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Should public schools have organized classroom prayer ? 

http://www.youdebate.com/DEBATES/SCHOOL_PRAYER.HTM
 


Posts: 31 | Posted: 7:44 PM on April 30, 2002 | IP
maria

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I don't think it should be banded from schools but it isn't necessary.  If people are affended by having school prayer they should have a seperate home room.


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DSR
 


Posts: 12 | Posted: 4:57 PM on June 13, 2002 | IP
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having school prayer isn't forcing religion on anyone.  If you don't want to pray then don't pray.   Parents should teach their kids that they don't always have to follow the crowd.  Maybe if schools, instead of banding religion, should teach about all the religions so people would have a better understandig of the people around them.


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DSR
 


Posts: 12 | Posted: 5:07 PM on June 13, 2002 | IP
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The parents are, more often than not, told to obey the teachers, administrators, etc. If the teacher says it's prayer time, the message is "Start Praying."

It's not possible to teach about EVERY religion, and even if it were, it would not be possible to do so in an objective manner.

Besides, religous practices and education are the prevue of the parents, and their church, not of the school.


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Posts: 30 | Posted: 02:15 AM on August 19, 2002 | IP
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No.  It is against some peoples religion.I used to go to a school with a teacher that made us o prayer in the morning.  I never prayed, becaquse i was wican at age 7, so i just didnt pray at all.  One day she found out, and demanded i pray.  I lterally said, "F*** you, and F*** that.  I'm not a damn christian."  I was standing up for my beliefs.  Why should we be told to pray to a god who we dont believe in?


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I am Exxoss, come to save you all from your impending doom!!!!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

-Exxoss
 


Posts: 438 | Posted: 4:22 PM on September 25, 2002 | IP
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I agree w/ exxoss. A lot of people, escpecially Christians, are already too pigheaded about their religions. Not everyone, but a lot of Christians I know think that their religion is the only religion and everyone else is damned to Hell. Prayers just extend that opinion, hurt everyone else, and jumble up everything. If you want to have prayers in private schools, fine. But prayers in public school shouldn't even be a question because of the Constitution's Separation of Church and State.
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 10:29 AM on September 26, 2002 | IP
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:-) yey an agreer!  prayer in private schools, unless they are christian private schools, shouldnt even be allowed.  What of the non-christian teachers?


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I am Exxoss, come to save you all from your impending doom!!!!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

-Exxoss
 


Posts: 438 | Posted: 10:33 AM on September 26, 2002 | IP
Chai

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You're right, only in schools that say they're Christian. Forgot that bit.
 


Posts: 30 | Posted: 10:20 AM on September 27, 2002 | IP
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It would be pretty sadistic, too, if students were forced by teachers to pray in school.  Maybe it would damn them!  Like a judiast, who does not believe that jesus is the son of god, would have to say, 'And thank you jesus, son of god.  Lord, blahb blah blah'
I think its fairly...REALLY stupid.


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I am Exxoss, come to save you all from your impending doom!!!!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

-Exxoss
 


Posts: 438 | Posted: 10:25 AM on September 27, 2002 | IP
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But does anyone pay attention to the fact that back when there was prayer in schools there wasnt school shootings? what about the fact that suicide and teen-pregnacy where hardly ever heard of?  Look at all the horrible statistics!! Its no wonder prayer was banned look at all the harm at did!


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No time for mediocrity.

People call me a Bible-Thumping reactionist ...and I'm proud to bear the name.
 


Posts: 293 | Posted: 10:57 PM on October 8, 2002 | IP
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want me to turn that logic around? When was school prayer outlawed? 1962, engel v. vitale. When was the civil rights act passed? 1963. Voting Rights Act? 1964. Which states were most aggressive in pushing school prayer (and are most aggressive in trying to reinstate it today)? The southern ones. Which ones had Jim Crow? the southern ones. Good thing we had school prayer to teach such good morals, eh?
Also, what link could there be between the end of school prayer and school shootings? An American Psychological Association report released post-columbine stated that a primary cause of school violence is the feeling of ostracization from peers. School prayer, by seperating the minority from the majority, increases, not decreases, that risk.


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 12:13 AM on October 9, 2002 | IP
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Prayer in schools is against my religion...and I'm a christian.  Jesus himself said that when you pray do it alone, in a closet.  Prayer in schools is hypocritical, useless, and for show.  People should see your a Christian through your actions, not by being able to talk over an intercom.


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"The greatest evil is not done in those sordid dens of evil that Dickens loved to paint ... but is conceived and ordered (moved, seconded, carried and minuted) in clear, carpeted, warmed, well-lighted offices, by quiet men with white collars and cut fingernails and smooth-shaven cheeks who do not need to raise their voices." - Thomas Merton

"I thank my God for every remembrance of you." - Paul
 


Posts: 341 | Posted: 4:22 PM on October 11, 2002 | IP
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My cousin goes to a Christian school where they pray over the intercom every moring, its not like they are all resighting a prayer, it is just the principle or someone asking God to bless them and be with them and help them learn and stuff. I dont see anything wrong with that.


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No time for mediocrity.

People call me a Bible-Thumping reactionist ...and I'm proud to bear the name.
 


Posts: 293 | Posted: 5:32 PM on October 13, 2002 | IP
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Sakata, If America was a Muslim nation...with the same rights we have now...and you had to listen to a muslim prayer over the intercom would you feel the same way about state mandated prayer?
 


Posts: 5 | Posted: 9:08 PM on October 13, 2002 | IP
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I never said I was in disagreement with this law, my post was in context of a Christian school, in refrence to wether praying over the intercom is right or not.


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No time for mediocrity.

People call me a Bible-Thumping reactionist ...and I'm proud to bear the name.
 


Posts: 293 | Posted: 9:26 PM on October 13, 2002 | IP
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How is that relevant?  Of course they pray at a christian school.  If you'll notice the first word the people are...christians, so where is the conflict if everyone agrees?  It's only in public schools that there is any controversy.  How do you justify it there?



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"The greatest evil is not done in those sordid dens of evil that Dickens loved to paint ... but is conceived and ordered (moved, seconded, carried and minuted) in clear, carpeted, warmed, well-lighted offices, by quiet men with white collars and cut fingernails and smooth-shaven cheeks who do not need to raise their voices." - Thomas Merton

"I thank my God for every remembrance of you." - Paul
 


Posts: 341 | Posted: 10:22 PM on October 13, 2002 | IP
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if a person is a christian and wants to pray at school, let him do it the confines of his own heart.  that's the only place it matters anyway.  Christianity is not meant to be shoved down people's throats, and that is what some people feel is happening to them during a public prayer.  


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Cool Hand Dave
 


Posts: 134 | Posted: 10:24 PM on October 13, 2002 | IP
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thistown, I was responding to you saying that praying over the intercom was wrong because we should pray in private.


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No time for mediocrity.

People call me a Bible-Thumping reactionist ...and I'm proud to bear the name.
 


Posts: 293 | Posted: 10:32 PM on October 13, 2002 | IP
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Excatly.  If people want to pray, then privately do it.  The satanist in the back of the room doesnt like god.  FREE SPEECH IS BROKEN WITH SCHOOL PRAYER!!!


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I am Exxoss, come to save you all from your impending doom!!!!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

-Exxoss
 


Posts: 438 | Posted: 10:39 AM on October 17, 2002 | IP
Sakata

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no, free speach is inforced, it is the person on the annocements choice to pray or not, it is the wiccans choice to believe or not.


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No time for mediocrity.

People call me a Bible-Thumping reactionist ...and I'm proud to bear the name.
 


Posts: 293 | Posted: 01:28 AM on October 18, 2002 | IP
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free speech may be enforced, but the establishment clause sure isn't.


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 1:11 PM on October 18, 2002 | IP
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"The fact that prayer was practiced for nearly 200 years establishes it by precedent as a valid and beneficial practice in our schools"
False-- that fact shows nothing towards "beneficial".

In any case, please keep in mind the aforementioned ostracization and the harassment that can result. And harassment has resulted. One student was allegedly physically forced to bow her head during the "moment of silence." Others were threatened, assaulted, harassed-- parents even recieved death threats and the like.

For reasons such as these, there is not a single pro, by my mark, anyway. That is, I would be ok with voluntary prayer but the risk to students it NOT an acceptable one.
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 6:50 PM on October 23, 2002 | IP
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Public schools exist to educate, not to proselytize.  Children in public schools are a captive audience.  Making prayer an oficial part of the school day is coercive and invasive.  What 8 year old could view prayers recited as part of class routine as "voluntary"?  Religion is private, and schools are public, so it is appropriate that the two should not mix.

Our public schools are for all children, whether Christian, Jewish, Buddhist, atheist, agnostic, or whatever.  The schools are supported by all taxpayers, and therefore should be free of religious observances and coercion.  It is the duty of parents and churches to instill religious beliefs, free from government dictation.

School prayer proponents mistake government neutrality toward religion as hostility.  The record shows that religious beliefs have flourished in this country not in spite of but because of the constitutional separation of church and state.


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"There are seven sins in the world: Wealth without work, Pleasure without conscience, Knowledge without character, Commerce without morality, Science without humanity, Worship without sacrifice, and politics without principle." --Mahatma Gandhi
 


Posts: 22 | Posted: 03:52 AM on October 25, 2002 | IP
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I think that prayer in schools should be allowed just not made mandatory.  Religion is part of the American culture, we live "one nation under God" whether you believe that or not, that is the country you were born into, or moved into in some cases.  

Prayer does NOT HAVE to be recited, a child can sit during the pledge or other prayers.  

What about a racist children, should he not have to sit next to a minority student because he doesn't believe he should be there?  Should he not have to read "I Have a Dream" by MLK because he doesn't think blacks should of been seen as a sign of power?  

Let me know...
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 12:12 PM on October 31, 2002 | IP
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that 'one nation under god' and 'in god we trust' is against one of US's basic rules: seperation of church and state.  THat is why those things are bad.  A school prayer would lead to alot more school violence due to conflicts in beliefs.


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Holy and Demonic, cursed with vampiracy. The world shall soon be mine!
 


Posts: 10 | Posted: 8:35 PM on November 1, 2002 | IP
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"that 'one nation under god' and 'in god we trust' is against one of US's basic rules: seperation of church and state."

No. That would be seperation of religion and state, not seperation of church and state. Seperation of church and state means the government can not institute one national religion, like Spain's catholic church.

"A school prayer would lead to alot more school violence due to conflicts in beliefs."

This is also wrong. 1962 was the year prayer in public schools was dropped. Do you know how many school shootings happened before that? How many happened after?


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Sam, KC2GWX
 


Posts: 101 | Posted: 9:36 PM on November 1, 2002 | IP
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Sam, you cant give us a causal relationship between the jump in school shootings and the banning of school prayer. An APA (american psychological association) report suggests the contrary in fact, saying that prayer would ostracize students from their peers thus increasing school shootings.

Your constitutional analysis is also incorrect. The supreme court has held in numerous cases, notably Everson v. Board of Education, Engel v. Vitale (the school prayer case), Abington Township v. Schempf (bible readings case), Lemon v. Kurtzman, Wallace v. Jaffree, and Lee v. Weissman that what the 1st amendment bans is govt. ENDORSEMENT of a religion, something that school prayer clearly does as the court ruled in Engel. The "one national religion" argument is false, b/c it interprets the 1st amendment too narrowly. What the first amendment does is a) prevent the government from favoring one religious group over another (which would be endorsement, which be de facto establishment) and b) preventing the free exercise of religion. school prayer, which mandates religious exercise on possibly unwilling particpants, fails this as well.


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 11:01 PM on November 3, 2002 | IP
tsmith2771

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First of all the under god part was added to piss of the soviet union and second, prayer should not be allowed in public school because not all people are of the same religion, so it makes no sense to have it anywhere near school.


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"I have no interest in making blacks equal to whites, they are of a lesser quality and this I am sure of." -Abraham Lincoln
"You don't win a war by dying for your country, you win a war by making the other person die for theirs." -General George Patton
 


Posts: 372 | Posted: 11:05 PM on November 3, 2002 | IP
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Anywhere near school? so the Christain club cant pray together? last time I checked they were all the same religion.


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No time for mediocrity.

People call me a Bible-Thumping reactionist ...and I'm proud to bear the name.
 


Posts: 293 | Posted: 12:21 AM on November 5, 2002 | IP
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no no, it just shouldnt be school mandated/organized/endorsed


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 11:17 AM on November 5, 2002 | IP
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public schools were first instituted to teach children how to read the Bible.
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 6:18 PM on November 29, 2002 | IP
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The type of people who want to have prayer in school or any other public place are basically just wanting to be seen praying.  To most of these people the prayers mean nothing to them, it's the being seen that gives them a big thrill.  They want to pray in public places where other people can watch them because they think it makes them more religious, when in reality it just makes them look less religious.

Jesus said:

"And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men.  I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full.

But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen.  Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret will reward you.

And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words.

Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.

Matthew 6:5-8
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 10:18 AM on December 1, 2002 | IP
fallingupwards84

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as you guys very well know by now, i'm a Christian. at the same time, i am against school prayer because i think students should have a choice what to believe in and because of the verses listed in the last post.


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 1:33 PM on December 1, 2002 | IP
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contrary to what you may thing, school prayer is not forcing students heads down and making them become christain and pray.  A prayer by one person asking God to take care of us and stuff? what is wrong with that? I fully support this because I believe in the unimaginable power of prayer, I know God is the one way, and the one truth, and maybe if we start asking him for more stuff, we can bring this country back to a state of decency.

btw, I have a question fallingup, maybe you already answered this somewhere else, but why dont you like bush?


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No time for mediocrity.

People call me a Bible-Thumping reactionist ...and I'm proud to bear the name.
 


Posts: 293 | Posted: 01:20 AM on December 4, 2002 | IP
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because bush is a war-hawk and wants to deregulate every part of the economy. our economy has also plummetted ever since he took office


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 02:04 AM on December 4, 2002 | IP
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thistown is another christian who is against school prayer because it goes against the bible. read what he had to say in an earlier post:
Prayer in schools is against my religion...and I'm a christian.  Jesus himself said that when you pray do it alone, in a closet.  Prayer in schools is hypocritical, useless, and for show.  People should see your a Christian through your actions, not by being able to talk over an intercom.


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 02:06 AM on December 4, 2002 | IP
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I agree with fallingupwards.  even about the bush thing.

i think school and church shouldnt be combined, unless of course you go to a christian school.  


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I love my country, but fear my government.

your friendly ultra-conservative patriot.
 


Posts: 270 | Posted: 2:01 PM on December 4, 2002 | IP
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well yeah, of course. this only applies to public schools


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 6:12 PM on December 4, 2002 | IP
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sak, usually the debate topic "school prayer" means govt. sponsership of school prayer "let us prey...er pray."


-------
"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 9:39 PM on December 4, 2002 | IP
Sakata

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ok, if you believe we should only pray in closets, then the pastors that stand up and pray before a bible-study must me way outta line, and Jesus too, when he prayed out loud all the time.  This passage means dont go around trying to show off how religous you are, not that you can never pray out loud or in public.


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No time for mediocrity.

People call me a Bible-Thumping reactionist ...and I'm proud to bear the name.
 


Posts: 293 | Posted: 11:35 PM on December 4, 2002 | IP
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when Jesus prayed to God the Father before he was betrayed, he left his disciples and went out by himself


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 01:15 AM on December 5, 2002 | IP
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I agree that it wasn't meant to be taken exactly leterally, but it is a pretty powerful example.  What are you trying to accomplish by praying over the intercoms or whatever, if it is really important then you get together with your friends at lunch, at the lockers, etc.  There are no laws against that, Chrisitians are whining all the time about no prayer in schools, but in reality only a tiny facet of prayer has been taken away.  We can still pray in groups, by ourselves whenever we want, the freedom to pray hasn't been touched.  All that has been touched is the easy way out...not worrying about how we act and instead just saying some stupid words over the intercom to "prove" that youre a Christian.  What's the big deal, how is it wrong to refrain from forcing our beliefs on other people, and I know you say that it is not doing that, but even if it makes one person uncomfortable we have done great harm to the purpose of prayer to start with.  


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"The greatest evil is not done in those sordid dens of evil that Dickens loved to paint ... but is conceived and ordered (moved, seconded, carried and minuted) in clear, carpeted, warmed, well-lighted offices, by quiet men with white collars and cut fingernails and smooth-shaven cheeks who do not need to raise their voices." - Thomas Merton

"I thank my God for every remembrance of you." - Paul
 


Posts: 341 | Posted: 02:19 AM on December 5, 2002 | IP
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very much agreed.


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Cool Hand Dave
 


Posts: 134 | Posted: 9:45 PM on December 5, 2002 | IP
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I have heard the argument that a non denominational prayer would be acceptable. As an atheist, this would exclude me.

I am glad to see some of you agree with me on this issue.
 


Posts: 193 | Posted: 10:32 PM on December 5, 2002 | IP
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I am a christian, although I do not believe that praying in schools should be manditory or over the intercom.  By putting prayer in such a regular setting it takes away the effect it has from the heart.  I know many Christians pray every night before bed, but I might also make a point against that.  Many times after praying at exactly the same time, day after day, prayer can become routine and I don't think it has any purpose then.  I enjoy praying before bed because I know that my mind goes dormant then and I like to go to sleep with God on my mind and heart.  It's a close time between us, but on the other hand, if I don't pray then, it's not like I feel guilty for it, as many Christians do.  Mixing prayer up at different times when it's really on your heart to do so is wonderful and truly powerful things can come from it, but I don't think that mandate prayer in school is a positive thing because it's repetitive and sequenced.

On the other hand, I don't believe that praying over the intercom is a way to prove that you're more Christian or to be prideful, I think that in the schools it's done in that it's more of a repetitious thing, and something done regularly and no one wants to break the tradition.

there's my two cents


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One God; One Truth; One Way
 


Posts: 15 | Posted: 12:26 AM on December 6, 2002 | IP
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Yet another example of Sakata deciding which parts of the bible should be taken literally and which should not.  It appears that any verse that agrees with her personal political agenda should be taken literally; while any verse that does not agree with her political bias should not be taken literally.  You can't have it both ways Sakata, either the bible should be taken literally or it should not be taken literally.  Make up you mind.
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 05:20 AM on December 6, 2002 | IP
Maynard

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i agree with havah, prayer shouldnt be a required thing, it doesnt mean anything then.  i know people that pray to help decide what restaurant to go to, i think that is not what prayer is for.


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I love my country, but fear my government.

your friendly ultra-conservative patriot.
 


Posts: 270 | Posted: 1:37 PM on December 6, 2002 | IP
Bograt

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How about this: TIME for prayer at school. NOT " you will pray to the christian God" but "You have the next 15 minuets (or whatever) to pray to whaterver you believe" be it christian, muslim or what-whoever you so desire.


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Damn you Murphy!
 


Posts: 134 | Posted: 3:12 PM on December 6, 2002 | IP
Sakata

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I do take the bible literally Guest, especially when it says that Jesus came and died and fullfiled the old laws layed down in The Old Testiment, so that we may live in his grace, so dont mistake knowledge with bias.


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No time for mediocrity.

People call me a Bible-Thumping reactionist ...and I'm proud to bear the name.
 


Posts: 293 | Posted: 7:39 PM on December 6, 2002 | IP
beavischrist

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Why should I sit through a prayer, bograt? If you see that subjecting everyone to a christian prayer is wrong then how is subjecting atheists and agnostics to any prayer less wrong?
 


Posts: 193 | Posted: 12:41 AM on December 7, 2002 | IP
    
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