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To what extent do you believe Church and State should be separated? 

http://www.youdebate.com/DEBATES/church_and_state.HTM
 


Posts: 31 | Posted: 7:46 PM on April 30, 2002 | IP
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Florida has just allowed a moslem girl to have her drivers license picture taken with a veil.  Liberals defend this, saying we must make allowances for immigrants and religious freedom.  They are wrong.

First off, white people made america great. White men from Europe risked their lives, property and families to create a free nation. Blacks, mexicans, indians, arabs had nothing to do with it, and they have never even tried to the same when they had the chance. Now we are being flooded with 3rd worlders who are being told by idiot liberals that they need not change their ways for us.

If the US becomes more like Mexico, or Saudi Arabia or anywhere else, it will no longer be the place it can be, and that would be a loss for the world. They would work right along with liberals to dismantle our constitutional protections. America needs to be governed by the constitution, not the whims of dog-eaters and camel lovers. We need more white people who respect life and property.

If Muslim rules indicated that women are the property of the men, should Florida law respect that too? They can marry 4 women and divorce them by saying "I divorce you" 3 times. Then the women is out on the street with nothing. If she is raped, without 4 male muslim witnesses on her side, she will be killed for adultry. Should we respect that? Is that "diversity" good for America?Muslims allow men to marry 9 y/o girls, so should we respect that? Or should we make muslims who come to the US adapt to our ways?

Think about this, if you let ragheads hide their faces on drivers licsences, how can you require anyone to get their picture taken?

BTW, the florida woman is a US white girl who converted.

If in America, live like an American. Like we used to be before the immigration act of '68 that turned us into a third world wann-be.

martinkh@yahoo.com
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 10:21 PM on August 10, 2002 | IP
sql

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Hello All,

I believe Dr. D. James Kennedy, in a sermon for President's Week clarifies the issue of Separation of Church and State in the historical manner in which it was written:

The Real Thomas Jefferson
 


Posts: 3 | Posted: 12:59 AM on August 16, 2002 | IP
dsadevil

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Get an unbiased source next time.
From the site you cited's "mission" section:
"To inform and equip the American public and motivate Christians to defend and implement the Biblical principles on which our country was founded."

Somehow I doubt they are particularly open-minded on this particular issue...

The fact remains that in order to safeguard the free exercise clause of the 1st amendment as well as to pratically implent the establishment clause of the 1st amendment, a wall of seperation IS necessary. Oh, and btw, if anything, America was built on JEWISH principles. We had them first. But you don't see me running around saying everyone needs to say the Shema before school, do you?


-------
"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 01:04 AM on August 18, 2002 | IP
Jigokusabre

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What uniquly "Christian" principles were used to found America?


-------
 


Posts: 30 | Posted: 02:07 AM on August 19, 2002 | IP
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dsadevil,

Were I to link an article from athiests.org, would that satisfy?

The site I pointed at, though it firmly is based in Christianity, discussed actual history, not Marxist revisionism.
 


Posts: 3 | Posted: 5:33 PM on August 24, 2002 | IP
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Atheists.org would be an awful site as well to quote. But I'm not a orginalist in my constitutional theory, so that is irrelevant. The necessary and proper clause of the constitution gives congress the authority and duty to pass laws to protect and enforce the 1st amendment, and by extension the judiciary has the right to strike down laws that would threaten the application of the 1st amendment. Mixing church-state would make 1st amendment protections moot,  and therefore are unconstitutional.
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 7:22 PM on August 24, 2002 | IP
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I'm at a loss in understanding your post.

The necessary and proper clause of the constitution gives congress the authority and duty to pass laws to protect and enforce the 1st amendment, and by extension the judiciary has the right to strike down laws that would threaten the application of the 1st amendment.


The 1st Amendment is part of our Bill of Rights, one of the many inalienable rights in which it begins with: "Congress shall make no law..." It needs no protection as the Oath of Office, swearing to uphold the Constitution is a requirement to hold any public office.

The establishment clause was to prevent the Feds from recognizing a particular religion, though amazing that State recognized religions were popular through the 1830's. The 1st Amendment was to protect religion from government, not government from religion. Our Founders also created a Republic based on the rule of law, not a Democracy of majority rules. If majority rules, why does one jurors Nay overule 11 jurors Yea in our system of justice?

If we hadn't lost our 10th Amendment rights, we wouldn't have this current Orwellian Monster feeding off the misinformed sheeple.
 


Posts: 3 | Posted: 12:06 AM on August 25, 2002 | IP
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I think the first amendment most certainly is ment to protect govt. from religion as the reverse. Nobody wanted the govt. to become an inquisitor.  You are somewhat naive if you think that congress' oath of office would prevent them from acting in ways that would undermine the constitution. After all, if I'm right, all the school prayer advocates would be acting illegally, and if you're right, those congressmen who would wish to ban school prayer would be acting illegally.
I agree entirely that our system was created based on rule of law, not democracy. Hence, the whine of the majority for school prayer does not override the law (in this case the 1st amendment) which, if applied in a way to give it any teeth at all, would prohibit it. The fact that it is not specifically mentioned is moot. The constitution protects Free SPEECH, does this mean that we can outlaw what is written, as that is not technically speech but writing? Of course not. You interpret the constitution far too narrowly, and it renders it practically ineffective.

As for the tenth amendment, well, its all interstate commerce right?
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 12:18 AM on August 25, 2002 | IP
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that last post was mine. i guess i forgot to login


-------
"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 12:24 AM on August 25, 2002 | IP
Exxoss

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To all extent.  Church and state are two different topics.  Why run our country on the basic belief that christianity is correct and all other religions are wrong and anti society?


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I am Exxoss, come to save you all from your impending doom!!!!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

-Exxoss
 


Posts: 438 | Posted: 4:29 PM on September 25, 2002 | IP
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THe seperation of Church and State should be complete, just to get that out of the way. But then, of course, if I'm right, then the US has been braking the Consititution since 1930's, owing to that little "under God" bit they added into the Constitution. A little pigheaded, wouldn't you say?
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 10:46 AM on September 26, 2002 | IP
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your right.  Our constitution has never been followed.  The settlers who made the constitution were puritans, and they shunned all from other religions, usually leading to the hanging of other religious people.


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I am Exxoss, come to save you all from your impending doom!!!!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

-Exxoss
 


Posts: 438 | Posted: 3:09 PM on September 26, 2002 | IP
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The definition of "separation of church and state" has been twisted.  Instead of insuring us religious freedom as it was intended, it is now used to mean no religious observance is allowed, only athiesm.  I go to a public school where I see this every day.


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No time for mediocrity.

People call me a Bible-Thumping reactionist ...and I'm proud to bear the name.
 


Posts: 293 | Posted: 9:35 PM on October 11, 2002 | IP
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Howso?
You can read a bible whenever you want.  You can organize clubs, devotionals, etc. as long as they are not school sponsered.  You can pray whenever you want.  I don't see the suppression.


-------
"The greatest evil is not done in those sordid dens of evil that Dickens loved to paint ... but is conceived and ordered (moved, seconded, carried and minuted) in clear, carpeted, warmed, well-lighted offices, by quiet men with white collars and cut fingernails and smooth-shaven cheeks who do not need to raise their voices." - Thomas Merton

"I thank my God for every remembrance of you." - Paul
 


Posts: 341 | Posted: 10:09 PM on October 11, 2002 | IP
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In my school newspaper there is an artical trying to take "under God" out of the peledge of allegiance because they say it violates seperation of church and state.


-------
No time for mediocrity.

People call me a Bible-Thumping reactionist ...and I'm proud to bear the name.
 


Posts: 293 | Posted: 10:32 PM on October 11, 2002 | IP
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and they are right. when u have the government (State) invoking God (church) that's mixing church and state. The fact that every school does it doesn't change that in the slightest from a legal percepective.


-------
"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 10:44 PM on October 11, 2002 | IP
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Perhaps I should include the letter I wrote to the editor of the paper then...(should have known this was coming)

I found your article on the pledge pretty amusing to tell you the truth.  About how schools today "shove monotheistic propaganda down the throats of children".  When in actuality, it is quite the opposite, especially at CHS(my HS).  You stated that "...subliminal messages constantly adorn our national institutions."  Well let me turn this statement back around.  You said in your own article "thank our lucky stars..." this saying came from astrology, and branch of paganism, are you now subtly brainwashing me to become a pagan?  How many times have I copied down "sponges evolved from single-celled organisms", "Evolution has given the worm..."(actual quotes from a CHS oceans class) Take note, these are not in the evolution segment of Biology we all have to take, nor in a class supposedly even teaching evolution at all, but they clearly state evolution to be fact.  This "national institution" of CHS spews out more atheistic "brainwashing" by far then anything else.  Maybe before you go picking apart the pledge, you should work on eradicating some of the Atheistic propaganda being shoved down the throats of children raised believing in God at CHS.  Another thing that baffles me about your article is your obvious hostility towards the very thought of God.  If God doesn’t exist, then why are you so offended by him? Would one nation under Santa Clause offend you, and impose on your beliefs enough to write a flaming article about it? Perhaps you should consider these things, because it appears to me that your article itself is further proof of atheism being taught as a "right" and "popular" thing to these "impressionable children in public school".

One student under God,

   -My real name



-------
No time for mediocrity.

People call me a Bible-Thumping reactionist ...and I'm proud to bear the name.
 


Posts: 293 | Posted: 11:30 PM on October 11, 2002 | IP
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I think you are missing the whole point of what I said before anyway, seperation of church and state does not mean you cannot mention God in a public school, it only means that you cant go make a law saying that if you dont become catholic or something that we will kill you or throw you out of the country



(Edited by Sakata 10/11/2002 at 11:52 PM).


-------
No time for mediocrity.

People call me a Bible-Thumping reactionist ...and I'm proud to bear the name.
 


Posts: 293 | Posted: 11:32 PM on October 11, 2002 | IP
thistownwilleatu

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What....in the crap...did you just say?  Out of sheer morbid curiosity I'd like to hear your opinion.


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"The greatest evil is not done in those sordid dens of evil that Dickens loved to paint ... but is conceived and ordered (moved, seconded, carried and minuted) in clear, carpeted, warmed, well-lighted offices, by quiet men with white collars and cut fingernails and smooth-shaven cheeks who do not need to raise their voices." - Thomas Merton

"I thank my God for every remembrance of you." - Paul
 


Posts: 341 | Posted: 11:45 PM on October 11, 2002 | IP
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you mean me?


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No time for mediocrity.

People call me a Bible-Thumping reactionist ...and I'm proud to bear the name.
 


Posts: 293 | Posted: 12:12 AM on October 12, 2002 | IP
thistownwilleatu

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I'd like to express my sincere apologies sakata, i read your post hastily and missed the "t" in "can't", which turned it around 180 degrees.  I agree with you.


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"The greatest evil is not done in those sordid dens of evil that Dickens loved to paint ... but is conceived and ordered (moved, seconded, carried and minuted) in clear, carpeted, warmed, well-lighted offices, by quiet men with white collars and cut fingernails and smooth-shaven cheeks who do not need to raise their voices." - Thomas Merton

"I thank my God for every remembrance of you." - Paul
 


Posts: 341 | Posted: 12:24 AM on October 12, 2002 | IP
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seperation of church and state means that the state cannot, directly or indirectly, endorse a religion. By adding "under God" to a govt. document, we are doing just that. To quote from US v. Newdow (the 9th circuit pledge case), "To pledge allegience to the flag is not to describe america, but rather swear allegience to the values upon which it stands, liberty, justice, unity, and since 1954, monotheism."


-------
"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 2:36 PM on October 12, 2002 | IP
Sakata

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by expelling any sort of God, they are endorsing the religion of atheism, of which Newdow, just so happend to be.


-------
No time for mediocrity.

People call me a Bible-Thumping reactionist ...and I'm proud to bear the name.
 


Posts: 293 | Posted: 1:41 PM on October 13, 2002 | IP
thistownwilleatu

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Atheism is not a religion.  It's the abscence of one.


-------
"The greatest evil is not done in those sordid dens of evil that Dickens loved to paint ... but is conceived and ordered (moved, seconded, carried and minuted) in clear, carpeted, warmed, well-lighted offices, by quiet men with white collars and cut fingernails and smooth-shaven cheeks who do not need to raise their voices." - Thomas Merton

"I thank my God for every remembrance of you." - Paul
 


Posts: 341 | Posted: 10:47 PM on October 13, 2002 | IP
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and by omitting "under god" we are not endorsing atheism, but merely dodging the issue. to endorse atheism we'd say "under nothing"


-------
"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 8:03 PM on October 14, 2002 | IP
Sakata

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Here we go with why atheism is a religon debate, great, this is going to take a while so I'll have to get back to you...gr dumb art homework takes forever...


-------
No time for mediocrity.

People call me a Bible-Thumping reactionist ...and I'm proud to bear the name.
 


Posts: 293 | Posted: 11:54 PM on October 14, 2002 | IP
tsmith2771

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Who said atheism was a religion, atheism is the lack or belief that there is no religion.


-------
"I have no interest in making blacks equal to whites, they are of a lesser quality and this I am sure of." -Abraham Lincoln
"You don't win a war by dying for your country, you win a war by making the other person die for theirs." -General George Patton
 


Posts: 372 | Posted: 12:41 AM on October 15, 2002 | IP
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atheism is a belief, not the absence of one )although it is the absence of RELIGIOUS belief). Religious people say they BELIEVE there is a God. Atheists say they BELIEVE there is no God. Leaving out "under god" does not endorse atheism; rather, it is closer to a statement of agnosticism, which says, I don't know. Agnosticism is the absence of belief. It is simply not knowing. I am an agnostic, and that should be the position of government, to say, basically, government has no opinion; in America, religious or atheistic belief is the province of private individuals, not the state. That is the premise of separation of church and state, and so far, I think puritanical USA is far from it. Gays cannot get married or adopt. Smoking pot is illegal (I've never heard of someone smoking a joint and beating up his wife, unlike with some fully endorsed, socially acceptable substances I know...). The currency I use to buy porno says "In God We Trust" on it. What gives?


-------
Alex
 


Posts: 292 | Posted: 11:06 AM on October 17, 2002 | IP
Sakata

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yeah that doesnt make sense, porno should be banned, it leads to people like David Westerfeild (for those of you who arnt in SoCal he is some sicko who just got the death sentance for raping and murdering and eight year old girl and had a huge porno collection)


-------
No time for mediocrity.

People call me a Bible-Thumping reactionist ...and I'm proud to bear the name.
 


Posts: 293 | Posted: 01:23 AM on October 18, 2002 | IP
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I agree with you that pornography warps a person's sense of reality, but that is irrelevant.  When you say that all you're doing is re-enforcing seperation of govt. and religion.  


-------
"The greatest evil is not done in those sordid dens of evil that Dickens loved to paint ... but is conceived and ordered (moved, seconded, carried and minuted) in clear, carpeted, warmed, well-lighted offices, by quiet men with white collars and cut fingernails and smooth-shaven cheeks who do not need to raise their voices." - Thomas Merton

"I thank my God for every remembrance of you." - Paul
 


Posts: 341 | Posted: 02:50 AM on October 18, 2002 | IP
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so we should ban porno due to a few instances of it causing harm to others? That's like saying we should ban christianity because of the inquistion.

A few sickos using something that inherently is not bad in the wrong way doesn't mean we should criminalize that something. And neither porno nor christianity is inherently wrong, they just both can be used the wrong way.


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 1:18 PM on October 18, 2002 | IP
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sakata:
you need to learn about causality. Do you think David whatshisname would have been a model citizen if he didn't have porn to look at? what percentage of people who look at porn do you think end up raping and murdering people? by the way, i don't buy porn. I was just kidding around. I don't, not because it is wrong, but it just doesn't do anything for me.


-------
Alex
 


Posts: 292 | Posted: 05:18 AM on October 19, 2002 | IP
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So the guy had a huge porno collection, so what.  The average 25 year old male does too.


-------
"I have no interest in making blacks equal to whites, they are of a lesser quality and this I am sure of." -Abraham Lincoln
"You don't win a war by dying for your country, you win a war by making the other person die for theirs." -General George Patton
 


Posts: 372 | Posted: 7:26 PM on October 19, 2002 | IP
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WHat on Earth does porno have to do with separation of Church and State????
 


Posts: 30 | Posted: 10:24 AM on October 21, 2002 | IP
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Get used to the tangents.


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"The greatest evil is not done in those sordid dens of evil that Dickens loved to paint ... but is conceived and ordered (moved, seconded, carried and minuted) in clear, carpeted, warmed, well-lighted offices, by quiet men with white collars and cut fingernails and smooth-shaven cheeks who do not need to raise their voices." - Thomas Merton

"I thank my God for every remembrance of you." - Paul
 


Posts: 341 | Posted: 11:20 AM on October 21, 2002 | IP
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Porno has everything to do with separation of church and state. In this country, you are supposed to give logical, SECULAR reasons for inhibiting any certain freedom. For example, I used to be for the freedom to kill yourself (I mean straight suicide, not euthanasia or mercy killings, which are obviously different), but my dad (a shrink) convinced me that although at face value, yes, it is their body, but often they are so depressed, imbalanced, if saved, and treated, they are obviously happy they didn't do it. which makes sense. so suicide should not be a freedom. but porno? Prostitution? Homosexuality? what are logical, secular arguments against these?


-------
Alex
 


Posts: 292 | Posted: 01:51 AM on October 22, 2002 | IP
Sakata

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Homosexuality & Prostitution = Health Epidemic


-------
No time for mediocrity.

People call me a Bible-Thumping reactionist ...and I'm proud to bear the name.
 


Posts: 293 | Posted: 3:00 PM on November 2, 2002 | IP
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prostitution would not cause health epidemics if it was legalized (condom machines, testing, etc.). it's called regulation. there is a problem with AIDs in the homosexual community partly because 1. anal sex is easier to contract with and 2. social stigmas and barriers help foster a close-knit promiscious atmosphere for gays. point is, you are only describing the current situation, which is in no way a logical indictment of the phenomenons themselves. what we need is recognition of a bad situation and a fix, not making things more illegal. plus, if health is the argument for making it illegal, how about obesity? a lot more americans die of obesity-related heart disease than AIDS. by your logic we should make red meat illegal.


-------
Alex
 


Posts: 292 | Posted: 09:07 AM on November 3, 2002 | IP
Nova

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Hey does anyone keep up with the thing called the Supreme court? Well in the past it has rulled for anit-sodomy laws, specifically in 1986. And it is once again an issue of that magnitude, 25% of the states say that it sodomy(oral or anal sex) is illegal. Now in What will be a very interesting court case i believe Gamer v. Texas we will see it again. Our governemnt doean't have the right to enforce a specific religion but they do have the right to madate morals and they do all the time. And you argue that they only do that when it affects other people such as murder. Sodomy and pornography don't directly impede the rights of americans but it does cuase massive deterioration of the morality of the state in general. which will end up with a final result of more rapings(sp) and murders and general poor behavior, not that sodomy and poronography are the root of all that but they do play an undeniable roll in it.  


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One God; One Truth; One Way
 


Posts: 96 | Posted: 03:42 AM on December 10, 2002 | IP
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you are committing a naturalistic fallacy. Just because something is (in this case, the fact that the govt. can get rid of homosexual rights) does not mean it ought to be. Or would you hold that between 1896 when Plessy v. Ferguson was decided and 1954 when Brown v. Board of Education was it was perfectly legitimate to have segregation? The fact that the court rules in favor of something doesnt naturally make the extension that a) the court is right and b) we should use the power granted to us by the court. Read Justice Blackmun's dissent in Bowers to see why that particular ruling was so amazingly activist and illegitimate that it ranks with the Dred Scott case as one of the worst decisions in court history.
How on earth does legalizing sodomy translate to more rapes and murders? I would say the reverse is true, that since sodomy  is illegal now people who wish to partake in it are forced to turn to illegal means, which includes rape, while legalizing it would allow for it to be done legally and thus would remove that incentive.
But even characterizing homosexuality as immoral falls on two fronts. There are many ways of quantifying morality. Two which would make homosexuality immoral are a) whatever christianity says is wrong is wrong (banned by 1st amendment) and b) that whatever the majority feels is wrong is wrong, which is ridiculous, there needs to be more justification than just "many people think so." The second area on which it falters is the case of Loving v. Virginia. In that case, a district court judge used morality to uphold Virginia's law prohibting mixedrace marriages, which at the time many people supported. The supreme court reversed, holding that that argument was not enough to trample on peoples rights. Blackmun argued the same thing in his dissent in Bowers, and Burger and the rest of the majority dont address it adequatly.
Woo, that was long. to recap
1) saying that just because we can trample on homosexuals rights, we should, is a naturalistic fallacy.
2) sodomy wont lead to a massive crimewave
3) your legal argument and the one underpinning bowers is illegitimate and contrary to established case law. It was judicial activism pure and simple.


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 4:27 PM on December 10, 2002 | IP
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The seperation of curch of state was intended for the state protected from the church (which it is commonly used now as) it was intended for the church to be protected from the state. It is not even part of the constitution. Hears the story:
Thomas Jefferson was writing a letter to the priest who was scared that they were going to make a national religion. Jefferson was telling him there was a seperation of church and state. That term was 1st used in the case of Everest vs. Virgia's school board. [color=navy]
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 9:57 PM on December 10, 2002 | IP
Nova

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Ok DSA i will agree that the state ought not be involved in religion. It does no good to have religion forced on people. Sodomy itself may not lead to a massive crimewave because in general i fin homosexuals to be much kinder than heterosexaul poeple (generalization = bad but thats how i think), I believe that it is more the issue of morals and by allowing this it wil only degrade the scant morals possesed by americans today.
 I am impresed with your extiensive knowledge and thank you for the awesome insight. There is a limit to which governemnt has the right to control the people, and this is  a fine line between the two i think that i might have had my mind changed by you and the idea that God cleary gave us a choice to chose sin or not and it is difficult  for me to say that our government should too. what happiness does God get that gay people want to have sex but can't because it is illegal, the thought is just as bad as the action. He wants people to chose him not be forced to him.



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One God; One Truth; One Way
 


Posts: 96 | Posted: 10:24 PM on December 10, 2002 | IP
hooyah

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Church and State cannot and should not ever be completely separated.

Tell me this...if you took everything out of our Constitution that came from the "Church," what the heck would you have left?

Murder goes against the "church"
Rape....
Stealing....

I don't understand why if so many people believe that it is stupid to want to take "God" out of our Pledge, just for the sake of political correctness, why is it even an issue?

I am sorry, but when it comes to moral issues, I think that there should be a popular election held, and let the majority rule.

Is this a democracy, or what?


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A just government has nothing to fear from an armed citizenry!
 


Posts: 110 | Posted: 11:07 PM on December 10, 2002 | IP
dsadevil

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a democracy based on majority rule with minority rights. A majority believed that slavery was moral once. And segregation. And censoring "heretical" speech. And banning mixed race marriage. And burning witches. And...etc.

We don't allow for murder not because God says no, but because allowing the killing of people is detrimental to society. Secular humanists believe that too. And "no murder" isnt found in the constitution either, that is in state criminal statutes.
The establishment clause doesn't ban using religious based ideas to formulate public policy. What it does do is forbid laws based solely to promote a religious view and laws whose underpinnings are solely religious, without secular justification. Also, it forbids religious laws from being used if they violate someone else's (presumably from another religions) rights.


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 11:55 PM on December 10, 2002 | IP
Nova

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it states that they have protection for thier rights to Life(don't murder) Liberty (freedom = no slavery) and the pursuit of happiness(which was originally property but they didn't feel like including that so they chanegd it.) And happines bieng the right to pursue and embrace what ever religion you wish to. ass long as what you does not impede on someone elses basic rights then our governemnt as it is set up today should not control it.  


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One God; One Truth; One Way
 


Posts: 96 | Posted: 03:51 AM on December 12, 2002 | IP
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Life, Liberty, and pursuit of happiness is dec. of independence, not constitution.


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 4:28 PM on December 12, 2002 | IP
Nova

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Yes yes but it does give you a darn good example of the desires put forth by the founding fathers and what they believed a nation ought to be like. Well actually i believe that the dec. o' independance can be used as a referance to what they might have believed.
the preamble does include many of these same i deas so i don't think it is too much of a streacth to relate the two

We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.




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One God; One Truth; One Way
 


Posts: 96 | Posted: 10:06 AM on December 13, 2002 | IP
dsadevil

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It would be a good indicator, but it by itself cannot be used as precedence. Our nation is governed by whats in the constitution, not whats in other "important" works leading to it.


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 2:53 PM on December 13, 2002 | IP
Prometheus

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Right wing fundamentalists show by their acts that they are opposed to religious freedom.  Nothing will satisfy them but the incorporation of their own religious belief into the government.  Their fanaticism about their religion is far stronger than their sense of justice.  They support measures that promote their faith, with no respect to the rights of those who differ.  They push for the government to be changed to correspond with their religious views.

Our constitution, thanks to our founding fathers, is a purely non-religious document.  It declares that congresss shall make no laws respecting and establishment of religion, and that no religious test shall be required for any office.  In the treaty with Tripoli, which was signed by George Washington, it was declared that the United States Government is not founded on the Christian religion.

The right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness involves the right to have any belief.  Wheter that belief is true or false doesn't matter, you still have the right to the belief.  Everyone has the right to one god, or three, or 3000, or none at all; to worship or to not worship, whichever they desire.

Many people who are in favor of uniting church and state try to tell us there can be no morality without religion.  Nothing could be farther from the truth.  Morality does not depend upon any religious faith.  Throughout history nations rise and fall and religions grow and die out.  Even so, the morality of man remains essentially the same.  With all the social changes, morality is enduring as humanity itself.  Murder, rape, stealing where all considered wrong long before christianity even existed.

There can be no argument made that would justify the merging of church and state.  Every consideration of justice and equality denies it.  Every argument in favor of democracy is also an argument in favor of serparation of church and state.  Anyone who opposes separation of church and state, whether they realize it or not, is an enemy of freedom.


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"There are seven sins in the world: Wealth without work, Pleasure without conscience, Knowledge without character, Commerce without morality, Science without humanity, Worship without sacrifice, and politics without principle." --Mahatma Gandhi
 


Posts: 22 | Posted: 02:19 AM on December 14, 2002 | IP
    
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