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     Morality Pushers
       The Bane of Humanity, the scourge of the earth, etc.

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serp

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The right justifies morality pushing by claiming that this is a "Christian country" based on "Christian values."  Yet the first president of the United States was a freemason.  No one can claim that this country was founded on Christian values except on the genuine Christian value of liberty of conscience.  It was founded to some extent in opposition to England's forcing of moral or "Christian values," hence the seperation of church and state.

The Puritan influence at the formation of the U.S. government was one among many.  Even at that, the puritan state represented a failure by the time the U.S. government formed.  The puritans represented a community which harkened back to the ways of England and unsuccessfully attempted to enforce a state mandated "righteousness" on everyone.  This resulted in individuals such as Roger Williams being banished for expressing his own religious conscience, and others were put to death for being different.  By the time the U.S. was formed, New England's influence was greatly moderated by their short history of failure in attempting to return to the ways of England.  

At this point in history, the U.S. again harkens back to Old England.  The President confuses the role of government with that of religion and brings the country to the brink of a spiritual dark ages.  Clinton and Carter were bad enough with their vulgar mixing of government and religion.  This President brings the priests of Baal into the White House on a regular basis to run it.

There is nothing that sickens my stomach more than to hear Dr. Dobson the dunce or AFA or Pat Robertson or the Pope or a hundred other cronies criticizing the government or the American people for not living more of the life they prescribe.  The life they prescribe has nothing to do with the Bible since the Bible condemns judging those which are outside the faith.  By doing so, they show they are outside, in the deepest darkest places, they are outside.  They are spiritual blackholes.


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All truth is found within the
healthy soul.
 


Posts: 48 | Posted: 5:15 PM on January 25, 2006 | IP
EMyers

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The right justifies morality

Um, so you're saying morality NEEDS to be justified?


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 09:15 AM on January 26, 2006 | IP
serp

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I said, "The right justifies morality PUSHING."

The right has a problem differentiating between morality and morality pushing.


-------
All truth is found within the
healthy soul.
 


Posts: 48 | Posted: 12:49 PM on January 26, 2006 | IP
EMyers

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How do you define "morality"?


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 10:44 PM on January 26, 2006 | IP
serp

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Morality is the perfect balance between defending liberty of conscience and protecting individuals against violence.




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All truth is found within the
healthy soul.
 


Posts: 48 | Posted: 5:30 PM on January 27, 2006 | IP
EMyers

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Webster equates it to being concerned with the difference between good and evil.  If one deals with morality, then one must define it.  The main problem is that most people already know what is moral and immoral.  It's not that they don't want "someone's definition" of morality pushed on them.  They simply don't want to hear it.  For a more simplistic example... I've had people threaten me with physical violence because I told them that their turn signal was out.  Obviously, they chose not to use it (after all, why get upset if it was really out and you didn't know).  I didn't tell them "they didn't use it".  I didn't call them names.  Why then were they upset?  Simple, they were wrong and didn't want it being brought to their attention.  By the same token, only immoral people get upset when morality is defined.


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 7:52 PM on January 27, 2006 | IP
serp

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You gave a high level definition of morality.  I went further and defined good with my one sentence definition of morality.  I am not sure that most people have an intuitive understanding of good and evil.  Their ideas of right and wrong have been largely externally formed in them by others who think they know what good and evil are.

You gave an example of a morality which rules the flesh, i.e. it is right to have a turn signal which works because it helps prevent accidents in the flesh.  I will give you a simplistic example of a morality which rules the spirit and which is not necessarily obvious to those who have no true understanding of good and evil.  Coercing individuals to say pledges of allegiance or oaths whether as a requirement of school, employment, or legal testimony can strongly violate a person’s conscience as a Christian since oaths of any kind are condemned by scripture.  This is a type of morality pushing which is, in truth, a false morality.  I contend that false morality as coercive morality is responsible for widespread dulling of conscience worldwide and consequently a widespread inability to judge deeper morality.



-------
All truth is found within the
healthy soul.
 


Posts: 48 | Posted: 1:52 PM on January 28, 2006 | IP
EMyers

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Just to make sure I'm following you... are you saying that the Pledge of Allegiance is immoral or are you saying that Mathew 5:33-37 is immoral?


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 5:28 PM on January 28, 2006 | IP
serp

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If adults were forced to read the bible than that would be anti-moral as well.

This thread has begun to bore me.  This is probably my last post.


-------
All truth is found within the
healthy soul.
 


Posts: 48 | Posted: 08:47 AM on January 29, 2006 | IP
EMyers

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Ok, well that didn't answer the question...


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 11:16 PM on January 29, 2006 | IP
serp

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My answer is there, but I'm not sure you want to see it.  Though I doubt we are going to make much more progress on this, I do appreciate that you keep your responses relatively brief.  I will try a few more times to get my point across.

The deeper definition of morality, like all manners of the spirit, is subtle.  Though you asked me to say whether the Pledge of Alliegence is immoral or Matthew 5:33-37 is immoral, morality does not necessarily apply to these according to the definition that I gave of morality.  Morality is as much a way, a spirit, as it is "a thing."

If someone coerces someone else to say a pledge or an oath, or coerces them to read or believe the bible then that is immoral.  On the other hand, if someone says the pledge of allegiance outloud because they like to say it, or someone reads the Bible outloud because they like to read it outloud, then the morality of that cannot necessarily be judged (except by god).

The spirit of coercion or violence determines whether something can be judged by another as immoral.

I'll give another simple example.  An employer once told my wife that she had to make more eye contact with people because "if someone doesn't make eye contact it can mean they have something to hide."  The implication here is that it is "good" to make eye contact, and "bad" not to.  This is the kind of morality pushing that sears the conscience of a nation.  For us, many kinds of eye contact violate our conscience in god according to Ephesians 6:6 (KJV or Tyndale 1534).  This kind of morality pushing which may seem small can have a giant impact on one's faith.  On the other hand, I could not judge another as immoral for making frequent eye contact, if they do not coerce me to do so.


-------
All truth is found within the
healthy soul.
 


Posts: 48 | Posted: 5:55 PM on February 3, 2006 | IP
EMyers

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So other than coercing someone... what exactly do you consider immoral?  I believe that murder is wrong.  The United States punishes people that murder other people.  By your standards, is the United States (government) "pushing" their morality on you by coercing you not to murder someone?  I haven't been able to tell by your posts what actions, feelings, etc. that you feel fall into moral or immoral behavior (other than defining immoral behavior).  


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 7:37 PM on February 3, 2006 | IP
serp

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Here again, the definition of morality that I gave prohibits violence, but you don't care to see it.

Let me explain it another way.  On one side of the equation of morality is the prohibition against violence which deals with the flesh; on the other side of the equation is the prohibition against coercion (liberty of conscience) which deals with the spirit.  When the issue of morality has to deal more with violence than coercion, as in the case of murder, the individual and state has the right to defend against it, even if it means a measure of coercion.  When the issue of morality has to deal more with coercion than violence, as in the case of forcing eye contact, the individual and state has the right to defend against it, even if it means a measure of violence, i.e. screaming and shouting, to accomplish that defense.  When the issue of morality has to deal with both coercion and violence more or less equally, then a compromise must be worked out such as in abortion.  For the case of abortion, perhaps allowing abortion until mid-term is a reasonable compromise between the right of the woman against coercion and the right of the fetus to be considered an individual against violence.

In cases that neither coercion or violence applies, e.g. non-aggressive forms of homosexuality, this "formula of morality" can not judge morality, i.e. it is for god to decide.


-------
All truth is found within the
healthy soul.
 


Posts: 48 | Posted: 2:15 PM on February 4, 2006 | IP
EMyers

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I think most Christians would agree with you that God has already decided.


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 2:37 PM on February 4, 2006 | IP
    
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