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dsadevil

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www.law.cornell.edu has a great database of court opinions. click on opinions, then historic opinions, and it will be under "e"


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 4:12 PM on January 15, 2003 | IP
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Falling,
I don't remember calling you "brainwashed". It might have been somone else using "Guest", and put FP on the bottom.
Sorry about that anyway.
-FP

 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 9:13 PM on January 15, 2003 | IP
AshleyRenee

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I was looking in a law book the other day because i had to present this debate in front of a forum and i was for school prayer. It was something like "The greater good for the greater number" Which i interpreted to mean that because a vast amjority of people in the united states have a faith on some higher power, prayer should indeed be allowed.
 


Posts: 1 | Posted: 12:34 PM on March 15, 2003 | IP
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I always thought that prayers are allowed.   You are not forced to pray, but you are certainly welcome to pray.  I don't think any homeroom teacher would get worked up because some students pray.  It's not that it's not allowed... a lot of people are against the fact that people want to make it mandatory.  
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 9:45 PM on March 16, 2003 | IP
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I think we should have prayer in schools, but not just for Christians. I think prayer should be for ANY reliigon, whether you be Hindu, Muslim, Wiccan, Christian, Catholic, or whatever. And those who try to force the Christian religion down your throat are wrong. Not saying that I'm right, though. But I do find it rather idiotic when those kind of people go around shoving it into them, then get all offended and fly off the handle when non-Christians are either scared, angered, or whatever by them. Not all Christians are like that though. I think you have a choice of religion. And if we decide to allow prayer in school, it should be for everyone, not just Christians. Though I'm Christian, I do think some of us shouldn't act the way we do, but then none of us are perfect. Then again, I'm just another 13-year-old.

                                     
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 6:52 PM on March 26, 2003 | IP
WinAce

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Prayer is most certainly allowed in schools. The ACLU has defended the rights of Christians and others to pray numerous times in the past. It's the teacher-led mandatory kind that's illegal, clearly unconstitutional, unBiblical and just plain OBNOXIOUS.


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"Atheism isn't a religion, it's a personal relationship with reality."
 


Posts: 5 | Posted: 12:48 AM on March 31, 2003 | IP
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At my high school, in the morning, right before O Canada (I'm canadian) comes on the intercom, the principal says the lords prayer over it. Of course, you're allowed to sit if it's against your religion, but I don't think it's right.
First of all, if you do sit down, you're alienated from your peers, and they know that you believe differently from them, and some kids take it to extremes and beat you up or something. It happened to a friend, and as it turns out, he decided to take homeschooling after that incident. I would sit, but I'm already very unpopular as it is, and it would just alienate me more. I usually just doodle on my binder while it's going on.
Second, if they say a Christian prayer, they should say a Hindu prayer, and Islamic and Wiccan and whatever else you can think of.
Third, even if they do do that (which is very unlikely) the atheists would still be excluded.

If you want to pray, then pray right before school, or during lunch recess or just say a silent prayer before a test or something, but don't stand on a (metaphorical) soapbox and proclaim your love for a god for all to hear.
Of course, it's horrible for a principal to suspend a student for saying a quick prayer before they eat, but if it's disrupting the whole class, then don't say it. Just my two cents.

~Me.
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 7:24 PM on April 16, 2003 | IP
nothing_satisfies

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It's not a question of majority vs. minority, nor is it or should be a question of morality or religious vindiction.  The question and answer both stand within the legal realm of the constitution.  It is illegal to have mandatory or forced prayer, it is also illegal to stop any private praying done freely.  

forced meaning any kind of prayer in which students and faculaty are forced to join and take part in, or any mass prayer (school wide or within classrooms).  In other words it is not legal to broadcast a prayer over the intercom.  

Private meaning individual prayer, or prayer done within a relgious group.
 


Posts: 8 | Posted: 11:12 PM on June 9, 2003 | IP
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Maybe, some of you who do not believe in prayer in school, should look at some of the statistics since it was taken out in 1962. They don't lie, and no matter what excuse you come up with, this country was organized by christian standards. Let's not forget how Satanists, and witches including so called wicans, were persecuted and considered undesirables. This country has a history of people wanting christian standards, not perfect behavior.
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 9:33 PM on November 13, 2003 | IP
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You know, all you WICANS and devil worshipers...I feel very sorry for you. If you could even imagine the pain and sorrow you will feel once you get to hell you would completely turn around and get on your knees and pray to god this instant. I'm a strong christian and ever since I have become one I have felt so much inner peace. It feels so great, I feel like I have someone to talk to all the time and answer my prayers. It works it really does. I suggest you all consider. We're all gods creations. Imagine how hurt he is by all of you saying those cruel things about him.
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 7:55 PM on February 3, 2004 | IP
jito

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You know, all you WICANS and devil worshipers...I feel very sorry for you. If you could even imagine the pain and sorrow you will feel once you get to hell you would completely turn around and get on your knees and pray to god this instant. I'm a strong christian and ever since I have become one I have felt so much inner peace. It feels so great, I feel like I have someone to talk to all the time and answer my prayers. It works it really does. I suggest you all consider. We're all gods creations. Imagine how hurt he is by all of you saying those cruel things about him.
___

Hell is bogus.  Sheol, haides and Gehena have been mistranslated.  God promised death for lack of obediance - not eternal torture.  

And people who think they get to say who is and is not acceptable to God tick me off.  You are WAY out of bounds.

(Edited by jito 2/17/2004 at 4:43 PM).


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- Leslie
 


Posts: 19 | Posted: 4:42 PM on February 17, 2004 | IP
adultswim

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No. Because not all people belive in god and they will be offended by this. If the kids want to pray, let them pray but I think that if their was organized prayer in public school then that will only lead to riots and stuff like that.


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Watch [adultswim] 11pm-2am westside time only on cartoonnetwork
 


Posts: 10 | Posted: 01:47 AM on March 8, 2004 | IP
Cerridwen

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Ahem...the word is WICCAN, thanks, & we are not "devil worshippers"....please attempt to have at least a small amount of correct information before you go about spouting your accusations & condemnations.  
You have no reason to feel sorry for me, I am happy, healthy, & completely capable of thinking for myself. Incidentally, I feel very sorry for you...I can't imagine how awful it would be to be so close-minded & afraid of what you don't understand....to follow blindly along a path simply because someone told you to....throwing all logic out the window. That book, you know, the one you put so much faith in...the bible, has borrowed, stolen, & outright raped quite a few ancient legends & stories. Stories that most definitely are not limited to Chrisitanity. The ressurection, the flood, the creation of humankind...it's all been told a million ways, backward & forward, for many centuries.  Even the "Christian" holidays were first Pagan. Yeshuah was no doubt a great teacher, not to mention quite the liberal & anti-establishment fellow, but I'm certain he would not be thrilled to see today the way that he has been deified or the atrocious things that have been carried out under his name. Goody for you that you're a strong Christian...but I'm a strong Pagan, so your little threats do nothing for me. I have my own inner peace, & my own prayers answered, thanks. I'm curious to know what these "cruel things" you think we are saying about your god are, by the way.
On the church/state issue, prayer is perfectly legal in schools, forced prayer is not, and that's as it should be. It is not the responsibilty of the government to teach religion to children, it's the parents'. If  one feels that his or her child needs to be taught about religion or prayer in school, then said parent should enroll said child into a parochial school. It really isn't that complicated. The United States is a secular nation, housing a myriad of religions & non-religions, & for children who may not be Christian(like my children) to be forced to pray to a god they don't acknowledge belief in is folly. My children observe "45 seconds of quiet reflection" every morning in their school. That is as it should be...where children can pray if they so desire or not.
Love & Blessings, Cerridwen*


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Love & Blessings, Cerridwen*

"To be nobody but yourself in a world which is doing its best, night and day, to make you everybody else means to fight the hardest battle which any human being can fight; And never stop fighting." ~~E.E.Cummings
 


Posts: 6 | Posted: 02:37 AM on May 27, 2004 | IP
parrotisla

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I can not believe what I am reading. First I will start with the Fact that George Washington who was a Diest by the way said that prayer and a couple other things were important to public education and if any of the three things were taken out it would basically fail. Second of all NO WHERE HAVE I EVER READ IN THE CONSTITUTION THAT IT SAYS SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE!! Read it again. Separation of Church and state was an interpretation of the first amendment which is wrong. Here is why , the first amendment states,"Congress shall make NO law RESPECTING an establishment of religion, or PROHIBITING the FREE exercise thereof." The reason for this amendment was because in England there was a state church somtimes it was Catholic and sometimes it was protastant, Our founding fathers beleived in a Higher power, no they all didn't beleive in God and No they were not all Christian. No separation of church and sate, but an embracing of all religions. One person posted that teaching all religions is impossible. No its not, if thats true how do we teach anything. You choose the major religions and then you teach a little bit about Wiccan and Buddism and hindu and then you have the main teaching of the class of Christianity, Judaism, and Islam. Sorry Athiests, last time I checked Athieism is not a religion. I'm sick of people saying they are offended by the prayer in school. People are offended by anything now adays and the last time I checked it is not an invasion of rights to offend someone. Why can't we and why shouldn't we be offended sometimes. WHAT IS WRONG WITH TEACHING GOOD VALUES!!!!That is all that Jesus taught and even if you don't beleive he is God's son you can and SHOULD agree with the fact that he taught good values. Love your neighbor, love your enemies. In my life I have had more problems being mean to people then being nice to people.Prayer is very beneficial, one person posted that Jesus said pray in privacy. What a joke. If that were true then why have churches, why pray at dinner with your family. Jesus encouraged prayer where ever. The statistics do show that when God was kicked out of school Sexually transmitted deseases skyrocketed along with premarital sex, drug use, suicide. DsaDevil post wants to say what abbout civil rights and the southern sates blah blah. What does that have to do with the statistics. Kids are being made fun of in school at record amounts. Jesus never taught that but, there is no Jesus in school look at the schools it is right in front of your eyes and no one can see that there is a positive correlation between bad behavior and no prayer in school. You can and should have prayer in school, it dosen't hurt anyone, if your offended so what, Why don't you people go watch the Christmas Episode of South Park where they made a play that was completely non offensive. This may sound silly but, you can learn alot from south park when you actually look at the message they are conveying. I don't care what you believe in but some kind of religious and goodvalues teaching needs to be taught to kids. You teach people to be nice while their kids they are nice their whole life.When a child is born they know nothing. Just what you teach them. I am a christian,but I beleive that there is not one way to heaven, God wants you to beleive in him and trust him no matter what the faith. BTW WICCAN is not a religion either. Now if we wnt to check Webster's dictionary we can, I'm not but religion is a beleif in a higher being. I guess we could stretch Wiccan into the category as with anything but Atheism is clearly not a religion and does not have to be respected by the constitution. In God we trust is on monery and one nation, Under God in the pledge. Now I ask you whose God? The Christian, Jewish, Islamic, buddist, the list goes on but, I do not see a specification nor by having these statements on money or the pledge have I ever seen anyone persuaded to join whatever religion it is in thepledge or money. According to webster God is a supreme or ultimate reality, it is also a being or object believed to have more than natural attribute and powers and to require man's worship. WOW. God could be anything beleived to have more than natural attributes and requires worship. Well I guess I have done enough blabbing. If you disagree and would like to e-mail please do. my e-mail in randall@parrotisla.com just label the subject, prayer in schools. TY Treat people the way you want to be treated and you will have a better day. God bless you all.
 


Posts: 2 | Posted: 12:59 PM on April 2, 2005 | IP
parrotisla

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I wanted to fix a statement that i said above about G. Washington. In his farewell speech he said,"Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness - these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens...Let it simply be asked, Where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation desert the oaths which are the instruments of investigation in courts of justice? And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle.    The important stuff is in bold, but this is very important ,but also notice it says religious principle, again I'm goint to ask a question how many religions have some kind of prayer? Its just not christianity. The Founding Fathers intended that the first amendment was to prevent from the gov't establishing an official religion. Nevr has our country done that specifically. you could argue that it leans toward christianity, but the last time I checked you can be a jew or muslim or whatever. Where do morals come from? Obviously religion and even George Washington knew that. With that argument why isn't the law that says its illegal to murder unconstitutional after all it is in the Bible and ten Commandments, Why isn't lying in court unconstitutional, after all the Bible and ten commandments says thou shall not lie. I say these laws are unconstitutional because there religious principles based on the Christian Bible . Is this not a valid argument? Stop being offended people by what other people do and worry about yourself. The reason our country is so crappy now is because 1, everyone is worrying about what everyone else is doing, 2 no one wants to take responsibility for their own actions, 3 DRug laws that waste our tax money to imprison people that are not criminals while murderers and rapists walk out of jail everyday to make more room for drug criminals, and 4 be offended and suing people for every little thing.  TY
 


Posts: 2 | Posted: 2:40 PM on April 2, 2005 | IP
Ezack

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Ok,

Exoss I respect your arguments but now it is time for my refutation.

School prayer should be legal because you're denying first ammendment rights bestowed onto them by our forefathers. Also I am not saying we should force prayer like your stupid teacher did when you were a younger child.
I am saying you should as an american citizen if you had a religion that requires prayer than do it. I pray every week when I have an extremely hard test even if I studied.

 Your  debating friend Ezack


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Mr.XXXXX XXXXX
 


Posts: 8 | Posted: 7:37 PM on April 25, 2005 | IP
Ezack

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OK,

Parrotisla if that is your name,

Do not ever disresespect the U.S. government. They have provided a way for amercan citizens to excercise freedoms in a democratic government. Everything may not be perfect but the government survives as do we so therefore  the United States provided the right for the excercising of religion in schools.
The truth is as american citizens (I don't know all of the governments in other countries) should respect what we do have and that is freedom. The truth is we do need to respect our government for what they gave us and not take away our rights (like prayer in schools) we are not taking away the first ammendment right because 28% of our country disagrees with the fact that we have freedom to exercise prayer in schools.  and the fact that less people disagree and it's our government's law outweighs the fact that the U.S. sucks.

Therefore in conclusion Prayer should be allowed in Public schools.




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Mr.XXXXX XXXXX
 


Posts: 8 | Posted: 7:49 PM on April 25, 2005 | IP
artemis2721

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I'm sorry to all those who seem to believe that school prayer should be allowed, and sad to hear those that believe that no prayer should be allowed. Sad to hear the fact that most people are so ignorant. what does school prayer have to do with school shootings or with teen pregnancies? And who said that when they said school prayer is right way back in the day they specifically meant christians? no, back then they meant catholics. And by the way if you are still wiccan, or any wiccan, you would know that we not only practice magickes but also are allowed to have other religions as long as you keep in mind that the one almighty God is considered, for me, the Goddess, and for others the horned god sorry i dont swing that way. Also, school prayer should not be inforced upon anyone, you can unintentionally insult someone or something like that. But most importantly when you have school prayer you cause rifts between people. And it is unconstitutional on both sides. In disagreement because you should have the right of not being offended or judged by others by what relifion you practice. In agreement because the first amendment states the right to freedom of speech and all other rights  including that of freedom of religion. Would it not satisfy to stay the way we are in public schools?  We have no forced prayer but we have the right to pray if we feel the need to. Also, in this situation mr. Ezack, would it not make sense to disrespect the U.S. government after all they have done? Rather, we should not disrespect our fore fathers nor our country, for they had all the right ideas. Actually, nowadays we are making these conflicts and for what, may I ask? School prayer shouldnot be allowed in public schools because school prayer is a forced act and you are stating that the government has provided a way for us to exercise all of our freedoms that we have been given the liberty to have and yet what is school prayer doing to us? just look at it. look at the rift. look at all those extremists and what they have done. this my friend is the cause of forced religion which you are stating is right at the end of your comment and yet your second sentence is saying how we have all these freedoms. do you expect evry teacher to know every religion? no? well thats what the govnt expects if they decide to nforce school prayer. say if you were in 7th grade like me and in gifted you might better understand what im trying to say. And im not saying this for anything but just for your grade level you get discriminated, if you r to smart or to dumb you get discriminated. imagine what would happen if religion was brought to school. imagine all the discrimination. and the last and final thing that i have to say is to please reread everything posted about school prayer and how the subject was comletely turned around, making it seem as if some of you were to scared to say anything else about it. you mention our current govnt. i dont now if itll change for good or for worse but before we were on our way to being controlled. we said so many bad things about bush, but the people, us, who supposedly make up the govnt o this country could do nothing cause of how scared we were. answer this to yourself, and think how school prayer is related to tis, because it is most definitely a beginning and maybe you all should read some of the constitution to know and realize just how unconstitutional weve all been lately.
  Answer this please im begging.
What is the point of having freedoms, so many freedoms, if we are so scared to fulfill them after we asked for them? Just what is freedom if we are willing to trade our freedom for safety, a safety that we should have regardless if we give up our freedom or not? what is the point of giving up your freedom to then just have a pretense to the world of being free, what is the point of giving in your freedom for the pretense of safety that we all have yet to see?
And what is the point, if us unpolitical beings that have no control over govt, like we, no like they make us, believe, understand more than those that we have appointed to speak out for us?


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For the pursuit of liberty we should beallowed freedom, but what does the word freedom mean when you gladly trade it in for safety?
what does it mean when nightmares dream of peace? when shadows wish for light?- irial from ink exchange
There is a method to all madness. Wit is educated insolonce.
True leadership must be for the benefit of the follower, not the enrichment of the leader-Robert Townsend
They do not understand that they are prisoners anmore than the cavalry officers do.-sword in the stone by T.A.White
 


Posts: 1 | Posted: 8:01 PM on February 20, 2009 | IP
goodman9421

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Quote from jito at 4:42 PM on February 17, 2004 :
You know, all you WICANS and devil worshipers...I feel very sorry for you. If you could even imagine the pain and sorrow you will feel once you get to hell you would completely turn around and get on your knees and pray to god this instant. I'm a strong christian and ever since I have become one I have felt so much inner peace. It feels so great, I feel like I have someone to talk to all the time and answer my prayers. It works it really does. I suggest you all consider. We're all gods creations. Imagine how hurt he is by all of you saying those cruel things about him.
___

Hell is bogus.  Sheol, haides and Gehena have been mistranslated.  God promised death for lack of obediance - not eternal torture.  

And people who think they get to say who is and is not acceptable to God tick me off.  You are WAY out of bounds.

(Edited by jito 2/17/2004 at 4:43 PM).



Thoes are harsh words for someone who has 0 proof that heaven or hell exsists. notice how its religous people who are at our troops funerals with signs saying thank god there dead. or how about 90% of wars being started by religion... if there was one creator why are there so many so different religons.. and tell me what religon is the right one? im sure that the higher power wouldnt like people praying to the wrong person..
 


Posts: 1 | Posted: 3:08 PM on August 6, 2009 | IP
    
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