I am. Its the subtlety between Control and Submit. I Am not controlled by God, nor His laws. I see them as good, believe in them fully, and then choose to align myself with them. Moreover, religions "laws" or practices are more about overcoming your base nature, your evil nature. It's not like we're all goody-goody's and don't need laws. We do need them, i just choose to live by a more Morally correct set of laws then our legal system provides.

You believe in God, and you believe that his rules are, in fact, better than anything you could come up with on your own?  Although I respect that, I think it's too easy.  You (not neccesarily you, but Christians) don't look at the world around you first and then make rules and guidelines for yourself; you let the Bible do that.  I hope you looked around first.

Assuming you've looked for answers first, what are you feelings about homosexuals?  Why doesn't God accept homosexuality?  I've always wondered, He made it possible for two members of the same gender to "have fun".  Why does God make rules about anything?  He could just as easily make everything he doesn't approve of impossible.  It doesn't make sense.  To me, the Bible is just collection of stories from way back that upheld the current morals and ethics.  (that was a bit of a rant, I apologize if it was hard to make out)

Quote from Carns at 05:33 AM on April 24, 2005 :oh.. and you're right. that isn't a very optimistic view of religion.... more specifically of christianity. chances are you believe in evolution too.... and if you were to post an article in a debate about sociology you would undoubtedly end it with, of course this isn't a very optimistic view of society... you see, when you come from goo... when you are a genetic mistake, chosen by natural selection, not above, but on par with all living things, and you were not intelligently designed, but instead, were tinkered bottom up from this clumsy 'creation-like' process... what would you have to be optimistic about...

And about evolution, it's about whether or not it makes sense.  It doesn't matter if it's aesthetically appealing.  Just because I think being created from an all-powerful rubber ducky would be cool, doesn't mean it's the most logical thing to believe in.

Quote from Carns at 05:33 AM on April 24, 2005 :to say that GOd and Satan are equivalent or equal good and bad simply isn't true. They Demonstrate to us or "personify" those for us by being polar opposites. The represent a stance on good and evil, as both of their opinions of the matter are clearly seen. if i believe a certain set of political beliefs, i could be called a republican, a liberal, a communist etc. this does not in turn make me  the republic, the liberation, or a community

What about the preachers that say that God is, "All Good" He is, "The essence of love", and all this other great stuff.  It seems like they're just rambling on about how good God is; you can't honestly tell me that he's bad, not even a little bit.  So he is good.  God=good.  As for Satan, being the polar opposite of God or something similar to that makes him bad.  So Satan is bad.  Satan=bad.

You are correct in saying that God does not control your morals, but rather guides it.  Of course Hell is an excellent way to persuade someone.  I think that some of the Bible's teachings are good to subscribe to, but you can just as easily come up with those yourself.  Don't kill anyone for instance, this is a biggie but I think a lot of people could get this on their own.

I apologize to the creator of the thread, the topic has gotten a little out of hand.  But religions like Wicca, Buddhism, Hinduism, Satanism; they all are decent religions, people know they're out there.  But if you're talking about a religion you've thought of on your own, I'd be willing to listen.

<by the way, I'm really tired.  if the post doesn't make much since, I'll fix it when I'm more awake>

(Edited by DrAtH 4/25/2005 at 01:33 AM).


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Posts: 13 | Posted: 01:31 AM on April 25, 2005 | IP
Peter87

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SOrry didn't read all the posts... but I just wanted to add...
Any religion no matter the age should be respected to the extent of allowing people to belive what they want to belive. However no religion shoudl be used to influence national leadership. There should be a clear divide between religion and state. Thus religious areguments should hold no sway in any debate on the laws or a country.


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Posts: 301 | Posted: 1:03 PM on April 25, 2005 | IP
Carns

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Peter.. while I am a religous person, i totally agree with you, people should be allowed to beleive what they want, and everybody is allowed. the fact is though, that national leadership is influenced by the people, and if a large group of people in a democratic country believe the same things, which may be rooted in some religion, then you will find politicians who are influenced by this opinion.. now i'm canadian, and our system is different, but we have member's of parliament who represent certain geographical areas of the country... as far as i know, USA is similar. now take salt lake city... it would make sense that any political debate that interests the mormon's one way or the other would influence the politicians representing that region....

but just because they are influenced doesn't mean that they should be, im just making a distinction between theory and practice. politicians have jobs to keep and constituents to please... if they happen to take the majority opinion (or a vocal minority) its a reflection of the majority, not necessarily religion in politics. in order to have no religious effect in a democracy, there would have to be no religious beliefs in it's people, because religious beliefs affect the stance people take on issues.

religion and state should be separate entities, i dont want politics infecting my beliefs, and i can respect that they dont want my beliefs to pervade their politics. seems fair to me.

i think that a lot of religious people are just afraid that saying "separation of church and state" means "separation of me and my country" that may be the trigger for some.




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Posts: 95 | Posted: 9:55 PM on April 25, 2005 | IP
Peter87

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Yes I know what your saying, however I mean mainly on the isues such as homosexuality (don't start a debate on that here) many of the arguments against homosexuality seems to be it goes against gods will. Its that kind of of direct atempted influence from the church (or any other religion) that I disagree with. Oh and I'm from Britain anyway but I understand the american system to a certain extent (enougth lets say) and there aren't really any good british debate sites.


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Posts: 301 | Posted: 10:05 AM on April 26, 2005 | IP
Carns

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well each individual is responsible for what influences them. if a moral argument influences them, then they're obviously open to consider other moral points of view.

free speech will include influence... why would somebody speek if not to influence somebody. why do you come to www.youdebate.com if not to influence people... now, the church, representing its members has the right to speak, right? so i guess i fail to see why they shouldn't be allowed to voice their opinion. I mean, nobody has to let the church influence them. i mean, i have to deal with direct attempted influences all day in refusing marketing ploy's...

unless you meant influence as in the church as an institution is trying to pressure governments somehow into going along with their personal agenda's...

but i think it's a free speech, choice of influence matter... is it possible you just don't like that the church having influence in our society?



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Posts: 95 | Posted: 12:03 AM on April 28, 2005 | IP
Peter87

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You probably right...


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Posts: 301 | Posted: 2:46 PM on April 28, 2005 | IP
    
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