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       There is a dragon living in my garage

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Flamewarrior

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++With thanks to Carl Sagan++

Hello my son, have you heard the good news? Our savior is upon us! You can be saved and brought closer to the allmighty?

What? You don't know what i'm talking about? Please, step this way.

*a few moments pass*

This is it. Yes, it looks like an ordinary garage, but inside it rests Azark, Dragon-God and creator of the universe! Praise be his name!

What's that? You want to see him? Quite impossible i'm afraid, Azark does not reveal himself to mortals, so he's invisble.

No, you can't touch him either, he's etheral. No no, he's silent too. Well yes, of course he can breathe fir...no, no, put the heat-sensor away. His activies are not detectable by simple science.

No, he dosn't leave footprints and he won't move things to show he's there. No, there isn't a dragon-shaped hole in the clutter, he's etheral remember?

Actually no, the garage weights the same because he's flying. I see your about to ask another questions, let me cut you off. Any of your scientific methods cannot detect Azark, he has hidden himself from such simple methods so that he knows that all who worship him are true believers.

What's that? You want to know how I know about him then? Faith my boy! When you truely believe in the existance and all-goodness of Azark you will feel him in your heart. Oh, and we also have this...

*the man pulls out a thick book*

This is the Azark Writ! It is solid proof of his divinity! It contains records of his creation of the earth and stars, and his miricles performed upon the earth!

Well  no, it's not exactly coroborated by other sources. All of the things in it happened thousands of years ago.

No, I don't know why Azark showed himself then and not now. Azark works in mysterious ways.

What do you mean the book is inconsistant and that the prophets say wildly differing things? You need to interpret!

Well yes, Azark's prophet does explicilty command his armies to kill all those innocent children in that passage. But he didn't truely understand Azark.

Yes, we truely understand Azark now. Why do you ask?

Allright....lets talk about the miricles then! He does great miricles in the book.

Well of course he still does miricles today! Just last week a true believer suddenly recovered from Nine-Day-Feaver on the brink of death! Only twenty people have done that, ever!

How many of those twenty were worshippers? Only 1.

Well yes, I suppose that the statictics show that followers are more likely to get sick. But that's not the point! The point is that a believer was healed by her faith in Azark!

Well no, there wasn't any bright lights or anything. But she felt it in her heart DISPITE the feaver dreams.

Wait! Where are you going? Are you rejecting the word of the Dragon. Your going to burn in hell for that!

---

The priest here seems crazy dosn't he? Well if you take the arguements he made and replace "The Dragon" and "Azark" with "God", there the same arguements Christans make to say that he exists.

So to any religous people reading this, can you see how these arguements are just a little bit silly? Or can we get my garage declared a tax-free holy site?


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Change is the only constant. Those who embrace it will prosper. Those who cling to their current beliefs are doomed to be nothing more then another lost cause, listed in a footnote in some history book.
 


Posts: 7 | Posted: 8:39 PM on January 14, 2005 | IP
Peter87

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Very good post, nice read, it didn't take me long to get where you were going with it. I don't know if this is relevant but in a similair way we look back (and I know I did this as a child still a christian because that is what my parents belived) at the ancient egyptian or greek myths and beliefs and think oh what silly people they were to think that. Within a few hundred or thousand years people will look back to this time period and think oh how silly to have those religions


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Why should we bow to the will of anyone? Especialy a man who our country but another voted for?
 


Posts: 301 | Posted: 9:40 PM on January 14, 2005 | IP
Michael

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I pray for you two. For being blinded by the beast and not being able to see this. Even subconsiously you refered to the beast (dragon) to make your point. Please try to be more open minded to these events.

It is not that Yahweh won't reveal himself, we choose not to see him. We have been blinded by our sins and have lost our way. We live in Babylon, the center of all that is evil. Satans playground and your denoucing Yahweh and mocking his existence is only feeding the furnace.

The day of judgement will come and for people like you I especially pray that Yahweh will take you into the light and teach you a better way. Read the bible, don't take it literally. Use it as a guide and remember not to judge anyone because you have not been judged yourself. And Peter, honor your Mother and your Father.[color=black]


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".. it is not our ability to remember but its exact opposite, the ability to forget that is the key to our exisitence.."
 


Posts: 22 | Posted: 10:46 PM on January 22, 2005 | IP
Peter87

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I feel sorry for you by being blinded by your religion to follow strictly the guide lines laid down two millenia ago. However I acept that that is your choice and I wont preach to you about how you shouldn't have faith, if you need to faith to curve your fear of death then fine, but grant me the same and acept that I'm going to hell and don't preach to me about it.

But what I realy find offensive in your post is "Peter, honor your Mother and your Father" are you sayingh I don't? Just because I chose not to follow there path in life, I'm sure you don't like everything your parents do, or do you have the same music taste and the same film taste and the same fashion sense as your parents?


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Why should we bow to the will of anyone? Especialy a man who our country but another voted for?
 


Posts: 301 | Posted: 08:43 AM on January 23, 2005 | IP
Flamewarrior

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God is GOOD to humanity. God has ALWAYS been GOOD to humanity. Saying that there are passages in the bible that show God not BEING GOOD to humanity is a serious form of THOUGHTCRIME.

----

How, exactly, I am supposed to interpret Moses saying. "Slay all the men and all those women who have slept with a man, but spare all those women who have not slept with a man and take them for your own!"

----

Michael, I used a Dragon as part of my analogy because that's what Carl Sagan used when he made the argument for the first time. And in this case the Dragon referse to your god, not to Satan.

Besides, why badmouth it? At least storybook dragons admit they want to eat you, as opposed to the imanginary sky-pixie that says "I am good and mercifull!" while orders thousands of loyal followers killed.

----

I am an atheist, not a satanist. I don't' worship any god or goddess, panthenon, demon, angel, or dragon. I can't be feading the furnace because there is No Satan. He. Dosn't. Exist.

----

So god fills the earth with tons of evidence that he dosn't exist, and when this judgement day comes he'll burn everyone that believed it?

What a vindictive bastard.

----

Read my sig!


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Change is the only constant. Those who embrace it will prosper. Those who cling to their current beliefs are doomed to be nothing more then another lost cause, listed in a footnote in some history book.
 


Posts: 7 | Posted: 1:37 PM on January 23, 2005 | IP
Michael

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I follow no strict guidlines Peter. I use it as a reference on how to handle certain situations in my life. If you cannot apply the bible to your life then maybe you need to explore other religions. And you Peter accept non mans choice to believe what they do. ".. if you need faith to curve your fear of death..." I have no fear of death nor do I seek it. You may be able to destroy my body, but you can't have my soul. Your problem Peter, is that you think you know it all. That you have figured it out and that everyone is thinking inside this little box. Your not very open to other peoples opinions. When I said I prayed for you , I meant it in the sincerest way possible. It's what I do when I fear for others. If you read a bit further I was more or less criticing what FW was saying about Yahweh ( A being I believe in) and was offering an alternative suggestion to what you believe to be correct. And I don't say that meaning I am right an you are wrong. No one knows the entire truth. We leave it to chance. I just happen to have faith in what I believe, if you don't then so be it. And Peter, the same taste in music, film and fashion have nothing to do with honoring your mother and father. By what you say to me or any other believer, you are saying to your parents. Maybe not directly, but you are attaking the belief system that they live their life by and that you used to.  And by doing that you are disrespecting them. I am not saying you do not love your parents and that they are not an important part of your life. I am only clarifying why I said what I said. And all I have to say to you FW is, What, in your view, is a loyal follower ?

(Edited by Michael 1/24/2005 at 02:06 AM).


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".. it is not our ability to remember but its exact opposite, the ability to forget that is the key to our exisitence.."
 


Posts: 22 | Posted: 02:00 AM on January 24, 2005 | IP
Flamewarrior

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Quote from Michael at 02:00 AM on January 24, 2005 :
I follow no strict guidlines Peter. I use it as a reference on how to handle certain situations in my life. If you cannot apply the bible to your life then maybe you need to explore other religions. And you Peter accept non mans choice to believe what they do. ".. if you need faith to curve your fear of death..." I have no fear of death nor do I seek it. You may be able to destroy my body, but you can't have my soul. Your problem Peter, is that you think you know it all. That you have figured it out and that everyone is thinking inside this little box. Your not very open to other peoples opinions. When I said I prayed for you , I meant it in the sincerest way possible. It's what I do when I fear for others. If you read a bit further I was more or less criticing what FW was saying about Yahweh ( A being I believe in) and was offering an alternative suggestion to what you believe to be correct. And I don't say that meaning I am right an you are wrong. No one knows the entire truth. We leave it to chance. I just happen to have faith in what I believe, if you don't then so be it. And Peter, the same taste in music, film and fashion have nothing to do with honoring your mother and father. By what you say to me or any other believer, you are saying to your parents. Maybe not directly, but you are attaking the belief system that they live their life by and that you used to.  And by doing that you are disrespecting them. I am not saying you do not love your parents and that they are not an important part of your life. I am only clarifying why I said what I said. And all I have to say to you FW is, What, in your view, is a loyal follower ?

(Edited by Michael 1/24/2005 at 02:06 AM).



It depends.

A loyal follower to a leader belives that, come what may, that leader has the best intrests of them and their people at heart and that he/she is the best person to guide them to those intrests.

A loyal follower of a god/goddess/pathenon belives in the lessions, morals, and guidelines that their <g/g'dess/whatever> layed down.

A loyal follower to an idea or cause belives that that is the right path for humanity and would give anything for it.


(Edited by Flamewarrior 1/24/2005 at 2:43 PM).

(Edited by admin 1/25/2005 at 06:58 AM).


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Change is the only constant. Those who embrace it will prosper. Those who cling to their current beliefs are doomed to be nothing more then another lost cause, listed in a footnote in some history book.
 


Posts: 7 | Posted: 2:43 PM on January 24, 2005 | IP
Michael

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I may be set in my ways but because you  do not believe in a superior force, does not mean it is not true. Your definition of a loyal follower was accurate to a certain extent. Fine until you started the personal attacks.

You and me have quite a bit in common. Stubborn to the point of dismissing all other posibilities to lifes mysteries. Accepting that life is chance and that our choices will ultimately decide our fate. But rather then bickering back and forth, why can't we come to a median. While I will admit that the existence of a super-natural being that created all that we see and more, does sound a bit far fetched. But that does not mean it is not true. Humans evolving from single cell organisms, sounds far fetched, but does not mean it is not true. This is where chance comes into play. If I choose to live my life by a book and the message turns out to be untrue ( which I don't believe), then that is my loss. If you accept that you are the master of your own destiny and that there is no need for subjecting yourself to a false cause and it turns out to be untrue, that is your loss.

The only reason that I try to encourage people to reconsider their current belief is because of 2 reasons. 1. because it says in scripture to share the Good News and to spread it to all the ends of the earth. 2. I have studied religion extensively and if there is one thing I have found, it is that there is an uncanny reslemblance to some of the revelations in scripture and current events across the globe. The apocolypse is a frightful event and I want people to be able to avoid purgatory and persacution. I fear for people and that is why I push conversion so much.

But you are entitled to freely choose as you please and I respect your choice.

But there is one thing I want you to know. Going to church every Sunday and boasting about all the good things you have done , does not make a good christian. Living your life, true to yourself, accepting things as they are and not questioning there purpose, and treating everyone as an equal and respecting them as a person, makes a good christian.(not making any reference to you, just making a statement)

I know I did not continue with my point on the whole loyal follower bit, Just one more question.  When has Yahweh ( hebrew "Lord Almighty") ordered his loyal followers killed ?
3 examples please.( one will suffice)

(Edited by admin 1/25/2005 at 06:59 AM).


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".. it is not our ability to remember but its exact opposite, the ability to forget that is the key to our exisitence.."
 


Posts: 22 | Posted: 10:10 PM on January 24, 2005 | IP
Peter87

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Mike, you seem like a good person, sorry if I offended you, but I would like to point out I'm not a narrow minded idiot, I am open to surgestions, just personaly after personl experiances and other factors I wont go into I don't have faith. I was probably a bit harsh before, I had just done the hardest exam I've ever had to do, but I had my last exams until june today and both were reasonably easy, well at least for me ;)


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Why should we bow to the will of anyone? Especialy a man who our country but another voted for?
 


Posts: 301 | Posted: 1:09 PM on January 25, 2005 | IP
Flamewarrior

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First off, I object to the editing of my post. That was NOT a personal attack. That was desinged to show that loyality is only a virture to an extent. Too much loyalty is a bad thing.

Stubborn to the point of dismissing all other posibilities to lifes mysteries. Accepting that life is chance and that our choices will ultimately decide our fate.


Point, I would say that "I'm not stubborn, i'm right", but you believe it just as much so....

But rather then bickering back and forth, why can't we come to a median.


I was under the impression that this was a debate forum.

While I will admit that the existence of a super-natural being that created all that we see and more, does sound a bit far fetched. But that does not mean it is not true.


That's my point. The dragon-in-the-garage theroy is more then a bit far-fethced, it's absolutly absurd. But you can't prove your god exists any more then I can prove there's a dragon in my garage.

Humans evolving from single cell organisms, sounds far fetched, but does not mean it is not true.


Ehhhh. Not as far feteched as it seems. (Yes, i'm aware that's all relative, I coudln't think of a better way to say that.)

How well do you know the theroy of evolution? I would just like to make sure we are working from the same defination.

his is where chance comes into play. If I choose to live my life by a book and the message turns out to be untrue ( which I don't believe), then that is my loss. If you accept that you are the master of your own destiny and that there is no need for subjecting yourself to a false cause and it turns out to be untrue, that is your loss.


Aggreed.

The only reason that I try to encourage people to reconsider their current belief is because of 2 reasons. 1. because it says in scripture to share the Good News and to spread it to all the ends of the earth. 2. I have studied religion extensively and if there is one thing I have found, it is that there is an uncanny reslemblance to some of the revelations in scripture and current events across the globe. The apocolypse is a frightful event and I want people to be able to avoid purgatory and persacution. I fear for people and that is why I push conversion so much.


I still think your completly wrong, but I can't fault the nobility of your effort.

oing to church every Sunday and boasting about all the good things you have done , does not make a good christian. Living your life, true to yourself, accepting things as they are and not questioning there purpose, and treating everyone as an equal and respecting them as a person, makes a good christian.(not making any reference to you, just making a statement)


Ah, alas, if only the entire religious community had that attitude the world would be a much, much better place.

I know I did not continue with my point on the whole loyal follower bit, Just one more question.  When has Yahweh ( hebrew "Lord Almighty") ordered his loyal followers killed ?
3 examples please.( one will suffice)


Please excuse me, I don't have a bible on hand, but I can recall two instances inperticular. (if you can't locate the page I can provide it in my responce). The second one should be easy to find though.

When one of gods prophets (i can't remember which one, i'll find it) was preaching to a group of would-be converts in Rome, he commanded that one of them strike him, the mage responded that he would not stike a prophet of god. The prophet again commanded that the man strike him, and the man again refused. Moses shouted that he was disobeying god, and yet the man still refused. The man turned to walk away, and a Lion lept out and ate him the moment he stepped out of the Archway.

----

Here is one that's easier to find. When Noah and his sons were moving the Ark, god commanded that his power would steady the ark and so Noah and his sons should not steady it with their own hand. The ark seemed to sway, and one of Noah's sons, convinced that it was about to fall, reached out and touched it to steady it. And god smote him where he stood for doubting the allighty.


---

Also, I would like to say that (the rightness or wrongness of your arguements aside), it is refreshing to debate with a Christan who isn't a zelot. I apoligize for my confrontational attitude previously.


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Change is the only constant. Those who embrace it will prosper. Those who cling to their current beliefs are doomed to be nothing more then another lost cause, listed in a footnote in some history book.
 


Posts: 7 | Posted: 11:33 PM on January 25, 2005 | IP
Michael

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I'm going to make this short. I have to go to work. Firstly, when I was making the stubborn speach I said that we were both stubborn and the additional qualities applied to us both ( I'm not sure if thats how you interpretd what I said. If you did cool)

Secondly, Your right this is a debate and I should not be interpreting everything as a personal attack.

Third. I am well aware of Darwin's theory of eveloution and the most recent theories supporting it. I coverd this debate in a Political Science class ( believe it or not) and I watch Discovery Civilization, Discovery, National Geographic, CNN, CBC, BBC. Plus I read alot of books. So iguess I can say I'm well informed.

Forth, I'm glad we agree on something.

Fith. Now I would not say I'm wrong ( simply because of my belief ) and while I think I am right, because I am falable, I may be wrong.( and that is not me questioning my faith, I know I'm right) But the same applies to you.And I apprecite your persistence. It makes for a good debate.

Sixth. Christians today are nothing like the first Christians. The ones who personally knew Yeshua (Aramaic " Jesus)(hebrew dialect at that time) would be the ideal Christian. The ones Yahweh intended. Todays Christians are to corupted. To much exposure to what we call evoloution. I call sin. Babylon.

The first example does not ring a bell. But I only started into the Old Testament. But I am farmiliar with the Noah story. Not all mid you. Haven't made it that far. But the reason Yahweh would smite him ( this is my opinion) is because he had questioned his faith. Yahweh is perfection. In the minds of all religious peoples. You do not question his actions nor his motives. If he promised to steady the boat. Then he would steady the boat. Noahs son assumed it would tip because he had no faith in Yahweh, who is infalable, who has spared his life and has given His word. That is blasphemy and therefore an attack on Yahweh. The creator. That is my explination as to why he would do that to what you call a loyal follower. By tipping that boat He was testing their faith. And He found the false one.


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".. it is not our ability to remember but its exact opposite, the ability to forget that is the key to our exisitence.."
 


Posts: 22 | Posted: 12:49 AM on January 26, 2005 | IP
Flamewarrior

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But the reason Yahweh would smite him ( this is my opinion) is because he had questioned his faith.


So god is a vindictive then? That would be like my saying "i'm not gonna shoot you" and then pulling out, arming, cocking and aiming a pistol just to see if you react. It's vindictive and unnessicary.

Yahweh is perfection.


No, he's not. A perfect god would have known without the test and so woudln't have needed to smite him.

In the minds of all religious peoples.


Actually about half the world either thinks he's a false god(bhuddists, pagans, Hindu's, etc), or evil incarnate trying to distract them from the will of their true god. (muslems)

You do not question his actions nor his motives.


I do. As do all athiests.

If he promised to steady the boat. Then he would steady the boat.


If I tell you. "I am not going to crash this plane." and then go into a nose-dive, when do you reach foreward and pull up the controls? Before or after you reach the point of certian death?

Noahs son assumed it would tip because he had no faith in Yahweh, who is infalable, who has spared his life and has given His word.


God DIDN'T spare his life. God killed him and presumeably sent him to hell afterwards.

And it takes a whole lot of faith to manuver a huge boat down a road with nothing securing it, just because he didn't have total faith dosn't make him faithless.

That is blasphemy and therefore an attack on Yahweh. The creator.


Because we all know that god smites every person who comits blasphemy against him.

Oh....wait.

That is my explination as to why he would do that to what you call a loyal follower. By tipping that boat He was testing their faith. And He found the false one.


If he's really all-knowing, he woudln't have to test.

And to go back to my plan analogy, if you grabbed the controls and pulled up, yes, I'd be insulted that you didn't trust me, but I woudln't whip out a gun and kill you. What ever happened to "god is mercifull"?


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Change is the only constant. Those who embrace it will prosper. Those who cling to their current beliefs are doomed to be nothing more then another lost cause, listed in a footnote in some history book.
 


Posts: 7 | Posted: 5:49 PM on January 26, 2005 | IP
Michael

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I wouldn't say he is vindictive. The Jewish people are Yahwehs chosen people. Since the begining of time. Leading up to the flood the commited many immoral acts, Noah included.

But for some reason Yahweh favoured Noah. Maybe it was because he was an alcoholic and easily persuaded. In any case it was Noah he chose to survive.(and his 3 sons, their wives and his own wife. And 2 of every creature.)

The reason Yahweh tests people is because people have the knowledge of good and evil. By saying Yahweh is all-knowing of good and evil is true. But to say he knows what the choice of a man will be before he makes it
is not true. Man has a free mind. It is the choices we make that determines what happens. What you call chance. While we may make a decision based on our best intentions, that does not mean that is the right choice. Thats left to Yahweh to decide. Why ? Because he created life as we know it. He is all knowing of good and evil. And we should show Him the respect he deserves by living our lives according to His word.

As Christians we are more fortunate. Yahweh shows us mercy because of the sacrfice His son had made. Yeshuas life for ours. Noah and his sons were Jews and as Yahwehs chosen people more is expected of them in all aspects of what we call religon.

Since the begining of time Jews have wandered from their faith in order to fit in with society. They worshiped idols and commited many immoral acts. Even after Mosaic law was established they still indulged themselves to blasphemus acts. And while their intentions were to provide a safe atmosphere for their famlies and themselves(anti-semitism has existed for as long as Jews have.), they didn't keep faith that Yahweh would protect them and that they could keep their sacred customs.

As Christians we are not subjected to as many rules and regulations. We can repent our sins in Yeshua(Jesus)'s name and we will be forgiven of our sins. (according to the teachings of todays scripture and religious leaders). I have a different perspective on christianity. I consider myself a Yeshuite.( you will not find any info on this religon because it does not exist) Basicly, Christ was the perfect man. He lived his life according to Mosaic law, he used his faith to perform miracles. For others and never for himslef. And while I will never live up to someone as great as him. I can make my best efforts to live as he did and use his parables as methods of addressing the challanges of day to day life.

But anyway, back to the debate. Your comparison of Yahweh flooding the earth and you flying the plane was exellent. Your, I'm afraid to say, are infalable. Its not the actions but the intentions behind them. Yours is to my faith in mankind which wears thinner and thinner by the day. But my faith in Yahweh is everlasting and undying. If anything it grows stronger by the day.

Yahweh did spare his life by allowing him to get on that ark. And even after seeing the entire earth submerged in water, first hand witnessing of Yahwehs awsome power. He still questioned his faith by steadying the boat. If Yahweh can flood the entire earth in 40 days, then I think He could keep a boat from tipping over. And that is how Noahs son should have seen it.

I know my respose jumps all over the place but I think I covered all the bases.


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".. it is not our ability to remember but its exact opposite, the ability to forget that is the key to our exisitence.."
 


Posts: 22 | Posted: 5:14 PM on January 27, 2005 | IP
Flamewarrior

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I wouldn't say he is vindictive. The Jewish people are Yahwehs chosen people. Since the begining of time. Leading up to the flood the commited many immoral acts, Noah included.


Ah yes. The flood that never happened (there are no signs of any global flood other then the bible).

Also, for gods chosen people, the Jews have had a lot of bad things happen to them throughout history.

The reason Yahweh tests people is because people have the knowledge of good and evil. By saying Yahweh is all-knowing of good and evil is true. But to say he knows what the choice of a man will be before he makes it


The idea of a truely all-knowing god and free-will and in conflict. Pick one of the other.

Since the begining of time Jews have wandered from their faith in order to fit in with society. They worshiped idols and commited many immoral acts. Even after Mosaic law was established they still indulged themselves to blasphemus acts. And while their intentions were to provide a safe atmosphere for their famlies and themselves(anti-semitism has existed for as long as Jews have.), they didn't keep faith that Yahweh would protect them and that they could keep their sacred customs.


...so you think the Jew's don't worship the same god you do? That their all unfaithfull?


But anyway, back to the debate. Your comparison of Yahweh flooding the earth and you flying the plane was exellent. Your, I'm afraid to say, are infalable. Its not the actions but the intentions behind them. Yours is to my faith in mankind which wears thinner and thinner by the day. But my faith in Yahweh is everlasting and undying. If anything it grows stronger by the day.


First, I think you meant that i'm fallable, not infallable. And second, if you choose to acknowledge free will, then you have to admit that god isn't all-knowing, which makes him fallable too.

Yahweh did spare his life by allowing him to get on that ark. And even after seeing the entire earth submerged in water, first hand witnessing of Yahwehs awsome power. He still questioned his faith by steadying the boat. If Yahweh can flood the entire earth in 40 days, then I think He could keep a boat from tipping over. And that is how Noahs son should have seen it.


Except that god didn't flood the earth. The only evidence of anything that remotly resembles a global flood is when the shelf overlooking the mediteranian sea broke and the local area around it was flooded for awhile, and even with that the date is compeltly off.


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Change is the only constant. Those who embrace it will prosper. Those who cling to their current beliefs are doomed to be nothing more then another lost cause, listed in a footnote in some history book.
 


Posts: 7 | Posted: 2:59 PM on January 28, 2005 | IP
Peter87

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Are you saying that god wanted the jews to openly perform there faith in public in ancient egypt and anciet rome? Because thats what god wanted them to do, instead of fitting in?
Well anyone that did show faith was exicuted, so god wanted them to show there faith "testing" them, know full well that they would be persecuted.
Did god not want the jews to hide in nazi germany as well? Or would he rather have them preaching on the corners and being dragged off to be gassed.
Come on if god wanted the jews not to hide there faith and it was a test, then why did all the jews that showed there faith get killed? Logicaly if that is what god wanted them to do then shouldn't they have been the ones that got saved?


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Why should we bow to the will of anyone? Especialy a man who our country but another voted for?
 


Posts: 301 | Posted: 7:58 PM on January 28, 2005 | IP
Michael

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In respose to FW.

To find physical evidence of the flood would be a contridiction to the Christian faith. Secondly, I am very much aware of the Jews and thier troubles.(diaspora, genoside, slavery)

Yahweh at one point knew litterally all. When Adam ate the fruit it gave him the knowledge of what was good and evil. Perhaps that is why Yahweh does not make himself known. Perhaps he will let us live our lives as we see fit. And then he will Judge us accordingly.For me to say exactly who Yahweh is and how He thinks, what He knows and why He does the things He does. Is impossible. I do not know him personally, nor have I ever been able to have a conversation with him where he talks back. Not that that is what I seek. Simply making a point.

You FW, see Yahweh as a human. You understand he is a god, but you give him so many human qualities. People have been humanizing Yahweh since the begining. Where do you think idolatry came from. Secondly, when you take parts of my post, as a quote. It sometimes portays a different message then what I was saying. I would appreciate it if you made note that it is out of context and not the original message of the author. You don't even take full sentences, sometimes.

I never said that Jews do not worship the same God as me, nor did I say they were all unfaithful. Read the book of Exodus and you will understand the message. Christianity came from Judaism, so that would be kind of contradictory if we didn't worship the same God. Some Jews have submitted themselves to idolatry and I am talking bc to early ad era. Not all Jews. Some have commited sexually immoral acts, some have killed, stole and commited adultry. They were sinners. All religions have them, including christianity.
But like I said before thew Jews are the chosen people of Yahweh, and more is expected of them. Throughout the entire bible Old and New testaments. Yahweh spoke with his people, took care of his people, freed them from bondage. And the still sinned. Thats a slap in the face.

Your right. I did mean fallable. And secondly, I will admit that we have free will on the basis that we have the knowledge of good and evil and we make our decisions accordingly. I will not admit that Yahweh is not all-knowing nor will I admit or support the notion that He is fallable. He is the Alpha and the Omega. You can't give human qualities to a God. It's like saying I am like a fish, in the sense that we both eat. Just nothing at all the same.

Again you are looking for proof. Any being that can make flood waters rise and fall in 40 days and nights, deserves to be revered as God. From a scientific perspective, you would need extended exposure to flood elements ( far more then 40 days) in order for there to be evidence of such a cataclismic event. From a religious perspective, I don't need proof. I put my faith in Yahweh, his son Yeshua and thier message. I need no more then that.

In response to Peter.

You missed the message I was trying to put forward and maybe I didn't explain clearly.

In ancient Egypt, the Jews were used as slaves to build the may cities of the empire. The egyptians had many gods. Set was the god of knowledge. Ra was the god of the sun. Anubis was the god of enbalming, and the list goes on and on and on. Whereas the Jews believed in monotheism, one god one being.

Some jews were tired of being persacuted, so they would adopt some of the customs and beliefs of the egyptian culture to fit in. They were not persacuted because of their faith. They were small in numbers when they had first settled along the nile. So the populas egyptians took advantage of this. Its like the Americans and slavery.

It was because they had betrayed thier God and thier faith, that was the very reason they were persacuted.

I ancient Rome they were free to practice their religion, hell it was a roman govener that condemed Yeshua ( Jesus) for the Jews, because he had blasphemed their faith.

Adolf Hitler in the views of many people was an Anti-Christ. Anyone that trys to take over the world to impose what they believe to be right, is wrong. The Jews did not deserve to be persacuted, and in this case it was on account of thier faith.

Hitlers mother was a Jewish prostatute and he believed this is where his imperfections had come from. The perfect race was blond hair blue eyes and anglican in faith. Everything the Jews weren't.

One thing I find intriguing about the whole thing is that satans choice ( anti christ) would destroy the chosen people of God. It makes you wonder.

A small note on the egyptian thing. It makes reference to a day when every newborn boy of Jewish faith ( used to destinguish them from egyptians) were to be killed because the Jews were becoming to populas and the pharoh had worried about a reveloution. This was just prior to the Exodus of the bible.


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".. it is not our ability to remember but its exact opposite, the ability to forget that is the key to our exisitence.."
 


Posts: 22 | Posted: 12:39 PM on January 30, 2005 | IP
Flamewarrior

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To find physical evidence of the flood would be a contridiction to the Christian faith.


Why?

Perhaps he will let us live our lives as we see fit. And then he will Judge us accordingly.


Yeah, because a test where you don't know your being tested, or what the material is, or if the tester even exists is fair.

For me to say exactly who Yahweh is and how He thinks, what He knows and why He does the things He does. Is impossible. I do not know him personally,


There is an idea in science called the Black Box principle. Simply put, lets imangine i have a perfectly black box that's totally immune to any way I could find our how it works. All I know is that it goes "beep" every ten seconds. The Black Box principle says that it would be there's a timer in there that goes off every ten seconds, or there could be an allmighty god who for reasons we can't begin to fathom goes "beep" every ten seconds.

The black box principle says that it could be either one, but we might as well assume that it's the timer, because the timer is simpler and adds up to the same thing in the end.

Likewise if god displays the same habits as a teacher tormenting his students, there might be some grand design behind it, but that does nothing to change the fact that he's still acting like a teacher tomenting his students. A really wise god would find a better way.

I do not know him personally, nor have I ever been able to have a conversation with him where he talks back.


So it's entirely possible that your talking to yourself then?

And secondly, I will admit that we have free will on the basis that we have the knowledge of good and evil and we make our decisions accordingly. I will not admit that Yahweh is not all-knowing nor will I admit or support the notion that He is fallable. He is the Alpha and the Omega.


They are in conflict. If god is all-knowing, then he knows the outcome of your decision before you decide it, so you don't really have any more "free will" then a car has free will when it "decides" to turn itself on when you turn the key.

Any being that can make flood waters rise and fall in 40 days and nights, deserves to be revered as God.


Give me an orbital mirror over the polar ice caps and I shall flood the world. Does that mean that if I built one you would have to worship me?


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Change is the only constant. Those who embrace it will prosper. Those who cling to their current beliefs are doomed to be nothing more then another lost cause, listed in a footnote in some history book.
 


Posts: 7 | Posted: 6:04 PM on January 30, 2005 | IP
    
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