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Sakata

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If their is no God, and it is all just crap, than why do you care?


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No time for mediocrity.

People call me a Bible-Thumping reactionist ...and I'm proud to bear the name.
 


Posts: 293 | Posted: 03:24 AM on December 7, 2002 | IP
beavischrist

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For the same reason you, despite your deep faith in jesus, would care if the public schools recited Hindu prayer every day. For the same reason a person who doesn't do drugs feels uncomfortable at a party where everybody is smoking pot. For the same reason no one wants to be singled out in class by his teacher and made fun of. This feeling is much easier to explain by example than to put into words.
 


Posts: 193 | Posted: 04:32 AM on December 7, 2002 | IP
fallingupwards84

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sakata, you know that i'm a Christian just like yourself, but please tell me where in the Bible it says that public prayer is a necessary part of our relationship with God?


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 9:34 PM on December 8, 2002 | IP
Nova

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christainity should never be forced on people the. Christ was grace not governemntal power or physical strength. no one will be brought into God's light through force, but only through love and forgivness, not human judgment.  


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One God; One Truth; One Way
 


Posts: 96 | Posted: 04:28 AM on December 10, 2002 | IP
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ok then, but what about all of the holy wars in his name? is that really the reason he came down to earth?
-i am xenjael
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 8:10 PM on December 11, 2002 | IP
Nova

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Anything holy done in the devils name is still good and honoring God but anything evil done in God's name is evil still. The holy Wars (crusades) find in the bible where it says that something so awful is ok. This spurned from a controling manipulitive church(catholic) seeking to rule the world. Do you actually think that Jesus or God would condone the murder of anyone? I think not especially since they both quite clearly satated that it was a sin.


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One God; One Truth; One Way
 


Posts: 96 | Posted: 03:31 AM on December 12, 2002 | IP
fallingupwards84

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Jesus would never have approved of the Crusades if he were on earth at that time


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 03:48 AM on December 12, 2002 | IP
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yes, remember it was all a power struggle for the pope to get a mad bid for kingship.
-i am xenjael
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 07:04 AM on December 12, 2002 | IP
Nova

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k good i am glad you know history but that doesn't seem to the point.


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One God; One Truth; One Way
 


Posts: 96 | Posted: 03:07 AM on December 25, 2002 | IP
debategirl88

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The real issue is the constitution garentees the pursuit of life, liberty and happiness. It doesn't garuntee you that you won't be uncomfortable. It does gurantee the pursuit of one's faith. Now for gov. organization to forbid prayer denies them the right to pursue life, liberty and happiness, IF a vibrant faith is part of that pursuit.  


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A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned - this is the sum of good government.
-Thomas Jefferson
 


Posts: 157 | Posted: 12:16 PM on December 25, 2002 | IP
Nova

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Yes yes but the point is can the government be the ones to make you uncomfortable in your faith?


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One God; One Truth; One Way
 


Posts: 96 | Posted: 5:08 PM on December 25, 2002 | IP
fallingupwards84

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debategirl, since when did the government forbid students to pray at school? whenever i feel a need to pray at school, i just say it inside my heart...the government cant keep from doing that. i dont need to say it out loud, because i believe God can hear me when i say it to myself. the government did not forbid students to pray, the government forbid the forcing of students to listen to or say a prayer outloud


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 01:01 AM on December 26, 2002 | IP
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  The Kindom of God is like the Christmas present that you always wanted. I turned to drugs, to beautiful women, and to all sorts of different passions to find what I was looking for. If I got the bag of marijuana I thought I wanted so bad, then I wanted something else almost immediatly. I was looking for fulfillment, yet I remained so empty every time I got what I thought I wanted. Then, as I sat at my dining room table, I had an amazing experience.  No one was preaching at me, and I had not been attending church, yet God called me out. As I sat there, my hope, was suddenly divided from my spirit. As long as we are alive we still have hope, and God showed me what it would be like if I kept going like I was. God showed me what hell was going to be like. This was far beyond the natural, and no drug can even mess around with this experience. I begged God for another chance, knowing somehow He still loved me. I was now born agian, bought by the blood of Christ. Finally I was whole, finally I was complete. That space that I had been looking to fill, is the same void that every single human being has. While every one won't have the same experience as I did, every one will have the same result; they will find their true identity, in Christ Jesus.

      In Him,  Benjamin
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 2:12 PM on December 26, 2002 | IP
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I finally got what I always wanted, and it was right there the whole time.  
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 2:16 PM on December 26, 2002 | IP
Nova

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Faling is correct when i find the need to pray(altough i always should be praying) i just pray it in my heart for GOd hears all things. Schools can not force it but can allow you to pray as you wish.


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One God; One Truth; One Way
 


Posts: 96 | Posted: 7:34 PM on December 26, 2002 | IP
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However there is more and more of a lean on Christ, and it's not towards Him. I was ministering at work and was suddenly called into the managers office, to then be informed that if I talked about my God any more I would be sent home. I calmy reminded my manager that I have the right to talk about my God as long as I am not being profain. After briefly reminding her of my rights, we resolved the issue. However it takes a lot of God's presence in our lives to be able to overcome the anger towards the light in today's society. I do pray in my heart to God under all circumstances, offering up my whole life as a prayer. The more I know God, the more that I want to know Him.
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 11:33 PM on December 26, 2002 | IP
Nova

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Yes you do have the righ to say what you like as long as it does not impede on others rights. But like WHAT WE WERE TALKING ABOUT you can not try and force the Lord on those that work with you the more you drill them the more abrasive you will seem and maybe even push them further from Christ. One must profess god's mighty grace but also show it in his actions. Your actions will be the final thing that will show people what God does in your life not an insecent blabber. Everyone has the right to think their own way and of they feel threatened by what you are saying then the government can get invloved, but it is likely that when people hear God's truth they might feel threatened.


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One God; One Truth; One Way
 


Posts: 96 | Posted: 02:44 AM on December 27, 2002 | IP
debategirl88

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What about our rights we have the right to pray outloud. I was waching this documentury one day and it talked about how this little girl was praying outloud and she got in trouble. Then the teacher one day said anybody want to request a song to sing and she stood up and started singing Jesus Loves Me. She had to go to time out and later to the principles office. She was almost suspended and for whaat for bringing up God. Now this is not a teenager, this  is a little girl. She was in the 2nd grade.

If people don't want to pray when the class is the're not forced to. Don't put Christians through crap because you don't want to pray. Thats called selfishness. We have the RIGHT to pray out loud. You have the RIGHT not to pray outloud.


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A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned - this is the sum of good government.
-Thomas Jefferson
 


Posts: 157 | Posted: 3:28 PM on December 30, 2002 | IP
dsadevil

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True you can pray outloud IF you aren't interrupting the educational environment. And having an official moment for prayer isn't necessary for you to pray outloud. You can do it without govt. subsidized time.


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 6:39 PM on December 30, 2002 | IP
fallingupwards84

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good point. people who are opposed to school prayer are not necessarily opposed to prayer in general (although some might). they are opposed to the government giving time aside for students to pray


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 9:42 PM on December 30, 2002 | IP
sourbubblegum

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No. we go to school to learn. it is school not church. however if they want to have prayer time somewhere right before school starts for the people that WANT to participate in it i see nothing wrong with it. at my school they have prayer time in the library the 15 min. before school starts and you dont have to join if you dont want to. that i think is okay.


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Our days are numbered. Live each day to the fullest because there may not be a tomorrow.
 


Posts: 85 | Posted: 2:58 PM on December 31, 2002 | IP
Bograt

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I'm back-vacation. Bevis, I was no skipping out on your post, I just came back. Anyway, I don't care what other people belive. If there was time every day to pray IF you wanted, then I would find no offence in someone praying from ANY other religion, just as long as I got to pray to MY God. If someone has a problem with me mutering a few words under my breath to my God, then I got a few words to SHOUT at them!


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Damn you Murphy!
 


Posts: 134 | Posted: 11:26 PM on December 31, 2002 | IP
fallingupwards84

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of course an individual can pray on his own at school if he wants, even outloud. but the problem comes when the government requires everyone to do it


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 7:34 PM on January 1, 2003 | IP
Bograt

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Alright-we agree with that falling. I have beef with the people that say NO prayer at all. I used the "15 min to pray" idea a few posts ago as an example of a possible idea.


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Damn you Murphy!
 


Posts: 134 | Posted: 02:11 AM on January 2, 2003 | IP
fallingupwards84

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i dont think you understand what i am saying bograt. i dont think the government should set aside time at school for kids to pray. but if a kid wants to pray on his own, then let him do it.

i thought you were against the government getting involved in people's lives


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 12:27 PM on January 2, 2003 | IP
Bograt

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Then we do agree (wow). As I said, the 15 min prayer time was an IDEA that COULD be used, mainly as an EXAMPLE. However, at ye 'ole high school if a teach or administrator saw or heard you (or any student for that matter) they could report you and have you punished. I'm not talking about getting up on a soapbox and preaching, but saying a quiet, personal prayer before eating lunch. Although they did not enforce these rules to much, the rules did exist and at times handed out suspentions and detentions for this.


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Damn you Murphy!
 


Posts: 134 | Posted: 11:47 PM on January 2, 2003 | IP
dsadevil

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that's an awful policy (The school's). I oppose it utterly


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 2:51 PM on January 3, 2003 | IP
debategirl88

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Why shouldn't we sit out time for prayer? I'm not talking about everybody has to come but people who want to.


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A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned - this is the sum of good government.
-Thomas Jefferson
 


Posts: 157 | Posted: 4:29 PM on January 3, 2003 | IP
dsadevil

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B/C it takes away from educational time. The govt. and school has no obligation to subsidize religion on its own time.


-------
"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 5:39 PM on January 3, 2003 | IP
fallingupwards84

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listen debategirl, if a kid really really wants to pray he/she does not have to say it outloud but can say it inside their heart. believe me, there were plenty of times that i prayed to God in the hallway walking to class right before a test. did i have to say it outloud so everyone could hear me? no. did i have to shut my eyes and bow my head? no. i just said it to myself


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 01:10 AM on January 4, 2003 | IP
Nova

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i agree with falling entirly as long as you are not forcing your religion on those around you or interupting others there should be no laws or rules against it Bograt's highschool could be sued on acount of discrimination on account of religious beliefs, it goes both ways you can't say one is better but you also can't say a religuion is bad either. God hears all the smallest things in your heart and the loudest things you yell.


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One God; One Truth; One Way
 


Posts: 96 | Posted: 8:24 PM on January 6, 2003 | IP
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This is the way I look at it: First off, if you wern't forced to go to school, we wouldn't have this problem. Secondly, if you want to pray in school it's free speech and nobody should bother you especially if it's non-disruptive. Thirdly, is there anything wrong with opening a class with a prayer that asks God to bless America, parents, schools, teachers, and students?
-FP
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 4:58 PM on January 8, 2003 | IP
dsadevil

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um...yes there is a problem? the fact that it denotes govt. sponsership of a religious view?That's a big problem. STUDENTS CAN PRAY ON THEIR OWN TIME!!! THAT ISNT BEING DEBATED HERE. The question is govt. sponsership of prayer.


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 5:53 PM on January 8, 2003 | IP
fallingupwards84

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i agree 1000% with dsa. the debate is not whether or not students can pray on their own time (because you cant stop anyone from praying on their own time anyway), but the question is government sponsership of prayer. we are by no means trying to ban prayer


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 7:49 PM on January 8, 2003 | IP
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Sorry I misunderstood. But, I will say, what's wrong with the government sponcering prayer? Do you just have a problem with govt. sponcered prayer in school, or is that everywhere the govt. is involved? If it's the latter, check out my post on the "Separation of Church and State" debate.
-FP
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 11:16 PM on January 8, 2003 | IP
fallingupwards84

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let me tell you what is wrong with government sponsership prayer.

first of all, our government is not a theocracy and was not intended to have a state religion.

secondly, i think it is disrespecting God when there is government sponsered school prayer. why, you might ask? well, do you think that the prayer is in any way personal for the students at all? or is it just a daily routine with no thought put into it at all.

thirdly (is that a word?), Jesus himself told us that prayer should be personal. He told us many times to not pray like the pharasees do, but to instead pray humbly and inside our hearts


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 12:12 AM on January 9, 2003 | IP
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Falling, I agree with you in the sence of the "rutine" aspect, but what I realy don't understand is, what's wrong with setting aside 5 min. for prayer. This will cause the students to think about their religion. Wether they are an athiest or a thiest, it makes you make up your own mind on what side you are on.
And when you set aside time to pray, you don't force anyone to pray! THAT would be unconstitutional, not setting aside time for it.
-FP
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 1:18 PM on January 9, 2003 | IP
dsadevil

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Rather than rebut you directly on your constitutional critique, just read up on
Engel v. Vitale
Abington v. Schempf
Lemon v. Kurtzman
Lee v. Weissman
to find out why you are misinterpeting the 1st amendment here.

OK, I can't resist. I will directly rebut you (but that doesn't exempt you from your homework )

The problem with setting aside time for prayer is twofold. First is your reason for it: that it would cause students to think about their religious belief. Now tell me, why is that a legitimate governmental objective (one of the 3 parts to the "Lemon" test on church-state intermingling)? What secular purpose does it serve? The 5 mins of time could be used for math, or english, which is what schools are supposed to be doing. The second problem with it is that it is not religiously neutral. You can't set aside time for prayer and say it is neutral to atheists, because atheists don't pray. It is saying, in effect, "The government believes this to be an activity SO important that we will take time out of your standardize tests to do it." To kids, especially impressionable children, this is especially dangerous. The mere IMPRESSION that the govt is supporting one religious belief over another in schools is enough to cause a church-state violation.

Just as a side note, would this prayer be outloud? If not, what if their was a religion that required prayer to be done outloud? If so, a) would satanists be allowed to prayer outloud?
b) wouldn't that make it quite obvious who was christian and who wasn't, thus setting the stage for a religious confrontation ("whats the matter, kid? don't you believe in christ?")?


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 4:56 PM on January 9, 2003 | IP
Nova

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God wants no one to be forced to know him. Well they realy wouldn't know him if they were forced into it anyway. non the less. Invasion of others rights is out of the question because this nation allows for people to chose(to an extent) The entire i dea of public schools bug me. They are awfully socialist, and they are also just breeding grounds for brainwashed peons. The fact that we are forced to go to school seems to be illogical to me...Freedom think your own way... but we wil teach you history and science the way the governemnt has decided was best...anyhow forced prayer would eb bad.


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One God; One Truth; One Way
 


Posts: 96 | Posted: 11:22 PM on January 9, 2003 | IP
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dsadevil,
There is no "Seperation of Church and State" mentioned in the Constitution! Read the Constitution! It says "CONGRESS shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion, nor prohibiting the free exercise thereof" Get the point! Teachers are not Congress! Don't be ignorant, by saying that the Supreme Court said that it applies to all govt. officials. Because when the Supreme Court made rulings such as that, THEY violated the Constitution by changing it illigally. The First Ammendment was ratified effective (along with the rest of the Bill of Rights) December 15, 1791, And hasn't changed yet! It still means CONGRESS!
-FP
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 1:45 PM on January 14, 2003 | IP
fallingupwards84

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i think you are brainwashed


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 3:41 PM on January 14, 2003 | IP
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We know that the First Amendment provides  us with religious liberty, yet, like the term "separation of church and state," the words "religious liberty" are also not found in the Constitution.  

The term "separtion of church and state" means more than the absence of a state church; instead the principle serves to prevent one institution from supporting and controlling the other.  Rather than being anti-religious, the separation of church and state is essential for religious liberty and the growth of religious communities.  It is because of church state separation that religion has flourished in the United States.  In addition to spawning over 300 denomination of christianity, the United States has been the birthplace of mormonism, jehovah's witnesses, christian science, seventh day adventists, and a host of other religions.

The separation of church and state ensures the autonomy of religion, while it acts as a check on possible governmental overreaching into the rights of conscience.  It assures that no citizen is forced to attend religious services of any kind, or support any religion.  Separation of church and state does not mean the removal of religious influences in our society; instead it means a secular government that is truly neutral on religious matters.
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 4:13 PM on January 14, 2003 | IP
dsadevil

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FP:
The 1st amendment applies only to congress (and by extension the fed govt.). But the 14th amendment extends it to the states (priveledges and immunities clause), and the state governments (who authorize school prayer statutes), and any agents of that government (including teachers). So the supreme court decesions are not "illegal" as you claim (what is an illegal decision anyway?), but rather grounded in the text of the constitution as modified by the 14th amedment. I am curious if you have ever even READ Engel v. Vitale and its opinions, the case you are so quick to call illegal. I have. It was a ruling throughly grounded in the constitution.


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 4:53 PM on January 14, 2003 | IP
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dsa,
I will admit I have not read the opinion on Engle vs. Vital, but I don't think I'm wrong about calling it illigal if that is the ruling that said the First Ammendment applied to the States. Since (as you agreed I asume) the First Ammendment spacifically talkes to Congress, then the First Ammendment only applies to Congress.
This is what I mean:
The 1st Ammendment says "Congress".
The 10th Ammendment says "United States" (Federal govt.).
The 11th Ammendment says "The Judicial power".
The 15th Ammendment says "United States...any State".
The 16th Ammendment says "Congress".
The 17th Ammendment says "Senate of the United States".
The 18th Ammendment, Sec. 2 says "Congress and the several States".
The 19th Ammendment says "United States...any State".
The 20th Ammendment, Sec. 2 says "Congress", and Sec. 4 says "Congress".
Does the 14th Ammendment make all these other ammendments apply to the states and other branches as well?
And I don't understand how the 14th Ammendment has anything to do with saying the 1st Ammendment applies to the states as well. Please explain this to me, I'm open.
The 14th Ammendment was ratified effective on June 15th, 1868. The thing that I don't understand is, why did we wait over 100 years to figure out that it was unconstitutional to have prayer in schools?
-FP
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 10:44 PM on January 14, 2003 | IP
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Falling,
What do you mean when you say I'm brainwashed?
-FP
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 10:50 PM on January 14, 2003 | IP
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14
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 11:29 PM on January 14, 2003 | IP
dsadevil

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sorry about that. that should have been me (Dsadevil, in case this STILL isn't working). Anyway, here's the deal with the 14th amendment. Everyone knows the equal protection clause of the 14th amendment, its the famous one. The less famous, but legally superimportant part of the 14th amendment is the priviledges and immunities clause, which states (im paraphrasing) that no state can infringe upon the privledges and immunities that the federal govt. can't infringe on. If you read engel (and virtually every sup ct. case in the last century dealing with the 14th amendment and the states) they will say, "the X amendment, as applied to the states by the 14th amendment." So yes, everyone of those privledges and immunities you quoted (the amendments and bill of rights) now applies to the states via the priviledges and immunities clause (see if you'd actually read Engel you'd know this!). That's just the way it had been interpreted. The supreme court ruled in, i believe Barron v. Balitmore that the bill of rights DIDNT apply to the states (this is pre-14th amendment). the framers of the 14th clearly intended it (the privileges and immunities clause) to be a reversal of Barron, and virtually all of modern constitutional is based off the premise that the 14th amendment applies these amendments to the states.

As to your "why'd it take over 100 years?" This is based off a misunderstanding over how the court works. The court doesn't just decide "hey, let's make this unconstitutional today!" It gets cases that come to it, cases that somebody starts by suing someone else (or by a criminal case, doesn't matter). The case that challenged school prayer (specifically, the New York state board of regents prayer for schools) happened to occur in 1962. So that's when it was decided. Why'd it take the court 100 years to decide the segregation was illegal (brown v. board, 1954)? Especially considering they already decided it WAS ok in 1896 (plessy v. ferguson)?


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 11:42 PM on January 14, 2003 | IP
fallingupwards84

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FP, what do you mean when you say i am brainwashed?


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 12:55 AM on January 15, 2003 | IP
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dsa,
I have been trying to read the ruling on Engle v. Vital for some time now, but I can't find it. I know this sounds crazy, but I must be looking in all the wrong places. If you could give me a link or something like that, I will read the ruling.
Falling,
I never said that I think your brainwashed on this forum. So, please tell me why you think I'm brainwashed on this forum. If you want to know why I think your brainwashed, ask me on the forum I said that on.
-FP
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 2:03 PM on January 15, 2003 | IP
fallingupwards84

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i did, and you didnt answer me


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 3:55 PM on January 15, 2003 | IP
    
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