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     Israel has No "right" to exist
       Such claim call Christ a liar

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unworthy servant

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To say that Israel has a “right to exist” is to say both Christ and God are a liar and unjust!























O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one killing the prophets and stoning those who are sent to her, how often would I have gathered your children together, even as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you would not! Behold, your house is left to you desolate.  For I say to you, You shall not see Me from now on until you say, "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord." Matthew 23: 37-39

But I intend to remind you, you once knowing these things, that the Lord having delivered a people out of the land of Egypt, in the second place destroyed the ones not believing. Jude 1:5

Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He who denies the Father and the Son is anti-christ. Everyone who denies the Son neither has the Father. The one confessing the Son also has the Father. I John 2:22-23

The LORD shall bring you, and your king which you shall set over you, to a nation which neither you nor your fathers have known. And there you shall serve other gods, wood and stone.  Deuteronomy 28:36

(Edited by unworthy servant 7/29/2006 at 5:58 PM).

(Edited by unworthy servant 7/29/2006 at 7:12 PM).


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WE MUST OBEY GOD RATHER THAN MEN - ACTS 5:29
 


Posts: 196 | Posted: 5:22 PM on July 29, 2006 | IP
EMyers

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The nation of Israel has no more "right" to exist than does the nation of America.  However, they do have the ability to exist.  And they do currently exist.  I certainly do not find any scripture that states that Christians must destroy the nation of Israel.  I believe that is up to God to decide.  As you can see, He is currently not doing so.  Pleasant dreams.


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 7:32 PM on July 29, 2006 | IP
unworthy servant

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Quote from EMyers at 7:32 PM on July 29, 2006 :
The nation of Israel has no more "right" to exist than does the nation of America.  However, they do have the ability to exist.  And they do currently exist.  I certainly do not find any scripture that states that Christians must destroy the nation of Israel.  I believe that is up to God to decide.  As you can see, He is currently not doing so.  Pleasant dreams.


EMyers' Translation: Christ is lying.

1 Thess 2: 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the breath of His mouth and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming, 9 whose coming is according to the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 and with all deceit of unrighteousness in those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, so that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie, 12 so that all those who do not believe the truth, but delight in unrighteousness, might be condemned.





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WE MUST OBEY GOD RATHER THAN MEN - ACTS 5:29
 


Posts: 196 | Posted: 11:09 PM on July 29, 2006 | IP
EMyers

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Ok, where in that scripture does it say "and the faithful will destroy the nation of Israel"?


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 08:30 AM on July 30, 2006 | IP
jack-frost

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religon brings nothing but pain and suffering, by singling out races and other religons you just proved it.
Religon creats more hate than love. Throw down the book, look at yourself in the mirror and ask yourself does religon make me a better and happier personne?
 


Posts: 3 | Posted: 12:12 PM on July 30, 2006 | IP
unworthy servant

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Quote from EMyers at 08:30 AM on July 30, 2006 :
Ok, where in that scripture does it say "and the faithful will destroy the nation of Israel"?


Oh but you have put the cart before the horse.. .  .show me the verse which says "the  faithful shall help establish and protect antichrist" and "the faithful shall call Christ a liar". . . .

“For many deceivers HAVE entered into the world, who do not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh. This is the DECEIVER AND THE ANTICHRIST.  Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.  Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.” 2 John 1:7-9





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WE MUST OBEY GOD RATHER THAN MEN - ACTS 5:29
 


Posts: 196 | Posted: 1:28 PM on July 30, 2006 | IP
EMyers

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So you agree that it doesn't.  Just confirming.


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 6:32 PM on July 30, 2006 | IP
unworthy servant

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Quote from EMyers at 6:32 PM on July 30, 2006 :
So you agree that it doesn't.  Just confirming.


I agree that you call Jesus a liar. . . .that is confirmed. . . I agree to nothing else.. . . .




(Edited by unworthy servant 7/30/2006 at 11:48 PM).


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WE MUST OBEY GOD RATHER THAN MEN - ACTS 5:29
 


Posts: 196 | Posted: 11:47 PM on July 30, 2006 | IP
EMyers

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Oh good.  More of your  blather.  The topic that YOU posted was "Israel has No 'right' to exist".  No country has a right to exist although they are certainly welcome to try.  However, based on your tone I thought you were actually going to give us some sort of scriptural reference supporting your statement, but it seems to be more of your (well, I'd call it out of context, but it doesn't even have anything to do with the topic, so I'm not sure what to call it) random scriptures that don't seem to have any sort of cohesiveness to them (at least not to the argument you are making).  Please take the scriptures that you have given and EXPLAIN how they apply to the topic at hand.  Simply repeating them is not explaining.  Since I have not seen a single person back up your arguments so far I feel it is safe to say that none of us are drawing the conclusions that you seem to be.  Perhaps if we could understand why you believe these particular scriptures are applicable to the topic that YOU chose, we might be able to see where you are coming from.


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 5:57 PM on July 31, 2006 | IP
unworthy servant

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Quote from EMyers at 5:57 PM on July 31, 2006 :
Oh good.  More of your  blather.  The topic that YOU posted was "Israel has No 'right' to exist".  No country has a right to exist although they are certainly welcome to try.  However, based on your tone I thought you were actually going to give us some sort of scriptural reference supporting your statement, but it seems to be more of your (well, I'd call it out of context, but it doesn't even have anything to do with the topic, so I'm not sure what to call it) random scriptures that don't seem to have any sort of cohesiveness to them (at least not to the argument you are making).  Please take the scriptures that you have given and EXPLAIN how they apply to the topic at hand.  Simply repeating them is not explaining.  Since I have not seen a single person back up your arguments so far I feel it is safe to say that none of us are drawing the conclusions that you seem to be.  Perhaps if we could understand why you believe these particular scriptures are applicable to the topic that YOU chose, we might be able to see where you are coming from.


Ah the only one blathering appears to be you, sinceyou have failed to "prove" my verses are "out of context". . . .go figure. . . .nor have you shown "proof" that Israel has a "right" to exist. . . . .but all you have done is blather. . . . congrats. . . .


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WE MUST OBEY GOD RATHER THAN MEN - ACTS 5:29
 


Posts: 196 | Posted: 3:15 PM on August 1, 2006 | IP
EMyers

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I'm still waiting for your proof.  You've given me nothing to counter.


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 6:13 PM on August 1, 2006 | IP
unworthy servant

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Quote from EMyers at 6:13 PM on August 1, 2006 :
I'm still waiting for your proof.  You've given me nothing to counter.


Thanks for your projection tactic. . . . .

Sometimes a false accusation can be more brazen and direct. Some recent research we conducted with Derek Rucker looked at what we called the projection tactic - accusing someone else of the misdeed you yourself are committing. (9)

Pratkanis, Anthony and Aronson, Elliot.“Age of Propaganda": The Everyday Use and Abuse of Persuasion” (New York: 2001) Page 109.





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WE MUST OBEY GOD RATHER THAN MEN - ACTS 5:29
 


Posts: 196 | Posted: 3:24 PM on August 3, 2006 | IP
EntwickelnCollin

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Ah the only one blathering appears to be you, sinceyou have failed to "prove" my verses are "out of context". . . .go figure. . . .nor have you shown "proof" that Israel has a "right" to exist. . . . .but all you have done is blather. . . . congrats. . . .


EMyers didn't say Israel has a right to exist. He said no country (that would include the US) has a right to exist. Obviously, he wouldn't have to prove Israel has a right to exist in that instance.

Unworthy, the burden of proof is on the claimant. If your assertion is more than that Israel has no right to exist, but that it is wrong to let it exist, you have not proved your point, as is your job in this instance.


-------
http://ummcash.org/officers.html
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/08/wow_1.php
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/08/a_triumphant_beginning.php
We're official!
 


Posts: 729 | Posted: 4:28 PM on August 3, 2006 | IP
unworthy servant

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Quote from EntwickelnCollin at 4:28 PM on August 3, 2006 :
Ah the only one blathering appears to be you, sinceyou have failed to "prove" my verses are "out of context". . . .go figure. . . .nor have you shown "proof" that Israel has a "right" to exist. . . . .but all you have done is blather. . . . congrats. . . .


EMyers didn't say Israel has a right to exist.


Learn how to read. . . .

Quote from EMyers at 08:30 AM on July 30, 2006 :
Ok, where in that scripture does it say "and the faithful will destroy the nation of Israel"?








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WE MUST OBEY GOD RATHER THAN MEN - ACTS 5:29
 


Posts: 196 | Posted: 3:45 PM on August 4, 2006 | IP
EMyers

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Now you're just embarassing yourself.  Those two statements you just put together have nothing to do with each other.  


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 8:55 PM on August 4, 2006 | IP
unworthy servant

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Quote from EMyers at 8:55 PM on August 4, 2006 :
Now you're just embarassing yourself.  Those two statements you just put together have nothing to do with each other.  


only something with a "right to exist" has to be defended. . . which is why you ask for the justifcation to destroy what you believe in your evil heart has a "right to exist"..."and the faithful will destroy the nation of Israel"?"  And since Israel never was to be created to start with any defense of the pagan state is made by a pagan. . . .which is why the pseudo-Christian EMeyers loves to defend the cursed anti-Christs. . . which is why he has failed miseriably to defend his position but has only been able to blather. . .

Ah the only one blathering appears to be you, since you have failed to "prove" my verses are "out of context". . . .go figure. . . .nor have you shown "proof" that Israel has a "right" to exist. . . . .but all you have done is blather. . . . congrats. . . .


(Edited by unworthy servant 8/5/2006 at 7:17 PM).


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WE MUST OBEY GOD RATHER THAN MEN - ACTS 5:29
 


Posts: 196 | Posted: 7:14 PM on August 5, 2006 | IP
EMyers

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So, are you saying America has a right to exist?  If it doesn't, should we still not defend it?  I'm not following your logic.  Where in the Bible does it say (specifically) that Christians are to destroy the nation of Israel?  


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 9:39 PM on August 5, 2006 | IP
EntwickelnCollin

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only something with a "right to exist" has to be defended. . .


So, we needn't defend our own homes, since the Bible makes no mention of their rights to exist either.


-------
http://ummcash.org/officers.html
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/08/wow_1.php
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/08/a_triumphant_beginning.php
We're official!
 


Posts: 729 | Posted: 9:43 PM on August 5, 2006 | IP
unworthy servant

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Quote from EntwickelnCollin at 9:43 PM on August 5, 2006 :
only something with a "right to exist" has to be defended. . .


So, we needn't defend our own homes, since the Bible makes no mention of their rights to exist either.


Really . . . . show proof of your speculations. . . .chapter and verse. . . .your stacking of the deck is so tiring. . . . .sorry but your speculation doesn't rise to the level of "proof". . .

Quote from EMyers at 9:39 PM on August 5, 2006 :
So, are you saying America has a right to exist?  If it doesn't, should we still not defend it?  I'm not following your logic.  Where in the Bible does it say (specifically) that Christians are to destroy the nation of Israel?  


Hahahhaaaa you have no "logic" since you have no ability to prove your stand. . . since you can't prove "out of context". . . . you can't prove of America has "no right to exist" since you failed to bring chapter and verse. . . . . you can't prove Israel had a "right" to be created, bring chapter and verse. . . you can't prove your stand that you can call Christ and God a liar or unjust. . . .all you can do as a sophist is blather. . . .go figure. . .

Sophist: Any of a group of professional fifth-century B.C. Greek philosophers and teachers who speculated on theology, metaphysics, and the sciences, and who were later characterized by Plato as superficial manipulators of rhetoric and dialectic.











(Edited by unworthy servant 8/6/2006 at 08:31 AM).


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WE MUST OBEY GOD RATHER THAN MEN - ACTS 5:29
 


Posts: 196 | Posted: 08:13 AM on August 6, 2006 | IP
EntwickelnCollin

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We've already proven America has no Biblical right to exist, because America itself is never mentioned anywhere in the Bible.


Really . . . . show proof of your speculations. . . .chapter and verse. . . .your stacking of the deck is so tiring. . . . .sorry but your speculation doesn't rise to the level of "proof". . .


You want me to find a verse that doesn't have the words "United States" or "America" in them? Okay. Let's start with the entire Old and New Testaments.


Making more sense now, find me a verse that says any nation--any nation at all--has a right to exist.

(Edited by EntwickelnCollin 8/6/2006 at 10:51 AM).


-------
http://ummcash.org/officers.html
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/08/wow_1.php
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/08/a_triumphant_beginning.php
We're official!
 


Posts: 729 | Posted: 10:49 AM on August 6, 2006 | IP
unworthy servant

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Quote from EntwickelnCollin at 10:49 AM on August 6, 2006 :
We've already proven America has no Biblical right to exist, because America itself is never mentioned anywhere in the Bible.


Really . . . . show proof of your speculations. . . .chapter and verse. . . .your stacking of the deck is so tiring. . . . .sorry but your speculation doesn't rise to the level of "proof". . .


You want me to find a verse that doesn't have the words "United States" or "America" in them? Okay. Let's start with the entire Old and New Testaments. Making more sense now, find me a verse that says any nation--any nation at all--has a right to exist.
(Edited by EntwickelnCollin 8/6/2006 at 10:51 AM).


Ah the sign of desperation. . . .you can't answer point by point which is why all you can do is distort and can't provide a single verse to "prove" your "point". . . .sophist. . . . as there is no verse which says cursed Godless Jew have a "right" to establish Israel. . . . .in fact I have provided many which prove this fact. . . . and America certainly is mentioned in the Scriptures. . . since it is inhabited by the sons of men. . . .so Christians have a right to America. . . . too bad. . .here is OT and NT. . . .see if you had some facts you wouldn't sound so much like a fool. . . but I won't count on that changing. . .

Psalms 115: 15 Ye are blessed of the LORD which made heaven and earth. 16 The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD'S: but the earth hath he given to the children of men.

Matthew 5:5 Blessed are the meek! For they shall inherit the earth.

Psalms 8:When I look at Your heavens, the work of Your fingers, the moon and the stars which You have established; 4 what is man that You are mindful of him, and the son of man, that You visit him? 5 For You have made him a little lower than the angels, and have crowned him with glory and honor. 6 You made him rule over the works of Your hands; You have put all things under his feet: 7 all sheep and oxen, yes, and the beasts of the field; 8 the birds of the heavens, and the fish of the sea, and all that pass through the paths of the seas. 9 O Jehovah, our Lord, how excellent is Your name in all the earth!

Canon found that, as one's confidence is weakened, a person becomes less prone to listen to arguments against his or her beliefs. Thus the very people you want to convince and whose opinions might be the most susceptible to be changed are the ones lest likely to continue to expose themselves to a communication designed for that purpose. Information campaigns frequently fail to change attitudes, a fact of  life persuasive life that was observed by Herbert Hyman and Paul Sheatsley as far back as 1947. (2) In explaining the frequent failure of information campaigns, Hyman and Sheatsley noted that people tend to acquire information mostly about things that they find of interest and tend to avoid information that does not agree with their beliefs. Should someone find that they have been unavoidably exposed to uninteresting and disagreeable information, a common response is to distort and reinterpret that information, thus ignoring its implications for updating beliefs and attitudes.

Pratkanis, Anthony and Aronson, Elliot.“Age of Propaganda": The Everyday Use and Abuse of Persuasion” (New York: 2001) Page 281-282.





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WE MUST OBEY GOD RATHER THAN MEN - ACTS 5:29
 


Posts: 196 | Posted: 11:44 AM on August 6, 2006 | IP
EMyers

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Psalms 115: 15 Ye are blessed of the LORD which made heaven and earth. 16 The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD'S: but the earth hath he given to the children of men.



So you are saying that Jews aren't "children of men"?  Odd, I thought they were the ones who wrote Psalms.  Wait, wasn't Christ a Jew?  You're not claiming he was an American are you?  I'm so confused.

Matthew 5:5 Blessed are the meek! For they shall inherit the earth.


Are you refering to Jews or Americans?  Which one are the meek?

Psalms 8:When I look at Your heavens, the work of Your fingers, the moon and the stars which You have established; 4 what is man that You are mindful of him, and the son of man, that You visit him? 5 For You have made him a little lower than the angels, and have crowned him with glory and honor. 6 You made him rule over the works of Your hands; You have put all things under his feet: 7 all sheep and oxen, yes, and the beasts of the field; 8 the birds of the heavens, and the fish of the sea, and all that pass through the paths of the seas. 9 O Jehovah, our Lord, how excellent is Your name in all the earth!


Um, are you saying Jews aren't men?  What are you saying here?

Canon found that, as one's confidence is weakened, a person becomes less prone to listen to arguments against his or her beliefs.

Guess that's why you're unwilling to listen.

Congratulations on clearing up absolutely nothing and not providing a shred of evidence stating that the nation of Israel has a right to exist or not exist.

P.S.  sophist (n) A scholar or thinker....
Thanks for the compliment.


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 2:53 PM on August 6, 2006 | IP
EntwickelnCollin

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Psalms 115: 15 Ye are blessed of the LORD which made heaven and earth. 16 The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD'S: but the earth hath he given to the children of men.


Yup. And this magically applies to the United States but not to Israel.


-------
http://ummcash.org/officers.html
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/08/wow_1.php
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/08/a_triumphant_beginning.php
We're official!
 


Posts: 729 | Posted: 2:54 PM on August 6, 2006 | IP
EMyers

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The funny thing is he completely ignores the fact that Christ and every single one of the apostles was (drum roll please) a Jew!  By his way of thinking we should've killed all the apostles.

I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. (Romans 11:1-2)




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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 5:26 PM on August 6, 2006 | IP
unworthy servant

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Quote from EMyers at 2:53 PM on August 6, 2006 :
Psalms 115: 15 Ye are blessed of the LORD which made heaven and earth. 16 The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD'S: but the earth hath he given to the children of men.

So you are saying that Jews aren't "children of men"?  Odd, I thought they were the ones who wrote Psalms.  Wait, wasn't Christ a Jew?  You're not claiming he was an American are you?  I'm so confused.


You mean the cursed Godless anti-Christs that God kicked out of Jeruslaem?

Matthew 5:5 Blessed are the meek! For they shall inherit the earth.


Quote from EMyers at 2:53 PM on August 6, 2006 :
Are you refering to Jews or Americans?  Which one are the meek?


Are you refering to the cursed Godless anti-Christs that God kicked out of Jeruslaem?

Psalms 8:When I look at Your heavens, the work of Your fingers, the moon and the stars which You have established; 4 what is man that You are mindful of him, and the son of man, that You visit him? 5 For You have made him a little lower than the angels, and have crowned him with glory and honor. 6 You made him rule over the works of Your hands; You have put all things under his feet: 7 all sheep and oxen, yes, and the beasts of the field; 8 the birds of the heavens, and the fish of the sea, and all that pass through the paths of the seas. 9 O Jehovah, our Lord, how excellent is Your name in all the earth!

Quote from EMyers at 2:53 PM on August 6, 2006 :
Um, are you saying Jews aren't men?  What are you saying here?


When did I say the cursed Godless anti-Christs that God kicked out of Jeruslaem, that Christ called the synaguoge of satan, weren't men?

Quote from EMyers at 2:53 PM on August 6, 2006 :
Canon found that, as one's confidence is weakened, a person becomes less prone to listen to arguments against his or her beliefs.

Guess that's why you're unwilling to listen.


Projection tactic. . . your small mind can't think up anything original. . . go figure. . .

Quote from EMyers at 2:53 PM on August 6, 2006 :
Congratulations on clearing up absolutely nothing and not providing a shred of evidence stating that the nation of Israel has a right to exist or not exist.
P.S.  sophist (n) A scholar or thinker....
Thanks for the compliment.


Only a subintelligent person would think that I gave you a compliment. . .especially when I defined the parameters of the term. . . and a sophist in modern day terms would be a propagandist. . . . . . . and again you have failed to refute but can only distort. . . .go figure. .. .

Luke 21:. 15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.




(Edited by unworthy servant 8/7/2006 at 3:58 PM).


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WE MUST OBEY GOD RATHER THAN MEN - ACTS 5:29
 


Posts: 196 | Posted: 3:55 PM on August 7, 2006 | IP
unworthy servant

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Quote from EMyers at 5:26 PM on August 6, 2006 :The funny thing is he completely ignores the fact that Christ and every single one of the apostles was (drum roll please) a Jew!  By his way of thinking we should've killed all the apostles.


Let's see what Christ said about apostles. . . . .

And he answered and said to them, My mother and my brethren are these who hear the word of God, and do it.  Luke 8:21

And he answered them, saying, Who is my mother, or my brethren?  And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.  Mark 3:33-35

But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.   Matthew 12:48-50

He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.  John 8:47

He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father’s which sent me.   John 14:24

And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked. But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.  Luke 11:27-28


v.s. what He said about the cursed Godless anti-Christ jews. . . . aka the synaguoge of satan. . .

I Thessalonians 2:14-15 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews: Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:

“For many deceivers HAVE entered into the world, who do not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh. This is the DECEIVER AND THE ANTICHRIST.  Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.  Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.” 2 John 1:7-9

“Young ones, it is a last hour, and as you heard that the Antichrist is coming, EVEN NOW MANY ANTICHRISTS HAVE RISEN UP, from which you know that it is a last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us. For if they were of us, they would have remained with us; but they left so that it might be revealed that they all are not of us.” I John 2:18-19

“By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God;  and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is THE ANTICHRIST YOU HEARD IS COMING, AND EVEN NOW IS ALREADY IN THE WORLD.”  1 John 4:2-3

“And when Silas and Timothy had come from Macedonia, Paul was pressed in the spirit and testified to the Jews that Jesus is the Christ. And they resisting and blaspheming, shaking his garment, he said to them, Your blood is on your own heads. I am pure from it . From now on I will go to the nations.” Acts 18:5-6

Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.  Matthew 27:25

“For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will give signs and wonders in order to seduce, if possible, even the elect.”   Mark 13:22

“For false Christs and false prophets will arise and show great signs and wonders; so much so that, if it were possible, they would deceive even the elect.” Matthew 24:24


Rev 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

John 8: 31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; 32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
33 They answered him, We be Abraham’s seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? 34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. 35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. 36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. 37 I know that ye are Abraham’s seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. 38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father. 39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham’s children, ye would do the works of Abraham. 40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. 41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. 42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. 43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. 44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. 45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. 46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me? 47 He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

Quote from EMyers at 5:26 PM on August 6, 2006 :
I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. (Romans 11:1-2)


Really. . . . which ones did God say were the ones He wouldn't cast away versus the one He would cast away. . . .

Jude1: 4 For certain men crept in secretly, those having been of old previously written into this condemnation, ungodly ones perverting the grace of our God for unbridled lust, and denying the only Master, God, even our Lord Jesus Christ. 5 But I intend to remind you, you once knowing these things, that the Lord having delivered a people out of the land of Egypt, in the second place destroyed the ones not believing. 6 And those angels not having kept their first place, but having deserted their dwelling-place, He has kept in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of a great Day; 7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them, in like manner to these, committing fornication, and going away after other flesh, laid down an example before-times, undergoing vengeance of everlasting fire.

Psalms 50: 16 But to the wicked, God says, What is it to you, to declare My statutes, and to take up My covenant in your mouth? 17 Yea, you hate to be taught, and you toss My words behind you.

Thanks for proving repeatledly you are clueless on this topic. . .

(Edited by unworthy servant 8/7/2006 at 4:14 PM).


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WE MUST OBEY GOD RATHER THAN MEN - ACTS 5:29
 


Posts: 196 | Posted: 4:06 PM on August 7, 2006 | IP
unworthy servant

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Quote from EntwickelnCollin at 2:54 PM on August 6, 2006 :
Psalms 115: 15 Ye are blessed of the LORD which made heaven and earth. 16 The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD'S: but the earth hath he given to the children of men.


Yup. And this magically applies to the United States but not to Israel.


The only thing "magical" is the spell you are under that makes you think you know what you are talking about. . . .when you don't have a clue what you are talking about. .  go figure. .

2 Thess 2: 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the breath of His mouth and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming, 9 whose coming is according to the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 and with all deceit of unrighteousness in those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, so that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie, 12 so that all those who do not believe the truth, but delight in unrighteousness, might be condemned.

. . . since if you did know what you were talking about (which you don't) you would know the covenants were CONDITIONAL. . . . . . so it certainly proves you are clueless on the New and the Old Testament. . no surprise. . . .

Deuteronomy 28:15 And it shall be, if you will not listen to the voice of the LORD your God, to observe and to do all His commandments and His statutes which I command you today, all these curses shall come on you and overtake you. 16 You shall be cursed in the city, and cursed in the field. 17 Your basket and your store shall be cursed. 18 The fruit of your body shall be cursed, and the fruit of your land, the increase of your cows, and the flocks of your sheep. 19 You shall be cursed when you come in, and cursed when you go out. 20 The LORD shall send on you cursing, vexation, and rebuke, in all that you set your hand to do, until you are destroyed, and until you perish quickly, because of the wickedness of your doings by which you have forsaken Me. 21 The LORD shall make the plague cling to you until He has consumed you from off the land where you go to possess it. 22 The LORD shall strike you with lung disease and with a fever, and with an inflammation, and with an extreme burning, and with the sword, and with blasting, and with mildew. And they shall pursue you until you perish. 23 And your heavens over your head shall be bronze, and the earth that is under you iron. 24 The LORD shall make the rain of your land powder and dust. It shall come down from the heavens on you until you are destroyed. 25 The LORD shall cause you to be stricken before your enemies. You shall go out one way against them, and flee seven ways before them. And you shall be a trembling to all the kingdoms of the earth. 26 And your body shall be food to all birds of the air, and to the beasts of the earth. And no man shall frighten them away. 27 The LORD will strike you with the boils of Egypt, and with the hemorrhoids, and with the scab, and with the itch, of which you cannot be healed. 28 The LORD shall strike you with madness and blindness, and astonishment of heart. 29 And you shall grope at noonday, as the blind gropes in darkness, and you shall not prosper in your ways. And you shall always be pressed down and spoiled forever, and no man shall save you. 30 You shall become engaged to a wife, and another man shall lie with her. You shall build a house, and you shall not live in it. You shall plant a vineyard, and you shall not gather the grapes of it. 31 Your ox shall be slain before your eyes, and you shall not eat of it. Your ass shall be violently taken away from before your face, and shall not be restored to you, your sheep given to your enemies, and you shall have none to rescue them. 32 Your sons and your daughters shall be given to another people, and your eyes shall look and fail for them all the day long. And there shall be no power in your hand. 33 The fruit of your land, and all your labors, shall be eaten up by a nation which you do not know. And you shall always be oppressed and crushed, 34 and you shall be mad because of that which you shall see with the sight of your eyes. 35 The LORD shall strike you in the knees and in the legs with an evil ulcer that cannot be healed, from the sole of your foot to the top of your head. 36 The LORD shall bring you, and your king which you shall set over you, to a nation which neither you nor your fathers have known. And there you shall serve other gods, wood and stone. 37 And you shall become an astonishment, a proverb, and a by-word among all nations where the LORD shall lead you. 38 You shall carry much seed out into the field, and shall gather little in, for the locust shall eat it. 39 You shall plant vineyards and dress them , but shall neither drink the wine nor gather, for the worm shall eat them. 40 You shall have olive trees throughout all your coasts, but you shall not anoint with the oil, for your olive shall drop off its fruit . 41 You shall father sons and daughters, but you shall not enjoy them, for they shall go into captivity. 42 All your trees and the fruit of your land the locust shall possess. 43 The stranger within you shall get up above you very high, and you shall come down very low. 44 He shall loan to you, and you shall not loan to him. He shall be the head, and you shall be the tail.
45 And all these curses shall come on you, and shall pursue you and overtake you, until you are destroyed, because you did not listen to the voice of the LORD your God, to keep His commandments and His statutes which He commanded you. 46 And they shall be on you for a sign and for a wonder, and on your seed forever. 47 Because you did not serve the LORD your God with joyfulness and with gladness of heart for the abundance of all things ; 48 therefore you shall serve your enemies which the LORD shall send against you, in hunger, and in thirst, and in nakedness, and in the lack of all things . And he shall put a yoke of iron on your neck until he has destroyed you. 49 The LORD shall bring a nation against you from far, from the end of the earth, as the eagle flies; a nation whose tongue you shall not understand, 50 a nation fierce of face who shall not regard the person of the old, nor show favor to the young. 51 And he shall eat the fruit of your cattle and the fruit of your land, until you are destroyed. He shall not leave you grain, wine, or oil, the increase of your livestock, or flocks of your sheep, until he has destroyed you. 52 And he shall besiege you in all your gates until your high and fortified walls in which you trusted come down, throughout all the land. And he shall besiege you in all your gates throughout all your land which the LORD your God has given you. 53 And you shall eat the fruit of your own body, the flesh of your sons and of your daughters, which the LORD your God has given you, in the siege and in the anguish with which your enemies shall distress you. 54 The man that is tender among you, and very delicate, his eye shall be evil toward his brother and toward the wife of his bosom, and toward the rest of his sons which he has left; 55 so that he will not give to any of them of the flesh of his sons whom he shall eat, because he has nothing left to him in the siege and in the anguish with which your enemies shall distress you in all your gates. 56 The tender and delicate woman among you, who would not have ventured to set the sole of her foot on the ground for delicateness and tenderness, her eye shall be evil toward the husband of her bosom, and toward her son, and toward her daughter, 57 and toward her young one who comes out from between her feet, and toward her sons whom she shall bear. For she shall eat them secretly for lack of all things , in the siege and anguish with which your enemies shall distress you in your gates. 58 If you will not observe to do all the words of this law that are written in this book, that you may fear this glorious and fearful name, THE LORD YOUR GOD, 59 then the LORD will make your plagues remarkable, and the plagues of your seed great and persistent plagues; with evil and long-lasting sicknesses. 60 Also, He will bring on you all the diseases of Egypt of which you were afraid. And they shall cling to you. 61 Also, every sickness and every plague which is not written in the book of this law, the LORD will bring them on you until you are destroyed. 62 And you shall be left few in number, whereas you were as the stars of the heavens for multitude, because you would not obey the voice of the LORD your God. 63 And it shall be, as the LORD rejoiced over you to do you good and to multiply you, so the LORD will rejoice over you to destroy you and to bring you to nothing. And you shall be plucked from off the land where you go to possess it. 64 And the LORD shall scatter you among all people, from the one end of the earth even to the other , and you shall serve other gods there, which neither you nor your fathers have known, wood and stone. 65 And among these nations you shall find no ease, neither shall the sole of your foot have rest. But the LORD shall give you there a trembling heart and failing of eyes and sorrow of mind. 66 And your life shall hang in doubt before you, and you shall fear day and night, and shall have no assurance of your life. 67 In the morning you shall say, Oh that it were evening! And at evening you shall say, Oh that it were morning, for the fear of your heart with which you shall fear, and for the sight of your eyes which you shall see. 68 And the LORD shall bring you into Egypt again with ships, by the way of which I said to you, You shall see it no more again. And there you shall be sold to your enemies for men-slaves and women-slaves, and no man shall buy you .

(Edited by unworthy servant 8/7/2006 at 4:44 PM).


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WE MUST OBEY GOD RATHER THAN MEN - ACTS 5:29
 


Posts: 196 | Posted: 4:10 PM on August 7, 2006 | IP
EMyers

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I think I've finally figured out your confusion.  You are confusing the religion of the Jews with the nation of the Jews.  Christ was a Jew.  Paul was a Jew.  The fact that the apostles and most of the early disciples were Christians did not mean they were no longer Jews.  Even your own examples have stated that they are the NATURAL branches and that some (not all) had been cut off because of their unbelief and that the wild branches (i.e Gentiles) were allowed to be grafted in.  It also mentions that if we (Gentiles) which were unnatural branches could be grafted in, how much easier it is for the natural branches (i.e. Jews) to be grafted in when the believe.  Plus, the prophecies regarding the temple being destroyed, the abomination that causes desolation and the dispersion of the Jews was fulfilled in A.D. 70.  I know of no such prophecy (or commandment) that stated that people of Jewish descent could never move back into the land of Israel or that Christians were to destroy them (convert, yes, destroy, no).  The truth is that the nation of Israel does exist.  It looks nothing like the old nation of Israel.  They don't even follow the Old Testament anymore (and haven't since A.D. 70 at the latest).  I've asked you before, but you keep dodging the question.  What do YOU believe that CHRISTIANS are supposed to do (specifically) about the NATION of ISRAEL?  Is it YOUR belief that we should DESTROY it?  It is a "yes" or "no" question.  I'm sure even you can handle that.


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 5:48 PM on August 7, 2006 | IP
unworthy servant

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Quote from EMyers at 5:48 PM on August 7, 2006 :
I think I've finally figured out your confusion.  You are confusing the religion of the Jews with the nation of the Jews.  Christ was a Jew.  Paul was a Jew.  


The only one confused is you. . .no surprise there. . . .here is a jew to explain something to you seeing how you can only hear jews. . . .

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/235714D7-3186-4DA3-835F-3715DC03C318.htm

Anti-Israel rabbis support Iran
Sunday 12 March 2006, 18:35 Makka Time, 15:35 GMT
Members of an orthodox Jewish sect have met top Iranian officials in Tehran to show support for the Iranian president's call for the destruction of Israel, reports say.

Leading rabbis of Neturei Karta, an anti-Zionist group of ultra-Orthodox Jews who consider the existence of Israel an abomination, met with Gholamreza Aghazadeh, Iran's Vice President, the top-selling Yediot Aharonot reported.

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has said the Jewish state "must be wiped off the map" or moved as far away as Alaska - comments that have provoked anger in the West and condemnation from the UN Security Council.

Rabbi Dovid Weiss, the group's spokesman, was quoted as supporting Ahmadinejad's call during an interview on Iranian television last week.

Although all of the rabbis who visited Iran live in either New York or London, there are some 400 Neturei Karta families living in Jerusalem who refuse to recognise Israel's authority.

'Wish for calm'

The Iranian Fars News Agency reports that the group said in a statement that Ahmadinejad's call for a "world free from Zionism ... is nothing more than wishing for a better world dominated by peace and calm."

"This means a true hope for a peaceful life and coexistence between the Jewish and Muslim communities following the dismantlement of the Zionist regime," the group's statement added.

The group also said that it was "a dangerous deviation" to pretend that the Iranian president is an anti-Jewish or anti-Semitic personality since President Ahmadinejad, in fact, restated what the late founder of the Islamic Republic Ayatollah Khomeini had frequently stated.

"That is, Zionism is different from Judaism and while the Zionist state of Israel must be disintegrated, the Jewish communities world wide and the religion of Judaism must be respected."

Holocaust

Following Ahmadinejad's claim that the Holocaust - the killing of an estimated six million Jews by the Nazis and their allies during World War II - was a myth used to justify the creation of Israel, the visiting rabbis agreed the mass killing had been hijacked by Zionists.

Weiss was quoted as saying: "The issue of the Holocaust has to do with the Zionist use ... The Zionists are using this issue. We, the Jews who were killed in the Holocaust, do not use the Holocaust as a tool for promoting our cause."

"Neturei Karta are well known for their hatred towards Israel," Yediot Aharonot wrote, "but it seems that this time they have crossed the line."

"The issue of the Holocaust has to do with the Zionist use ... The Zionists are using this issue. We, the Jews who were killed in the Holocaust, do not use the Holocaust as a tool for promoting our cause"

Rabbi Dovid Weiss
Neturei Karta

Quote from EMyers at 5:48 PM on August 7, 2006 :
 They don't even follow the Old Testament anymore (and haven't since A.D. 70 at the latest).


hahahahhahaaa Funny their torah contains the OT.. .random garbage just keeps coming from your head. . .I still am not counting on any facts popping out. . . .

(Edited by unworthy servant 8/7/2006 at 10:21 PM).


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WE MUST OBEY GOD RATHER THAN MEN - ACTS 5:29
 


Posts: 196 | Posted: 10:16 PM on August 7, 2006 | IP
EMyers

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Once again you have dodged answering the question.  Why does it scare you so?  It's a simple "yes" or "no".  

And, if the Jews follow the Old Testament as you seem to think they do... where are they making their sacrifices?  What Levites are currently acting as priests?  When was the last time you heard of one giving his property back to the original owners every seven years?  Who is their king and is he still adhering to the limit on how much land he can own?  Have you actually read the Old Testament?




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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 10:34 PM on August 7, 2006 | IP
unworthy servant

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Quote from EMyers at 10:34 PM on August 7, 2006 :
Once again you have dodged answering the question.  Why does it scare you so?  It's a simple "yes" or "no".  

And, if the Jews follow the Old Testament as you seem to think they do... where are they making their sacrifices?  What Levites are currently acting as priests?  When was the last time you heard of one giving his property back to the original owners every seven years?  Who is their king and is he still adhering to the limit on how much land he can own?  Have you actually read the Old Testament?


Multiple times and I actually I understand it. . . .unlike you. . . oh you see "Brainiac". . . they are cursed Godless anti-Christs which explains why they were booted from Israel. . . . so they lost their utensils and their red heifer ashes. . . . but they still practice Passover. . . . and a variety of other Feast days which were abolished when they killed Christ. .  . . . . . and as soon as you answer all my previous questions which you repeatedly failed to answer I will consider answering yours. . . .but you can't answer mine so I guess I won't have to answer yours. . . hahahaaa. . .. .  

. . .. btw "Brainiac" the cursed, Godless, anti-Christs aren't "levitical priests" they are the Pharisees. . . . congrats you support the enemies of Christ. . no wonder why you call Christ a liar. . . ."good job". . .

The Pharisees

“The spread of a modified Pharisaism to the ends of the earth has fortunately not prevented the endurance throughout the centuries of the unchanged faith, in Rabbinic Judaism, Pharisaism became Talmudism, Talmudism became Medieval Rabbinism, and Medieval Rabbinism became Modern Rabbinism. But throughout these changes of name, inevitable adaption of custom, and adjustments of Law, the spirit of the ancient Pharisee survives unaltered. When the Jew reads his prayers, he is reciting formulae prepared by pre-Maccabean scholars; when he dons the cloak prescribed for the Day of of Atonement and Passover Eve, he is wearing the festival garment of ancient Jerusalem; when he studies the Talmud, he is actually repeating the arguments used in Palestine academies.”

The Pharisees: The Sociological Background of Their Faith by Louis Finkelstein. Provost and Solomon Schechter Professor of Theology at the Jewish Theological Seminary of America. Volume #1. Philadelphia, The Jewish Publication Society of America, 1938. Pages xx-xxi.

Conversely, the follower of the prophet gave way to the Hasid, and the latter was succeeded by the Pharisee. When Pharisaism became practically synonymous with Judaism, the divisive forces made themselves felt within it, and there arose the two factions of Shammaites and Hillelites to struggle for the control of the party.

The Pharisees: The Sociological Background of Their Faith by Louis Finkelstein. Provost and Solomon Schechter Professor of Theology at the Jewish Theological Seminary of America. Volume #1. Philadelphia, The Jewish Publication Society of America, 1938. Page 3.

And yet the essential unity of the Pharisaic interpretation of the Law has been preserved. Bitter controversies have arisen between different communities, and also between individuals, with regard to the correct interpretation of the Law.  But rabbinic Judaism, the first born child of Pharisaism, remains a unit until this day.

The Pharisees: The Sociological Background of Their Faith by Louis Finkelstein. Provost and Solomon Schechter Professor of Theology at the Jewish Theological Seminary of America. Volume #2. Philadelphia, The Jewish Publication Society of America, 1938. Page 622.

(Edited by unworthy servant 8/7/2006 at 11:12 PM).


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WE MUST OBEY GOD RATHER THAN MEN - ACTS 5:29
 


Posts: 196 | Posted: 11:03 PM on August 7, 2006 | IP
EMyers

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Multiple times and I actually I understand it. . . .unlike you. . . oh you see "Brainiac". . . they are cursed Godless anti-Christs which explains why they were booted from Israel. . . . so they lost their utensils and their red heifer ashes. . . . but they still practice Passover. . . . and a variety of other Feast days which were abolished when they killed Christ. .  . . . . . and as soon as you answer all my previous questions which you repeatedly failed to answer I will consider answering yours. . . .but you can't answer mine so I guess I won't have to answer yours. . . hahahaaa. . .. .  

I've re-read this entire topic from the beginning and I haven't found a single question that you've asked me.  Let me say again (and you need only respond with a "yes" or a "no", it shouldn't be beyond your capability, but I may be wrong)....

Do YOU believe that CHRISTIANS should DESTROY the COUNTRY of ISRAEL?


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 09:02 AM on August 8, 2006 | IP
EMyers

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My apologies.  As I was reading through my posts I was looking for questions, not answer to my questions.  Since no intelligent person answers a question with a question I didn't bother go over what I supposed were answers to my question.  I apologize for overestimating you.  

On to the question that you answered my question with.... When did you say that "cursed Godless anti-Christs..." weren't men?  Well, in giving your alleged proof that Israel had no right to exist you used a verse that talked about man being made a little lower than the angels and made absolutely no mention of the Jews.  My only possible assumption was that you were saying that Jews weren't men, but that didn't make any sense so I asked you about it.  Since you find it impossible to actually answer a question you simply posed a question back.  Since you have put question marks at the end of sentences (as opposed to questions) before and no intelligent person would answer a question with a question I assumed that this was your answer and that, like most of your posts, I simply had no clue what you were actually trying to say.

Ok, now that I've answered your answer (or was it your question, I forget), I'll pose it to you one more time.... Do YOU believe that CHRISTIANS are supposed to DESTROY the COUNTRY of ISRAEL?  Quit ducking.  Quit stalling.  Quit avoiding.  "Yes" or "No".


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 9:48 PM on August 8, 2006 | IP
unworthy servant

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Quote from EMyers at 9:48 PM on August 8, 2006 :
My apologies. . . . .   I apologize for overestimating you.  . . . .


Are you going to apologize for being a liar and a moron? Since that is one of many question you haven't responded to. . . .answer them all. . . .like the proof you can call Christ a liar. . . . my verses  are out of context. . .etc. . . .


(Edited by admin 8/9/2006 at 6:24 PM).


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WE MUST OBEY GOD RATHER THAN MEN - ACTS 5:29
 


Posts: 196 | Posted: 08:46 AM on August 9, 2006 | IP
EMyers

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I knew you were to chicken to answer.


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 10:39 AM on August 9, 2006 | IP
EMyers

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P.S. Here is post from the very first "answer" you gave to the very first "question" I posed to you...

Quote from EMyers at 08:30 AM on July 30, 2006 :
Ok, where in that scripture does it say "and the faithful will destroy the nation of Israel"?




Oh but you have put the cart before the horse.. .  .show me the verse which says "the  faithful shall help establish and protect antichrist" and "the faithful shall call Christ a liar". . . .


The first question is still in your court.  You still haven't bothered to answer it.  You can play games about how I haven't answer "all of your questions", but you've yet to answer mine and I posed the first query to you.  How about you quit avoiding questions and actually answer any.


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 10:43 AM on August 9, 2006 | IP
unworthy servant

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Quote from EMyers at 10:43 AM on August 9, 2006 :
P.S. Here is post from the very first "answer" you gave to the very first "question" I posed to you...

Quote from EMyers at 08:30 AM on July 30, 2006 :
Ok, where in that scripture does it say "and the faithful will destroy the nation of Israel"?
Oh but you have put the cart before the horse.. .  .show me the verse which says "the  faithful shall help establish and protect antichrist" and "the faithful shall call Christ a liar". . . .

The first question is still in your court.  You still haven't bothered to answer it.  You can play games about how I haven't answer "all of your questions", but you've yet to answer mine and I posed the first query to you.  How about you quit avoiding questions and actually answer any.


With your cart before the horse. .  .you can't place anti-Christs in Israel so you would have to explain your "proof" for anti-Christs in Israel before I can answer your hersey. . . . heretics before the faithful. . . . that means you. . . heretic. . . . and since you have no proof you can't answer. . . .but only punt. . . .

Quote from EMyers at 10:39 AM on August 9, 2006 :
I knew you were to chicken to answer.


Ah the moron has fallen back to his projection tactic. . go figure. . .

(Edited by unworthy servant 8/9/2006 at 11:59 AM).


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WE MUST OBEY GOD RATHER THAN MEN - ACTS 5:29
 


Posts: 196 | Posted: 11:56 AM on August 9, 2006 | IP
fredguff

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Hey unworthy servent, Biblical quote mining sure is fun.  With an active mind you can get the Bible to say almost anything.  Check out the Biblical "truths" I discovered about Tiger Woods below:

Many followers of other, sometimes more popular, religions have turned to the prophecies of the Bible to try to prove that their Messiah is indeed the fulfillment of the scriptures. While we at the First Church of Tiger Woods are somewhat skeptical of this device because so much is left to one’s own interpretation, we feel that we can play this game as well as any other faith. Below are just some of the biblical prophecies that seem to indicate to us that they were actually intended to refer to Tiger Woods.

Proverbs 22:15 “Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him.”

Obviously this passage refers to Tiger’s wildness off the tee as a youth.

Isaiah 11:8 “And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp.”

A snake hole and a golf hole are about the same size, aren’t they? Plus, we are quite certain that there were snakes somewhere on the first course Tiger played.

Jeremiah 28:13 “Thus saith the LORD; Thou hast broken the yokes of wood; but thou shalt make for them yokes of iron.”

It is apparently not just coincidence that Tiger came around right as golf switched from wooden woods to metal woods.

Psalm 89:32 “Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.”

Tiger, with his stripes, punishes his opponents with his clubs.

Revelations 12:5 “And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron.”

Here the scriptures predict how Tiger, at a young age, will dominate the world with his irons.

Isaiah 10:15 “as if the rod should shake itself against them that lift it up, or as if the staff should lift up itself, as if it were no wood.”

Isaiah is obviously writing of the ease with which Tiger swings the club, almost like it swings itself.

Isaiah 11:5 “But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.”

Here he refers to Tiger taking divots and predicts Tiger will fight evil with words from his rather large lips.

Zachariah 8:4 “Thus saith the Lord of hosts: There shall yet old and old women dwell in the streets, and every man with his staff in his hand through multitude of days. And the streets of the city shall be full of boys and girls, playing in the streets therof.”

This scripture foretells the increase in popularity of golf due to Tiger’s emergence, especially among inner city youths.

Isaiah 42:16 “I will lead them in paths that they have not known: I will make darkness light before them and crooked things straight.”

Zachariah 14:6 “There shall be one day, which is known to the Lord, not day nor night; and in the time of the evening there shall be light.”

Both of these passages are obvious references to Tiger’s final hole at the 2000 NEC Invitational where he hit his second shot to within two feet in complete darkness and the gallery spontaneously lit his way with cigarette lighters.

Isaiah 63:2 “Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat?”

Nahun 2:3 “The shield of his mighty men is made red, the valiant men are in scarlet.”

Jeremiah 4:30 “thou clothest thyself with scarlet”

Daniel 5:7 “shall be clothed with scarlet, and have a chain of gold about his neck, and shall be the third ruler in the kingdom.”

Now we understand why Tiger wears Red on Sundays (and yes, he used to wear a gold chain and, behind Bobby Jones and Jack Nicklaus, could be considered the third ruler of the golf kingdom).

Isaiah 41:2-5 “He shall rule over kings. He shall give them as the dust to his sword, as stubble driven by the wind, to his bow. He shall pursue them, he shall pass in peace, no path shall appear after his feet.”

Tiger has already largely fulfilled this prophecy (just ask the “King” Arnold Palmer), and may complete it when he switches from metal spikes to spikeless golf shoes.

Isaiah 41:11 “Behold all that fight against thee shall be confounded and ashamed, they shall be as nothing, and the men shall perish that strive against him.”

Isaiah 43:20 “The beast of the field shall glorify me;”

Isaiah 52:13-14 “he shall be exalted, and extolled, and shall be exceedingly high. As many have been astonished at thee,”

Jeremiah 46:15 “Why are thy valiant men come to nothing? They stood not, because the Lord hath overthrown them.”

Isaiah and Jeremiah apparently understood how demoralizing Tiger’s domination would be to his opponents.

Jeremiah 10:6 “There is none like to thee, O Lord: thou art great, and great is thy name in might.”

We already know how GREAT Tiger is, but did you know that his name spelled backwards in Latin (Regit) means “he reigns.”

Isaiah 11:6 “the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.”

Isaiah 53:5 “with his stripes we are healed.”

Luke 12:48 “But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.”

These passages can easily be interpreted to show the significance and power of the “Tiger,” and to illustrate the unprecedented pressure and burden of expectations that he has faced and conquered.

Levititcus 13:41 “And he that hath his hair fallen off from the part of his head toward his face, he is forehead bald: yet is he clean.”

Here the Bible absolves Tiger of one of his few faults, his receding hairline.

Psalm 69:4 “They that hate me without a cause are more than the hairs of mine head: they that would destroy me, being mine enemies wrongfully, are mighty: then I restored that which I took not away.”

Lots of people do hate Tiger for no good reason, but judging from that hairline, those numbers are decreasing every day.

Song of Solomon 4:2 “Thy teeth are like a flock of sheep that are even shorn, which came up from the washing; whereof everyone bears twins, and none is barren among them.”

Genesis 49:12 “His eyes shall be red with wine (fire in the eyes?), and teeth white with milk.”

Isaiah 41:15 “I have made thee as a new threshing vain, with teeth like a saw.”

Now we know why Tiger’s teeth are so big, white, and bright.

Haggai 2: “The silver is mine, and the gold is mine, saith the LORD of hosts.”

Isaiah 60:9 “bring thy sons from far, their silver and gold with them, unto the name the Lord our God.”

Here the Bible defends Tiger for accepting all of that endorsement money.

Isaiah 7:15 “Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.”

Tiger’s love of fast food is now explained.

Jeremiah 23:19-20 “Behold the whirlwind of the Lord’s indignation shall come forth, and a tempest shall break out and come upon the head of the wicked (slice?).”

Ezeckiel 13:13 “Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; I will even rend it with a stormy wind in my fury; and there shall be an overflowing shower in mine anger,”

For those who are bothered by Tiger’s temper, the Bible offers an explaination.

Ezechiel 31:2-9 “Son of man, speak to Pharaoh king of Egypt, and to his people: To whom art thou like in greatness?”

Ezechiel’s detailed/longwinded answer is that the Son of man is as great as robust forest, or “Woods.”

Isaiah 41:18 “I will open rivers in high places, and fountains in the midst of the valleys: I will make the wilderness a pool of water, and the dry land springs of water.”

Apparently Isaiah believes that many fertile golf courses will be built because of Tiger, or perhaps that He will become a course designer himself.

Ecclesiastes 1:6 “The wind goeth toward the south, and turneth about unto the north; it whirleth about continually, and the wind returneth again according to HIS circuits.”

Ezekiel 12:14 “And I will scatter toward every wind all that are about him to help him, and all his bands;”

Mark 4:39,41 “And he arose, and rebuked the wind, Peace, be still. And the wind ceased, and there was a great calm.” “And they feared exceedingly, and said one to another, What manner of man is this, that even the wind and the sea obey him?”

Tiger is a master at sensing and calculating the forces of nature, especially the wind, which seems to die down quite often when he is playing.

http://www.tigerwoodsisgod.com/newsitem.php?cnt_id=17&


 


Posts: 162 | Posted: 2:25 PM on August 9, 2006 | IP
unworthy servant

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Quote from fredguff at 2:25 PM on August 9, 2006 :
Hey unworthy servent, Biblical quote mining sure is fun.  With an active mind you can get the Bible to say almost anything.  Check out the Biblical "truths" I discovered about Tiger Woods below:


Hey now there is a third moron. . . . no surprise. . . .

Grace Halsell, who regards the movement as a cult, asks: “What is the message of the Christian Zionist? Simply stated it is this: every act taken by Israel is orchestrated by God, and should be condoned, supported, and even praised by the rest of us.' (17)

Stephen Sizer, “Christian Zionism: Road-map to Armageddon?” (Leicester: 2004), Page 21.

The Middle East Council of Churches (MECC), drawing together the historic as well as evangelical churches of the Holy Land, rejects, Christian Zionism 'as representing a heretical interpretation of Holy Scriptures',(19) while John Stott has described it as 'biblical anathema'. (20)

Stephen Sizer, “Christian Zionism: Road-map to Armageddon?” (Leicester: 2004), Page 22.

The distinction between Israel and the church and the literalist hermeneutic upon which it is based, inexorably leads to a reductionist eschatology in which Jesus is devalued, salvation and judgment redefined, and Israel sacralized.

Stephen Sizer, “Christian Zionism: Road-map to Armageddon?” (Leicester: 2004), Page 201.

He [Edward Irving (1792-1834)]insisted that missionary work especially in Southern Europe, where the Continental Society concentrated its ministry, was futile because God's judgment was about to fall on the lands of the former Roman Empire who would align themselves with the Antichrist. Some walked out of the meeting in protest while the leaders of the society accused Irving of undermining their ministry. (52)

Stephen Sizer, “Christian Zionism: Road-map to Armageddon?” (Leicester: 2004), Page 42.

[Benjamin] Newton eventually came to recognize Darby's elevation of Israel above the church as heresy, and repudiated the idea that the Jews could be blessed apart from the faith in Jesus Christ. It was 'virtually to say there are two kinds of Christianity, two Gospels, two ways, and two ends of salvation'.(96)

Stephen Sizer, Christian Zionism: Road-map to Armageddon? (Leicester: 2004) p. 53.

There is a new religious cult in America. It's not composed of so-called “crazies” so much as mainstream, middle to upper-middle class Americans. They listen-and give millions of dollars each week-to the TV evangelists who expound the fundamentals of the cult. They read Hal Lindsey and Tim LaHaye. They have one goal: to facilitate God's hand to waft them up to heaven free from all trouble, from where they will watch Armageddon and the destruction of Planet Earth. This doctrine pervades Assemblies of God, Pentacostal, and other charismatic churches, as well as Southern Baptist, independent Baptist and countless so-called Bible churches and mega-churches. At least one out of every 10 Americans is a devotee' of this cult. It is the fastest growing religious movement in Christianity today. -  Dale Crowley Jr., religious broadcaster, Washington D.C.

Grace Halsell, “Forcing God's Hand: Why Millions Pray For A Quick Rapture - - - And Destruction Of Planet Earth” (Beltsville: 2003) Page  5.

While Calvin and Luther understood the word “Israel” in Romans 11:25 to refer to the church of Jewish and Gentile believers, as had the Roman Catholic Church, Theodore Beza and Martin Bucer preferred to apply the word to unbelieving Jews and Judaism. The various editors of the Geneva Bible, influenced both by Calvin and Beza, increasingly favoured this interpretation. In the 1557 and 1560 editions, a short note on Romans 11 defined 'Israel' as the 'nation of the Jews'. In later editions, this was amplified to suggest a future conversion of the whole nation of the Jews, though not everyone particularly, shall be joined to the church of Christ.'(4) Through the notes accompanying this translation, which became the most widely read translation in England and Scotland prior to the Authorized Version of 1611, together with the writings of Puritans such as William Perkins and Hugh Broughton, the idea of the conversion of the Jewish people spread in Britain and the American Colonies. (5)

Stephen Sizer, “Christian Zionism: Road-map to Armageddon?” (Leicester: 2004), Page 27-28.

It is clear that Jesus was often misunderstood by those who took his words too literally. John's Gospel contains several instances. For example after he had cleansed the temple and was asked by the Pharisees for a sign, Jesus replied, 'Destroy this temple and I will raise it again in three days' (John 2:19). They thought he meant their temple, but Jesus does not correct their error. In the next few chapters, Nicodemus wonders how he can enter his mother's womb again (John 3:4), the Samaritan woman believes Jesus is offering her water on tap (4:15), and the religious leaders fear Jesus is advocating cannibalism by insisting they must eat his body and drink his blood (6:51-52). It is ironic therefore, that one of the most common mistakes made by people in the Gospels, who erroneously deduced a literal interpretation when Jesus intended a spiritual one is repeated today.

Stephen Sizer, “Christian Zionism: Road-map to Armageddon?” (Leicester: 2004), Page 123.

The distinction between Israel and the church and the literalist hermeneutic upon which it is based, inexorably leads to a reductionist eschatology in which Jesus is devalued, salvation and judgment redefined, and Israel sacralized.

Stephen Sizer, “Christian Zionism: Road-map to Armageddon?” (Leicester: 2004), Page 201.

Walter Riggans interprets the term [Christian Zionist] in an overtly political sense as 'any Christian who supports the Zionist aim of the sovereign State of Israel, its army, government, education etc., but it can be describe a Christian who claims to support the State of Israel'. (7)

Stephen Sizer, “Christian Zionism: Road-map to Armageddon?” (Leicester: 2004), Page 21.

3. Many of us assumed that Christian Zionism exists in fundamentalist and Evangelical churches only. Upon closer observation, we discovered that in reality Christian Zionism has permeated Christians within mainline churches as well among Catholics and the Orthodox in various level and forms. It is an unconscious and superficial response to any Bible reading by people who have not the benefit of theological education or have not studied the Bible carefully and so accept things uncritically simply because they are written in the Bible. This means that our problem is not only with extremist evangelicals; it is with good hearted but ignorant Christians who need to be informed and educated.

Ateek, Naim, et al editors. “Challenging Christian Zionism: Theology, Politics and the Israel-Palestinian Conflict” (London:2005) Page 16.





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WE MUST OBEY GOD RATHER THAN MEN - ACTS 5:29
 


Posts: 196 | Posted: 2:49 PM on August 9, 2006 | IP
EMyers

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With your cart before the horse. .  .you can't place anti-Christs in Israel so you would have to explain your "proof" for anti-Christs in Israel before I can answer your hersey. . . . heretics before the faithful. . . . that means you. . . heretic. . . . and since you have no proof you can't answer. . . .but only punt. . .

Well, he floats like a butterfly anyhow.  Like a four year old hoping to avoid answering an incriminating question you once again hide behind smoke screens to avoid answering the question.  You and I both know you don't need to know any of the reason behind my question to actually answer it.

I asked you "Ok, where in that scripture does it say 'and the faithful will destroy the nation of Israel'?"  You don't need any other information to answer that question.  You can either provide such information or you can answer "it doesn't".  The question is cut and dry.  No other information is needed for you to answer it, but you don't like to be pegged down.  I asked you if you thought Christians should destroy the country of Israel?  Only you and the Godhead know what you believe.  You don't need any more information from me to make a decision.  You either answer "yes" or "no".  Since you can't answer either, I assume you are undecided.  You could answer that as well.  But you are incapable of answering any question with a straight answer.  You just bring accusations and answer questions with questions (I'm sure your mother taught you better than that).  When you have decided what you believe and can honestly answer the question posed to you we can move on.  My guess is that you are incapable of this.  

"I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.  So because thou art lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spew thee out of my mouth. "





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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 9:12 PM on August 9, 2006 | IP
unworthy servant

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Quote from EMyers at 9:12 PM on August 9, 2006 :
With your cart before the horse. .  .you can't place anti-Christs in Israel so you would have to explain your "proof" for anti-Christs in Israel before I can answer your hersey. . . . heretics before the faithful. . . . that means you. . . heretic. . . . and since you have no proof you can't answer. . . .but only punt. . .

Well, he floats like a butterfly anyhow.  Like a four year old hoping to avoid answering an incriminating question you once again hide behind smoke screens to avoid answering the question.  You and I both know you don't need to know any of the reason behind my question to actually answer it.


Projection tactic again. . . . . .and only a moron would confuse a politcal movement (Zionism, which is the foundation of the state of Israel) with the anti-Christ religion. . . .and you have proven yourself to be a moron repeatedly. . . . go figure. . . .

http://www.nkusa.org/AboutUs/Zionism/index.cfm
Zionism and Judaism – Let Us Define Our Terms

(The key to peace in the Middle East and why Torah-True Jews are opposed to Zionism)

The following is the text of a talk delivered by Rabbi Yisroel Dovid Weiss at the United Association for Studies and Research Studies (UASR), publishers of the Middle East Affairs Journal. The lecture was part of a round table discussion, held on March 14 2002 and hosted by MEAJ editor-in-chief, Dr. Ahmed Yousef.

My task today is to speak about Judaism and Zionism. Given the current assumptions of the mass media that seems to be a redundant title. Aren’t the two one and the same? Isn’t Judaism Zionism? Aren’t Jews by definition Zionists? This is an impression which is, as I hope will become absolutely clear by the end of this talk, totally false. It is, however, an impression that is today quite widespread, both among non – Jews as well as misinformed Jews.

The correction of the historical record in the case of any falsification is beneficial, for, as is well known, the “seal of the Creator is truth.” In the case of Zionism it is not merely an academic error. It is one that has caused much death and destruction in the past and will only continue to do so in the future, G-d forbid, if it is left uncorrected. In fact, it is my hope and prayer that today’s talk will be the first step of a process which may yet lead to a just solution to the Middle East’s agony or, at least, a
significant easing of its people’s suffering.

Triumph of Falsity
But first we must ask a simple question. Why has the lie, which equates Judaism and Zionism, triumphed? Why, has what is so demonstrably false, captured the citadels of Western public opinion? And, in the end, what can we do about it? History is invariably written by those who emerge victorious from its struggles. In the case of the Zionist/Palestinian struggle of the past century this factor immediately places the Israeli state, its
propagandists and international apologists, in the ideological driver’s seat.

Second, the suffering of the Jewish people in the Second World War in Europe created extraordinary sympathy among the peoples of the earth and it was this sincere and commendable sympathy that has been
incessantly exploited by the Zionist propaganda machine since 1945.

Last, Zionist propagandists are always given to bullying tactics and censorship. It is very helpful in this regard to read former Congressman Findley’s book, They Dared to Speak Out. It is the sorry record of the
immense resources that the Zionist lobby invested in destroying the careers of politicians all across the United States who had voiced some qualms about this nation’s subservience to Israel.


Of course, anti - Zionist Jews of all political and religious orientations have long experienced the lash of the Zionist movement. In 1924, a scholarly Dutch Jew, Dr. Jacob Israel de Hahn, who functioned as a secretary of Rabbi Yosef Chaim Sonnenfeld (1849 - 1932 ) Chief Rabbi of Palestine, (may their memories be blessed) was murdered as he returned from evening prayers outside Shaarui Zedek hospital in Jerusalem. His crime was that he had been involved in discussions with Arab leaders that offered an alternative to Zionist hegemony. His murderers were members of the Haganah, a Zionist, so - called “defense organization.” In fact, Dr. de Hahn may well be described as the first victim of Zionist violence
in the Holy Land.

Yet, outside of a limited circle of anti - Zionist Jews, this cowardly and cold blooded murder is completely unknown.

Equally unknown to the general public was the ease with which Zionists turned on their fellow Jews, as in the sinking of Jewish refugee ships calculated to elicit world sympathy such as the S.S. Patria in 1940 and the
S. S. Struma in 1941 which cost the lives of 276 innocent Jews in the case of the former and 769 in the case of the latter.

More is known about pre - state terror campaigns against Arab and British innocents. Clearly, this was a movement that found human life cheap and public criticism intolerable.

Fortunately, though, Zionism is missing the most potent weapon in any ideology’s arsenal. It doesn’t have the truth on its side.

Thus, we find that, today, despite the power of the Zionist lobby and the subservience, until recently, of most politicians, media outlets and educational settings here in America, to its dictates, the historical blackout is coming to an end.

More and more people are questioning the Zionist version of history. At the United Nations and throughout Europe the questions have already been raised and largely answered. The answers are a variety of criticisms of the Israeli state. Some of these center on Israel’s practices. Others point to its underlying philosophy.

Neturei Karta International has always been in the forefront of those voices that have been raised in opposition to Zionism.

Our opposition has taken us around the world, to Yemen and Iran, to South Africa and Geneva to attend this past year’s UN Conference on Racism (and I believe we have copies available of the talks delivered there).

Our supporters have stood up to Zionist censorship and terror in the streets of Jerusalem, Manhattan, London, Manchester, Montreal and wherever Orthodox Jewish communities may be found. But, we are getting ahead of ourselves. In order to understand the sources of the current pain in the Middle East, we must define our terms. What is Judaism and what is Zionism?

Definitions
Judaism is the faith of the Jewish people. It is rooted in the revelation at Sinai where the Torah was given by G-d to man. The doctrines and laws there revealed to the Jewish people are forever binding. Throughout the
centuries Jewish scholars and saints have explained the Law. Those explanations are also part of our tradition.

This definition of Judaism was universally accepted by the Jewish people until the dawn of the so called Enlightenment in Europe. In the wake of that mass abandonment of G-d, many Jews, as well as many Christians and Muslims around the world, came to reject their faiths.

It was in the spirit of creating a man - made religion that movements such as Reform, Conservative and Reconstructionist Judaism were born. These movements had in common that they rejected some, many or all the
basics of Torah faith.

Exile and Redemption
One of the central tenets of Torah is that the Creator rewards and punishes mankind.

Through many of the Prophetic books in the Old Testament the Jewish people were warned that a serious rebellion against the Will of G-d would result in the most severe of punishments. Unchecked it could lead to the ruin of the Holy Temple in Jerusalem and the exile of the entirety of the Jewish nation.

And, it is here, my friends, in those Old Testament prophesies, that the quarrel between Judaism and Zionism begins.

Eventually the horrors foretold by the Prophets came to pass. Jewry was exiled from the Land. The first exile, also known as the Babylonian captivity, lasted only 70 years. By a series of miraculous events the people were returned to the land. This second entry into the land led to the rebuilding of the Temple. The Second Temple stood from about 2500 years ago until about 1900 years ago, then it too was destroyed. This time the cause was once again the backsliding of the people who were, as
always, held to a very demanding Divine standard.

But the prophecies of doom were accompanied with promises of consolation. The exile would not be forever. There would be years of dispersion, many of them endured under persecution. Yet, there was the promise that the people would yet return to the Land. But this return was not to be under human control. It would be heralded by the advent of Elijah the Prophet and accompanied with many miracles. And, this time, the redemption would not just be for the Jewish people but, rather for all men. All nations would cease to practice war. All would rejoice together in the Creator’s care.

There would be no want or physical deprivation. It would be a time of spiritual brotherhood, all men united in Divine service. Thus, at the burning of the Second Temple, the Jewish people were sent into an exile which extends till today. For two thousand years Jews have prayed for the end of their exile and the accompanying redemption of the entire world. They were taught by the Prophets and subsequent Sages that their exile was an expiation of their sins. This meant that the only reasonable and
permissible path to end the exile were repentance and prayer.

To suggest that one could use political or military means to escape the Creator’s decree was seen as heresy, as a denial of the Divine stewardship over sin and forgiveness. And, so, as the centuries rolled by the Jewish people prayed and awaited the miraculous events of redemption. Throughout these long years no Jew anywhere suggested – and this among a people that studied its sacred texts constantly and wrote about them voluminously – that exile could be ended by human means.

The Holy Land was always venerated, of course, and small colonies, almost uniformly devoted to prayer, contemplation and study were established there.

It was only towards the end of the nineteenth century, among Jews far estranged from their faith that the notion began to be put forth that exile was the result of Jewish weakness. Theodore Herzl and a handful of others, all ignorant or non observant of Torah began to set the process in motion that by the end of the next century would have produced untold suffering for Jews and Palestinians.

Rabbinic Opposition
These early Zionists were immediately opposed by the Rabbinic Leadership of that era.

The opposition was based on four assumptions.

1) The very concept of Zionism was a refutation of the traditional Torah belief in exile as punishment and redemption and as dependant on penitence and Divine intervention.

2) The Zionists were overwhelmingly irreligious. There claim to represent the Jewish people before the world was preposterous. How can those who reject Judaism be Jewish leaders? Their natural instincts were to uproot Torah and its observance.

3) Zionism was woefully unconcerned about non – Jews in general and the Palestinian people already living in the land. Its heavy - handed policies were sure to cause much pain and suffering and lead world Jewry into needless conflict with the nations of the world.

4) Zionism would cause Jews to be less than loyal to the governments under whose auspices they lived in exile. This might weaken Jewish patriotism and exacerbate Jewish – Gentile conflicts.

Throughout the world Zionists were a minority.

Even those Jews who had lost touch with Torah tradition were able to see that Zionism was a recipe for disaster.

Within the Zionist movement itself a tiny faction constantly criticized both the Labor and Revisionist mainstreams. This small group, associated with the Brit Shalom movement, advocated a bi – national democratic state and was willing to accept Jewish minority status therein. In the words of one of its foremost thinkers, Judah Magnes, Chancellor of Hebrew University, “If we cannot find ways of peace and understanding (with the
indigenous population), if we can only establish ourselves upon the force of bayonets, then our whole enterprise is not worthwhile and it is better that the eternal people should remain patient and wait.”

These were the words of a non – believer but of essential decency. His ideas and those of his small band of followers were cast aside by the Zionist mainstream.

Of course, in the Torah view the very notion of Jewish sovereignty of any kind over the Holy Land is forbidden. We note that even those who desired some degree of Jewish return – saw this – provided they had some basic decency, as something that had to be worked out with the approval of the native Palestinian people.

Zionist immigration poured into Palestine during the twenties and thirties. The British government tried to be all things to all men but their efforts failed. At times the Zionist conquest via immigration became an actual shooting conquest with acts of terror against Palestinians, British and other Jews becoming the order of the day.

But, despite Zionist machinations, if not for the tragic fate of the Jews in the Second World War the state of Israel probably would never have come into existence.

As stated before, after the Holocaust, the world took its sense of pity for the Jewish people and bestowed it on the Zionists.

Little if any thought was given to the deep and just desire of Palestinians to be a sovereign people in their own land or to the anti – Zionist Jews living therein.

It was as if a man having been chased from his home by a mob comes upon someone else’s else home and decides to chase out its inhabitants and take it over.

Surely the suffering the man has endured at the hands of the mob is not enough for another family to be evicted from their centuries old place of residence.

I have little doubt that if a Palestinian people, sovereign in its own land, would have been asked after the Holocaust, along with the other nations of the world, to take in Jewish refugees that they would have easily agreed. But they could not be expected to abandon, their homes and property and their very identity to make way for hundreds of thousands of Jewish refugees whose goal was to dispossess them and rule over them. Throughout the twentieth century a large segment of Orthodox Jews has remained immune to Zionist temptation. Unfortunately, during this same period, some orthodox Jews actually embraced Zionism while others attempted to co – exist with it.

Those who have maintained our faith as it was handed down to us over the centuries have fought Zionism in the Holy Land and throughout the world.

These Jews, many of whose descendants live in Jerusalem to this day, have refused to recognize the Zionist state. They do not vote in its elections or serve in its army. They do not accept any financial support from the government for their schools, thus plunging their schools into a never ending fund raising crisis.

In their view the state of Israel exists in violation of Torah basics. In its daily policies it wars against Torah practice. Its claim to represent the Jewish people is vile and ludicrous. By positing non - believers as Jewish leaders it desecrates G-d’s Great and Holy Name in public, a very grave sin in the eyes of the Torah.

The pious Jews of whom Neturei Karta is only one of many are seasoned veterans in the anti - Zionist struggle. We, of all people know how hard it is to break through the media black out, especially in the United States.

Yet, we must break through if there is to be any real peace in the Middle East. We have been informed by our Talmudic sages that any premature attempt to end exile will result in massive bloodshed.

The bloodshed is here. Israel has caused more bloodshed than anyone could have possibly imagined.

Decades before the state the Zionist desire to rule over the land led to riots, assassinations and endless death and suffering.

To this day the death toll mounts. Both hardliners and soft liners have had their hopes dashed. They have both been behind the wheels of government. And both have failed utterly.

Friends, there will be no peace in the Middle East until their is no state of Israel.

The Torah cannot be violated. Our task in exile cannot be fulfilled by trying to end exile by human agitations. Nor can our hopes for redemption be realized in the Israeli state.

Of course immediately part of the solution is, we’d like to see the West Bank and Gaza settlements dismantled. The people living there must leave as soon as is humanly possible.

But, this is only one part of the solution. Yes, the immediate decision in keeping with common sense, is to begin a Palestinian state. But these solutions are only for the interim and only a part of the solution.

The true Torah solution, the key to peace is the immediate return of Palestine to the Palestinians in its entirety including the Temple Mount and Jerusalem.

This would, of course, include a full right of return for all Palestinian refuges That is what elementary justice demands. This is the path of the Torah and of common sense.

The Jewish people have many mitzvos (commandments) to pursue in their exile. Fighting and killing Palestinian children are not among them.

Of course, today, millions of Jews reside in Palestine. Whether some, all or none of them might stay under Palestinian rule is, of course, up to the land’s rightful rulers, the Palestinians.

This will inevitably begin the process of true peace with justice and healing between the Palestinian people and the Jewish people.

In the meantime, though, given that at present many Jews living in the Holy Land are victims of Zionist propaganda what path should be pursued? For our part the obligation remains steady. It is to educate the Jewish community about the doctrinal errors and practical evils of Zionism.

It is to join our Palestinian cousins in protest against the evils of Zionism. It is to pursue peace with all men and all nations. It is to practice our faith. It is to worship the Creator with humility, with modesty and piety.

But let us go a step further and examine what the impact of Jewish anti Zionism might be on the Islamic world. First, it is important both practically and morally that Palestinian and general Islamic ideology not confuse Zionism and Judaism and by so doing leave themselves vulnerable to the charge of anti - Semitism.

Further, it could well prove beneficial to the Palestinian cause if they would publicize thier good relations with anti Zionist Jews thus undercutting the stereotype of them in the Zionist dominated media as bigots and baseless haters.

This coalition of anti - Zionist Jews and Palestinians who see the inhumanity of Zionism might well become quite a moral force for good in the world.

In any event, let us resolve to leave here this evening with our mutual moral compasses set right. Let us understand that Torah Jewry is in no way an antagonist of the Palestinian people in particular or of the Islamic world in general.

The hour is late. The civilian death toll mounts daily. Innocents on all sides suffer.

May it be the Creator’s Will that the state of Israel be peacefully dismantled speedily in our days, that Jew and Palestinian live yet in peace with each other around the world and in the Holy Land and that speedily in our days all mankind may merit the advent of Divine Redemption where G-d’s Kingdom will be accepted.




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WE MUST OBEY GOD RATHER THAN MEN - ACTS 5:29
 


Posts: 196 | Posted: 09:47 AM on August 10, 2006 | IP
Pallim

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Unworthy Servant, you are so full of hate and malice that you have forgotten what it means to be a Christian. You argue logics, facts, and theatrics with the secular posters on this forum when as a Christian these things shouldn't matter-- after all, you religion is based on faith, not facts or theories. Your flawed reasoning drives you into denial because you cannot believe you are wrong.
 


Posts: 39 | Posted: 10:21 AM on August 10, 2006 | IP
EMyers

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Again, he refuses to answer the question with a yes or no.  It is obvious that he doesn't have any real idea what to do or he'd just say so.  Instead  he brings up topics to start debates, but refuses to actually make any stands.  That fence sure looks wobbly.  

Unworthy, when you are man enough to answer the questions directly (without plagiarizing from some book you once read) this conversation can continue.  Currently it is just a monologue (since you ignore any questions actually posed to you).  You can carry on a monologue in front of the mirror without wasting any more server space.

May God grant you the wisdom to think for yourself and the courage to state your convictions.


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 10:41 AM on August 10, 2006 | IP
unworthy servant

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Quote from EMyers at 10:41 AM on August 10, 2006 :
May God grant you the wisdom to think for yourself and the courage to state your convictions.


Projection tactic from the cult member. . . .  .and only a moron would call someone's "quoting"  another's works as "plagiarization". . . . . but that is understandable since you failed to demostrate the handling of the phrase "out of context" also. . . . .moron. . . .

"pla·gia·rize   Audio pronunciation of "plagiarize" ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (plj-rz)
v. pla·gia·rized, pla·gia·riz·ing, pla·gia·riz·es
v. tr.

  1. To use and pass off (the ideas or writings of another) as one's own.
  2. To appropriate for use as one's own passages or ideas from (another).




(Edited by unworthy servant 8/10/2006 at 11:03 AM).


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WE MUST OBEY GOD RATHER THAN MEN - ACTS 5:29
 


Posts: 196 | Posted: 10:56 AM on August 10, 2006 | IP
unworthy servant

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Calling Christ a Liar: Saying Israel has a right to exist.

To say that Israel has a “right to exist” is to say both Christ and God are a liar and unjust!





Little children, it is the last time. And just as you have heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have risen up, from which we know that it is the last hour.
I John 2:18

Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He who denies the Father and the Son is anti-christ. Everyone who denies the Son neither has the Father. The one confessing the Son also has the Father. I John 2:22-23

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one killing the prophets and stoning those who are sent to her, how often would I have gathered your children together, even as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you would not! Behold, your house is left to you desolate.  For I say to you, You shall not see Me from now on until you say, "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord." Matthew 23: 37-39

But I intend to remind you, you once knowing these things, that the Lord having delivered a people out of the land of Egypt, in the second place destroyed the ones not believing. Jude 1:5

The LORD shall bring you, and your king which you shall set over you, to a nation which neither you nor your fathers have known. And there you shall serve other gods, wood and stone.  Deuteronomy 28:36


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WE MUST OBEY GOD RATHER THAN MEN - ACTS 5:29
 


Posts: 196 | Posted: 11:14 AM on August 10, 2006 | IP
EMyers

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Actually the scripture you keep quoting says that the Jews wouldn't "see Me" (that is see Christ) until they said "Blessed is He..." not that they couldn't re-enter Jerusalem.  Sheesh, at least get your scripture right while you're still too chicken to answer.


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 12:01 PM on August 10, 2006 | IP
EMyers

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Anyone seen unworthy?  We brought him some corn.


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 08:56 AM on August 12, 2006 | IP
DBettino

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Quote from unworthy servant at 11:47 PM on July 30, 2006 :
Quote from EMyers at 6:32 PM on July 30, 2006 :
So you agree that it doesn't.  Just confirming.


I agree that you call Jesus a liar. . . .that is confirmed. . . I agree to nothing else.. . . .




(Edited by unworthy servant 7/30/2006 at 11:48 PM).


It's useless, dude.  Why bother arguing with these nazareans?  I won't even let them in my house.




(Edited by DBettino 10/13/2006 at 03:17 AM).


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Wake up, West!
-Oriana Fallaci
 


Posts: 14 | Posted: 03:16 AM on October 13, 2006 | IP
EMyers

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Do you mean Nazarenes?  And to which of us are you referring?

I'm not from Nazareth.
I'm not a member of the Church of the Nazarene.
I'm not a Christian of Jewish origin.

That covers all the definitions I can find in the dictionary.  I'm pretty sure unworthy doesn't fit any of these either.


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 09:33 AM on October 13, 2006 | IP
EntwickelnCollin

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And I'm not even a theist... If by Nazareans you mean more than one, who is the second?


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http://ummcash.org/officers.html
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/08/wow_1.php
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/08/a_triumphant_beginning.php
We're official!
 


Posts: 729 | Posted: 4:14 PM on October 13, 2006 | IP
    
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