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       Made up or real?

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TommyHolly

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My Girlfriend and I have been arguing about this one for a while, (and she's not even Catholic?!?)

From everything I have ever read or people I have talked to, I have thought that "Purgatory" was made up by the Catholic Church in the 13th or 14th century as a way to improve thier income.

For those of you that don't know too much about it, this is how it works.  You and your loved ones don't quite make it to Heaven if you don't donate enough money to the Church.  You get stuck in "Purgatory" and like many steps in a stairway, you have to buy your way up this stairway to Heaven.  (AKA: Led Zepplin's "Stairway to Heaven")  If you, and your family, don't give enough you just sit there and rot between Heaven and Hell in this nowhere land.

I can't find anything that says this was the way it has always been.  Everything I find says it was made up.  (BUT! I am not including priests, pastors, or clerics mentioning it in thier sermons.  I want to see it written down as a cold hard fact.)
 


Posts: 7 | Posted: 08:02 AM on March 7, 2005 | IP
TommyHolly

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[color=navy]Comon' anybody?

I'm surprised that not even a search on this forum even turned up anything...
 


Posts: 7 | Posted: 01:50 AM on March 9, 2005 | IP
got_dooie

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If you want it as a "cold hard fact" you might as well dismiss heaven, hell and the state of the soul.  And since we can't prove any we shouldn't believe it?  No.  The church did not make it up, she simply taught it as an infalacy and when the pope teaches something that is infalable it is held true in heaven as well.  Therefore in the pope teaching that purgatory exists, it is held true as the word of the Lord on earth.


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I always live in the past, the present is not not, the future is not yet, therfore only the past.
 


Posts: 84 | Posted: 12:22 PM on March 16, 2005 | IP
Carns

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this theology obviously comes from Matthew 16:19 and 18:18. What are the limit's of such infallability... i'm assuming the RC church at least has the sense to be sure that the pope can't say anything contrary to the Bible... i mean, since what he says on earth is bound in heaven simultaneously, that is quite a dangerous 'power' potentially...  Could somebody please outline this theology for me so i dont live in fear of the pope binding or loosing something he shouldn't have



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Inherent Freedom For All
 


Posts: 95 | Posted: 11:22 PM on April 24, 2005 | IP
Blasphemy

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See signature


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Blasphemy-->"JEHOVAH, JEHOVAH!"
Don't make me sic my god on you!
There is no hell. There is only France
-Frank Zappa
 


Posts: 95 | Posted: 6:44 PM on January 15, 2006 | IP
EMyers

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Its only been in the last few hundred years that the Roman Catholic position held the pope to be infallible.  Secondly, their is no mention of purgatory in the bible.  It is mentioned in the book of Maccabees (sp?) which is the only reason that the Catholic version of the Bible carries this book.  


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 9:36 PM on January 15, 2006 | IP
Blasphemy

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I hate catholics, protestants, white people, yellow people, black people, brown people, red people, purple people (especially purple people eaters), green people, gays, straights, demons, angels, butterlies, frogs, cantelopes, and coconuts...

But ya know what I hate most of All?

I hate everything I created so I'm gonna slap a death warrant on the whole lot!

That'll teach them friggin Unicorns and Elves that keep on blowin out my France fire.

ALL MIGHTY NON-EXISTANT LORD OF EVERYTHING INCLUDING FLIES, AND SMALL LITTLE CREATURES THAT LIVE JUST BELOW THE CAVES OF THE CREATURES THAT LIVE IN TEMPURATE ZONES OF THE DEEP NORTH SEA.

France, I named everything, how do you expect me to keep up with it all.

Never mind, I forgot I was all powerful (other than a nightlight. I like to sleep with a nightlight).

-GOSH BLESS YOU-


-------
Blasphemy-->"JEHOVAH, JEHOVAH!"
Don't make me sic my god on you!
There is no hell. There is only France
-Frank Zappa
 


Posts: 95 | Posted: 11:28 PM on January 16, 2006 | IP
zerocool_12790

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TommyHolly,


Purgatory was indeed made up in the minds of Roman Catholics centuries after the NT was written.

Essentially every single Catholic (since they're the only ones who make it to heaven with few exceptions) will die with unforgiven and unconfessed sin (since you never know when you're going to die, chances are most people won't have time to have all their sins confessed). Those that die in this state go to purgatory. You can't enter heaven unless all your sins are forgiven. You gain forgiveness (in the Roman Catholic view) by confessing to a priest, and performing acts of penance (repenting). By repenting you essentially "work off" your sins as much as you possibly can, aside from Jesus already doing most of the work for you. Since you didn't have time to perform penance if you die with unconfessed sin, then you must "wait" in purgatory and each passing moment you "work off" the sin that remains in you until you are pure. Loved ones can buy indulgences or pray for you "interceed" on your behalf and speed up the process because they are helping you "work off" your sin.

The Protestants rightly saw that the idea of purgatory cuts to the heart of Jesus' sacrifice in the first place which is why they flatly denied purgatory right at the beginning of the Reformation. Jesus said "it is finished" on the cross meaning that all the "work" to pay off sin was done by Him and you can't do anything "on top of" what He did to "work off" your sin. That's why Protestants believe in the 3 Solas. Sola Fide, Sola Gracia, and Sola Scriptura (By Faith alone, by Grace alone, By Scripture alone respectively).

Either Jesus paid for all your sins, and there's nothing you can do about it, or purgatory is real and Jesus is a very impotent savior needing "your" help to complete the process.

Hope this helped.

best wishes,


zerocool_12790


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---There is a common belief rapidly spreading, which states that scientists are unquestionably ethical and objective. This is a gross myth that must be stopped before scientists claim itís true.
 


Posts: 37 | Posted: 06:27 AM on March 17, 2006 | IP
serp

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Quote from Carns at 11:22 PM on April 24, 2005 :
this theology obviously comes from Matthew 16:19 and 18:18. What are the limit's of such infallability... i'm assuming the RC church at least has the sense to be sure that the pope can't say anything contrary to the Bible... i mean, since what he says on earth is bound in heaven simultaneously, that is quite a dangerous 'power' potentially... †Could somebody please outline this theology for me so i dont live in fear of the pope binding or loosing something he shouldn't have




Very simply, in Matt. 16:19 Jesus addressed Peter because he was in a certain sense the "heart center" for the church at that time.  He was giving Peter a sense of the power that not only he had but all Christians have.  The fact that Jesus says it again in 18:18 emphasizes that all Christians have the same spiritual power.  What is this power?  The power through the holy ghost to discern whether or not a certain teaching on earth is true.  If the Holy Ghost moves one to reject a teaching on earth, i.e. "loose on earth", it is also rejected in heaven, i.e. "loosed in heaven."  If the Holy Ghost moves one to accept a teaching on earth, i.e. "bind on earth", it is also accepted in heaven, i.e. "bound in heaven."  Jesus reaffirms that this power is given to all Christian pairs (who indeed have the Holy Ghost) in 18:19.

Obviously, some such as the Pope may claim to have the Holy Ghost (and consequently this power of pair agreement) when in fact they don't.  Since I believe that all religious institutions are grossly darkened, I suspect that very few on the earth have the holy ghost.  In the end the knowledge of "who has what" is a private matter the truth of which is known only to those with the Holy Ghost.


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All truth is found within the
healthy soul.
 


Posts: 48 | Posted: 3:57 PM on March 18, 2006 | IP
EMyers

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1) The specific instances are only addressed to the Apostles (once to Peter by himself, and another time to the Apostles as a whole, there is no mention of this statement being given to any other Christian or group of Christians)

2) The tense in the original (which doesn't come across well in English) implies that what Peter or the Apostles stated (loosed or bound) by revelation of the Holy Spirit was ALREADY done in heaven.  

3)  Revelations, prophecies, miraculous healings, etc... were fortold in the Bible to have an end.  That end has already come and neither the "Pope" or any other so called religious leader can say otherwise.  Their is NO biblical support for a religious "leader" here on the earth.

4) Bishops (also known as pastors or elders, depending upon the Greek word used in various references) are men who were required to be "husbands of one wives" and who had children who were well thought of.  No one who could not lead their own family was considered to be worthy of leading the local congregation.  Since the Pope (not in the Bible) is picked from the Cardinals (not in the Bible) who are picked from the Bishops (must be married), we can see that the Pope doesn't follow the Bible in the first place, therefore how much weight can we really give his words.

5)  After all, the term "Father" has only two meanings in the Bible.  Biological ("honor your father and mother") and Spiritual ("call no man father, but He who art in heaven").  Does this mean that your local priest thinks he had sex with your mother or that he is God when he calls himself "father"?  These are just a few of the many problems that can be brought up with Catholic man-made doctrine, but I think that it's enough of a start to show why you needn't have any fear of what the "pope" decides.  After all, just a few hundred years ago the Catholic church DENOUNCED the idea that the Pope was infallible and now it's a basic tenet of their faith.  :P


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 8:39 PM on March 18, 2006 | IP
serp

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Quote from EMyers at 8:39 PM on March 18, 2006 :
1) The specific instances are only addressed to the Apostles (once to Peter by himself, and another time to the Apostles as a whole, there is no mention of this statement being given to any other Christian or group of Christians)

2) The tense in the original (which doesn't come across well in English) implies that what Peter or the Apostles stated (loosed or bound) by revelation of the Holy Spirit was ALREADY done in heaven. †

3) †Revelations, prophecies, miraculous healings, etc... were fortold in the Bible to have an end. †That end has already come and neither the "Pope" or any other so called religious leader can say otherwise. †Their is NO biblical support for a religious "leader" here on the earth.



That sounds kind of discouraging, EMyers.  I continue to hope that two Christians, agreeing and binding their pure desires on earth and in heaven, can change the world through prayer.



-------
All truth is found within the
healthy soul.
 


Posts: 48 | Posted: 12:08 AM on March 19, 2006 | IP
zerocool_12790

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Serp,

You wrote:
"Since I believe that all religious institutions are grossly darkened...."


-Please define the word "institution" and then please define and list a few "religious institutions."

-Then please explain your reasoning as to why "all" religious institutions are "grossly darkened" and why you are immune to this darkness.

Thank you.


best wishes,


zerocool_12790


-------
---There is a common belief rapidly spreading, which states that scientists are unquestionably ethical and objective. This is a gross myth that must be stopped before scientists claim itís true.
 


Posts: 37 | Posted: 05:53 AM on March 19, 2006 | IP
EMyers

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That sounds kind of discouraging, EMyers.  I continue to hope that two Christians, agreeing and binding their pure desires on earth and in heaven, can change the world through prayer.


I think you are confusing the point.  We all change the world.  We do not, however, have the ability to "force" God to accept something just because two Christians who think they are doing something which is right and agree with each other on it have decided that it is correct.  Hundreds of thousand, if not millions of people thought that they could buy indulgences to relieve them of their sins.  Many of them were sincere in their beliefs.  That doesn't mean that you're going leave Hades on the judgment day and stand before God and He's gonna say, "Yep, looks like you spent enough cash on that St. Peter's Basillica thing to get you into heaven."  Read Matthew 7:22-23.  


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 4:22 PM on March 19, 2006 | IP
serp

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Zerocool:  By "institution" I mean those who claim they have a special authority in god through institutional "ordination," etc.  I did not say I was not completely "immune from this darkness" either.  But rather through time the Spirit has moved me to believe that informal associations between believers represents the true modern church and institutional religion is just Babylon.

EMeyers: I don't think I am confusing the point, I believe you are.  My point is that Matthew 16:19, 18:18,19 in essence refer to the same thing as Matthew 21:22, John 14:13,14.  Though I do believe that God's priority in the expression of gifts has changed, spiritual gifts are still available to believers with the holy ghost.  The only way anyone can hope to know for themselves what teachings are true or false is as the holy ghost leads through scripture.  Without the holy ghost, scripture is molested and twisted for every purpose under the sun.  The majority have ignored or twisted the word of god because they have been destined to do so.


-------
All truth is found within the
healthy soul.
 


Posts: 48 | Posted: 07:53 AM on March 20, 2006 | IP
EMyers

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Serp, you do realize that the Holy Spirit was only given through the laying on of the Apostle's hands, right?  Except for Pentecost, of course, when it was given to the Apostles and when it was given to a group of Gentiles in front of Peter to show that Gentiles were also under grace.  You also realize that all spiritual gifts were predicted, in the Bible, to have an end and that the end of those gifts has come, right?

The only way anyone can hope to know for themselves what teachings are true or false is as the holy ghost leads through scripture.

And here I thought we were told to "search the Scriptures daily" to decide whether things were true.  I guess all of the people who do not believe in God or who misconstrue the word of God can now blame it on God because the Holy Ghost wasn't in them to interpret it for them.  You've just moved all responsibility from us to God.  I don't think you can find that in the bible.


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 10:15 AM on March 20, 2006 | IP
serp

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Emyers,

Scripture is obviously useful for growth, correction, edification, etc as a Christian.  But scripture doesn't give you the life which is in Christ, i.e. "Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.  And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life."  "Learning" scripture is not enough.  You are seriously mistaken if you think the holy ghost is not needed to be a born again Christian per John 3.  Maybe you need to be born again in Christ through the Holy Ghost, so you can be a partaker of the life which is in Christ (and really understand scripture)?

The Holy Ghost fell on me one day when I was reading a Christian book.  You have not read my testimony in the spirit and light of Jesus Christ?

"And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed."

God holds us accountable to that which we have received.  If we receive the clarity of truth in scripture then God will give us the Holy Ghost for one because he says so in scripture(besides my personal testimony of it).  Perhaps one reason people don't receive the Holy Ghost is because they are turned away by the many unholy spirits "preaching scripture and Jesus."

Who knows the fate of them who haven't yet received the Holy Ghost?  If they don't receive the Holy Ghost by the first resurrection, then they will face God's decision of their fate during the general resurrection.  God is just.


-------
All truth is found within the
healthy soul.
 


Posts: 48 | Posted: 11:07 AM on March 20, 2006 | IP
EMyers

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The Holy Ghost fell on me one day when I was reading a Christian book.  You have not read my testimony in the spirit and light of Jesus Christ?


That's odd, I can't find any other instance in the bible that shows anyone receiving the "gift of the Holy Ghost" before baptism.  Nor can I find any instance of anyone (outside of the previously mentioned instances) receiving miraculous powers (prophecy, tongues, etc) without having the Apostles lay their hands on them.  Hmmm, I wonder what makes you so special in the last 2000 years.  And please, don't tell me you are one of those people who follow that everytime the bible says "the spirit" it means Holy Spirit.  After all, the verse says "That whichs is born of THE flesh is flesh; and that which is born of THE spirit is spirit."  Does that mean that "flesh" needs to be some capitalized word that refers to some greater fleshly body just because it follows "the"?  No, of course not.  Neither does it mean that being born of the spirit (being mindful of spiritual things) means being BORN of the Holy Spirit.  You can't even read it in context and come up with that understanding.  There are millions of people out there that think that somehow the Holy Spirit is broken up into millions of tiny pieces and a part of it lives in each of us.  Of course there are verses that say that Christ lives in us and verses that say that the Father lives in us and verses that say that we live in Christ or the Father.  Why do we take those verses figuratively, but somehow believe that the "spirit" verses are literal?  Usually, because someone "told us that's what it meant".  Try reading it for yourself.  Better yet, get a good Greek lexicon and Greek bible and see how often where English versions say "the Spirit" while Greek versions just say "SPIRIT" (no lowercase letters in Greek).  "The" is usually inserted when some translator "thinks" that it means "Holy Spirit".  You can't believe that the Holy Spirit "lives in you" unless you also believe that Jesus and the Father "live in you" as well.  Otherwise, you have to realize that the saying is figurative and that the "gift of the Holy Spirit" was his "seal".  Can't have it both ways.


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 12:32 PM on March 20, 2006 | IP
zerocool_12790

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EMyers,

Your dialogue between Serp and yourself has gotten me confused about which of you believes what. So in an effort to help myself understand what you are saying more clearly, I will have to ask you a question to which I will humbly await your reply.

Question: Do you believe that all born-again believers literally have the Holy Spirit indwelt in them? Please explain why or why not.


-------
---There is a common belief rapidly spreading, which states that scientists are unquestionably ethical and objective. This is a gross myth that must be stopped before scientists claim itís true.
 


Posts: 37 | Posted: 11:17 PM on March 21, 2006 | IP
serp

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Emyers,

As a born again Christian, I must believe that the persons of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost dwell within me simultaneously.  If the Holy Ghost dwells in me (and I believe he does) then the Father and Word dwell in me as well.  The Holy Ghost doesn't need to be "cut up into little pieces" to do this.  God is one Spirit and three persons.  The Spirit of God is everywhere present but only personally involved in the spirits of born again Christians.  



-------
All truth is found within the
healthy soul.
 


Posts: 48 | Posted: 8:10 PM on March 22, 2006 | IP
mythrandir

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a bunch of questions-
1. emyers, do you believe that christians receive the Holy Spirit?
2. serp, do you belive that the established church is wrong?
3. someone catholic, what if the pope says his authority is greater than the bible's?
4. serp and emyers, how do you define spiritual gifts?
 


Posts: 79 | Posted: 1:49 PM on April 20, 2006 | IP
    
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