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madbilly

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whether you like it or not this nation was founded under christain valuse and guidlines. The seperation of church and state was imlemented so as to not have a governing church like Englands anglican or romes catholic rules. It was probaly thrown in to acknowledge that there are many different sects within the christain denominations. We started out as puritans in america then we had the quakers and then the shakers and then with immigration we brought in catholics and many other religions. You might not like the idea that we are a christian nation but is hard to say we are not.


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my name is madbilly....what did you expect me to be happy when my name says Mad in it...
 


Posts: 451 | Posted: 12:14 PM on October 22, 2002 | IP
thistownwilleatu

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What do you base that on?  I'm a christian but I think you have your facts wrong.  Our founding fathers were self-pronounced diests and atheists.  Name one that wasn't.  


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"The greatest evil is not done in those sordid dens of evil that Dickens loved to paint ... but is conceived and ordered (moved, seconded, carried and minuted) in clear, carpeted, warmed, well-lighted offices, by quiet men with white collars and cut fingernails and smooth-shaven cheeks who do not need to raise their voices." - Thomas Merton

"I thank my God for every remembrance of you." - Paul
 


Posts: 341 | Posted: 1:59 PM on October 22, 2002 | IP
madbilly

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name one that was an atheist...deism is a shaker/quaker belief that is christian..it is the belief that got set the world in motion and lets everything unfold on its own without divine intervention...now isnt that a basic sect of christianity


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my name is madbilly....what did you expect me to be happy when my name says Mad in it...
 


Posts: 451 | Posted: 2:10 PM on October 22, 2002 | IP
thistownwilleatu

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The root word of Christianity is, after all, Christ.  Deists don't believe in him as the son of God, they believe God created the world then abandoned it, where would God taking human form fit in to all of that?

Don't take my word for who was atheist, decide for yourself:

"The Christian religion is a parody on the worship of the sun, in which they put a man whom they call Christ, in the place of the sun, and pay him the same adoration which was originally paid to the sun" -- Thomas Paine

"The so called Christian god is cruel, vindictive, capricious and unjust" -- Thomas Jefferson

"Religion has no weight with, or in, me" -- Benjamin Franklin

"The "divinity" of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity" -- John Adams

"Democracy does not need the church, or the clergy" -- James Madison

"Religion is a matter which belongs to the church, and not to the state" -- George Washington

)"And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classified with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter" -- Thomas Jefferson


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"The greatest evil is not done in those sordid dens of evil that Dickens loved to paint ... but is conceived and ordered (moved, seconded, carried and minuted) in clear, carpeted, warmed, well-lighted offices, by quiet men with white collars and cut fingernails and smooth-shaven cheeks who do not need to raise their voices." - Thomas Merton

"I thank my God for every remembrance of you." - Paul
 


Posts: 341 | Posted: 5:44 PM on October 22, 2002 | IP
AlexanderTheGreat

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Damn. That was a slam dunk.


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Alex
 


Posts: 292 | Posted: 9:50 PM on October 22, 2002 | IP
madbilly

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your right i lose



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my name is madbilly....what did you expect me to be happy when my name says Mad in it...
 


Posts: 451 | Posted: 11:33 PM on October 22, 2002 | IP
AlexanderTheGreat

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You surrendered??? Does that mean you do not think USA was founded on Christian values (of course to some extent all Western culture grew out of Judeo-Christian belief, along with Socratic reasoning rekindled by the Renaissance, Scientific Revolution, and the Enlightenment)? Does that mean you agree this should be atheist/agnostic/secular government not influenced by religious tenets?? Oh happy day! One down, and a few hundred million more to go!


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Alex
 


Posts: 292 | Posted: 01:26 AM on October 23, 2002 | IP
madbilly

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no i surrendered on the sub topic i was last arguing...not the whole debate....i had challenged him to give me proof and he did


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my name is madbilly....what did you expect me to be happy when my name says Mad in it...
 


Posts: 451 | Posted: 01:28 AM on October 23, 2002 | IP
kc2gwx

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thistownwilleatu posted these quotes:

"The Christian religion is a parody on the worship of the sun, in which they put a man whom they call Christ, in the place of the sun, and pay him the same adoration which was originally paid to the sun" -- Thomas Paine

"The so called Christian god is cruel, vindictive, capricious and unjust" -- Thomas Jefferson

"Religion has no weight with, or in, me" -- Benjamin Franklin

"The "divinity" of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity" -- John Adams

"Democracy does not need the church, or the clergy" -- James Madison

"Religion is a matter which belongs to the church, and not to the state" -- George Washington

)"And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classified with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter" -- Thomas Jefferson"

He is correct about Thomas Paine and Thomas Jefferson. They were not Christians. But some of the other quotes are deceptive. For example, look at James Madison's quote:

"Democracy does not need the church, or the clergy" -- James Madison

James Madison is not saying anything about his personal belief in Christ. He is saying that 'the church' should not be in the government. James Madison was a Christian. Here is James Madison:

"We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future ...upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to sustain ourselves, according to the Ten Commandments of God."

The same can be said of George Washington's quote:

"Religion is a matter which belongs to the church, and not to the state" -- George Washington

George Washington was not stating his personal belief. He was saying that church and state should be seperate. George Washington was a Christian:

"Almighty God, we make our earnest prayer that Thou wilt keep the United States in Thy Holy protection: that Thou wilt incline the hearts of the citizens to cultivate a spirit of subordination and obedience to government and entertain a brotherly affection and love for one another and for their fellow citizens of the United States at large. And finally, that Thou wilt most graciously be pleased to dispose us all to do justice, to love mercy, and to demean ourselves with that charity, humility, and pacific temper of mind which were the characteristics of the Divine Author of our blessed religion, without a humble imitation of whose example in these things we can never hope to be a happy nation. Grant our supplication, we beseech Thee, through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.
**George Washington**"

That was good old George. Read the closing sentence.

""It is rightly impossible to govern the world without God and the Bible."
--George Washington"

George. And he mentions the Bible.

"You do well to wish to learn our arts and our ways of life, and above all, the religion of Jesus Christ."

George again."

Ok, so you have shown that three of our founding fathers were not Christians. Three. No matter how you define 'founding father', that is a very small percentage. I have posted (in other forums) 97% of our founding fathers were Christians, and I stand by that.

The fact is that our country was founded by Christians.


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Sam, KC2GWX
 


Posts: 101 | Posted: 12:58 PM on October 23, 2002 | IP
dsadevil

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"founded by christian's" and "christian nation" are seperate things entirely. We are not a christian nation. We are not an atheist nation. We are not a any religion nation. We are a nation that protects all religions, while not imposing or supporting any of them. And the founding fathers beliefs either way on the matter have no bearing on that fact.


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 2:49 PM on October 23, 2002 | IP
kc2gwx

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I don't disagree with you. Our government does not embrace any religion over another, which is a good thing. My point was that our country was founded by christians, not deist, as thistownwilleatu said.


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Sam, KC2GWX
 


Posts: 101 | Posted: 3:05 PM on October 23, 2002 | IP
thistownwilleatu

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So you agree that our nation was founded on the basis of church and state?



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"The greatest evil is not done in those sordid dens of evil that Dickens loved to paint ... but is conceived and ordered (moved, seconded, carried and minuted) in clear, carpeted, warmed, well-lighted offices, by quiet men with white collars and cut fingernails and smooth-shaven cheeks who do not need to raise their voices." - Thomas Merton

"I thank my God for every remembrance of you." - Paul
 


Posts: 341 | Posted: 3:33 PM on October 23, 2002 | IP
dsadevil

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on the basis of their seperation, yes.


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 4:55 PM on October 23, 2002 | IP
thistownwilleatu

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What about you kc...., I don't see how you could refute it.  Some of the founding fathers were Christian, yes, but they made it very clear that believed that the church and state were two seperate entities and should stay that way.


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"The greatest evil is not done in those sordid dens of evil that Dickens loved to paint ... but is conceived and ordered (moved, seconded, carried and minuted) in clear, carpeted, warmed, well-lighted offices, by quiet men with white collars and cut fingernails and smooth-shaven cheeks who do not need to raise their voices." - Thomas Merton

"I thank my God for every remembrance of you." - Paul
 


Posts: 341 | Posted: 8:44 PM on October 23, 2002 | IP
AlexanderTheGreat

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Our nation does embrace one religion over others. It's called Christianity. And it makes me sick.


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Alex
 


Posts: 292 | Posted: 10:16 PM on October 23, 2002 | IP
kc2gwx

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"What about you kc...., I don't see how you could refute it.  Some of the founding fathers were Christian, yes, but they made it very clear that believed that the church and state were two seperate entities and should stay that way."

You can just call me Sam. I'm not trying to refute it. The founding fathers did not want a national religion, like Englands. That only brought trouble, and the founders reliazed that this country was about freedom, not a national religion.

Our country was founded by Christian men, it was founded on Christian princibles, but there is not a national Christian church.

Seperation of church and state means that there is no religion our government embraces over another. However, it does not mean religion can not be in government. A chaplin prays in congress, the ten commandments are posted in courts, 'in God we trust' is on our coins, but a national religion is not established. This is seperation of church and state.



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Sam, KC2GWX
 


Posts: 101 | Posted: 11:09 PM on October 23, 2002 | IP
dsadevil

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so in other words, government can endorse religion, as long as it doesn't specifically preclude others? sounds inconsistant to me. There needs to be a "wall of seperation" between church and state (founding fathers words, not mine), and this includes getting rid of school prayer and other government mandated endorsements of religion.


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 4:28 PM on October 24, 2002 | IP
kc2gwx

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Government can not set up a national religion. Spain was Catholic. England was Protestant. America is...nothing. You can be what you want, there will not be an inquistition. That is what seperation of church and state was meant to be, not what it has become.


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Sam, KC2GWX
 


Posts: 101 | Posted: 11:23 PM on October 24, 2002 | IP
Prometheus

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If the founders had wanted a Christian nation, they would have made one and not have separated Church and State in the constitution.

Prior to the constitution, 11 of 13 states had religious qualifications for public office.  These were limited to Christians only, and sometimes even Protestants only.  However, the Constitutional Convention voted down such qualifications, creating the separation of church and state that we find in the First Amendment today.  If that is not proof of founders intentions, then what is?

Thomas Jefferson coined the phrase "a wall of separation between Church and State" in his letter to the Danbury Baptists.  Some Christians have tried to argue that this wall is "one-way", that the state may not interfere with religion, but religion may interfere with the state.  However, this is an impossibility, since by definition any control that a religion achieves over the state will automatically become state infringement on the religious rights of others.

To me, the fact that not all the founders were Christians, and that they actually removed a widespread Christian qualification for office in the constitution, proves that they did not intend this to be a Christian nation.


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"There are seven sins in the world: Wealth without work, Pleasure without conscience, Knowledge without character, Commerce without morality, Science without humanity, Worship without sacrifice, and politics without principle." --Mahatma Gandhi
 


Posts: 22 | Posted: 04:52 AM on October 25, 2002 | IP
dsadevil

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America is nothing. Precisely. And when we force people to say "under God" we are making it "something" (specifically monotheistic)


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 3:02 PM on October 25, 2002 | IP
kyjman

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no house founded on murder and falsehoods shall stand.  I found that in the bible a few years back. It seems to me that this nation was founded by totally destroying the native peoples by murdering them, starving them, and turning them into alcoholics. It seems to me that if that is the christian way, then I dont need any part of it.


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If we can't get over the past, we will be passed over.
 


Posts: 6 | Posted: 9:29 PM on November 11, 2002 | IP
Gs_Deus

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The United States of America was founded by God- not Christianity. If it was founded by Christianity, it was founded by Protestantism. Benjamin Franklin, John Adams, George Washington and Jefferson were all Deists. There were very few Protestants and Catholics for that matter. No, america was founded on God, but not on Christianity.


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TorchX.com- conservative youth site.
 


Posts: 49 | Posted: 01:05 AM on November 12, 2002 | IP
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Apearently I was wrong about George Washington being a Deist, he was an Anglican. However, the vast majority of the founders of the United States were simply believers in God. As I've said, Benjamin Franklin was a Deist. Again, America was founded on religious freedom. This was a salvation towards Catholics and Jews- who were being perseucted in early american times.  I would imagine that religious freedom was made so that Catholics and Jews would be happy- seeing that at this time 30% of america was Catholic, and 2% was Jewish. So yes, America was founded on Christianity- and it is a Christian Nation. But again, it was founded on God- not Christ specifically. It's a very contraversal issue, and unless somebody finds an article written during the revolutionary war on how america was founded on Christianity, we'll never know.
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 3:45 PM on November 12, 2002 | IP
dsadevil

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Wait...a country established to protect the rights of jews and christians is only a christian country? somehow i doubt that the jews who live here want to live their lives based on christian "ethics."


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 5:19 PM on November 12, 2002 | IP
Gs_Deus

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But the Jews have a very similar religion to Christianity- we call them our fathers. Besides, there are so few of them- they don't mind living in a Christian nation! UK- Christian, France- Christian, Spain-Christian, Germany- Christian, Italy- Christian, Poland, Russia,-Christian. The Ottoman Empire was Muslim. There wern't any Jewish nations numball! :-)

(Edited by Gs_Deus 11/12/2002 at 6:50 PM).


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TorchX.com- conservative youth site.
 


Posts: 49 | Posted: 6:49 PM on November 12, 2002 | IP
dsadevil

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And we know the outcome of Jews continually living in non-jewish nations. Can someone say inquistion? how about pogrom? or holocaust? there's a reason why we are so desperate to maintain what IS the one jewish state.
We DO mind living in a nation ruled by christian doctrine. There's an old saying (i've mentioned it before) "Jews are a nervous people. Centuries of christian love has worn down our nerves."


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 9:32 PM on November 12, 2002 | IP
Gs_Deus

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Don't get me wrong- I have MANY Jewish friends (San Francisco is 1/4 Jewish). I honor the Jews- since they hold the traditions of man (like Catholics do). But have always lived in a country by christians. As i've said, America was founded on God.

What type of Jew are you? Liberal, Orthodox, Conservative, Reform...


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TorchX.com- conservative youth site.
 


Posts: 49 | Posted: 8:43 PM on November 13, 2002 | IP
dsadevil

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I'm a liberal (politically) conservative (religion-wise) jew.
Who doesn't believe the nation was founded on God.
Nor a "christian nation."
We are a nation of freedom, for all, not just christians. We are a nation with NO official religion or religious doctrine. And the fact that the majority of americans or founding fathers are christians is wholly irrelevant. I refer you to John Stuart Mill who once said "If all of mankind, minus one, was of one opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one than he, if he had the power, would be in silencing mankind."


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 10:28 PM on November 13, 2002 | IP
Gs_Deus

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Yes, it was founded on God. I agree.


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TorchX.com- conservative youth site.
 


Posts: 49 | Posted: 1:52 PM on November 15, 2002 | IP
dsadevil

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What particular aspect of God was it founded upon? I always thought it was based on Locke's 2nd treatise of government. Or the protection of rights. How/where did God muscle (he has to take credit for EVERYTHING doesn't he )


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 2:37 PM on November 15, 2002 | IP
Gs_Deus

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God. Allah. Whatever you call him. This nation was founded on God, and we must live in this nation under god (moral lives).


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TorchX.com- conservative youth site.
 


Posts: 49 | Posted: 4:44 PM on November 15, 2002 | IP
locagirl

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hey i didnt read all of this but i just wanted to tell y'all what i think...

i am not christian and im just as good of an american citizen as any of you. and i can say the same for many athiests that i know. part of our countries ethics is allowing people of all backgrounds, which means our country is not based on just one religion (christianity), rather based on the acceptance of many beliefs/religions/cultures. this is a part of who we are. we would not be america if there were not equal rights for everyone, and people do not have equal rights if you are saying that we are a "christian nation"... people, respect people that don't believe in the same thing as you... this is a rediculous post.
 


Posts: 60 | Posted: 8:09 PM on November 15, 2002 | IP
dsadevil

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GS you're dodging the question. From what do you justify your contention that America was founded on God? Where is your evidence? Where in the constitution is this suggested?


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 11:31 PM on November 15, 2002 | IP
Gs_Deus

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GS you're dodging the question. From what do you justify your contention that America was founded on God? Where is your evidence? Where in the constitution is this suggested?


I'm sorry, I misunderstood your question. Seeing that the founders of the United States were all believers in God- Deists, Catholics, Protestants- they all created america for God. As it says on our dollar bill "Under God", the United States is created under God. Though this "under God" phrase was created by Truman- it was created, nonetheless, and at the time when Atheism and anti-God was popping up in the United States. Thus, this nation was created on religious freedom- religious freedom. Atheism is not a religion. I'm not saying it should be illigalized, but I don't think the atheists- or anyone for that matter- has a right to change the fact that america was created under God.


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TorchX.com- conservative youth site.
 


Posts: 49 | Posted: 11:48 PM on November 15, 2002 | IP
Prometheus

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Whenever a self described conservative as Gs_Deus says god, you can bet he means a christian god.  His argument is just a back door attempt to say America is a christian nation.  He knows the argument is weak for a christian nation so he tries to redefine it to a god nation, thinking this will have more universal appeal.

The United States was founded as a secular government, based on the authority of "We the people" not on the authority of god.  The United States Constitution is a godless document, the word god does not appear in the constitution, in fact, the only time religion is even mentioned is in an exclusionary way.

Some countries, such as the former Soviet Union, expressed hostility to religion.  Others, such as Iran have married church and state.  America has wisley taken the middle course, neither for nor against religion.  Neutrality hurts no one and protects everyone.  Our government represents all of the people supported by tax dollars from believers and non-believers.

Ignoring history, law and fairness, many fanatics are working to turn America into a Christian nation.  Fundamentalist protestants and right wing catholics would impose their narrow morality on the rest of us if they could.  America has never been a nation under god and hopefully never will be one.




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"There are seven sins in the world: Wealth without work, Pleasure without conscience, Knowledge without character, Commerce without morality, Science without humanity, Worship without sacrifice, and politics without principle." --Mahatma Gandhi
 


Posts: 22 | Posted: 02:53 AM on November 16, 2002 | IP
Gs_Deus

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Whenever a self described conservative as Gs_Deus says god, you can bet he means a christian god.


I am a member of the Holy Roman Catholic Church- I believe God is with my Church, but there are other "Gods" that people believe in. I do not believe in their Gods, but I respect that that is their belief, and  that they can use God. Deists are not Christians. They are simply people who believe in a God. You, on the other hand, are simply a very uneducated Atheist who does not even know the definition of God. God is whoever's belief. You cannot be stereotypical towards Christians. Just because America is mostly Christian doesn't mean that we all believe this is a Christian nation, bud. So if I were you I would delete your post, because I literally shread your argument to pieces.

That is my warning. I will do it.


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Posts: 49 | Posted: 4:08 PM on November 16, 2002 | IP
Gs_Deus

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Times up!

Whenever a self described conservative as Gs_Deus says god, you can bet he means a christian god.


Just because I'm Christian and conservative? Yes, I mean a Christian God, but others don’t. That’s perfectly fine, ignorant child.

 His argument is just a back door attempt to say America is a christian nation.  He knows the argument is weak for a christian nation so he tries to redefine it to a god nation, thinking this will have more universal appeal.


Umm... what are your sources for this? I know that America was not founded on Christianity! I do know, however, that it was founded under God. Whatever you want to call him. Even atheists have a God- Science or whatever; Nature. You cannot go on making false claims when you don’t have anything to back it up. This only proves that Americans like you don’t understand the true meaning of the constitution. If you can find one atheist who signed the declaration of independence, I will retaliate from this argument. But you wont be able to- because every single person who signed it believed in some God.

The United States was founded as a secular government, based on the authority of "We the people" not on the authority of god.


We’re in America- not France. The Americans were not liberals- the liberal secular movement did not start till the French revolution, when the Jacobins came into power. The only liberals around were more like Libertarians. Yes, America you could say was secular- but secularism did not mean the same today. Secular used to simply mean you’re not part of any religion, or any religious group- but you beleived in God. The atheism movement came in later. America was founded on a God- and God is whatever you want to call him.

The United States Constitution is a godless document, the word god does not appear in the constitution, in fact, the only time religion is even mentioned is in an exclusionary way.


When is religion even mentioned? That is the point! No religion is mentioned. Therefore, we must rely on who wrote the constitution- Deists, Protestants, a Catholic and a Jew (I think). You cannot, however, say that we are excluded- can you actually imagine a group of deists and Christians agreeing to decline God? That is a farcical! That is very laughable.  

Some countries, such as the former Soviet Union, expressed hostility to religion.  Others, such as Iran have married church and state.  America has wisley taken the middle course, neither for nor against religion.  Neutrality hurts no one and protects everyone.  Our government represents all of the people supported by tax dollars from believers and non-believers.


Yes, we have religious freedom. This is a good thing- but America was not founded on Atheism, and we should not remove God from the Pledge just to please a minority! America was wise in not choosing a religion- but believing in God used to be the only option, unlike today you can simply be Atheist or Agnostic- back then, Atheism wasn’t even thought about.

Ignoring history, law and fairness, many fanatics are working to turn America into a Christian nation.  Fundamentalist protestants and right wing catholics would impose their narrow morality on the rest of us if they could.  America has never been a nation under god and hopefully never will be one.


I’m not working to make it a Christian nation- i’m working to keep it the same. And i’m not a fanatic- from what i’ve seen, atheists are the ones trying to take over the nation. If one person says God, they get sued. If a person holds a sign with the word “God Bless America” they have to put it down. Just because we’re believers in God it’s all of a sudden wrong. This only proves, once again, the ignorance of the Atheists.

(Edited by Gs_Deus 11/16/2002 at 4:24 PM).


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Posts: 49 | Posted: 4:23 PM on November 16, 2002 | IP
dsadevil

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Let's take a look a GS's "shredding".

First, he says that atheism wasn't a legitimate option then, so the country wasn't founded on it. OK, so then I assume you would be fine with saying the this country was founded under "gods" to take into account the polythestic belief of indian tribes? But the fundamental premise of that entire argument is flawed, that this country was founded on the personal private beliefs of the founding fathers, or even a majority of the founding fathers. Under that logic this nation was founded on slavery too, as it was supported by a majority. But clearly this country was not, because our founding fathers were wise enough to not make their personal views that which the country would be governed by. Instead they formed a government that would be safe for everyones viewpoints, and founded a country based on the specific rights enumerated in the constitution, of which being "under God" is not one.  In fact, a proposed 1894 amendment to the constitution proposed that the constitution recognize God as the supreme authorities in human affairs. It was never ratified.

Then he says "even athiests have a God" a statement I find interesting because Webster's New World dictionary defines "athiest" as some who doesn't believe in the existance of a god, and "god" as a supernatural being with abilities to control human affairs, which science isn't. But fortuanatley for GS, hindus believe in God or to be more precise many Gods. Should we then be a nation under God(s)? GS is about to type in "no, b/c hindus didn't live in america then," but that didn't stop him from citing the US motto of "under God" as an example for his point even though that came over 150 years after the ratification of the constitution. If retroactivity is allowed in this debate, then to appease the influx of atheists and hindus and other polytheists, we would need to change the statement to "one nation, under god or multiple gods, or perhaps none at all." Or, we could be intelligent and just leave it out. WHICH IS PRECISELY WHAT THE FOUNDING FATHERS DID!

GS's rebuttal of Prom's next point, which was that the constitution is prefaced with "we the people" and not some reference to God is even more stunning in its incredible argumentation, which pretty much amounts to: "well, we aren't French" (???). Now. as, thrilled as I am that we are not French, that doesn't address the issue, in fact it strengthens our argument, because we have a bunch of people who DID believe in God that did not find it necessary to drape that belief over the nation as a whole. I commend them for that.

Then he asks where is religion mentioned? Never of course! (Assuming that somehow the 1st amendment has become a footnote or merely advisory). The one time the constitution does mention religion, it says "congress shall make no law regarding the establishment of religion." As monotheism is a religious belief, "under God" runs directly afoul of this clause. So yes, this group of deists and other assorted monotheists did find it necessary to "deny God" or to be more precise, deny that this nation was founded under God. Basically, GS is thinking "hey, i'd enforce my beliefs on everyone if given the oppurtunity, so the founding fathers must too!" Fortunatly our forefathers exercised some restraint, and were NOT willing to impose their own, even deeply held religious beliefs upon the entire populace.

But then, in the most ludicrous statement of all(with the possible exception of the france comment), GS that its the atheists trying to take over the country. What does he use to support this? He says that atheists sue people for saying "god." This never happens. What I believe GS is getting this confused with is US v. Newdow, the famed "pledge" case. But Newdow wasn't suing over the use of a word, he was suing b/c the government was endorsing a religious message, i.e. monotheism when such action is strictly prohibited via the 1st amendment. For GS's argument to hold true, atheists would have to sue to get the govt. to teach that there is no God, to publicly acknowledge that no god exists, and to make the officical statement of the government that this nation is a godless nation. But that isn't it. They are merely asking for neutrality, no govt. endorsement of either side. One side being a majority and one being a minority doesn't change that. Don't make me quote Mill again. GS holds atheists to a ridiculous double-standard, and commits a naturalistic fallacy, that the way things are are the way things ought to be. The fact that "one nation under god" is the status quo does not mean that it is correct or constitutional, and the fact that they are actively working to defend their rights doesn't mean that they are working to turn america into an atheist state. Far from it. They merely ask for a religiously neutral govt..

What is this? The shredded pieces of Prom's argument are reforming! GS, arthur anderson u are not.


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Posts: 789 | Posted: 8:16 PM on November 16, 2002 | IP
Gs_Deus

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I didn't read your post because I don't have time to read it. I know I'll regret this, but forget it. Fine, you're right. But the U.S. was NOT founded on Atheism. And I beleive that if people want to have "God" in the pledge, want to have "God" in their posters home whatever- they should have it.  Let it be. Keep america as it is- and don't stop people from expressing their beliefs.

(Edited by Gs_Deus 11/16/2002 at 9:21 PM).


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Posts: 49 | Posted: 9:18 PM on November 16, 2002 | IP
Prometheus

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Gs_Dunce says: "You, on the other hand, are simply an uneducated athiest who does not even know the definition of god."

You wrongly assume I am an atheist, I am a christian.  I just don't want god to be part of the government.  Fundamentalism and right wing catholicism have killed more brain cells than drugs ever have.  For people like Gs_Dunce,faith does not enhance reason, it replaces it.  Also, I've noticed he likes to call people who disagree with him uneducated or ignorant. Do I sense a projection of intellectual insecurity here?

Gs_Dunce Says:  "I know that America was founded on christianity."

That is absolutely wrong,and your statement only proves my point that you were using a back door to try to say America is a christian nation.

Gs_Dunce says:  "the liberal secular movement did not start until the French revolution...but secularism did not mean the same today."

No one said anything about liberal secularism.  You obviously don't know what the word secular means.  You might want to invest in a dictionary.  It means:  1. Worldly rather than spiritual.  2.  Not specifically relating to religion or to a religious body.

Gs_Dunce says:  "When is religion even mentioned?"

You've obviously never read the constitution or don't know the meaning of words again.  Religion is mentioned twice in the constitution, and both times it was exclusionary (better look that one up also).  Once stating there could be no religious test for office and again in the 1st Amendment.

Western cultures last experience with church dominated government lasted over 1,000 years when the always oppressive catholic church dominated most governments of Europe.  The Reformation broke the stranglehold the vatican had on those governments and weakened absolutism in government.  If we allow fundamentalist and right wing catholics to change our country to a theocracy, how many years will it take to throw them out here and remove the harm they do?  Will our beliefs and lifestyles pass the test of those fanatics?  How many of our freedoms will we lose?  I don't want to find myself marching to the beat of these facist with their jack boot tactics.

It seems to me that the driving forces behind fundamentalism and right wing catholicism are anger, hatred and fear.  Anger that there are other belief systems in the world, which implies the possibility that their own faith might not be the one true,right and only way after all.  Hatred of those competing faiths and their followers for daring to exist and declining to convert.  And fear that if these other faiths are allowed to continue that they will seduce members away from their beliefs.  The resulting emotional turmoil from these three factors can't help but warp their overall worldview.

Great post, as always,dsadevil!  You made alot of points I would have,but pobably in a clearer fashion.  I don't believe we have  to worry about Gs_Dunce shredding anyones arguments to pieces.


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Posts: 22 | Posted: 12:44 AM on November 17, 2002 | IP
Gs_Deus

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You wrongly assume I am an atheist, I am a christian.  I just don't want god to be part of the government.  Fundamentalism and right wing catholicism have killed more brain cells than drugs ever have.  For people like Gs_Dunce,faith does not enhance reason, it replaces it.  Also, I've noticed he likes to call people who disagree with him uneducated or ignorant. Do I sense a projection of intellectual insecurity here?


Let me ask you- when was the last time you’ve gone to church? When was the last time you thought positively about God? And the fact that you are bashing Christianity only proves that you are not Christian- because bashing Christianity is bashing itself. Now you claim that faith only replaces reason? THis is laughable- when have I even made a statement about this? Never! I have my personal beliefs, why are you bringing this into the argument? Once again, this proves that you’re only an uneducated “Christian” as you claim, though I seriously doubt that.

That is absolutely wrong,and your statement only proves my point that you were using a back door to try to say America is a christian nation.


Try reading my posts- I retracted  my beliefs. I said that the United States was founded on God- but then again, I understand now from DsDevil’s post that America was not even founded on that- it was founded on freedom. Now, as I've said before, I don’t think that people should stop others from expressing their beliefs- as many people are doing right now.

No one said anything about liberal secularism.  You obviously don't know what the word secular means.  You might want to invest in a dictionary.  It means:  1. Worldly rather than spiritual.  2.  Not specifically relating to religion or to a religious body.


I certainly do know what Liberal Secularism is! This is what I've been taking for the past three years at my local city college- American History- in San Francisco too, which is the most liberal city in the United States! I usually use the second definition of secularism, saying “not part of any religious group”. And again, I say that Liberal Secularism did not begin until the French Revolution, when the Jacobins took power. I understand now you don’t know who the Jacobins are- they were people who wanted to bring the revolution across Europe and spread their liberal (more like today’s liberaterian) beliefs across Europe. They would kill anyone who was not secular- Catholics, specifically. Now go do some research before you speak out of your @ss.

You've obviously never read the constitution or don't know the meaning of words again.  Religion is mentioned twice in the constitution, and both times it was exclusionary (better look that one up also).  Once stating there could be no religious test for office and again in the 1st Amendment.


I’ve read the Constitution twice, bud. I’m reading the first amendment right now...

“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”

As you can see, when “religion” is mentioned, it said that we have freedom of speech. But today especially, religious groups have to keep their mouths shut about God. When I went to Elementary school, saying “God” was like cussing. The school prohibited the pledge from ever being said, and they taught us Gay rights instead. I had a very bad experience. After leaving Elementary, I was homeschooled for 4 years, and am now enrolled at my local City College, which is very liberal. Again, everybody hates God, and doesn’t believe in any God. I cannot mention my belief, lest people will show disrespect towards me.

Western cultures last experience with church dominated government lasted over 1,000 years when the always oppressive catholic church dominated most governments of Europe.  The Reformation broke the stranglehold the vatican had on those governments and weakened absolutism in government.  If we allow fundamentalist and right wing catholics to change our country to a theocracy, how many years will it take to throw them out here and remove the harm they do?  Will our beliefs and lifestyles pass the test of those fanatics?  How many of our freedoms will we lose?  I don't want to find myself marching to the beat of these facist with their jack boot tactics.


Were you educated in a Public Boston schooled? Because you have been brainwashed. Yes, the Catholic Church has done some wrongs- so what? Doesn’t everyone? Don’t make me mention the wrongs of Atheists! They have done FAR worse than anything the Catholic CHurch has. As a matter of fact, I think I will mention them.

1) Hitler. That’s right boys and girls, Hitler was not a Christian. In fact, he had several meetings to plan to destroy Christianity- Catholicism espeically. Oh sure- he told the Germans he was Christian, by how else would he gain the support of the people?

2. Stalin. Stalin was undoubtedly an atheist. He killed thousands, starving millions of soldiers and families to their deaths. He had no care for life.

3. China. Right now, China is continuing to murder thousands of Catholics who follow the pope. China has a Catholic Church that has to obey the Chinese Government- but there are still Roman Catholics who follow the pope. For this reason, they are being tortured and killed. Two months ago a Bishop was killed in Prison. This is how corrupt this Atheist nation is.

The list goes on.  Christ even told us that there would be wolves in the Church. There will always be corrupt people- you cannot stop that, and don’t even try to say to simply rid the world of religion to end corruption, because that wont help. Atheism was flared by Communism. I think you should re-think who are the fascist ones (yes, I know what fascism is, and I hope you do!).

It seems to me that the driving forces behind fundamentalism and right wing catholicism are anger, hatred and fear.  Anger that there are other belief systems in the world, which implies the possibility that their own faith might not be the one true,right and only way after all.  Hatred of those competing faiths and their followers for daring to exist and declining to convert.  And fear that if these other faiths are allowed to continue that they will seduce members away from their beliefs.  The resulting emotional turmoil from these three factors can't help but warp their overall worldview.


I am literally bursting into laughter because of your idiocy. I usually am never angry in my debates- but lately people have been such idiots that it’s very difficult to control myself. Atheists are usually the ones I find getting angry all the time.

Anger that there are other belief systems in the world, which implies the possibility that their own faith might not be the one true,right and only way after all.


It doesn’t even  cross my mind that another belief is true, because I am convinced that mine is right. I’ve researched it before- being atheist (not publicly) for a while- and discovered only depression in being atheist.  No, I am sure my belief is right, and I try to show that others beliefs are *wrong*- though I do respect people’s beliefs if they don’t want to discuss it. Now, your statements above just totally prove that you are not Christian. First you said you were Christian- and now you’re refering to Christians as “Fundamentalists”, “right wingers” and “haters”. How could you be Christian and call yourself these? Maybe it’s because you’re NOT Christian! Ahhh. Much better.


I don't believe we have  to worry about Gs_Dunce shredding anyones arguments to pieces.

Oh yes you will!

(Edited by Gs_Deus 11/17/2002 at 02:40 AM).


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Posts: 49 | Posted: 02:39 AM on November 17, 2002 | IP
Prometheus

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Gs_Dunce says:  "The fact that you are bashing christianity only proves that you are not christian."

I am not bashing christianity, only your perverted interpretation of christianity.  You have no idea what my religious views are, so why do you make such a claim?  That would be like me saying you are not a catholic.  Fundamentalism and right wing catholicism are only two form of christianity, there are many other forms of christianity which do not agree with either of these two extremes.

What I am bashing is fundamentalism and right wing catholicism, which go hand in hand,in trying to dictate what others should do and believe.  Fundamentalist and right wing catholics show complete disregard for the views of those with whom they disagree.  When these people gather in their cult-like atmospheres, they come to believe their credos so absolutely they feel morally exempt when trampling on the rights of others.  The dismiss the views of others because they reach certitude through their claimed superiority of faith.  They disparge those who oppose their views with ad hominem attacks.  They have no scruples when trampling the rights of others because they think their view of the world is superior to all others.  Their arrogance of faith seems to have no limit.  They have complete disregard for the democratic principles because of perverse interpretation of holy scriptures.

Gs_Dunce says: "uneducated...speak out your @ss...your idiocy...brainwashed..."

You don't seem to be able to discuss an issue without attacking the other person.  Why is that?  You did mention you were "homeschooled for 4 years;" that probably explains it.  May want to brush up on your social skills.

Now you've got me doing it, so back to the topic at hand.  The main reason for maintaining the wall of separation between church and state is that no government should ever be placed into a position of making a choice as to what sort of religious matter should be presented in public and what sort should not be presented.  If you analyze the many Supreme Court decisions handed down on this subject, you will find a consistency of branding as unconstitutional each situation when some government official was selecting what religious mesage to present in a public forum to an essentially captive audience.

The main reason that we need this level of separation betwen church and state is because there are many sects in the U.S. which find fault with the religious messages put forth by the majority.  When the catholics, the mormons and the baptists can't even agree on what should or should not be said, how are we ever going to reach agreement when all the other possibilities are thrown into the mix.  It is only wise for the government to remain neutral, that is why the founding fathers did not make this a christian nation when they could have if they had wanted to do so.

Everyone is free to believe anything they want, let just keep it out of the government.





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Posts: 22 | Posted: 05:04 AM on November 17, 2002 | IP
AlexanderTheGreat

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wow, intense guys. you guys have a lot of free time, or else you type really fast.
so...I was reading through a lot of this stuff, and was wondering, is Gs-deus going off on these angry, personal tangents because he already knows he lost the argument that this thread is about? america is supposed to be a secular nation (not atheist, just secular). personally, i don't think it really is, which sucks big time. anyway, that means of course people should be able religious statements, in or outside school for example, but just not endorsed by govt funded institution (such as a public school). so pray in school, just at your locker. now...i have to do my own plug for homos here. gs-deus, if you admit this should be a secular nation, shouldn't gay rights be an ok topic in school? i mean if it is a secular nation, they should be able to marry, have sex legally, etc., right? and why do I always hear this crap about religious people being persecuted by atheists and agnostics?? sakata said it, and now gs-deus is saying it. i have lots of friends who are religious. i have never seen a christian getting disrespected by an atheist. i am sure it has happened before, but i really don't see it as an epidemic. the bigger problem is minorities in this country (like gays, sorry, had to do it again), whose rights (that should be guaranteed by a supposedly secular govt) are obstructed by a govt which is in reality excessively influenced by Christian groups and institutions.


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Posts: 292 | Posted: 05:35 AM on November 17, 2002 | IP
dsadevil

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Just as a quick q, GS? You cited the banning of saying "God" as an example of evil secularism in schools. But wouldn't that be saying God's name in vain, thus breaking the 10 commandments? Is it possible that to some, saying "god" in vain is as bad as swearing, and thus our dear uber-liberals San Franciscans were actually trying to be inclusive rather than exclusive? hmm...


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

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Posts: 789 | Posted: 10:09 AM on November 17, 2002 | IP
Gs_Deus

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I refuse to debate, since I know I will not change your beliefs- since you all will not accept anything I say- and that I am one against three. I find it exceptionally difficult to believe how idiotic people are- claiming that because I have been homeschooled for 4 years means I'm brainwashed. Firstly, I live in San Francisco- it is impossible to be brainwashed here. Everywhere I go, I have to open my mind to something. San Francisco is extremely liberal, and I hate living here. Again, I say that it makes me sick to think that a minority and an uneducated one believes that they can run america- I say no. This will never be.


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Posts: 49 | Posted: 5:01 PM on November 17, 2002 | IP
dsadevil

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That was incredibly incoherant. Congratulations. Oh, and I can't speak for my comrades, but I know that I keep an open mind on everything. That's how I became pro-free trade, and anti-aff action. The fact that you aren't persuading me doesn't mean that it's impossible. It means you aren't being persuasive enough.


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 10:30 PM on November 17, 2002 | IP
AlexanderTheGreat

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DSA-why are u anti-affirmative action??

GS-DEUS - when did i ever say i wanted to run america? i just said in a secular society religion should not run it. I just think everyone should have an equal voice and equal rights.




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Posts: 292 | Posted: 12:16 AM on November 18, 2002 | IP
Gs_Deus

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OMG Alexander- thanks for making me laugh.

Wait, i'm not going to debate ;-)


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Posts: 49 | Posted: 12:31 AM on November 18, 2002 | IP
Cool-Hand-Dave

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that's almost sad, gs.  won't give your opinions because nobody agrees.  sometimes these debates do get frustrating but you don't just refuse to debate.  


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Posts: 134 | Posted: 12:56 AM on November 18, 2002 | IP
Gs_Deus

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won't give your opinions because nobody agrees.


It's not that they don't agree- its that they are way to close-minded to agree! It's no use!


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Posts: 49 | Posted: 5:16 PM on November 18, 2002 | IP
    
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