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solid_goat

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God is the all knowing creator of the universe.


All knowing means that he knows everything.


Knowing everything would entail knowing the path of every single atom from the begging to the end of time.


Creating the universe means that he created and set into motion every single atom in the universe.


All knowing creator of the universe means that god created and sent every single atom into motion knowing before hand the path that each one would take from the begging to the end of time.


Therefore god is responsible for every action in the universe, because sent every atom into motion knowing what they where going to do.  


If god is the all knowing creator of the universe he knew the path that every single person would walk before he created the universe.


If god is responsible for every action in the universe then he is responsible for the actions of every single human being past present and future.


If god created the universe the path of every single atom was predetermined because he knew what paths they would take before ever creating the universe.


If the path of every single atom is predetermined then destiny is absolute.


If god created the universe every single thing I do was predetermined.


If my destiny is absolute and intentional, I have no choice over my path.


If I have no choice over my path then I am incapable of sin.


If I can not sin then I can’t go to hell.


If I can not sin then Jesus is not my savior.


If I can not sin then Christianity is nothing more then a necessary lie.


Kyle

 


Posts: 2 | Posted: 4:54 PM on April 14, 2005 | IP
got_dooie

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Hah! if you think that's clever, you should retake intro. to logics.  First of all, being omniscient has nothing to do with predetermination AT ALL.  And secondly, creating something and setting it into motion in no way predetermines it to behave in a certain way.  I can create a lump of ball out of the snow and throw it at someone, but I in no way control the way it lands and how it splashes when it hits the person.  Better yet, I in no way control if it hits or not.  

God know what will happen does not determine it to be so.  Example:  I sit on the fifth level of a building and look down.  Where upon I see two cars about to collide.  I can KNOW what will happen next, i.e. the collision.  Aquinas speaks of God as this King who sits on a hill and look down at the universe.  And upon looking, everything from the beginning until the end happens INSTANTLY, and God sees all, yet does not intend all.  This is not to say that he couldn't, but he doesn't because he gives us freewill.  

Argument invalid! Better luck next time.


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I always live in the past, the present is not not, the future is not yet, therfore only the past.
 


Posts: 84 | Posted: 4:43 PM on April 15, 2005 | IP
solid_goat

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Its not a matter of control, if throw the snow knowing exactly what its going to do after you throw it you are resposable for it. To say that you can not control it, in know way way deminishes your responsability for it. If it did you could go shoot some one in the head and say it was not your fault because the bullet was not in your possetion when it killed the person.

Secondly, you are correct in saying that omniscients, by it self, has no bearing on predertermination but it does when it is combined with intent and action. Intent is a default with omniscients for no action taken can be a mistake when you know all. So, if god created the univers (action) knowing exactly what it would do he is responsable for it just as I would be held responsable for shooting someone in the head (action) knowing it would kill them. And the time is predetermined.

Third, the fifth floor analagy dosn't really apply. When you sit on the fifth floor of a building and look down on the car accident you had nothing to do with it. you are a truely impartial observer. In gods case, at the begging of time he set into motion a chain of events knowing that one day it would lead to that car accident. god crashed those cars it just took a long time to get there.

If god is the all knowing creater of the univers we do not have free will


 


Posts: 2 | Posted: 5:22 PM on April 15, 2005 | IP
got_dooie

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Its not a matter of control, if throw the snow knowing exactly what its going to do after you throw it you are resposable for it. To say that you can not control it, in know way way deminishes your responsability for it. If it did you could go shoot some one in the head and say it was not your fault because the bullet was not in your possetion when it killed the person.


Causing the action does not entail reponsibility of the free will.  Example.  I let my dog loose for a day.  The dog wanders and bites people.  According to law, I am responsible for setting the dog lose, but I am not responsible for having my dog bite the people.  There are two types of responsibilities here.  For lack of terms, I will call one of cause and the other is of intention.  God causing men to have free will does not entail that reponsibility is upon Him for man's actions.  From an ethical proof, one would argue as such:
We are held responsible for our actions, because when we say "I can do otherwise" we realize that, we very well could have done otherwise.  We exempt the insane or the child, because we believe them devoid of moral freedom and determined inevitably by the motives which happened to act on them. So true is this, that determinists have had to admit that the meaning of these terms will, according to their view, have to be changed. But this is to admit that their theory is in direct conflict with universal psychological facts. It thereby stands disproved. Again, it may be urged that, if logically followed out, the determinist doctrine would annihilate human morality, consequently that such a theory cannot be true.

Third, the fifth floor analagy dosn't really apply. When you sit on the fifth floor of a building and look down on the car accident you had nothing to do with it. you are a truely impartial observer. In gods case, at the begging of time he set into motion a chain of events knowing that one day it would lead to that car accident. god crashed those cars it just took a long time to get there.


You pointed to the heart of the argument.  Knowing doed not entail that one has anything to do with such incident.  By knowing, I am free to see the future, i.e. the car accident, but I am in no way the cause or effect o such accident.  God does not control the free will of the people driving to go however fast it is that they are going.  Neither does He control if one of them should stop before the accident happens.

Here is an excerp from the Catholic Encyclopedia's argument for free will:

As the main features of the doctrine of free will have been sketched in the history of the problem, a very brief account of the argument for moral freedom will now suffice. Will viewed as a free power is defined by defenders of free will as the capacity of self-determination. By self is here understood not a single present mental state (James), nor a series of mental states (Hume and Mill), but an abiding rational being which is the subject and cause of these states. We should distinguish between:

1.  spontaneous acts, those proceeding from an internal principle (e.g. the growth of plants and impulsive movements of animals);

2.  voluntary acts in a wide sense, those proceeding from an internal principle with apprehension of an end (e.g. all conscious desires); and, finally

3.  those voluntary in the strict sense, that is, deliberate or free acts.

In such, there is a self-conscious advertence to our own causality or an awareness that we are choosing the act, or acquiescing in the desire of it. Spontaneous acts and desires are opposed to coaction or external compulsion, but they are not thereby morally free acts. They may still be the necessary outcome of the nature of the agent as, e.g. the actions of lower animals, of the insane, of young children, and many impulsive acts of mature life. The essential feature in free volition is the element of choice--the vis electiva, as St. Thomas calls it. There is a concomitant interrogative awareness in the form of the query "shall I acquiesce or shall I resist? Shall I do it or something else?", and the consequent acceptance or refusal, ratification or rejection, though either may be of varying degrees of completeness. It is this act of consent or approval, which converts a mere involuntary impulse or desire into a free volition and makes me accountable for it. A train of thought or volition deliberately initiated or acquiesced in, but afterward continued merely spontaneously without reflective advertence to our elective adoption of it, remains free in causa, and I am therefore responsible for it, though actually the process has passed into the department of merely spontaneous or automatic activity. A large part of the operation of carrying out a resolution, once the decision is made, is commonly of this kind. The question of free will may now be stated thus. "Given all the conditions requisite for eliciting an act of will except the act itself, does the act necessarily follow?" Or, "Are all my volitions the inevitable outcome of my character and the motives acting on me at the time?" Fatalists, necessarians, determinists say "Yes". Libertarians, indeterminists or anti-determinists say "No. The mind or soul in deliberate actions is a free cause. Given all the conditions requisite for action, it can either act or abstain from action. It can, and sometimes does, exercise its own causality against the weight of character and present motives.


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I always live in the past, the present is not not, the future is not yet, therfore only the past.
 


Posts: 84 | Posted: 12:19 AM on April 19, 2005 | IP
Blasphemy

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got_doie

You argue from an Encyclopedia that is biased towards Christianity. Therefore, irrespective of the position you have taken, or how intelligent your argument may sound, it is biased towards Christianity.




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Blasphemy-->"JEHOVAH, JEHOVAH!"
Don't make me sic my god on you!
There is no hell. There is only France
-Frank Zappa
 


Posts: 95 | Posted: 2:24 PM on January 15, 2006 | IP
EMyers

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It's a moot argument.  God gave us free will and we want to point the finger at him for allowing us to choose for ourselves and say it His fault.  If God had not given us free will then what would the point of existence be in the first place.  We'd be automotons and nothing more.  And you don't need an encylopedia to see that.


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 2:56 PM on January 15, 2006 | IP
Blasphemy

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Wait a minute.

You said the god gave us freewill. Then why was he always telling "his" people to kill other people (synonymous for "punishing the wicked"). That sounds like directing to me.

Now either he gave us free will, or he did not.

And the bible clearly states that this god  knows everything from the start. He is the Alpha and Omega, the beggining and the end.

I'm not sure how we even make sense of this. The logical argument that Alex gave, while maybe being a logic trap still begs the question:

Is this god all powerful or not? Now if he's all powerful, why hasn't he put a stop to all of the horrors inflicted on man? Why does he let it continue thousand and thousands of years?

Either he is incapable of fixing the problem, does not want to fix the problem, or does not know about the problem.

To say that an all powerful god would allow evil to even manifest itself is ridiculous. All this talk about how we have to suffer and wait for the return of christ is nonsense.


Either way, it's not a very loving characteristic for a god to let his creation suffer.

I once heard someone tell me, I think it was a Jehovah's Witness, that the reason god was letting mankind suffer was because he was trying to prove a point to the evil satan. The story was that satan reared up against god and thought he was better than god, but god threw his ass out of heaven and made him live on earth until such a time that this little devil figured out that he couldn't run mankind. So in the meantime, the devil guy is causing all the sin and disease and all the bad stuff, just long enough for the god to prove his point that he's all powerful. Once the god has enough, he grabs hold of that little devil and cast in him to a lake of fire. And all of us puny little humans that have lived for a mere hundred years or less on our 6 Billion year old planet, will then either be rewarded by living in paradise on a new earth (OK, so something went wrong with the first one), or, if we did bad stuff and refused to believe the myth, then we are going to be burned forever and ever, and no water or fire extinuishers will be made available.

Yeah, I'm gonna carry this sensless neurosis around with me. NOT!


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Blasphemy-->"JEHOVAH, JEHOVAH!"
Don't make me sic my god on you!
There is no hell. There is only France
-Frank Zappa
 


Posts: 95 | Posted: 09:39 AM on January 16, 2006 | IP
EMyers

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Chuckle.  You've answered your own question.  Because we have free will then we are free whether or not to choose to do his will.  God gave us lots of directions.  The fact that there is suffering in the world is proof that we have the capacity to choose not to follow his instructions.  The reason He has allowed this all to go on so long is that he is a longsuffering God.  He wants everyone to have the opportunity to change their ways and come back to Him.  Every day He gives you is another opportunity for YOU to believe and be saved.  Eventually He will decide that enough is enough.  The fact that He is more patient than YOU shows your humanity and not his lack of deity.


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 12:35 PM on January 16, 2006 | IP
Blasphemy

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"God gave us lots of directions."

Yes, specifically "Slaughter at my command".

"The fact that there is suffering in the world is proof that we have the capacity to choose not to follow his instructions."

The fact that there is suffering in the world has nothing to do with me following instructions. Even if I follow every instruction to the letter, I'm still going to get sick, and just as everyone else I will have pain and suffering at some point in life. Even if I am the spitting image of what he wants me to be, I'm still gonna be slapped with original sin making me die.

"The reason He has allowed this all to go on so long is that he is a longsuffering God."

Well if he was suffering then I'd say more power to him. However, the only suffering I see is here on the earth.


According to the bible, I'm still going to die.

"He wants everyone to have the opportunity to change their ways and come back to Him."

Well, I'd be happy to make him happy, but I'm still slapped with that derned original sin. In other words, no matter what I do I fall short.

"The fact that He is more patient than YOU shows your humanity and not his lack of deity"

I beg to differ. I am human and need no proof of that. However, I will require proof of a supernatural god that doesn't exist.

Now, here's my favorite bible catch-all. If I don't believe, I'm gonna burn in France.

If I say I will believe it as long as you prove it, I'm gonna burn in France because I'm trrying to tempt this god.

If I believe everything on blind faith, and I reject scientific evidence, because it doesn't fit my mythology (and throughout the bible we are told how the wise person is really the fool, because he doesn't believe). That's right. I have to reject the laws of physics. I have to believe without any proof that a supernatural being exists, otherwise I'm gonna burn in France.

This bible catch-all is not limited to the bible, the koran is very much the same. In all cases we are asked to believe on blind faith, and questioning it is absolutely prohibited.

This god has something to hide.



-------
Blasphemy-->"JEHOVAH, JEHOVAH!"
Don't make me sic my god on you!
There is no hell. There is only France
-Frank Zappa
 


Posts: 95 | Posted: 3:28 PM on January 16, 2006 | IP
Oxy-gene

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Knowing doed not entail that one has anything to do with such incident.  By knowing, I am free to see the future, i.e. the car accident, but I am in no way the cause or effect o such accident.  God does not control the free will of the people driving to go however fast it is that they are going.  Neither does He control if one of them should stop before the accident happens.

In fact, He does, if He is seen as an all-powerful, all-knowing entity. We cannot have free will and  all-powerful, all-knowing God at the same time: it'd be self-contradictory.

Let's have an example: person A kills person B. If A has free will, he has made a voluntary decision to kill B.

Now let's assume that God exists, and is all-powerful and all-knowing. He knows, He always has known, and He will always know everything in the whole universe. He is all-powerful too, so He can, has always could, and will always be able to wholly control anything in the whole universe.

God knows that A kills B if he doesn't act in a certain way. He also knows that if He acts in another way, A won't kill B. He knows how to act to make A kill B or not. He can choose which way to act; if He chooses not to act in any way, it can also be considered as an act, because He knows the outcome of that, too. The outcome is ultimately not caused by A's decision, but God's actions.

In fact, God doesn't even have to be all-powerful for free will not to work. If He knows everything, He knows which decision A will make: to kill or not to kill B. If A chooses to kill B, God knows this, and He knows it even before He has created a universe that contains these two persons. If someone knows the outcome of a decision for sure, the decision can't be free. It's determined by fate: an all-knowing entity can't be wrong, and if He knows that A will kill B, then A will kill B.

So it's ultimately God that makes choices, not people. If we really have a free will, then there can't be an all-knowing God.

And if we don't have free will because everything is determined by God, we are not responsible of our actions: God is. This way, it seems a bit cruel if A will go to hell because he killed B.

Hope that made it more clear.


-------
Surprise!
 


Posts: 5 | Posted: 1:54 PM on October 7, 2007 | IP
cjeanean

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Just because God knows all does not get us off the hook for our decisions. The whole point of our existance is for Him (all things were created by Him and for Him). We are here to serve His purpose, and that is to choose for ourselves. Just because He knows what we're gonna choose does not mean He decides for us. He gives us the chance to make our own decisions. What happens if you tell your kid over and over again not to touch the stove? You know what is going to happen if the kid does not listen. The kid continues to try to touch the stove. Finally, you decide to allow the child to learn a lesson. You don't try to stop him when he reaches out, and he burns himself. You have given that child a chance to obey, and he would not listen. He had to learn the hard way. But what if it gets worse? The kid gets burned and still does not learn his lesson? Keeps getting burned, and on top of that tries to get the other kids to disobey and get burned. What do you do? remove the child from the situation. That happens a lot with God. He tells His people not to do something, and they do it anyway. HE WILL NOT STOP YOU FROM HAVING FREE WILL! They don't learn their lesson. There's only so much to put up with before you get taken out of the game. We are responsible for our sin, not God. He created us and set us in motion, and knows the outcome, but will not decide for us. It is a test, not for us, but for Him. IF anyone posts a reply to this I will continue.
 


Posts: 2 | Posted: 02:13 AM on December 2, 2007 | IP
forfunt1

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"God" is an idea invented by humans. There is no god, just as there is no "free will", in any other way then imagined by the human mind. Wake up!


-------
-yo
 


Posts: 163 | Posted: 9:35 PM on December 14, 2007 | IP
TheCman66

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There is a god. it has been proved. Your life is not mapped out like a school play. god knows what will happen in your life but you still hae controll.


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"I can't Fail English! Thats Un-possible!"

Ralph, The Simpson's.
 


Posts: 44 | Posted: 8:39 PM on February 6, 2008 | IP
pwww99

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Guys. It's only simple. God knows what'll happen. Not that he made it. He knows the results but we make it. We make everything happen. He just enters and get involve in your life in some ways but the decision is still for us to take. He just knows what will it be. So we need not to argue about Him ruining or making us worthwhile. For it is us and only Him who knows. Do I make myself clear?
 


Posts: 1 | Posted: 08:04 AM on September 5, 2008 | IP
ArcanaKnight

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There is a god. it has been proved.

That's just not true at all.  Nothing of the sort has ever been proven which is why there are still atheists, agnostics, and people in hundreds of different faiths all over the world.

It is impossible for an all-knowing, all-powerful god to have a plan and for us to have free will.  They are mutually exclusive concepts.  If we truly had free will, then it would be possible for us to do something that goes against god's plan which would mean that he is either not all-knowing (didn't see it coming) or not all-powerful  (couldn't do anything to stop us).  So either he has a plan and we don't have free will, but he just makes us think we do (seems like a pretty deceptive god to me if true) or there isn't a divine plan and we have free will.
 


Posts: 41 | Posted: 08:49 AM on September 5, 2008 | IP
dubie903

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Consider this from the book of Romans.  A book essential to the Christian faith.  I know it sounds harsh, and direct, but I hope it helps us understand God a little better.  He is the creator of all things, all powerful and all knowing.

Rom 9:14 ¶ What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!
Rom 9:15 For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION."
Rom 9:16 So then it {does} not {depend} on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH."
Rom 9:18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
Rom 9:19 ¶ You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?"
Rom 9:20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?
Rom 9:21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?
Rom 9:22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?
Rom 9:23 And {He did so} to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,



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Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.<br>
 


Posts: 43 | Posted: 2:13 PM on September 26, 2008 | IP
ArcanaKnight

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I'm not sure what the point of your post is.  Was it supposed to be evidence showing the existence of god or was it in response to some other post?
 


Posts: 41 | Posted: 4:16 PM on October 5, 2008 | IP
dubie903

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Quote from ArcanaKnight at 4:16 PM on October 5, 2008 :
I'm not sure what the point of your post is.  Was it supposed to be evidence showing the existence of god or was it in response to some other post?


The topic raised was the absolute of destiny.  I believe that destiny is absolute.  And I was trying to provide scriptures from the Bible to support my Christian world view on this topic.  So here are a few more I would like to add.

Ephesians 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 1:5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,

Ephesians 1:11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,

2 Thess 2:13 ¶ But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

Acts 4:28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur.

Rom 9:16 So then it {does} not {depend} on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

(destiny is God's choosing)

Rom 9:18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.


Rom 9:22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?
Rom 9:23 And {He did so} to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,







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Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.<br>
 


Posts: 43 | Posted: 12:09 AM on October 24, 2008 | IP
nkanji

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god gave us free will, thus allowing us to shape our own lives in the way we choose. however, to help us choose the right path, he revealed books and sent prophets to guide us. however, the prophets did not force us to believe. Rather, they showed us the path, and those who chose to belive believed, and those who did not want to believe, did not. If we look at the chastisements on the diferent groups of disbelivers in the past, we se that it is not because they disbelieved in God, but because they mistreated the prophets, who were, in effect, God's creation. mistreating them, by torturing them was not acceptable. hence, we have the free will to believe or disbelieve, but in effect, god has already shown the path for a people who reflect. it is up to us to accept or reject the path.


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Fortune favours the brave, he who hesitates is lost....
 


Posts: 8 | Posted: 1:53 PM on October 27, 2008 | IP
    
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