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servant_wayne

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SIX HUNDRED AND TEN GOSPEL CONTRADICTIONS

http://members.cox.net/galatians/tension.htm

The 610 Gospel contradictions presented are by no means exhaustive, but are enough to establish that when the Gospel accounts are compared to one another, not only do they lack in their alleged harmony, but in their so-called inerrancy, as well. For after one carefully considers the preponderance of this presented evidence, if they have any integrity at all, surely they shall know that to claim that God inspired the Gospel authors to record their accounts as they did is the equivalent of saying God is an incompetent author of confusion. For faith in God and faith in the Bible is not one and the same!

The children of God intuitively know that God is not an incompetent author, nor one of confusion. And thus, if one is seeking to prove the deity of Jesus through the alleged trust worthiness of the Gospels, but can not resolve contradiction number one, it is then useless of them to try and disprove the remaining contradictions.  For it only requires one legitimate Gospel contradiction to disprove the inerrancy of the Gospels.

servant_wayne@cox.net

 


Posts: 1 | Posted: 5:07 PM on August 24, 2002 | IP
Exxoss

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That was very random....but good!  
Gin the bible: 'Though shalt not impregnate one who hath undergone the holy ceremony of matrimony."  God impregnated mary, who was married to joeseph.*(i think thats his name)I also think that jesus was a homosexual.  Im serious.


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I am Exxoss, come to save you all from your impending doom!!!!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

-Exxoss
 


Posts: 438 | Posted: 4:28 PM on September 25, 2002 | IP
Sakata

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First of all, there are no contradictions between the four Gospels.  There are variations in the accounts, but they are exactly what one would expect from accurate independent eyewitnesses.  Furthermore, these variations prove that the Gospel writers were not in collusion nor were they copying from some common document, as the critics charge.  They give us independent reports exactly as each claims.
 The variations are actually an important evidence of the Bible's authenticity.  They offer further proof that later copyists or translators did not alter the record in an attempt to make all the accounts superficially agree.  The very fact that seeming contradictions were left in the Gospels is verification that these records were considered by the church to be inspired of the Holy Spirit and therefore not to be revised but to be reverently left as they were.  


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No time for mediocrity.

People call me a Bible-Thumping reactionist ...and I'm proud to bear the name.
 


Posts: 293 | Posted: 01:45 AM on October 10, 2002 | IP
tsmith2771

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Hey sakata do you beleive in the bible 100 percent word for word?


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"I have no interest in making blacks equal to whites, they are of a lesser quality and this I am sure of." -Abraham Lincoln
"You don't win a war by dying for your country, you win a war by making the other person die for theirs." -General George Patton
 


Posts: 372 | Posted: 1:28 PM on October 10, 2002 | IP
Sakata

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I believe in its teachings, obeviously I dont blindly believed every statement taken out of context, but as a whole I believe it is the infallable word of God.

(Edited by Sakata 10/10/2002 at 8:49 PM).


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No time for mediocrity.

People call me a Bible-Thumping reactionist ...and I'm proud to bear the name.
 


Posts: 293 | Posted: 8:48 PM on October 10, 2002 | IP
tsmith2771

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Then why aren't you jewish?


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"I have no interest in making blacks equal to whites, they are of a lesser quality and this I am sure of." -Abraham Lincoln
"You don't win a war by dying for your country, you win a war by making the other person die for theirs." -General George Patton
 


Posts: 372 | Posted: 10:31 PM on October 10, 2002 | IP
thistownwilleatu

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Why is it that people have to show their own insecurity by attacking religion?  And by the way...wow what an original argument, I've only heard this ten thousand times.  But I'm not going to argue in this, there is no "winning".  But the bottom line is, my being a Christian doesn't affect you or you living your life in any way so decide for yourself and shut up.


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"The greatest evil is not done in those sordid dens of evil that Dickens loved to paint ... but is conceived and ordered (moved, seconded, carried and minuted) in clear, carpeted, warmed, well-lighted offices, by quiet men with white collars and cut fingernails and smooth-shaven cheeks who do not need to raise their voices." - Thomas Merton

"I thank my God for every remembrance of you." - Paul
 


Posts: 341 | Posted: 4:19 PM on October 11, 2002 | IP
tsmith2771

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Excuse me?  Was that directed at me, and if so what the ...?


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"I have no interest in making blacks equal to whites, they are of a lesser quality and this I am sure of." -Abraham Lincoln
"You don't win a war by dying for your country, you win a war by making the other person die for theirs." -General George Patton
 


Posts: 372 | Posted: 8:58 PM on October 11, 2002 | IP
Sakata

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Why would I be Jewish? I believe Jesus is the messiah. I believe the Jews are still waiting for him to come right?


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No time for mediocrity.

People call me a Bible-Thumping reactionist ...and I'm proud to bear the name.
 


Posts: 293 | Posted: 9:22 PM on October 11, 2002 | IP
tsmith2771

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Well if you believed in the bible then you would be jewish.


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"I have no interest in making blacks equal to whites, they are of a lesser quality and this I am sure of." -Abraham Lincoln
"You don't win a war by dying for your country, you win a war by making the other person die for theirs." -General George Patton
 


Posts: 372 | Posted: 9:35 PM on October 11, 2002 | IP
Sakata

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So your saying that Christians and Catholics dont believe in the Bible? Maybe you should look into a theology class...


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No time for mediocrity.

People call me a Bible-Thumping reactionist ...and I'm proud to bear the name.
 


Posts: 293 | Posted: 9:36 PM on October 11, 2002 | IP
thistownwilleatu

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No not at all directed at you tsmith, I was referring to the first post.  What's the point?  No christian's going to go, "Wow, I'd never thought about that....maybe God doesn;t exist."  I've heard these same retarded contradictions a thousand times and the only reason people still use this is to start something.  

Sorry about that.


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"The greatest evil is not done in those sordid dens of evil that Dickens loved to paint ... but is conceived and ordered (moved, seconded, carried and minuted) in clear, carpeted, warmed, well-lighted offices, by quiet men with white collars and cut fingernails and smooth-shaven cheeks who do not need to raise their voices." - Thomas Merton

"I thank my God for every remembrance of you." - Paul
 


Posts: 341 | Posted: 10:13 PM on October 11, 2002 | IP
tsmith2771

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In the bible it says, god chosen people are the israelites.  The israelites are jewish so there fore why would you want to be anything but one of god chosen people?  Why would you want to be an outcast?  


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"I have no interest in making blacks equal to whites, they are of a lesser quality and this I am sure of." -Abraham Lincoln
"You don't win a war by dying for your country, you win a war by making the other person die for theirs." -General George Patton
 


Posts: 372 | Posted: 11:13 PM on October 11, 2002 | IP
Sakata

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he is reffering to Jews as the race not the religion, they are God's choosen people, but he came and died for all the sinners not just Jews.


-------
No time for mediocrity.

People call me a Bible-Thumping reactionist ...and I'm proud to bear the name.
 


Posts: 293 | Posted: 11:37 PM on October 11, 2002 | IP
Sakata

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and know that God does not "outcast" anyone who turns to him.


-------
No time for mediocrity.

People call me a Bible-Thumping reactionist ...and I'm proud to bear the name.
 


Posts: 293 | Posted: 11:38 PM on October 11, 2002 | IP
thistownwilleatu

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Several things changed upon the arrival and death of Jesus.  The old laws went, which so many people still take literally. Another is the definition and interpretation of God's "chosen people" aka the Israelites.


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"The greatest evil is not done in those sordid dens of evil that Dickens loved to paint ... but is conceived and ordered (moved, seconded, carried and minuted) in clear, carpeted, warmed, well-lighted offices, by quiet men with white collars and cut fingernails and smooth-shaven cheeks who do not need to raise their voices." - Thomas Merton

"I thank my God for every remembrance of you." - Paul
 


Posts: 341 | Posted: 11:40 PM on October 11, 2002 | IP
tsmith2771

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Well it says gods chosen people are the jews, plain and simple, so why would you not want to be one of gods chosen people.  Jews are not a race, anyone can be jewish so therefore he was referring to the religion.  One more contradiction that makes none of it make any sense.


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"I have no interest in making blacks equal to whites, they are of a lesser quality and this I am sure of." -Abraham Lincoln
"You don't win a war by dying for your country, you win a war by making the other person die for theirs." -General George Patton
 


Posts: 372 | Posted: 01:14 AM on October 12, 2002 | IP
tsmith2771

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If I renounced jesus as the mesiah and got bar mitzvahed and everything else that goes along with judiaism would I still be american, would I still be white?  Yes.  My race stays the same but now according to the bible I am one of the chosen people.  Explain that one to me.


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"I have no interest in making blacks equal to whites, they are of a lesser quality and this I am sure of." -Abraham Lincoln
"You don't win a war by dying for your country, you win a war by making the other person die for theirs." -General George Patton
 


Posts: 372 | Posted: 4:47 PM on October 12, 2002 | IP
Sakata

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Ok, your missing the point, He was not reffering to Jews as the religion, but Jews as the race, the decendants of Abraham, those where Gods chosen people, renoucing Jesus and becoming a person of the Jewish faith, does not make you one of Gods choosen people by blood.


-------
No time for mediocrity.

People call me a Bible-Thumping reactionist ...and I'm proud to bear the name.
 


Posts: 293 | Posted: 1:38 PM on October 13, 2002 | IP
tsmith2771

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Last time I checked I don't think there was a country called jewish or a race called jewish, jsut a religion.  I am not jewish, I believe in the scoll of st thomas but you can't talk about that because its blaspemy.


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"I have no interest in making blacks equal to whites, they are of a lesser quality and this I am sure of." -Abraham Lincoln
"You don't win a war by dying for your country, you win a war by making the other person die for theirs." -General George Patton
 


Posts: 372 | Posted: 12:17 PM on October 14, 2002 | IP
Sakata

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lol, can someone else back me up here? there IS a race called Jewish, you remember the holocaust? that was Hilter trying to exerminate the Jewish race .  God said the decendants of Abraham (aka Jews) were his choosen people.





(Edited by Sakata 10/15/2002 at 12:04 AM).


-------
No time for mediocrity.

People call me a Bible-Thumping reactionist ...and I'm proud to bear the name.
 


Posts: 293 | Posted: 12:00 AM on October 15, 2002 | IP
tsmith2771

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What makes a person jewish?  Their religion.  What makes a person white, black, asian, hispanic, mixed?  Their race.  Judisum is a religion not a race.  When you fill out a government form and it asks for race, is there a spot for jewish or christian or is there a spot for black or white?  Dsadevil, where are you on this.  And by the way sakata do you even know what the scroll of st. thomas is?


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"I have no interest in making blacks equal to whites, they are of a lesser quality and this I am sure of." -Abraham Lincoln
"You don't win a war by dying for your country, you win a war by making the other person die for theirs." -General George Patton
 


Posts: 372 | Posted: 12:39 AM on October 15, 2002 | IP
Sakata

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lol, you just dont want to give up do you? anyway, no, I havent heard of it.


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No time for mediocrity.

People call me a Bible-Thumping reactionist ...and I'm proud to bear the name.
 


Posts: 293 | Posted: 01:56 AM on October 15, 2002 | IP
tsmith2771

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The scroll of st thomas was a scroll that was found back in the 1940's.  All scientist that have viewed the scroll and ran tests on it say its the closest record to the actually words of jesus without a tape recorder.  The Catholic church and many forms of christians automatically denounced this scroll because in it jesus basically said there is no reason for churches, he said you should worship in your own way.  The christian church as a whole put this scroll down because if they accepted it everything they had would crumble to nothing.  You should read it sometiem.  Just one of the many reason why I believe in god, but not the church.


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"I have no interest in making blacks equal to whites, they are of a lesser quality and this I am sure of." -Abraham Lincoln
"You don't win a war by dying for your country, you win a war by making the other person die for theirs." -General George Patton
 


Posts: 372 | Posted: 04:09 AM on October 15, 2002 | IP
thistownwilleatu

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I've read it.  It was the catholic church that denounced it as heresy.  It would completely obliterate a lot of their traditions.  Have you seen Stigmata, it's about the book of Thomas


-------
"The greatest evil is not done in those sordid dens of evil that Dickens loved to paint ... but is conceived and ordered (moved, seconded, carried and minuted) in clear, carpeted, warmed, well-lighted offices, by quiet men with white collars and cut fingernails and smooth-shaven cheeks who do not need to raise their voices." - Thomas Merton

"I thank my God for every remembrance of you." - Paul
 


Posts: 341 | Posted: 11:38 AM on October 15, 2002 | IP
Sakata

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Well you can say what you want, but unless I could read it myself I dont trust your opinion.  There are many things in the Bible especially the old testiment, when taken out of context, can be misinterpreted to mean something else, it is likely that is one of those instances.


-------
No time for mediocrity.

People call me a Bible-Thumping reactionist ...and I'm proud to bear the name.
 


Posts: 293 | Posted: 11:34 PM on October 15, 2002 | IP
tsmith2771

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First of all, you can read that scroll anywhere, its all over the internet and you can buy it at bookstores.  Second nothing was taken out of context, it says gods people are the jews in the bible.


-------
"I have no interest in making blacks equal to whites, they are of a lesser quality and this I am sure of." -Abraham Lincoln
"You don't win a war by dying for your country, you win a war by making the other person die for theirs." -General George Patton
 


Posts: 372 | Posted: 11:53 PM on October 15, 2002 | IP
dsadevil

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I'm jewish. We aren't a race. We are a religion. While the jews tend to have a similar background, it is by no means required.


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 3:25 PM on October 16, 2002 | IP
tsmith2771

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thank you


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"I have no interest in making blacks equal to whites, they are of a lesser quality and this I am sure of." -Abraham Lincoln
"You don't win a war by dying for your country, you win a war by making the other person die for theirs." -General George Patton
 


Posts: 372 | Posted: 6:09 PM on October 16, 2002 | IP
Sakata

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I am not denying that there is a Jewish faith.  But Abrahams decendants (the people of Judea, aka Jews) where Gods choosen people.


-------
No time for mediocrity.

People call me a Bible-Thumping reactionist ...and I'm proud to bear the name.
 


Posts: 293 | Posted: 7:40 PM on October 17, 2002 | IP
tsmith2771

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And what religion where those people?


-------
"I have no interest in making blacks equal to whites, they are of a lesser quality and this I am sure of." -Abraham Lincoln
"You don't win a war by dying for your country, you win a war by making the other person die for theirs." -General George Patton
 


Posts: 372 | Posted: 8:53 PM on October 17, 2002 | IP
Sakata

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Prodominatly Jews, but there are people even today who are from Judea by heritage but are not of the religion.  Just because you are born in America doesnt make you a Christain, it makes you an American.


-------
No time for mediocrity.

People call me a Bible-Thumping reactionist ...and I'm proud to bear the name.
 


Posts: 293 | Posted: 9:37 PM on October 17, 2002 | IP
thistownwilleatu

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Please tsmith, for the love of God (or whoever) get off the 100% bible Jew race/religion thingy.


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"The greatest evil is not done in those sordid dens of evil that Dickens loved to paint ... but is conceived and ordered (moved, seconded, carried and minuted) in clear, carpeted, warmed, well-lighted offices, by quiet men with white collars and cut fingernails and smooth-shaven cheeks who do not need to raise their voices." - Thomas Merton

"I thank my God for every remembrance of you." - Paul
 


Posts: 341 | Posted: 02:26 AM on October 18, 2002 | IP
tsmith2771

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Correct me if I am wrong but this is a debate forum, not a social club.  We are under a topic of bible contradictions and no one has given valid proof that I am wrong, we are debateing.  Thats what this website is for, so thistown, please quit spamming.


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"I have no interest in making blacks equal to whites, they are of a lesser quality and this I am sure of." -Abraham Lincoln
"You don't win a war by dying for your country, you win a war by making the other person die for theirs." -General George Patton
 


Posts: 372 | Posted: 03:14 AM on October 18, 2002 | IP
thistownwilleatu

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Tsmith I wont pretend to know the answer to your question, and to be honest it doesn't really interest me that much.  but i think we can all agree that you have stated it more than enough for us to get the idea of what you're after.


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"The greatest evil is not done in those sordid dens of evil that Dickens loved to paint ... but is conceived and ordered (moved, seconded, carried and minuted) in clear, carpeted, warmed, well-lighted offices, by quiet men with white collars and cut fingernails and smooth-shaven cheeks who do not need to raise their voices." - Thomas Merton

"I thank my God for every remembrance of you." - Paul
 


Posts: 341 | Posted: 9:19 PM on October 18, 2002 | IP
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sakata is correct when she is refrenscing the jews as a race...the 12 tribes of israel that where scattered acrosss the lands are the decendants of abraham and are considered jews....whites are really technically jewish by heritage...in reference to st toms scrolls...that is correct the fact that the catholic church takes its traditions through assimilation of nordic and pagan rituals and that it would uncover the wrong doings of the catholics through there practice of these pagan rituals. Examples are the steeples of churches which came from oblisks built by sun worshipping pagans who beliieved it was the first thig to touch the sun of morning and this was to signify there respect to the sun god....also sunday(the 1st day of week to celebrate sabbath) opposed to saturday (the 7 day of week) as i was commanded in the bible. Sunday is the day of SUN worship hence the name. there is a lot of weird things and if you have any questions of more i would really like to discuss them please email me at skidemba@yahoo.com
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 03:07 AM on October 20, 2002 | IP
Sakata

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Thank you.


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No time for mediocrity.

People call me a Bible-Thumping reactionist ...and I'm proud to bear the name.
 


Posts: 293 | Posted: 9:49 PM on October 21, 2002 | IP
madbilly

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that was me talking about the 12 tribes of israel scattering but it keeps posting me as gues sometimes...this is madbilly speaking sorry


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my name is madbilly....what did you expect me to be happy when my name says Mad in it...
 


Posts: 451 | Posted: 11:38 PM on October 21, 2002 | IP
tsmith2771

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They might be two tribes they might be twelve tribes, that doesn't matter.  There religion was jewish and these are the people that god chose.  So the chosen religion of god then would be jewish wouldn't it?


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"I have no interest in making blacks equal to whites, they are of a lesser quality and this I am sure of." -Abraham Lincoln
"You don't win a war by dying for your country, you win a war by making the other person die for theirs." -General George Patton
 


Posts: 372 | Posted: 12:20 AM on October 22, 2002 | IP
Sakata

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okay, let me spell this out a little clearer for you.  Lets say God chose the people of Maine as his choosen people.  Now the people of maine happend to be all Christains (lets just say)  this does not mean that Christains are God's choosen people because there are Christains all over the world, but the people of maine are.  It is the same with the people of Judea.


-------
No time for mediocrity.

People call me a Bible-Thumping reactionist ...and I'm proud to bear the name.
 


Posts: 293 | Posted: 12:34 AM on October 22, 2002 | IP
tsmith2771

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Let me spell this out for you, he chose those people.  Of all the people in the world he chose a group of people who were jewish, now if he why would he chose a people whoes religion, the basis and worship of him, was not one that he liked or wanted?


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"I have no interest in making blacks equal to whites, they are of a lesser quality and this I am sure of." -Abraham Lincoln
"You don't win a war by dying for your country, you win a war by making the other person die for theirs." -General George Patton
 


Posts: 372 | Posted: 12:53 AM on October 22, 2002 | IP
AlexanderTheGreat

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Hmm, I son't believe but I always thought I was considered Jewish. Oh well, I can still be Irish and Native American, so I love to drink, but can't hold my liquor. So, whazzup dogs? (don't worry, I don't really talk like that) What are we talking about? The chosen people? By the way, I don't think we should tell each other to shut up or stop talking about stuff. That's not nice. and, i thought that was a very interesting first post. maybe my Solomon passage was one of those 610. i am too lazy to check. another one of my sins. By the way, anyone seen Seven? I love that movie! Ok, Ok, so, I have decided that Sakata is actually very smart, so my question is: Sakata, you're really smart, so what's the deal? Is it possible some people just have different psychological dependencies? Are some people more genetically predisposed towards religious belief? Is it nature or nurture? Ok, just kidding. But seriously, here's this book...you're dad or mom or whatever shows it to you, and poof, you decide it's all right and it is the moral authority of the cosmos. What if that book was Goodnight Moon (great book)?? Why is yours right and the Koran is wrong? Just a hunch? Or is it more of that "fingerprints of God everywhere" rubbish?


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Alex
 


Posts: 292 | Posted: 09:47 AM on October 22, 2002 | IP
madbilly

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dude you need to realize that a christian is basically a jew that belves that jesus came as the son of god whereas the jews are still waiting. Now the nazarenes where jewish but where a sect of the jews that accepted christ...now doesnt this make them christains...so arent these people messianic jews which is what christianity evolved from anyhow. These people where jewish but christian ....( i think it was the nazarenes but i might be wrong but the groups name does start with an N im shure sakata will know  (she is smart))


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my name is madbilly....what did you expect me to be happy when my name says Mad in it...
 


Posts: 451 | Posted: 12:03 PM on October 22, 2002 | IP
Sakata

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If you want to know Alex, read some of my other posts, I have answered why I believe more than once.


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No time for mediocrity.

People call me a Bible-Thumping reactionist ...and I'm proud to bear the name.
 


Posts: 293 | Posted: 8:03 PM on October 23, 2002 | IP
AlexanderTheGreat

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yes, I know, i asked you why, and you gave me a teleological (design theory) argument for God. You never answered my refutation of that. If you don't want to bother backing it up, that's fine too.


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Alex
 


Posts: 292 | Posted: 10:22 PM on October 23, 2002 | IP
FreedomFighter13

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Quote from tsmith2771 at 9:35 PM on October 11, 2002 :
Well if you believed in the bible then you would be jewish.


My buds believe in the bible and I don't but they're not jewish and we get along!



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None of you can anger me now, I'm in love and happy as a clam!
 


Posts: 34 | Posted: 09:20 AM on November 11, 2002 | IP
dsadevil

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Jews aren't a race per se. We are members of the semetic race (which includes arabs). But you can be semetic and not jewish, and jewish and not semetic.


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 4:07 PM on November 11, 2002 | IP
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There are many times confusion on the so called “Bible Contradictions”. Some contradictions are as clear as the same passage- others are not. But these are divided into two things. Consider the following. A) The bible is divided into two groups- the New and Old Testaments. The Old Testament is about Judaism, and their survival. The New Testament is about Jesus, and how he stopped the suffering of Jews, or at least attempted to. B) The Contradistinctions in the separate old testament and new, in the same passages or verses, mean nothing. Every time they are simple clarifying- not contradicting. C) Of course there are contradictions between the old and new testaments! Jesus broke the old laws and created them anew! It’s no surprise there are contradistinctions between the old and new testament. To make a ludicrous statement as that the bible always contradicts, therefore Christianity is a lie, is like saying atheism is false, because there are oh so many more contradictions in science, evolution, etc. Now personally,  I believe that many things in evolution are true, as they go with the bible. But this is getting of the topic in which we will continue to discuss. No, there are no contradictions, just clarifications and breakings of old law. Don’t try Leviticus- these are Kosher laws, which do not apply anymore.

Contradictions my Gludius Maximus.
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 3:54 PM on November 12, 2002 | IP
dsadevil

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How nice of Jesus to attempt to stop the suffering of the jews. All of the jews who were burned at stake during the inquistion salute him im sure.


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 5:22 PM on November 12, 2002 | IP
dsadevil

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How nice of Jesus to attempt to stop the suffering of the jews. All of the jews who were burned at stake during the inquistion salute him im sure.


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 5:24 PM on November 12, 2002 | IP
    
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