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Cool-Hand-Dave

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i will just comment that Jesus did not start the inquisition.  take it from there.


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Cool Hand Dave
 


Posts: 134 | Posted: 12:27 AM on November 13, 2002 | IP
dsadevil

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I never claimed he did. As I've said before, Jesus was a great man, without a doubt. But the entity he created has been...unsuccessful (read: in active opposition of its own "goal") if it's goal was to prevent persecution of jews.


-------
"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 6:09 PM on November 13, 2002 | IP
Gs_Deus

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"How nice of Jesus to attempt to stop the suffering of the jews. All of the jews who were burned at stake during the inquistion salute him im sure."

Intersting that you use such an anology to bash christianity. Christianity was never going to be perfect, as Jesus said- "... there will be wolves in the church...".  Now, there are many rumors about the Inquisition that are not true.

Exhibit A)
1) The Spanish inquisition killed 3000- not 3 million or 30 million as people have stated.
2) The Albagensian inquisition killed more- but we had a reason.
Exhibit B)
1) The Spanish had the Inquisition to stop people from saying that they're Catholic to get into politics. At this time, politics was religion. In England, the Protestants had to be Protestant to be in politics- in the Ottoman Empire- the same. In the Kingdom of Fez, same. Kingdom of Hafsid, same. France, German States, Sweeden, Denmark-Norway, all of these had to be part of the state's religion. It was just something they did back then. It was like the President being a Nazi German to them.
2) The Albagensians were killing Catholics. They beleived that ALL SINNERS HAD TO DIE, or the world would crash. So they killed Catholics (simply for not believing them), Jews (same), themselves (for whoever sinners there were), etc. The Albagensians were jerks! They deserved to die- they were basically a bunch of Ossama Bin Ladins.

Exhibit C)
1) The Spanish Inquisition I do not support. It was very corrupt and did many wrongs. It was not supported by the Church but by the King and Queen of Spain, King Ferdinand of Aragon and Isabelle of Castille. Again, this was not done by the church, but by the Spanish. It began by the church- The church's Inquisition, which was more successful and nobody was killed, but just put into prison. Don't think the prisons were horrible little cells with no food. The Catholics lavished the Prisons and fed the Protestants well, but instead it was something to keep the protestants out of society. In fact, after the Inquisition the Protestants wanted to stay in their prisons, and they got daily visits by priests, Monks and nuns, giving them hope, as one priosoner said.- But the Spanish Inquisition was cruel and unjust. Although the prisons were still nice, many people were killed.
2) The Albagensian Inquistion killed many. And good riddance! These albagensians were crazy. We successfully ended their evil religion- thanks to St. Dominic and St. Francis!


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TorchX.com- conservative youth site.
 


Posts: 49 | Posted: 6:59 PM on November 13, 2002 | IP
dsadevil

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Hahaha! hahahahaha. If that wasn't so scary that you believed that, it would be hilarious in its incredible bias and inaccuracy.

How are you wrong? Let me count the ways:
1) The inquistion wasn't supported by the church, just the spanish.
Rebuttal: In 1231, Pope Gregory IX published a decree which called for life imprisonment with salutary penance for the heretic who had confessed and repented and capital punishment for those who persisted. (Source: Albert Van Helon, Rice University es.rice.edu/ES/humsoc/Galileo/Things/inquisition.html)
2) Albangesians are worse
Rebuttal: Who are the Albangesians? And where did I excuse whatever they did? That's wholly irrelevant
3) Only a few were killed!
Rebuttal: Even Jean Antoine Llorente, secretary to the Spanish Inquisition from 1790-92, was to admit: "The horrid conduct of this Holy Office weakened the power and diminished the population of Spain by arresting the progress of arts, sciences, industry, and commerce, and by compelling multitudes of families to abandon the kingdom; by instigating the expulsion of the Jews and the Moors, and by immolating on its flaming shambles more than 300,000 victims." (Source: Jean Antoine Llorentine, History of the Inquistion; as cited in R.W. Thompson, The Papacy and the Civil Power (New York, 1876); as cited in Dave Hunt, A Woman Rides the Beast )
4) It wasn't that bad! Everyone was treated nicely!
Historian Will Durant stated, "Compared with the persecution of heresy in Europe from 1227 to 1492, the persecution of Christians by Romans in the first 3 centuries after Christ was a mild and humane procedure. Making every allowance required by an historian and permitted to a Christian, we must rank the Inquisition, along with the wars and persecutions of our time, as among the darkest blots on the record of mankind, revealing a ferocity unknown in any beast."
(Source: Will Durant; The Story of Civilization, Vol. IV (Simon and Schuster, 1950); as cited in Dave Hunt, A Woman Rides the Beast)
5) It was about Religious purity, not brutally massacring innocents!
Umm...that's good why? You actually hit it right on the head when you compared to having a Nazi German as a leader. And the US never had a religious qualification for office. Get your facts straight.

Basically, this is self-rightous holocaust denial. You killed people. Christians can do wrong. Get ahold of yourself. From the crusades to the inquistion to the holocaust its been christian action (or lack thereof in the final case) that has caused the deaths of millions of people. Christians need to stop looking at themselves as the best thing to happen to the world since sliced bread and take a hard look at there own history and atrocities.


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 10:25 PM on November 13, 2002 | IP
fallingupwards84

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Jesus would have denounced the inquisition and the witch trials had he been alive during that time period. The people who committed these crimes claimed to be Christian but really were not because they had gone against Christ's teachings. And another thing, Jesus Christ was Jewish by race (from his mother) but he founded Christianity. You can be Jewish by race but also be Christian, Muslim, or any other religion at the same time.


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 8:44 PM on November 19, 2002 | IP
fallingupwards84

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Jesus would have denounced the inquisition and the witch trials had he been alive during that time period. The people who committed these crimes claimed to be Christian but really were not because they had gone against Christ's teachings. And another thing, Jesus Christ was Jewish by race (from his mother) but he founded Christianity. You can be Jewish by race but also be Christian, Muslim, or any other religion at the same time.


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 8:45 PM on November 19, 2002 | IP
dsadevil

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Why does everyone think I'm attacking jesus? Christianity, applied correctly and without hate is good. Unfortunately, it has proven ever too easy to twist towards hateful ends.


-------
"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 9:41 PM on November 19, 2002 | IP
AlexanderTheGreat

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exactly. jesus was the first....and probably the last, Christian. he was a stud. totally radical hombre. a real dude. he would have condemned the inquistion, and I think he would also condemn the Catholic Church today, and people like Falwell, and hopefully the gaybashers. hey, maybe jesus was gay. i always suspected Mary Magdelene was a cover.


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Alex
 


Posts: 292 | Posted: 11:49 PM on November 19, 2002 | IP
Cool-Hand-Dave

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i totally agree with you alexander.  jesus was a stud, modern-day Christians aren't so grand.  i do believe that Jesus would've condemned the inquisition and probably would not agree with the way that most if not all modern churches are run.  being a Christian is, inevitably and many points in life, being hypocritical.  Christian="Christ-like".  sorry folks, but by that definition or any other, us Christians just can't make the cut.  that doesn't mean that some don't try.  no one is perfect in whatever belief system they choose to accept, that includes Christianity even though some would ignorantly claim otherwise.  you have to look at the determination and devotion of the individual.  religion is for the individual and should be viewed in that sense more often.  


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Cool Hand Dave
 


Posts: 134 | Posted: 02:47 AM on November 20, 2002 | IP
AlexanderTheGreat

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or we could end religion altogether!!!! before anyone jumps on me for that, I am not saying we should force people to stop being religious. i am just hoping atheists breed them out. oh my gosh, I just destroyed all my gay rights arguments!!! that's the best argument against homosexuality!! Every atheist and agnostic has a moral and social duty to procreate and breed out the theists!! We must have as many babies as possible. I am shirking my responsibilities. I'll get to it as soon as I figure out a way to be attracted to breasts.


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Alex
 


Posts: 292 | Posted: 10:07 AM on November 20, 2002 | IP
kc2gwx

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"being a Christian is, inevitably and many points in life, being hypocritical.  Christian="Christ-like".  sorry folks, but by that definition or any other, us Christians just can't make the cut."

No one said we could. Nobody can be like Jesus, he was perfect. But that is the reason he died for us. He paid the penalty of sin (death) for us, so we don't have to. That is the whole point of Christianity.  


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Sam, KC2GWX
 


Posts: 101 | Posted: 10:34 AM on November 20, 2002 | IP
AlexanderTheGreat

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whoah.
I may not be a Christian, but I think you missed the point of being a Christian by miles.
"He [Jesus] paid the penalty of sin (death) for us, so we don't have to. That is the whole point of Christianity." Whah? I was under the impression he died to wipe away past sin, not sin forever more. He died as an example. Christians since him are not washed clean. They are sinners, and need to improve themselves. They don't have a get out of jail free card. They don't have a license to do whatever they want. They are trying to get back to a state of grace. Personally, I think there is a bounty of sin in the world. We are past due for another Christ. A new self-sacrifice. Don't look at me...I'm not even allowed to serve in the military...



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Alex
 


Posts: 292 | Posted: 10:51 AM on November 20, 2002 | IP
fallingupwards84

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Jesus died to forgive all sin, both past and future. all sins have already been forgiven, even sins that have yet to be committed. that does not give us the excuse to sin however. we are all sinners, but we have been forgiven because of Christ.


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 2:21 PM on November 20, 2002 | IP
kc2gwx

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"They don't have a get out of jail free card. They don't have a license to do whatever they want. "

This is not what I said. I said that he died for us, and he paid the penalty for our sins. But it is still our choice to accept him or not. If we accept him, we should try our hardest to sin as little as possible. But we are human, and we will sin. Do you see what I am saying?


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Sam, KC2GWX
 


Posts: 101 | Posted: 2:44 PM on November 20, 2002 | IP
fallingupwards84

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that was worded perfectly


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 4:10 PM on November 20, 2002 | IP
dsadevil

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If by accepting jesus all my sins are forgiven, what's my incentive for not doing them? There's no point, there's no reward, there's no nothing. Is it any wonder that christians across the ages haven't had any problem killing folks? There isn't any punishment.

I believe it was grocho marx who once said "Jesus died for our sins. Should we make his a sacrifice in vain by not committing them?"

And it was a wise rabbi who commented on judiasms belief on sin and heaven "It is our belief that rightous of all nations deserve to go to heaven. There are many mountains, and all of them reach for the stars." It is actions, not ideology, that ultimately dictate our fate.


-------
"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 6:32 PM on November 20, 2002 | IP
fallingupwards84

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if you TRULY believe in God and Jesus Christ, then you want to glorify Him. you cannot glorify Him if you sin 24 hours a day without giving it any thought at all. btw, no matter what answer i give to ur question, i'm gonna get bashed. why? cuz if i say that you have to have good works to get in heaven, then y'all will say that God is judgemental and unforgiving. but if i say that our sins are already forgiven, then ur gonna say that this is the reason that Christians have sinned so much in the past. why cant u be satisfied with any of the answers.


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 7:24 PM on November 20, 2002 | IP
fallingupwards84

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btw, in the last century, the people who have been the most deadly and killed the most people were opposed to Christianity. Adolph Hitler was an atheist who wanted to exterminate the Jews because of his evolutionary beliefs that they were "weak". Joseph Stalin was also an atheist who made it illegal to worship God and murdered millions of people. And finally, Osama bin Laden was Muslim. I dont see any Christians among that group.


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 7:26 PM on November 20, 2002 | IP
Gs_Deus

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GRRR!!!! MAN! ! Okay, Mods, delete all my last posts as "Guest"... thanks!


1) The inquistion wasn't supported by the church, just the spanish.
Rebuttal: In 1231, Pope Gregory IX published a decree which called for life imprisonment with salutary penance for the heretic who had confessed and repented and capital punishment for those who persisted. (Source: Albert Van Helon, Rice University es.rice.edu/ES/humsoc/Galileo/Things/inquisition.html)


You imbecile! The Spanish Inquisition wasn’t until the late 1400’s. As I said, the Albagensian Inquisition WAS  SUPPORTED by the Church. And good for them

2) Albangesians are worse

Rebuttal: Who are the Albangesians? And where did I excuse whatever they did? That's wholly irrelevant


Oh my God- if you don’t even know what an Albagensian is, you obviously know nothing of the Inquistion. The Albagensians were the ones we were killing, smarty.

3) Only a few were killed!

Rebuttal: Even Jean Antoine Llorente, secretary to the Spanish Inquisition from 1790-92, was to admit: "The horrid conduct of this Holy Office weakened the power and diminished the population of Spain by arresting the progress of arts, sciences, industry, and commerce, and by compelling multitudes of families to abandon the kingdom; by instigating the expulsion of the Jews and the Moors, and by immolating on its flaming shambles more than 300,000 victims." (Source: Jean Antoine Llorentine, History of the Inquistion; as cited in R.W. Thompson, The Papacy and the Civil Power (New York, 1876); as cited in Dave Hunt, A Woman Rides the Beast )


As I’ve said, there are many biased reports. Most Historians agree that it was about 3000 in the Spanish Inquisition- no more. William Durant, an X-Catholic and anti-Catholic, stated that 3000 were killed in the Inquisition. So don’t go on BSing me.

4) It wasn't that bad! Everyone was treated nicely!
Historian Will Durant stated, "Compared with the persecution of heresy in Europe from 1227 to 1492, the persecution of Christians by Romans in the first 3 centuries after Christ was a mild and humane procedure. Making every allowance required by an historian and permitted to a Christian, we must rank the Inquisition, along with the wars and persecutions of our time, as among the darkest blots on the record of mankind, revealing a ferocity unknown in any beast."
(Source: Will Durant; The Story of Civilization, Vol. IV (Simon and Schuster, 1950); as cited in Dave Hunt, A Woman Rides the Beast)


As I’ve said, Will Durant is very anti-Catholic. How do you expect me to trust him? I have all his books; I love his literature, but I do not like his anti-Catholicism bigotry. He was going to be a Catholic Priest, but then joined the most liberal university in New York City. This was Durant’s 6th book, The Reformation,  and at this point he is NOT Catholic (actually, I doubt he was catholic when he wrote any of his books). This said, you cannot trust Durant on these sources. But again, I said that the Prisons were very nice.

5) It was about Religious purity, not brutally massacring innocents!
Umm...that's good why? You actually hit it right on the head when you compared to having a Nazi German as a leader. And the US never had a religious qualification for office. Get your facts straight.


When did I say number five, Einstein? I never did. But yes, it was meant to kill off the Albagensian race- like to kill off the Nazis. Once again, you must understand that at this time, people did stupid things.

Basically, this is self-rightous holocaust denial. You killed people. Christians can do wrong. Get ahold of yourself. From the crusades to the inquistion to the holocaust its been christian action (or lack thereof in the final case) that has caused the deaths of millions of people. Christians need to stop looking at themselves as the best thing to happen to the world since sliced bread and take a hard look at there own history and atrocities.


Ha! This is funny. Of course I know the Spanish Inquisition was wrong, I even said that. But I do not believe that the Albagensian Inquisition was wrong- it was killing evil people- good. Second, you mention the Holocaust- why the fudge are you saying that Christians lead the holocaust? Who was Christian? Nobody! The Crusades were wars- people die in wars. Attila the Hun killed thousands. Genghis Khan killed Millions. Timor the Lame killed thousands.  Suleiman the Magnificent killed thousands. You cannot blame all of the world’s troubles on Christianity. I know the Church is not perfect- Jesus said there would be wolves in the church.

Now for the Holocaust- what evidence do you have that Hitler was Christian? Don’t give me any Bull Shoot Speeches that he did- Hitler lied. Germany at that time was about 90% strong Christian- do you think an arianist and atheist would win support from Christians? Of course not. So give me words that he said in Private. Be prepared- I have quotes that he said in Private about destroying Christianity!

exactly. jesus was the first....and probably the last, Christian. he was a stud. totally radical hombre. a real dude. he would have condemned the inquistion, and I think he would also condemn the Catholic Church today, and people like Falwell, and hopefully the gaybashers. hey, maybe jesus was gay. i always suspected Mary Magdelene was a cover.


Jesus is God- he isn’t Gay or Straight. The Church never bashes gays- we bash their actions. Those Christians who bash gays are not true Christians, or very confused Christians. Pope John Paul II said to pray for homosexuals that they will stop their sinful acts- what is so wrong about that? I pray every day that gays will be good and holy people- not that they aren't, but if they have sex all the time, that can lead to extreme mortal sin. What are you talking about Mary Magdalene? Yes, Jesus would have condemned the Spanish Inquistion, but not the Albagensian one. God himself even had a form of an Inquisition when he killed thousands of people after the ten Commandments were created- because the people were killing the Jews and worshipping a false idol.

or we could end religion altogether!!!!


Because some Christians make mistakes, religion is wrong. Nice plan, Brilliance.

We must have as many babies as possible.

You wont, you’re killing them off. In fact, Christians are killing them off too.

They are sinners, and need to improve themselves.


Yes! Why do you think we say in almost every single prayer “Pray for us sinners” or “Have Mercy on us sinners”? We acknowledge that we are sinners!

If by accepting jesus all my sins are forgiven, what's my incentive for not doing them? There's no point, there's no reward, there's no nothing. Is it any wonder that christians across the ages haven't had any problem killing folks? There isn't any punishment.


I agree- you cannot say accept Jesus and you’re forgiven from sins- God already forgives are sins when we commit them, but they are not forgotten. This is why Catholics have COnfession, so that God can forget our sins every happened. Jesus destroys our sins when we go to confession (unless we commit them again afterwards).





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TorchX.com- conservative youth site.
 


Posts: 49 | Posted: 7:59 PM on November 20, 2002 | IP
dsadevil

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Why should I believe my biased sources less than yours? who are your "most historians?" All I know is that everything I've read points against you.

The religious purity argument i said you made was when u said that non-christians couldn't hold office in these nations "that's just the way it was." You said that the jews and other non-christians were trying to muscle into politics, and the inquistion was to combat that. Hence "religious purity"

I don't deny that all the people you cite did horrible things. And I dont claim that hitler was christian because he wasnt. But the majority of Germans were, and they elected him and they could have resisted him and they could have spoken out against or revolted against him before he gained power or after the awful things he did started to manifest themselves, but they didnt. They remained, at best neutral. And remember that "The hottest places in hell are reserved for those, who, in times of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality."
My problem with christianity in no way implies that they are the cause of all the worlds problems, they arent. But they should own up that they have some responsibilty.
And finally, for the record, I do believe that enterance to heaven should be based solely on deeds. I dont think that is harsh, I think that is fair and just. Nobody can be perfect, but we can try to make the overall balance tilt towards good. And that is what we should all strive for.


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 8:57 PM on November 20, 2002 | IP
fallingupwards84

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well thats nice that you think that the entrance to heaven SHOULD be based on works, but the fact of the matter is that it is not.


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 9:23 PM on November 20, 2002 | IP
dsadevil

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There is no FACT on the matter of all. There is a reason religion is known as a "faith." It cant be fact, it must be taken on "faith." You have your opinion and I have mine, and a debate on which is correct would be fruitless, pointless and impossible. But a debate on the justness of each system? that is certainly possible, and i think I am winning (in my non-partisan analysis )


-------
"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 9:36 PM on November 20, 2002 | IP
fallingupwards84

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i didnt mean it like that, i used the wrong word. i apologize. of course religious topics are opinions. btw, you say that religion is "faith". but in an earlier post you said that salvation should not be based on faith at all, but it should be based on works. ur starting to sound a little contradictory (from my non-partisan point-of-view)


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 01:12 AM on November 21, 2002 | IP
AlexanderTheGreat

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I don't think he contradicted. I think he meant religious belief is based on faith, but that people should not be judged by God based on their faith but rather on whether they are good people overall (meaning, not that they worship him necessarily, but regardless of their faith treat everyone nicely, protect the weak, struggle against the unjust, etc.). that is a God I could like. sorry for speaking for you, DSA, i was just bored and no one ever seems to answer MY questions straight on. of course say something if I put wrong words in your mouth. And it seems to me, past all the junk in religious rules and tenets and doctrines, "God" should by common sense be all-good and all-just, and should promote goodness and justice as a priority over belief in Him. In fact, in this regard I disagree with DSA I think, because I think after death people should not be punished, even Bin Laden. we have punishment in human society (in my opinion) to correct views and encourage good behavior, but punishment after death would not be to make things better but only to hurt needlessly. I think an all-good God would forgive everyone in the end, no matter what. Every one has some good in them, even Bin Laden, Hitler, and Darth Vader. If there is a heaven, then all people should be welcomed in, especially the bad guys, so they can see what good really is.
ya know, i was thinking about the 9/11 hijackers the other day. I think i can have a little bit of understanding about the hate and anger some one could have for living in a refugee camp or something, and blaming the West, and demonizing it, but I don't understand how they could then come to America, live next to normal, nice people with babies, and not have at least some of that hate fade away. I cannot understand hate like that, but I know it's out there. Still, when I think about it, I don't want them to be punished if there is a God. The afterlife should be that time when people (even the worst) get the second chance life never gave them here. Wow, I am in a sappy mood. I love everyone!!! See, you don't have to be a Christian to be Christian.


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Alex
 


Posts: 292 | Posted: 04:16 AM on November 21, 2002 | IP
Prometheus

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"The church never bashes gays we bash their actions."

That is the old "love the sinner; hate the sin" routine.  Which is a complete cop out.  Though often quoted like it is, that statement is not in the bible.  It is true God tells us to love one another as he loved us.  It's also true God says he hates sin.  But some people take these two diverse statements and make them into a defense for mistreating gays.  When their hateful ways towards gays are pointed out they try to justify it with the "love, hate" response.

These people forget that we're not told to "hate the sin."  We're told to forgive the sin.  In Matthew 18:25-35 Jesus tells of a slave who was forgiven his debts (just as christians are forgiven their sins).  This slave, however, refused to forgive the debt of a fellow slave (just as Jesus asks us to forgive our fellow sinners).  Jesus called that slave "evil."  This tells me that all who call themselves christian must forgive the sins of any other sinner -- ie. gays in their eyes.  If they don't, they are themselves doing just as the slave who Jesus called "evil" acted.

Anytime you hear the "love the sinner; hate the sin" comment you know that person is not following the teaching of Jesus


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"There are seven sins in the world: Wealth without work, Pleasure without conscience, Knowledge without character, Commerce without morality, Science without humanity, Worship without sacrifice, and politics without principle." --Mahatma Gandhi
 


Posts: 22 | Posted: 08:59 AM on November 21, 2002 | IP
kc2gwx

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"Anytime you hear the "love the sinner; hate the sin" comment you know that person is not following the teaching of Jesus"

I disagree. What would you have that phrase say? 'Love the sinner, love the sin'. No, that would not be true. You can forgive someone of their sin, and still hate that sin. There is no reason that you can not forgive someone, and hate what they did. If I were to forgive a rapist, does that mean I must accept rape as ok? NO!



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Sam, KC2GWX
 


Posts: 101 | Posted: 10:17 AM on November 21, 2002 | IP
fallingupwards84

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good point, sam


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 12:59 PM on November 21, 2002 | IP
Cool-Hand-Dave

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since this debate is presently leaning toward religious views my throw a few of mine in.  prometheus, in order for you to forgive someone, they must have done something you disagree with.  if you didn't have a problem with their actions, there would be no need for forgiveness.  i'm not supporting the old time "love the sinner, hate the sin" saying that you hear in every southern baptist church ever built becuase i don't completely agree with it.  theoretically, christians should hate all sins, but truthfully, we don't.  we let some slide by and make justifications for others.  still yet, others we don't even recognize because they hit too close to home.  it's not a good thing at all.  maybe we should just modify the saying or something.  i don't know



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Cool Hand Dave
 


Posts: 134 | Posted: 1:41 PM on November 21, 2002 | IP
fallingupwards84

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love the sinner, forgive the sin


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 3:40 PM on November 21, 2002 | IP
Prometheus

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"Love the sinner, forgive the sin."

That is exactly what we should say!fallingupwards hit it right on the head.  That is what I was trying to say in my post but didn't get the phraseology right.  I diagree that we should hate all sins, Jesus said to forgive the sin not hate it.

"There is no reason that you can not forgive someone, and hate what they did."

What about the "Judge not lest ye be judged" concept.  As a christian it seems we should not hate anything. I know as a human that it is awfully hard not to hate sometimes, but shouldn't you strive not to hate if you are a christian?


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"There are seven sins in the world: Wealth without work, Pleasure without conscience, Knowledge without character, Commerce without morality, Science without humanity, Worship without sacrifice, and politics without principle." --Mahatma Gandhi
 


Posts: 22 | Posted: 5:33 PM on November 21, 2002 | IP
kc2gwx

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Ok Prometheus, but what about my rape example? I agree with you, we should forgive this person of their sin. But to you expect me to love rape, or even to not hate it?

"As a christian it seems we should not hate anything."

Why? What scripture supports this? Jesus went into the temple and overturned  all the tables at which vendors were selling things. Did he hate the actions of the vendors? Yes, he did. If he did not, why did he knock over the tables in the temple?


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Sam, KC2GWX
 


Posts: 101 | Posted: 5:45 PM on November 21, 2002 | IP
fallingupwards84

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i know what prometheus is trying to say. he's not saying that we should approve of sin, in fact we should disapprove of it. but hate is a very very strong word and no christian should hate.


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 10:13 PM on November 21, 2002 | IP
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And finally, for the record, I do believe that enterance to heaven should be based solely on deeds. I dont think that is harsh, I think that is fair and just. Nobody can be perfect, but we can try to make the overall balance tilt towards good. And that is what we should all strive for.


Catholics beleive it's based on Works (deeds included) and also faith.
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 01:08 AM on November 23, 2002 | IP
fallingupwards84

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that is exactly why i am not Catholic


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 03:05 AM on November 23, 2002 | IP
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Any just diety would judge soley on actions and not on faith.
 


Posts: 193 | Posted: 12:47 PM on November 23, 2002 | IP
fallingupwards84

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why would you say that?


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 3:05 PM on November 23, 2002 | IP
fallingupwards84

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if you think that God should send us to heaven based on works and not faith, then you are also saying that humanity is good enough. Humanity is corrupted. take a look around you, we have totally destroyed everything, including nature. humanity doesnt deserve crap. thankfully, i believe in a God that loves us and cares enough about us that He will not judge us by our shortcomings.


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 3:07 PM on November 23, 2002 | IP
beavischrist

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Humanity as a whole maybe worth crap but there are good people. Frankly, the belief that we are all pieces of shit is very offensive to me. The inventor blaming the invention.

Belief is such a thing that is not always alterable. Neither of us could ever believe in the easter bunny even if we wanted to. To punish me for what I cannot change is cruel and unjust, to judge me for what actions I take on this earth is not.

(Edited by beavischrist 11/23/2002 at 5:25 PM).
 


Posts: 193 | Posted: 3:47 PM on November 23, 2002 | IP
fallingupwards84

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its not the "inventor's" fault because if you are a Christian then you believe that God made us perfect. it is the "invention's" fault because we turned away from God. it all depends on whether you believe that humanity is naturally good or naturally evil


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 4:43 PM on November 23, 2002 | IP
fallingupwards84

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what do y'all think? is humanity naturally good or naturally evil?


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 4:44 PM on November 23, 2002 | IP
beavischrist

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If the inventor knew exactly what his invention would do, it is his fault. God said- let me create people who wont listen to me then I'll punish them for not listening.

Wonderful logic.
 


Posts: 193 | Posted: 4:54 PM on November 23, 2002 | IP
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Fallingupwards seems to think that a heaven-admittance system based on justice is synonomous with one based on perfection. Its not. You can be good without being perfect. Fallingupwards just doesn't want to make the effort, so she takes the easy way out. I think that the purpose of religion is to strive to be good, not to exist for its own sake.


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 5:17 PM on November 23, 2002 | IP
fallingupwards84

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first of all, i am a guy. second of all, i have done anything BUT take the easy way out. i have made alot of effort to do what i think is right (not drinking or smoking even though i'm in college is just one example). just because i believe that we go to heaven based on faith instead of works does not mean that i go around and sin like crazy. on the contrary, i make alot of effort not to sin. here's some advise for you dsa, dont judge someone until you actually know about them. thanks


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 7:01 PM on November 23, 2002 | IP
dsadevil

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first, my apologies for saying "She." I think it is because you are filling sakata's niche. Second, I suppose that I should have phrased my statement more broadly, rather than referring to you personally. The point I was trying to make is that in my opinion religion SHOULD have an incentive to do good, one that christianity doesn't have. But of course, that doesn't mean that you yourself don't do good. So my apologies on that too.


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 12:34 AM on November 24, 2002 | IP
fallingupwards84

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thanks. i understand your position. btw, whatever happened to Sakata?


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 1:27 PM on November 24, 2002 | IP
beavischrist

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She drank poison, but to her surprise, Jesus didn't save her (Mark 16:18).
 


Posts: 193 | Posted: 1:43 PM on November 24, 2002 | IP
dsadevil

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When I invited her to the tournament, she said that she had too much schoolwork, which is why she stopped posting. Speaking of the tournament, I still havent heard from you Fallingupwards. Are you game?


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 3:21 PM on November 24, 2002 | IP
fallingupwards84

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i didnt know about the tournament. i guess i will join


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 3:59 PM on November 24, 2002 | IP
thistownwilleatu

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You know how I can tell when someone isn't secure in what they believe Beavis?  When they feel the need to base their lives and personal beliefs on attacking another.  Why do you feel the need to set up websites like that and all the other 8th grade things you do other than to express your own insecurity.  Or wait let me guess, you're on a mission to expose to the world the hypocrisy of Christian by putting the words of a few idiots who claim to be Christians on your little website.  I have no problem with atheism, but no one here has attacked you for being so, so you do the same.


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"The greatest evil is not done in those sordid dens of evil that Dickens loved to paint ... but is conceived and ordered (moved, seconded, carried and minuted) in clear, carpeted, warmed, well-lighted offices, by quiet men with white collars and cut fingernails and smooth-shaven cheeks who do not need to raise their voices." - Thomas Merton

"I thank my God for every remembrance of you." - Paul
 


Posts: 341 | Posted: 4:12 PM on November 24, 2002 | IP
beavischrist

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I don't buy your logic. It's quite possible I am firm in my beliefs but enjoy making fun of religion. It really is not very hard to do and if you found yourself in a world where everyone worshipped the Easter Bunny, you'd probably crack some jokes, too. Henry Morris attacks what he sees as untrue, does he not? Must mean he doesn't really believe in Jesus, by your logic.
I am on no mission other than entertaining myself, which I have done with my website.
I hardly think the 12 threads you've read from me and one of my websites makes you qualified to judge what my life is based on.
 


Posts: 193 | Posted: 5:47 PM on November 24, 2002 | IP
    
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