PRO

Where Your Ideas can change Minds

Please visit our new forum at

http://www.4forums.com

CON


YouDebate.com Forum
» back to YouDebate.com
Register | Profile | Log In | Lost Password | Active Users | Help | Board Rules | Search | FAQ |
Custom Search
» You are not logged in.   log in | register

  YouDebate.com Forum
   Religon Debates
     cristins in the after life

Topic Jump
« Back | Next »
[ Single page for this topic ]
Forum moderated by: admin
    

    
Gothicfirefreak_21

|      |       Report Post



Newbie
Post Score
Adjustment:
n/a

Rate this post:

Should people who were rased and baptised cristin get to atumaticly go to heven when they die?


-------
Always and forever
GOTH,
 


Posts: 3 | Posted: 7:17 PM on March 6, 2005 | IP
got_dooie

|      |       Report Post




Member
Post Score
Adjustment:
n/a

Rate this post:

WHAT? the answer is of course NO! Sola fides (faith alone) does not bring you to eternal life (contrary to popular prostestant beliefs).  The bible in no way said this and neither does it say that it is self-sufficient for the salvation of man.  Therefore it is by faith, the church, and acts of charity towards others (essentially towards God) that we are saved.


-------
I always live in the past, the present is not not, the future is not yet, therfore only the past.
 


Posts: 84 | Posted: 12:26 PM on March 16, 2005 | IP
Carns

|      |       Report Post




Member
Post Score
Adjustment:
n/a

Rate this post:

You said "Therefore" as if it was an obvious conclusion to come to, but introduced new arguments in your conlclusion....

I'm intrigued. What exactly makes you think that there is salvation by three things (faith, the church and charity)?

salvation requires that we be in a predicament, and then it follows that we be removed from that predicament. Once you are extracted from this situation, you have been saved. this is simple english folks.

if a person removes us from our predicament, they are our saviour.

this is general stuff. you can't really debate it in theory, although my wording may be brutal.

so you mention salvation by
1. Faith
2. The Church
3. Charity

1. Faith
If faith is a component of our salvation, this is intriguing since we either possess faith or do not... since everybody has faith in one thing or another, it follows that obviously one must have the correct "faith" to be saved... so please define exactly where this Goth's faith should be placed to 'saved'?

2. The church
how exactly will the Church (and what church specifically?) save anyone? do you have any reason to hope in the church to save you?
is pope john paul reserving a seat for you somewhere in the after life? is pope benedict going to call up god on this red telephone they've got in the vatican and say "psst... since you can't tell from up there, I'm just calling to let you know that john is an O-Kay guy and this peter fella is evil... don't let him in.."
Please define how a natural institution such as the church facilitates something supernatural such as one's salvation?

3. Charity
everybody agrees its good to be generous, its good to help those in need etc. Mother theresa exemplified this extraordinarily. Those who perform charitable works on earth deserve recognition. that said... is this the logic behind Charity as a saviour? how can Charity save me if i'm a poor widow.
who are the poor supposed to be charitable towards? if you are a 3 year old orphan, being taken care of by an 8 year old, and you eat anything you can to survive, literally have nothing... how is charity to help you... doesnt it apply to everybody? i suppose we should tell this young man or lady that they have to give up their only meal this weak to somebody else... but then that person must give it away also... in fact, nobody in impoverished countries can keep anything, because they'd have to give away everything they ever had to become charitable...
on a percentage scale then, am i supposed to make myself impoverished to that degree just so that i am equally as charitable?

do i have to give a certain dollar amount to the poor? the pope? the priests? the people? the politicians?

who decides when i'm being charitable, and when am i being charitable enough that it merits me salvation in the one-third part it plays?


Okay... so overall... please explain how three things can save me.... ps. the bible doesn't support these as saviours.. it only says that christ is our saviour.. not our genorosity, not the church.. Christ saved us by becoming our sin for us (if we allow him to bear it) and being crucified for it, followed by being raised up on the 3rd day. explain how the church will add to this somehow... so somehow christ dying isn't enough right? we have to get the pope to sign off on the deal do we? oh... we have to fund this operation because somehow the cross was pure diamond and christ went into debt somehow...

please explain to me how Christs death and resurrection and my belief that this event is enough to save me on its own is wrong. Describe to me where in the bible is even remotely suggests that IT IS NOT ENOUGH.
i'll show you verses that back up my belief if you need them, but even logic shows that i dont need to look elsewhere.



ps.the pope's got a good job, but who wants to work at that age.



-------
Inherent Freedom For All
 


Posts: 95 | Posted: 10:07 AM on April 24, 2005 | IP
got_dooie

|      |       Report Post




Member
Post Score
Adjustment:
+1

Rate this post:

Okay... so overall... please explain how three things can save me.... ps. the bible doesn't support these as saviours.. it only says that christ is our saviour.. not our genorosity, not the church.. Christ saved us by becoming our sin for us (if we allow him to bear it) and being crucified for it, followed by being raised up on the 3rd day. explain how the church will add to this somehow... so somehow christ dying isn't enough right? we have to get the pope to sign off on the deal do we? oh... we have to fund this operation because somehow the cross was pure diamond and christ went into debt somehow...


Oh?  The bible doesn't support these things as part of salvation?  Hah

Well for starters let's begin with the bible like you said:

All they need is to accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and savior and no matter what they do after, they are assured they will go straight to heaven. Jesus Christ paid the price for all sins, past, present, and future. Jesus Christ took the test for us all and gave each of us a grade of 100%. Now doesn't that sound good? Just think, you can do anything you want for the rest of your life and your irrevocable ticket to heaven was paid for with the blood of Christ almost 2000 years ago. What a gift! What a great blessing! What nonsense!!!

The primary error here, has its roots in the fact that protestant churches are built on the wrong foundation, therefore no matter how much work they do to their church, it will not help if the foundation is faulty. Which Church is built on 'rock' (Mt 16:18), and which Church is guided by the Holy Spirit (Jn 14:16-17)?

Fundamentalists look to Jn 5:24, "...he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has life everlasting, and does not come to judgment, but has passed from death to life." They use Gal 2:20, "And the life that I now live in the flesh, I live in the faith of the Son of GOD who loved me and gave Himself up for me." There are other verses which they use as well, such as Rom 4:4-8, and Eph 2:8-10.

These verses are all good, but the foundation upon which the interpretation of them is built, is faulty. The fault lies in the fact that there are two very different kinds of salvation, not one. This is stated very clearly in Jn 5:24 by the word 'AND' which makes that verse conditional on two fronts, not one. We have to 'Hear' His word, AND we have to 'Believe' in Him.

The error is in NOT 'hearing' the word, which means 'doing' the will of GOD. Fundamentalists accept the second part and ignore the first. The Bible is filled with verses about 'doing' the will of GOD. Those other verses I quoted are from the first kind, or 'Objective Salvation. Jesus Christ did in fact redeem all men by his sacrifice on the cross. He paid for the sins of all mankind, past, present, and future with His blood. He did His part, but He did not buy each of us a guaranteed foolproof, irrevocable 'ticket' to Heaven as some churches teach. He redeemed us and opened the gates of Heaven and gave us free will to decide for ourselves where we will spend eternity. He fulfilled 'Objective Salvation'. Now we all have to do our part which is called 'Subjective Salvation'. We must DO the will of GOD, and that is called 'Works'. This is spelled out so clearly in Scripture.

Let us start with Phil 2:12, "...Work out your salvation with fear and trembling." How can anyone respond to that one except subjectively? Did Jesus Christ really work it out for you? How about Rom 11:22, "See, then, the goodness and the severity of GOD: His severity toward those who have fallen, but the goodness of GOD toward you if you abide in His goodness, otherwise you also will be cut off." That says keep GOD's commandments or you will not make it to Heaven, and will be cut off. Then see 1Cor 9:27, "I chastise my body and bring it into subjection, lest perhaps after preaching to others I myself should be rejected." Paul himself, teaching that even he, with all of his faith, could still be rejected.

Look at Lk 6:46, "But why do you call Me Lord, Lord, and do not do the things that I say? Doing the things which Jesus Christ says to do is 'works'.

Heb 11:39-40, "And all these, though they had been approved by the testimony of faith, did not receive what was promised, for GOD had something better in view for us; so that they should not be perfected without us."

Rev 2:26, "And to him who overcomes, and who keeps my works unto the end, I will give authority over the nations."

Open your Bible to Acts 5:29-32... But Peter and the Apostles answered and said, "We must obey GOD rather than men...(32) and we are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom GOD has given to all who obey him." Those verses are unmistakable that we have to do our part by obeying the commandments of GOD.

Then there is the dreaded (by Protestants) Jam 2:14-26 which starts with (14) "What will it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith, but does not have Works? Can the faith save him?...(17) So faith too, unless it has Works, is dead in itself...(20) Faith without Works is useless...(21) Was not Abraham our father justified by Works when he offered up Isaac his son upon the altar? (22) Do you not see that Faith worked along with his Works, and by the Works the faith was made perfect?...(24) You see that by Works a man is justified, and not by faith only....(26) For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so, Faith also without Works is Dead." 'Subjective Salvation' in action, is shown for that whole section written by St. James. I could go on and on with verses like this, and could ask questions such as, why is there a need for the ten commandments, since we are 'automatically saved'? I think you get the message from what I have shown.

Read Matt 25:31:46. It is all about doing good works in this life. Then there is Rev 14:13, "And I heard a voice from Heaven saying, 'Write: blessed are the dead who die in the Lord henceforth. Yes, says the Spirit, let them rest from their labors, for their works follow them.'" Is that clear enough that works are needed in addition to faith? Still not convinced? Then how about another crystal clear verse? Rev 22:12, "Behold, I come quickly! And My reward is with Me, to render to each one according to his works."


how exactly will the Church (and what church specifically?) save anyone? do you have any reason to hope in the church to save you?
is pope john paul reserving a seat for you somewhere in the after life? is pope benedict going to call up god on this red telephone they've got in the vatican and say "psst... since you can't tell from up there, I'm just calling to let you know that john is an O-Kay guy and this peter fella is evil... don't let him in.."
Please define how a natural institution such as the church facilitates something supernatural such as one's salvation?


Again, don't forget the authority of the Church given to Her by Christ, her bride-groom.  And on Peter, "upon this rock, I will build my Church."  Lest you forget.
Here's something you should read.
Authority of the Church/Pope

Charity
everybody agrees its good to be generous, its good to help those in need etc. Mother theresa exemplified this extraordinarily. Those who perform charitable works on earth deserve recognition. that said... is this the logic behind Charity as a saviour? how can Charity save me if i'm a poor widow.
who are the poor supposed to be charitable towards? if you are a 3 year old orphan, being taken care of by an 8 year old, and you eat anything you can to survive, literally have nothing... how is charity to help you... doesnt it apply to everybody? i suppose we should tell this young man or lady that they have to give up their only meal this weak to somebody else... but then that person must give it away also... in fact, nobody in impoverished countries can keep anything, because they'd have to give away everything they ever had to become charitable...
on a percentage scale then, am i supposed to make myself impoverished to that degree just so that i am equally as charitable?


Ever heard of the beatitudes?  If not, need to read some more.  Even more so, the poor, being as poor as they are, they should be rich in spirit and prayer.  That is how one shows charity towards others if one was not wealthy.  Don't limit the word charity to physical works.  You should realize that in Catholicism, charity goes beyond giving what is of the material, but moves into the immaterial, which is prayer.

please explain to me how Christs death and resurrection and my belief that this event is enough to save me on its own is wrong. Describe to me where in the bible is even remotely suggests that IT IS NOT ENOUGH.
i'll show you verses that back up my belief if you need them, but even logic shows that i dont need to look elsewhere.


I've already addressed this above.  Furthermore, having faith that such event occur does not save you because you have to accept salvation.


-------
I always live in the past, the present is not not, the future is not yet, therfore only the past.
 


Posts: 84 | Posted: 2:30 PM on April 24, 2005 | IP
Carns

|      |       Report Post




Member
Post Score
Adjustment:
n/a

Rate this post:

Okay... I'm thrilled that you have chosen to include oodles of bible verses in your response. you ought to be commended on your effort.
it's fairly obvious that you're roman catholic, and i am protestant.. not personally, but thats my upbringing.
now, let's start off on the right foot here by saying i do not in any way want to promote disunity in the body of christ or his church. i don't want this thread to become a rc vs prot debate... although we may discuss things of a minor nature down the road...
first of all, in order to establish a unity and accord between the two of us (and any others) let's come up with some things we can agree on.

fair enough?

i'll start the trend by thanking you on your explanation of charity in the poor. A well thought out and biblically sound response.
this is not restricted to catholicism, however.
we agree on this point.

now i know that in playing a skeptic in my last post, i haven't actually stated any beliefs, just questions, so what would you have to go on for what my beliefs are.. well i believe the bible. cover to cover. i believe jesus was the Son of God, that he came, bearing or becoming sin and died for us, rising on the third day that we can all be saved... i should have just quoted some bible there, but you get the point.
i do not believe in eternal salvation, although i know many do, and unfortunately are led astray. It is not all protestants who believe this.

okay.. that's enough for now. short posts are easier to read and respond to








-------
Inherent Freedom For All
 


Posts: 95 | Posted: 10:38 PM on April 24, 2005 | IP
got_dooie

|      |       Report Post




Member
Post Score
Adjustment:
n/a

Rate this post:

i'll start the trend by thanking you on your explanation of charity in the poor. A well thought out and biblically sound response.
this is not restricted to catholicism, however.
we agree on this point


I appreciate this and likewise and agreed upon the point of charity not exclusive to Catholics only.

please explain to me how Christs death and resurrection and my belief that this event is enough to save me on its own is wrong. Describe to me where in the bible is even remotely suggests that IT IS NOT ENOUGH.
i'll show you verses that back up my belief if you need them, but even logic shows that i dont need to look elsewhere.


You obviously stated your belief and rejected the authority of the Church by saying that faith (in Christ) alone, i.e. sola fides, in itself, holds salvation.  I merely pointed out to you that what the bible (which you say you believe from cover to cover) says.

okay.. that's enough for now. short posts are easier to read and respond to


You asked, I merely responded.

(Edited by got_dooie 4/25/2005 at 12:14 AM).


-------
I always live in the past, the present is not not, the future is not yet, therfore only the past.
 


Posts: 84 | Posted: 11:58 PM on April 24, 2005 | IP
    
[ Single page for this topic ]

Topic Jump
« Back | Next »
[ Single page for this topic ]
Forum moderated by: admin
    

Topic options: Lock topic | Unlock topic | Make Topic Sticky | Remove Sticky | Delete thread | Move thread | Merge thread

 

© YouDebate.com
Powered by: ScareCrow version 2.12
© 2001 Jonathan Bravata. All rights reserved.