PRO

Where Your Ideas can change Minds

Please visit our new forum at

http://www.4forums.com

CON


YouDebate.com Forum
» back to YouDebate.com
Register | Profile | Log In | Lost Password | Active Users | Help | Board Rules | Search | FAQ |
Custom Search
» You are not logged in.   log in | register

  YouDebate.com Forum
   Religon Debates
     Omniscience vs Omnipotence

Topic Jump
« Back | Next »
[ Single page for this topic ]
Forum moderated by: admin
    

    
ArcanaKnight

|     |       Report Post




Member
Post Score
Adjustment:
n/a

Rate this post:

Omnipotence and omniscience are not traits that a single being,even god, can have because it wouldn't be able to act outside what it foresaw, so there would be a limit on what it could do.  

Lets look at an example: god sees that he is going to part the red sea at a certain point in the future.  He can't not part the red sea because to do so would be outside his perfect vision of the future, so there is something which god can't do which means that he is not omnipotent.
 


Posts: 41 | Posted: 06:39 AM on September 11, 2008 | IP
dubie903

|     |       Report Post



Member
Post Score
Adjustment:
n/a

Rate this post:

Invalid argument.  Just because God knows exactly every detail of eternity, that does not mean He is not all powerful.  Gods power is all powerful and all of eternity is held by His power.  His forknowledge and all knowingness does not mean that He is now limited in power simply because He is unlimited in knowledge.  It simply adds to the fact that He is all powerful.  He could not be all powerful if He did not know what the future held or what exactly He was going to do and when He was going to do it.  If He was not all knowing, then time would leave Him fumbling around for solutions that He ultimatley did not know the outcome to which would not make Him all powerful.  Since though He does know all, He knows exactly how to display His power for the outcome to His ultimate purpose.


-------
Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.<br>
 


Posts: 43 | Posted: 1:37 PM on September 26, 2008 | IP
Obvious_child

|     |       Report Post



Member
Post Score
Adjustment:
n/a

Rate this post:

Uh, omniscience is not that big of a problem. Omnipotence, however, creates huge logical issues regarding such a Being. By the definition of Omnipotence, such a being should be capable of completely ceasing to exist in all forms and then existing again. That makes no sense whatsoever, but it falls within the capacity of all powerful. Omnipotence has always been plagued with issues of paradoxes. Effectively that means such a being is nonsensical and illogical.
 


Posts: 136 | Posted: 5:00 PM on September 27, 2008 | IP
Jabba66

|      |       Report Post




Member
Post Score
Adjustment:
n/a

Rate this post:

Quote from Obvious_child at 5:00 PM on September 27, 2008 :Omnipotence has always been plagued with issues of paradoxes. Effectively that means such a being is nonsensical and illogical.



Care to share a few?  Hmm, maybe you'll plague me with PMs about this and post ad homs, just like last time?

(Edited by Jabba66 9/29/2008 at 1:31 PM).


-------
Mikiyuna! Pasta mo rulya! Do bata gee mwaa tusawa!
 


Posts: 38 | Posted: 1:30 PM on September 29, 2008 | IP
dubie903

|     |       Report Post



Member
Post Score
Adjustment:
n/a

Rate this post:

Quote from Obvious_child at 5:00 PM on September 27, 2008 :
Uh, omniscience is not that big of a problem. Omnipotence, however, creates huge logical issues regarding such a Being. By the definition of Omnipotence, such a being should be capable of completely ceasing to exist in all forms and then existing again. That makes no sense whatsoever, but it falls within the capacity of all powerful. Omnipotence has always been plagued with issues of paradoxes. Effectively that means such a being is nonsensical and illogical.


I would rather have to argue that all powerful would better imply that one has power over all things.  An all powerful being can be overthrown by nothing that is.  Non existence is simply just that, non existent.  It is not a state that one omniscient eternal being would or could possibly ever put them self into, simply because non existence is non existent.  Your argument does not suggest an all powerful being to be "nonsensical" or "illogical", simply because non existence is non existent, it always has been and always will be.   There will always just simply be existence.  Non existence will never work, and will never be a state that one can be in.  

( I am not quite sure how that argument sounded to you, but in my head it all makes perfect sense what I am trying to say.)




-------
Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.<br>
 


Posts: 43 | Posted: 8:57 PM on October 2, 2008 | IP
Obvious_child

|     |       Report Post



Member
Post Score
Adjustment:
n/a

Rate this post:

Quote from Jabba66 at 1:30 PM on September 29, 2008 :

Care to share a few?  Hmm, maybe you'll plague me with PMs about this and post ad homs, just like last time?


I believe you have mistaken me for someone else.

And I already gave you several paradoxes.

Such a being should be capable of completely ceasing to exist in all forms and then existing again. That makes no sense. But is within its capacity.


 


Posts: 136 | Posted: 11:22 PM on October 3, 2008 | IP
Obvious_child

|     |       Report Post



Member
Post Score
Adjustment:
n/a

Rate this post:

Quote from dubie903 at 8:57 PM on October 2, 2008 :

( I am not quite sure how that argument sounded to you, but in my head it all makes perfect sense what I am trying to say.)


I have no idea if you are right or wrong. Frankly, that didn't make much sense. Please formulate your thoughts into coherent english and repost them.


 


Posts: 136 | Posted: 11:25 PM on October 3, 2008 | IP
ArcanaKnight

|     |       Report Post




Member
Post Score
Adjustment:
n/a

Rate this post:

He could not be all powerful if He did not know what the future held or what exactly He was going to do and when He was going to do it.  If He was not all knowing, then time would leave Him fumbling around for solutions that He ultimatley did not know the outcome to which would not make Him all powerful.  Since though He does know all, He knows exactly how to display His power for the outcome to His ultimate purpose.

What you're describing is omniscience, not omnipotence.  An omnipotent being wouldn't fumble around for a solution ever, they would just make reality in the present whatever they wanted it to be; if something went wrong in the future they would be able to correct it at that time.  He would still be omnipotent even if he didn't know what he might do in the future, that's one of the reasons why omnipotence and omniscience are two different concepts.

I would rather have to argue that all powerful would better imply that one has power over all things.

That's not really the point.  Omnipotence means having unlimited power, but an omniscient being wouldn't be able to act against their perfect vision of the future, so their power would be limited in some way.  It doesn't matter what it wants or doesn't want to do, it just wouldn't be able to act against it's vision of the future.

An all powerful being can be overthrown by nothing that is.

Well, if a being were significantly more powerful or advanced than others (even if it wasn't omnipotent) it wouldn't be able to be overturned either.  For example, if an incredibly advanced alien being came to earth we wouldn't be able to overturn it if it wanted to control us, and it could seem to have god-like powers.
 


Posts: 41 | Posted: 03:50 AM on October 4, 2008 | IP
Jabba66

|      |       Report Post




Member
Post Score
Adjustment:
n/a

Rate this post:

Quote from Obvious_child at 11:22 PM on October 3, 2008 :

I believe you have mistaken me for someone else.P


Unless it is mere coincedence that there's an OC on 4forums, I think my assumption is accurate.  I thought you'd recognize me by now, but maybe I'm not the first you did this to.

And I already gave you several paradoxes.

Such a being should be capable of completely ceasing to exist in all forms and then existing again. That makes no sense. But is within its capacity.




I see the only paradoxes you can find are in the word rather than the being.  But just for your info, omniscience is the capacity to know everything.  Hmm, maybe the problem is with your interpretation of the word?  You interpret anything as literally... well, anything.  Your posts remind me of the old atheist wisecrack "If God can do anything, can he make a rock so heavy that he can't lift it?"  This is just a wisecrack, but it's used purely as a mockery.  You'll have to try harder.





-------
Mikiyuna! Pasta mo rulya! Do bata gee mwaa tusawa!
 


Posts: 38 | Posted: 1:09 PM on October 6, 2008 | IP
Obvious_child

|     |       Report Post



Member
Post Score
Adjustment:
n/a

Rate this post:

Quote from Jabba66 at 1:09 PM on October 6, 2008 :

Unless it is mere coincedence that there's an OC on 4forums, I think my assumption is accurate.  I thought you'd recognize me by now, but maybe I'm not the first you did this to.


I frankly have no idea who you are.

I see the only paradoxes you can find are in the word rather than the being.


Which is the point. A non-omnipotent God wouldn't have such logical contradictions. Non-Biblical Gods aren't all powerful and thus don't suffer from the paradox issues of omnipotence. Btw, we're discussing omnipotence, not omniscience.

Your posts remind me of the old atheist wisecrack "If God can do anything, can he make a rock so heavy that he can't lift it?"  This is just a wisecrack, but it's used purely as a mockery.  You'll have to try harder.


Not really. Omnipotence is a paradoxical trait independent of whatever being has it. If one accepts that their God has such a trait, then they must logically accept that such a God is not only illogical but nonsensical. That of course doesn't mean it can't exist, only that it isn't logically coherent. I never argued that God can't exist for such a reason. Only that a logical, sensical God cannot exist with the trait of omnipotence.
 


Posts: 136 | Posted: 6:53 PM on October 6, 2008 | IP
dubie903

|     |       Report Post



Member
Post Score
Adjustment:
n/a

Rate this post:

Quote from ArcanaKnight at 03:50 AM on October 4, 2008 :

I would rather have to argue that all powerful would better imply that one has power over all things.

That's not really the point.  Omnipotence means having unlimited power, but an omniscient being wouldn't be able to act against their perfect vision of the future, so their power would be limited in some way.  It doesn't matter what it wants or doesn't want to do, it just wouldn't be able to act against it's vision of the future.



Revelation 19:6 After that I heard what sounded like the shout of a vast throng, like the boom of many pounding waves, and like the roar of terrific {and} mighty peals of thunder, exclaiming, Hallelujah (praise the Lord)! For now the Lord our God the Omnipotent (the All-Ruler) reigns!

The scripture here uses the word omnipotent or it can also mean Almighty.  It shows us that God is all powerful and has power over everything, but it does not mean He has the ability to do anything, because in the book of Hebrews it states that it is impossible for God to lie.

Hebrews 6:18 so that by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have taken refuge would have strong encouragement to take hold of the hope set before us.

So how can it be impossible to do anything, for one who is omnipotent.  God as omnipotent is not just simply one who does anything, but rather one who has complete rule over everything He does.

Omnipotent
OMNIP'OTENT, a. [supra.]

1. Almighty; possessing unlimited power; all powerful. The being that can create worlds must be omnipotent.

2. Having unlimited power of a particular kind; as omnipotent love.


Now for Him to have a full knowledge of everything He will do, in no way robs Him of any power at all.  It simply adds to it.  He has power over all and knows absolutely all things.



-------
Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.<br>
 


Posts: 43 | Posted: 12:32 AM on October 24, 2008 | IP
ArcanaKnight

|     |       Report Post




Member
Post Score
Adjustment:
n/a

Rate this post:

I'm not sure you even read what you write anymore.  You just gave another example of something god can't do, and if god can't do something it means his power is limited, so he isn't omnipotent.

A truly omniscient god isn't able to go against something he foresaw which means he isn't truly omnipotent because his power is limited.
 


Posts: 41 | Posted: 08:44 AM on October 24, 2008 | IP
dubie903

|     |       Report Post



Member
Post Score
Adjustment:
n/a

Rate this post:

Quote from ArcanaKnight at 08:44 AM on October 24, 2008 :


A truly omniscient god isn't able to go against something he foresaw which means he isn't truly omnipotent because his power is limited.



I still do not see how your argument of an all knowing being limits their power.  Knowing everything that is going to happen, does not limit power.  If God did not know everything than how exactly would he know if He is the All powerful.  How can any being claim to have all the power over everything and not posses a knowledge over everything, limited knowledge would default the omnipotent to a limit of power that only reacts to what is going on in the present without fully comprehending the results.  Unlimited power is not just the ability to do anything (from a Biblical perspective, the Bible claims that God is omnipotent, yet it also claims it is impossible for Him to lie) , going from a Biblical perspective I would rather have to argue being omnipotent is the inability to be conquered by anything.  There is nothing that can overpower God and nothing that will ever be able to overpower God.  A limited amount of knowledge would make God limited in power.  His knowledge would not limit His power, I really believe that being omniscient adds to the fact that one is omnipotent.  Knowledge is power.




-------
Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.<br>
 


Posts: 43 | Posted: 9:51 PM on October 24, 2008 | IP
ArcanaKnight

|     |       Report Post




Member
Post Score
Adjustment:
n/a

Rate this post:

Limited knowledge wouldn't limit a being's power in any way.  Just because it wouldn't know what happens down the line doesn't mean that it prevents it from being able to make a planet on a whim or any other feat of incredible power.  It isn't necessary to know all the possible repercussions of an action to perform that action.  That is why omnipotence and omniscience are two separate concepts.
 


Posts: 41 | Posted: 01:37 AM on October 25, 2008 | IP
    
[ Single page for this topic ]

Topic Jump
« Back | Next »
[ Single page for this topic ]
Forum moderated by: admin
    

Topic options: Lock topic | Unlock topic | Make Topic Sticky | Remove Sticky | Delete thread | Move thread | Merge thread

 

© YouDebate.com
Powered by: ScareCrow version 2.12
© 2001 Jonathan Bravata. All rights reserved.