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Carns

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Okay, in order to make a point, we're going to see if anybody can construct a genealogy (family tree). You can make it up, use a real one, whatever. Here are the rules you have to follow:

1.The number of words you use must be an exact multiple of seven.
2. The number of letters you use must be divisible by seven exactly.
3. The number of vowels you use is to be exactly divisible by seven.
4. The number of words beginning with a vowel you use must be divisible by seven.
5. The number of words that occur more than once must be divisible by seven.
6. The number of words that occur in more than one form must be divisible by seven.
7. The number of nouns must be divisible by seven.
8. The number of names must be divisible by seven and only seven other kinds of nouns are allowed.
9. The number of male names must be divisible by seven.
10. The number of generations must be divisible by seven.

Could you even come up with something like this if you tried? Well Christ's Genealogy in the opening eleven verses of Matthew (in the Greek) does.

ask yourself two questions:
1. What are the ODDS of this occurring in ANYBODIES family tree; furthermore, what are the ODDS of this occurring is CHRIST'S family history (being somebody of historical significance)
2. Would somebody really go to all the bother of fabricating that? What would be the point?

Dr Ivan Panin (a Harvard graduate with a Ph.D in Mathematics) discovered this heptadic (seven-fold) structure used in scripture and over the rest of his life generated over  43,000 pages of research.



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Posts: 95 | Posted: 11:00 PM on May 2, 2005 | IP
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sorry, what's your point exactly? (sorry...i'm a little slow today!)
 


Posts: 292 | Posted: 01:50 AM on May 3, 2005 | IP
Peter87

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It is mathmaticaly possible, even slightly and considering the amount of people there have been to have existed ever is is significantly more possible that it would happen. And well it had to happen to somebody.
Plus the person who made it up could have been incredibly inteligent and spent a significant amount of time on it could have produced such a document.

also, what is your point?


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Why should we bow to the will of anyone? Especialy a man who our country but another voted for?
 


Posts: 301 | Posted: 10:07 AM on May 3, 2005 | IP
Carns

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First of all, if you actually calculate the odds out, its practically impossible,

i dont have a point, this is just one of the reasons why i can believe that the bible is of divine origin. you can't fake that, you can't fabricate it... to have those kind of consistancies over two thirds man's history in length, being penned by this many people... it's not possible to have any other conclusion. human error is too frequent. i didn't post a point by the way, its a challenge to come up with a genealogy with those requirements, when you realize the staggering odds, my point will have been made.


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Posts: 95 | Posted: 4:56 PM on May 3, 2005 | IP
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oh, but you don't realize that christ's genealogy is NOT made up.. its traceable back to ADAM for crying out loud. don't speculate either, it's embarrasing.



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Posts: 95 | Posted: 4:58 PM on May 3, 2005 | IP
Peter87

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PROOF my friend where is your proof?


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Why should we bow to the will of anyone? Especialy a man who our country but another voted for?
 


Posts: 301 | Posted: 5:33 PM on May 3, 2005 | IP
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i can't blame you for being skeptical, i dont expect you to just take my word for it, but i never cease to be amazed at how many times i say "wow" in reading the bible... its phenomenal how so many authors over such a long period of time could produce a work that is so coherent, so tidy, so interconnected... it didn't convince me to become a christian, but its the sort of stuff that makes me so stubborn, i'll never give it up. the bible is more than a book, it's almost alive it's speaks so loud. reading it can be the most amazing experience of your life.. even if you just consider it an old book with some truths in it.. it makes any other book pale in comparison.. you can't read niche and have it speak to you in the same way... i mean, the proof i have is more personal, that we'd really have to get into my life story for my proof. i dont intellectually sit down and say, "ya, this god figure makes a lot of sense, i think i'll read his little book and blindly follow him.." its more like day to day i see proof of his working in my life, i see how much different i am as a person today than a couple years ago, and no, i dont have all the answers, i've only been a christian for... 4 years, but i know i've found something amazing, and everything i see and hear in my personal life, at work, whatever, all lines up with what i read, its amazing to me how much truth i can see about today, but it was written so long ago....

sorry to be so anecdotal, but how can you prove religious claims without discussing personal effect?



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Posts: 95 | Posted: 11:35 PM on May 7, 2005 | IP
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You can't, but you should still be allowed to express your opinion in what is true. As long as you don't attempt to pass your subjective interpretation of the bible as truth, i'm happy. And don't attempt to impose your beliefs on others, as well (which you don't seem to, so that's all good).
 


Posts: 292 | Posted: 03:12 AM on May 8, 2005 | IP
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There is a rather good reason why the bible is coherent Did you know that there were actualy 50 or so acounts of jesus life, but they chose the 4 gospels because they all fitted together well. But I'm not a scholar so I'm not going to go into the bibles coherentcy.


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Why should we bow to the will of anyone? Especialy a man who our country but another voted for?
 


Posts: 301 | Posted: 09:22 AM on May 8, 2005 | IP
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im not a bible scholar either, but the four gospels were not chosen because they fit together well... because they were written by man, those men's perspective influenced the way they viewed Christ and his life...

Matthew: Written by a Jew for the Jews, this book is designed to present Jesus as King of the Jews, the Messiah they were waiting for. Of course, most jews of today do not accept christ as the messiah, Jews who do are considered Messianic Jews (to the best of my knowledge). This book focuses on things Jews would look for, such as Geneaology, Jesus Baptism, his message, his Miracles.. it's designed to be an argument for jews to see Christ as messiah

Mark: Mark presents Jesus as a servant. A seeming contrast to the king presented in matthew, mark shows that christ came to serve, not to be served. This duality present in christ shows us how to behave after his example. of obvious importance to this book, christs death and resurrection shows his life being given a "ransom for many". Christ served us all by dying for us and being resurrected again.

Luke: A physician shows the humanity of christ. This aspect of christs character is central because it helps us see how human he was. Luke's writing's are full of compassion and warmth, showing that christ wasn't simply a godly figure, or simply a servant, but that Christ was motivated by compassion for people. he didn't just come to earth to do a bunch of stuff and then leave.. Luke shows us how to let our Humanity influence our behaviour after christs example.

John: Presents again another contrast of christ's character. The flipside to Luke's proof of Christ's humanity, John shows us that Jesus' also wasn't JUST a man, he was also the son of God. JOhn's focus on presenting christ as God is to show us the authority with which christ acted out his life. it's designed to spark belief, and grow faith in the beleiver.

Like 4 testimonies at a court trial, these four eye witness accounts are the best summary available to show at a minimum the needed evidence to demonstrate all of who christ was.

again to summarize what they show:

Matthew: Christ as Messiah, King of the Jews.
Mark: Christ as a Servant, Our Saviour
Luke: Christ's Humanity
John: Christ's Deity


Hopefully this helps you understand why those particular accounts were "chosen" at best, they could be described as a minimum.. if you were to leave one out, we'd be missing a conclusive argument designed to show a very important aspect of Christ.

Of course, not all "christians" behave in his example, but your faith shouldn't be influenced by the wayward or misguided, but by the faithful and true. I couldn't stand christians growing up, i figured they were just blind sheep like many say. Then after a series of events, i turned to the gospels and figured that i'd read about jesus even just as an important figure in historical context... it quickly became more than that, and the gospels were the LARGEST impact on my becoming a christian since Christ's example was so impacting. I suggest you read even just one of them to get a better idea of what christians are supposed to model our lives after. So many people model their lives after their own ideals instead of christ, and it's obvious who they are once you read eye witness accounts.



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Posts: 95 | Posted: 6:32 PM on May 10, 2005 | IP
Lord Iorek

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You do know Carns that the Bible (Gensis 5 and for a while afterward) says that the descendants of Adam lived for hundreds of years how real is that

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

(I don't mean to offend you I just thought that if talking of Biblical family trees I may poin this out.) Go ahead read it


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"At the age of six I wanted to be a cook. At seven I wanted to be Napoleon. And my ambition has been growing steadily ever since." - Salvador Dali

Guide the future by the past, long ago the mould was cast. - Rush
 


Posts: 121 | Posted: 9:52 PM on May 20, 2005 | IP
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well, i believe that they did live that long, i believe that pre-flood conditions supported longevity of life to that degree. is it really so improbable that the worlds conditions have changed over time? do you really think that our current world climate and atmosphere is the best it could be, and that we wouldn't live longer under different conditions? i mean, its completely possible, whereas the probability of life arising spontaneously from non-life is zero. now i know you quantum physics "buffs" are going to say that everything is possible. and i would agree that everything is possible - with god, but not randomly, not by chance. god created life from non-living matter, intentionally, and we were placed in a world where we wouldn't die, but we ruined it, and the world is slowly winding down, everything is going into a state of disorginazation, there will be an ever increasing amount of genetic imperfections, the atmosphere will continue to deteriorate, etc. nothing improves or get's better without struggle or death, and this is not the way it was meant to be, it's the way it is now. This is not any proof that these conditions are what existed on the 7th day. the 7th day world was perfect, and remained so until the fall of man. The world changed due to the flood. All of these things make sense to me, and as humerous as it is to you, it is infinitely more likely than spontaneous life. in any case... this forum is religion, not creation/evolution.. sooo...

Back to my point.... there is a lot of crazy stuff in the bible, by crazy i mean it will blow your mind, not crazy-loco... There are so many qualities of the bible that no other book can come close to. no other book contains such accurate prophecies, probably a result of the stoning of false-prophets. If you want to blow a fuse, study out all of the prophecies regarding christ's coming as the messiah, who's family tree he would be born to, events in his life, and many others, and you'll see that it is almost impossible for one person to fulfill all the prophecies regarding this topic. This thread was created to discuss the claims made about christ prior to his coming, and how he fulfilled every one of them. what i need from posters in this thread is an open mind to discuss prophecy in the bible and it's importance to christianity.

so. Discussing prophecy, how could so many prophecies be made, each one further limiting who the messiah had to be, each one decreasing the odds - and yet every one be fulfilled? how do athiests or people claiming another god explain this astonishing fact?



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Posts: 95 | Posted: 7:35 PM on May 21, 2005 | IP
Lord Iorek

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um, because there were probably more prophsies made that were disregarded after Christ... just a though

And many religions have prophesies. Take note the story of Perseus...


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"At the age of six I wanted to be a cook. At seven I wanted to be Napoleon. And my ambition has been growing steadily ever since." - Salvador Dali

Guide the future by the past, long ago the mould was cast. - Rush
 


Posts: 121 | Posted: 4:55 PM on May 26, 2005 | IP
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"....probably more prophecies..."

even if we assumed this were true, (which it may well be, for people throughout time have made many incorrect prophecies, or currently unfulfilled prophecies) it would still in no way decrease the odd's statistically.. this is like saying getting 500,000 numbers correct in sequence is made easy to achieve by increasing the sequence to 600,000 numbers... my point is not that christ fulfilled all prophecies... that would be foolish to say.... but --- looking strictly at the one's he DID fulfill, and assigning them each probabilities that easily allow for error, if you calculated the odds out of any one person fulfilling even 1/4 of those that actually were... you'd find the odd's are extremely extremely unlikely....

i would be glad to go into further details bringing out even just 8 of the hundreds of prophecies made and demonstrate their probabilities, but you can do this just as easily yourself.

regarding many religions having prophesies...
this in no way takes away from christ's fulfillment, and is no shock or surprise to a believer of God... We don't say that a supreme good power is the only power available on earth, in fact. Besides, the odds we see fulfilled in christ are mostly usefull in proving that he was the one jew's were awaiting, the messiah... it isn't a strong argument to say that simply because we experienced some high and staggering numbers that all other religions are wrong and all hail the God of Abraham and Isaac... that does not follow from this particular argument.

Again, let me reiterate. The odds of Christ's fullfillment of scripture are nothing less than spectacular if you calculate them out even part way. This is useful in validating old testament literature, christ's teachings, and therefore the gospel and then salvation that follow... it isn't a complete proof of course, but those people who are foolish enough to claim christ didn't exist, or say that he was simply a great teacher, aren't in fact educated well enough about the situation. Christ COULD NOT have been simply a great teacher... if he was not God, you're only other option is that he was a lunatic, and there are few who hold that belief, but you may, i suppose.

i dont recommend it though.



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Posts: 95 | Posted: 5:49 PM on June 1, 2005 | IP
Lord Iorek

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Actually it wasn't all chance... Jesus sent his disciples too fetch a donkey to ride in on because the prophecies said so. Every Jew at the time was basically ingrained with Isaiah and such. And with about 5000 years of difference between Moses and Jesus, I'd bet more than the selected prophesies were made. Hmmm... I'm waiting


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"At the age of six I wanted to be a cook. At seven I wanted to be Napoleon. And my ambition has been growing steadily ever since." - Salvador Dali

Guide the future by the past, long ago the mould was cast. - Rush
 


Posts: 121 | Posted: 5:59 PM on June 1, 2005 | IP
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i could of understood your doubt of the subject through a lack of knowledge, but the fact that you maintain your position with no information isn't at all what i expected.

There were many of prophecies of a coming messiah which christ fulfilled. In order to demonstrate more clearly (it's obviously needed) i will be very specific, since by no fault of your own, you believe that christ somehow falsified the fulfillment with his buddies.

first, i'll point out several prophecies which christ and buddies had no control over whatsoever.

1. He had to be a descendant of David - 2 Sam 7:12-13
2. He had to be born of a virgin - Isaiah 7:14
3. He would be born in Bethlemem - Micah 5:2
4. He would be announced in advance by an Elijah-type herald - Isaiah 40:3-5
5. He would occasion the massacre of Bethlehem's children - Jer 31:15
6. He would be disbelieved and rejected by that era's rulers Psalm 118:22
7. He would be smitten like a shephard and his sheep scattered Zechariah 13:7

etc....
i could give some more, but suffice it to say that there existed prophecies outside and previous to his birth that essentially nominated him as a likely candidate before he spoke a word. not to mention there is no evidence i'm aware of to suggest christ somehow was a fraud of fulfillment.


Okay... so that's covered... I would like to get into the statistics of the matter now. I will be conservative so as to avoid dispute in the number's i'm using.

(1) Born in Bethlehem.
lets assume a pop'n in bethlehem of 10k, and an average world pop'n in the world over the past 2000 years at 1B.
- this puts the prob. of a random person being born in Bethlehem at 1:100k. (generous figure)

(2) Triumphant Entry into Jerusalem.
Let's assume again, very modestly, that less than 1 in every 100 people presented themselves as king, riding on a donkey.
- odds set at 1:100 (probably much higher in reality)

(3) Betrayed for thirty silver pieces.
again, no way to know, but let's assume less than 1 in every 1000 people experienced this
- odds set at 1:1000

(4) Further details, the betrayel is to take place at the temple, and the potter who owns the field will end up with the money (because of Jewish religion, they couldn't simply accept it, so they bought a burial field. occurrences very rare, definately not better than one in 100k
- odds set at 1:100k

(5) Aside from all other info, Zech 13:6 mentions Christ's wounded hands, occurrences set at 1:1k

(6) Say nothing in Defense when accused of a capital crime
we would probably find somebody else who has done this, but certainly less than 1 in a thousand
-1:1k odds (notice the generosity in each case?)

(7) Died with wicked, buried among the rich
again, definately less than 1 in a thousand
-1:1k odds again

(8) died by having hands/feet pierced in crucifixion. probably generous to assume that there are less than one in 10k people.
-1:10k odds

so, i think these are generous if anything, assuming a random selection of somebody throughout the past 2000 years. the odds will demonstrate that it was not random, not just any guy could have accomplished even these 8, let alone all of them.. On to the simple math

in composite probabilities, you multiply the probabilities together to find your subset probabilities. i've intentionally used 10's to arrive more quickly at our answer.
the answer is, 1:10^28 thats 28 orders of magnitude...  well let's be entirely realistic and divide by the total population during the past  two thousand years (estimated at 100B) this brings our probability down to 1:10^17.

to illustrate this example, lets take 10^17 coins, paint one red, and throw them all into a bucket of some kind, then get a blindfolded person to try and find this coin.

keep in mind this is only for 8 prophecies, there are over 100 which were fulfilled.

i wont bother going into the probabilities of the next number of them, but believe me the increase is exponential in nature.


again, let me re-iterate that this demonstrates that one can have confidance that Jesus Christ WAS the messiah prophesied in the Old Testament.

We didn't even touch on more rare prophesies like the exact day that christ rode into jerusalem, and the genealogies i mentioned at the top of the forum.

i'm not trying to convert anybody here. but before you start name-calling all christians saying they're blind sheep and have no evidence, and whatever else, please be informed that this couldn't be further from the truth. Some do in fact behave in that way  unfortunately, but there are those of us who have FIRM reasons and EVIDENCE for our faith aside from just conjectures about the supernatural.

this is not to say that there will not exist reason to doubt christ as messiah.... obviously this is a possibility too, as we see thousands of people who choose it.. the question is whether or not the unbelievers are blind sheep or if they have reasons of their own to not believe.




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Posts: 95 | Posted: 9:51 PM on June 1, 2005 | IP
Blasphemy

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OK Carns

Your equation might make sense with the geneolgy in Matthew, but it falls apart when you take the geneogly out of Mark.



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Blasphemy-->"JEHOVAH, JEHOVAH!"
Don't make me sic my god on you!
There is no hell. There is only France
-Frank Zappa
 


Posts: 95 | Posted: 11:29 AM on January 15, 2006 | IP
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elaborate


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 2:33 PM on January 15, 2006 | IP
Blasphemy

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Do I need to? Read the geneolgy in Matthew, then read the geneolgy in Mark.  You are making up new rules if you say that both are correct because both cannot be correct.


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Blasphemy-->"JEHOVAH, JEHOVAH!"
Don't make me sic my god on you!
There is no hell. There is only France
-Frank Zappa
 


Posts: 95 | Posted: 2:35 PM on January 15, 2006 | IP
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Joseph and Mary were both descendants of David.  This we know.  Obviously they did not both come down the exact branch (the old that family tree don't split routine) as they are not brother and sister.  Also, we know for a fact that ancient geneologies often listed prominent ancestors, but not necessarily all ancestors (and not just by the Jews).  There are no discrepancies between the two geneologies.


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 3:01 PM on January 15, 2006 | IP
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According to the bible, the entire population of the earth has a geneolgy going back to noah. This creates a "no matter how you look at it" scenario that the christian will always fall back upon. I beg to differ on the accuracy of the geneolgy. It wouldn't matter what josephs geneolgy was anyway, if we assume the miracle of a virgin birth is true. However, I know that this "miracle" was collected from other religions such as that of the Sumerians and Egyptians



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Blasphemy-->"JEHOVAH, JEHOVAH!"
Don't make me sic my god on you!
There is no hell. There is only France
-Frank Zappa
 


Posts: 95 | Posted: 3:07 PM on January 15, 2006 | IP
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1)  The geneology of Joseph (as the father) would be seen as important to the Jews to whom it was written.  Therefore it's emphasis.

2)  I often see people claim that the Jews/Christians stole ideas from other religions.  The Jewish/Christian belief is that all nations came from the same source (as you pointed out) and therefore it would only make sense (especially since most tradition were passed along orally at the time) that most nations would have slightly (or sometimes significantly) altered versions of the same things taught by the Jews.  It comes no surprise to a Jew or a Christian that other nations have messed up versions of their own histories and prophecies.  I see the same argument for the flood, virgin birth, creation, etc.  It doesn't poke any holes in Christianity.


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 3:12 PM on January 15, 2006 | IP
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It doesn't matter what the Jews think is important or unimportant. That has absolutely no revelance..

I can't state for a fact that the christians stole their beliefs from the other religions. However, the christians "borrowed" :

1. Easter - third full moon in April signifying a new planting season
2. Christmas - The Winter Solstice (originally the shortest day of the year on Dec. 25th, however this has been moved to the 21st of December, although the christians stuck with the 25th

3. Son of god (many of the egyptian rulers were worshiped as the "sons of god"

4. Virgin Birth - also occurred in religions prior to christianity.



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Blasphemy-->"JEHOVAH, JEHOVAH!"
Don't make me sic my god on you!
There is no hell. There is only France
-Frank Zappa
 


Posts: 95 | Posted: 3:29 PM on January 15, 2006 | IP
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Ps> Even the story of Adam and eve is borrowed from ancient religions.

"The story of Enki being condemned to death by Ninursag for eating a forbidden herb, the story of the snake stealing the the herb of immortality from Galgamesh, etc.


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Blasphemy-->"JEHOVAH, JEHOVAH!"
Don't make me sic my god on you!
There is no hell. There is only France
-Frank Zappa
 


Posts: 95 | Posted: 3:34 PM on January 15, 2006 | IP
EMyers

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Ah, but you are wrong.  First of all, Christians (those that actually follow the Bible) do not celebrate either Easter of Christmas as religious holidays.  They are not mentioned in Scripture (ignore the King Jame's blatant mistranslation of the Passover in John).  And it is quite obvious to the average Christian that most (if not all) other nation's would have a story relating to Adam & Eve, the serpent, etc.  And the virgin birth was prophecied long before it ever took place.  Look at it this way, there are ancient "stories" of people that could fly.  Does that mean that planes are a myth and were just borrowed from another culture.  Is a biography of JFK untrue, because there was biography of Washington before it and the JFK book borrowed the idea of a president?  No, you say, that's ludicrous.  You're right.  That's my point.


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 4:33 PM on January 15, 2006 | IP
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How Christian of you. "Those that follow the bible".

This is a particularly common stance taken by christian fundamentalists. You are stating now that unless they interpret the bible as you do, they aren't christians.

Christians will never stop fighting amongst themselves. They will also never stop revising their version of this myth.


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Blasphemy-->"JEHOVAH, JEHOVAH!"
Don't make me sic my god on you!
There is no hell. There is only France
-Frank Zappa
 


Posts: 95 | Posted: 5:37 PM on January 15, 2006 | IP
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I'm confused by your comment.  If I told you I was Republican and voted Democrat every election I wouldn't expect people to believe me.  If I told you I was Christian and then repeatedly did things that you knew were against the bible, I wouldn't expect you to believe me then either.  Seems pretty obvious to me.  I've never understood why people who call themselves by another label than Christian, complain when someone refers to themselves as Christian.  I'm not Baptist, I'm not Catholic, I'm not Lutheran, I'm not Methodist, I'm Christian.  Just because denominations have abanoned the name, why should I have to pick a new label?   Christian was good enough for the New Testament church.  Why isn't it good enough for today's believers?


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 9:46 PM on January 15, 2006 | IP
Blasphemy

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I didn't say it was wrong to be a christian, and I don't know why you would assume that the label needs changing.

You steadfastly state "ignore the King James blatant mistranslation". Why? For thousands of years it was considered the most accurate translation.

However, you haven't provided a reason why one should abandon this version in favor of another. Is there that much difference? And what caused the changes?

As far as the story relating to Adam and Eve, the story itself wreaks of Akkadian and Babylonion Mythology.

I question the orginality of this story in the bible.


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Blasphemy-->"JEHOVAH, JEHOVAH!"
Don't make me sic my god on you!
There is no hell. There is only France
-Frank Zappa
 


Posts: 95 | Posted: 08:49 AM on January 16, 2006 | IP
EMyers

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1) If you study Greek, there are many words mistranslated in the King James.  The word that is translated Easter is translated Passover in every other instance in the King James.  It also translates Hades as Hell.  The Greek word Gehenna is Hell (King James translates both as hell).  The King James also translates the Hebrew word Sheol as Hell, when it's Greek counterpart would be Hades.  These are but a few examples.

2)  By the time the Bible was put down in written form, the history of the world had been passed down for generations.  Adam and Eve were the very first people.  I have no doubt that countless nations had the story (probably bastardized over the years) and some may have even recorded it before the book of Genesis finally fount print (or scribe, as the case may be).  I don't understand the confusion.


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 09:30 AM on January 16, 2006 | IP
Blasphemy

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My confusion rests with the inability of this god to be more original. Are you saying that god would follow man's stories rather than create a more original story than what humankind had thought up?


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Blasphemy-->"JEHOVAH, JEHOVAH!"
Don't make me sic my god on you!
There is no hell. There is only France
-Frank Zappa
 


Posts: 95 | Posted: 10:02 AM on January 16, 2006 | IP
EMyers

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You are not following are you?  What are you using to determine the age of the "story"?  It's first written account?  And even then you can only assume based on the earliest version of a specific written account.  It makes perfect sense to the average person that all nations would have versions of the same major plotlines of the Bible as all nations originated from the same people.  It makes perfect sense that some nations finally transferred those oral histories to written form before others.  It also makes perfect sense that most of those nations would have skewed the stories slightly from their original form.  God created the history.  Why do you insist that, because the Jews finally wrote their history down later than other nations might have, that they borrowed it?


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 12:59 PM on January 16, 2006 | IP
Blasphemy

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1. Revelations states no one has a right to change anything in the bible, yet the entire old testament was cherry picked from a bunch of books.

2. You state the term "Nation" which didn't arrive until long after man first appeared on the earth. Certainly by  looking at something like the Grand Canyon, you realize the earth is significantly older than the biblical 5000 years BCE.

3. Archeological Evidence shows that the first known Jews worshiped both a male and female god.

Think about some of the artifacts found. Scientist have found coins with the first references to Yahweh, and he is pictured in a winged chariot. Why? Because gods couldn't fly!

They had the use of a winged chariot in order to achieve this task.


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Blasphemy-->"JEHOVAH, JEHOVAH!"
Don't make me sic my god on you!
There is no hell. There is only France
-Frank Zappa
 


Posts: 95 | Posted: 1:12 PM on January 16, 2006 | IP
EMyers

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1)  And do you know what guidelines were used to weed the canon from the gnostic books?

2)  Are you familiar with geological evidence contradicting the supposed age of the Grand Canyon?

3)  The bible itself speaks of the Jews worship of other gods.  You state it like its some big revelation or something.


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 1:22 PM on January 16, 2006 | IP
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The geological "evidence" you say exists concerning the Grand Canyon is fictional. I can look at the Grand Canyon, and without a physics degree I can tell you matter of factly that it took alot longer than 5000 years for water to cut a ravine over a mile deep in hard rocks such as granite. To boast otherwise is an absurdity.

Explain to me then paleolithic man who lived long before anyone thought up a god. What about neanderthal man? Are you going to deny the solid evidence that science has provided?

If you say "Science is wrong, because the bible is right", why can't you produce a shred of evidence?




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Blasphemy-->"JEHOVAH, JEHOVAH!"
Don't make me sic my god on you!
There is no hell. There is only France
-Frank Zappa
 


Posts: 95 | Posted: 1:37 PM on January 16, 2006 | IP
Ken1Burton

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There are two genealogies for Jesus, One seen in Matthew and one in the third chapter of Luke, Not in Mark.

Slight MAJOR problem. They are neither the Genealogies for Jesus. They go to Joseph, Both of them. And Joseph is not DADDY. No physical link to Jesus, and Jesus according to the Promise to David in 2-Samuel 7:11/14 has to come out of the Bowels of David.

God also swore in His Holiness not to lie unto David nor alter the Words. Jesus has to be the Physical Son of David.

Joseph can have two different genealogies. That happens when a woman’s husband dies leaving no child, So a brother or next of kin takes the woman and raises up seed to the dead brother. Resulting in a Physical and Legal Genealogy.

There is No genealogy for Mary what so ever. And there is no need for one. Mary does not have to be of the linage of David, The Child DOES.

Ever hear of a Surrogate Mother?

God gives the Promise to David, Saying “Shall proceed out of thy bowels.” so the Children David already has are eliminated, God said He would raise up the Child after David was dead, Solomon who became King while David was alive is eliminated.

But just after the Promise, David had a Child born outside wedlock to Bathsheba, Conceived while she was still married to Uriah the Hittite. Jesus comes in the Volume of the Book, Ever read “In sin did My Mother conceive Me.”? How about “Thy Mother is a Hittite.”?

God sent a Parable to David after taking Bathsheba about taking Bathsheba:

2-Samuel 12:4 And there came a traveller unto the rich man, and he spared to take of his own flock and of his own herd, to dress for the wayfaring man that was come unto him; but took the poor man's lamb, and dressed it for the man that was come to him.

David took Bathsheba to prepare for the Promise of the Messiah which had come unto him, For the WAYFARING MAN.

Jeremiah 14:8 O the hope of Israel, the saviour thereof in time of trouble, why shouldest thou be as a stranger in the land, and as a wayfaring man that turneth aside to tarry for a night?

The Child dies 7 days after Birth, the law in Deuteronomy 23:2 says a child born outside wedlock (conceived) can not enter the Congregation till it’s tenth generation, God uses a 100 year Generation for the Children in Egypt or 400 years.

The Child born in 1004 BC, Then is REBORN in 4 BC. The First begotten of the Dead as Jesus is seen in Revelation 1:5. As a PRINCE. Jesus went to the Cross as a KING seen in Psalms 2:6/7

It is the Prophecies God made for Jesus and showing as the Son of David, Which God fulfilled through Christ that shows He is whom God sent, and that is the Link between David and Jesus.

Psalms 89:34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.
35 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David.
36 His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me.

If you want to use a lot of sevens, Move them all to the Book of Revelation, then look at the day of the Cross seen as 7 days in Isaiah 30:26. Take the day as 3 pictures, Liken the first to 4 6-hour periods a 4 beasts with 6-wings, liken the second to 2 12-hour periods as 2 witnesses, Liken the third to 1 24-hour period as 24 Elders.

So the Fourth seal would be noon to Sunset, Death followed by hell, and that is just when Jesus died and descended into hell.

Ken


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Jesus told the Disciples "I have yet many things to say unto you, But you can not bear them now." <br><br>Would you like to know what they are? Most can not bear them yet.<br>
 


Posts: 3 | Posted: 11:55 PM on March 26, 2007 | IP
Unriggable

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Quote from Carns at 11:00 PM on May 2, 2005 :1.The number of words you use must be an exact multiple of seven.
2. The number of letters you use must be divisible by seven exactly.
3. The number of vowels you use is to be exactly divisible by seven.
4. The number of words beginning with a vowel you use must be divisible by seven.
5. The number of words that occur more than once must be divisible by seven.
6. The number of words that occur in more than one form must be divisible by seven.
7. The number of nouns must be divisible by seven.
8. The number of names must be divisible by seven and only seven other kinds of nouns are allowed.
9. The number of male names must be divisible by seven.
10. The number of generations must be divisible by seven.


Would anybody fabricate this:

  1.  The attack on America was on the 11th.
  2. The World Trade Center's twin towers, standing side by side resembled the number eleven.
  3. The twin towers each had 110 stories.
  4. Flight #11 was the first plane to attack.
  5. The first plane to hit the towers was Flight 11 by American Airlines or AA.  A is the first letter in the alphabet, so we have again 11:11.
  6. September 11th was the 254th day of the year, 2+5+4 adds up to eleven.
  7. After September 11th there is 111 days left in this year.
  8. Flight #11 had 92 passengers, 9+2 adds up to eleven.
  9. Flight 77 had 65 passengers, 6+5 adds up to eleven.
 10. There were 92 passengers on board American Airlines Flight 11;   9 + 2  =  11
 11. There were 65 passengers on American Airlines Flight 77;   6 + 5  =  11
 12. The number of Tower windows: 21,800; 2+1+8+0+0 = 11
 13. The third building #7 to fall had 47 stories; 4+7=11
 14. American Airlines number1-800-245-0999
     1+8+0+0+2+4+5+0+9+9+9=47 = 11
 15. Beginning with American Airlines Flight 11,
     the other three planes had a sequential order:

     United Airlines Flight 93         9 + 3   =   12
     United Airlines Flight 175      1 + 7 + 5 = 13
     American Airlines Flight 77     7 + 7   =   14
 16. On Friday 9-13-2001, President George W. Bush went to the WTC to talk with and thank the Firefighters, rescuers, and police officers who have given their time and hearts tirelessly 24 hours a day since the horrible tragedy. President Bush stood on top of a pile of rubble with a firefighter whose helmet was numbered 164; 1+6+4 = 11

We all know that none of this really matters, but seriously, what are the odds?!



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"Without Judgment"
 


Posts: 51 | Posted: 10:05 PM on May 2, 2007 | IP
EMyers

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About the same as rewording points 10 and 11 to make it look like there are even more similarities than there were.  Seriously, 10 and 11 are just rephrased 8 and 9.  Plus flight 77 carried 64 passengers, not 65.  The more you hold this list under the light of truth, the less coincidental it becomes.  Plus United Airlines number is 1-800-932-8555 and that adds up to 46 which = 10... oops, no wonder they left that one out.

Don't get me wrong, I don't agree with Carns on this one either.  There is no question that not all of the relative 'tween Adam and Joseph were included in the geneology, but this was quite often the practice back then as well.  Kind of like tracing your lineage back to Herman Ulysses Grant without covering every single father in between.  The point is, you can still trace your lineage back to him.


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 11:10 PM on May 3, 2007 | IP
    
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