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hooyah

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I should start by saying that I do believe in God.

My argument is this:
Why would God, knowing that, in the end, 99% of people would fall short of what Christianity defines as worthiness of going to Heaven.

Also, If Hell exists, (I mean, a burning lake of fire, in which you burn forever, incapable of dying and the flame never being quenched!) it seems that God would have given us more than a book (Bible) to deter us from such a horrible place.
Maybe He could come down from Heaven once in awhile and visit with us, giving us REAL proof that Hell is real, and that if we don't live "right" that's where we're headed.

I think that the idea of Hell goes against everything that God is.
He is compassionate, why would He send people to a burning lake of fire?
He is all-knowing, again, knowing ahead of time how many people would fail.

I am just wondering what purpose does Hell serve? IF it exists?
What about people who have never heard about "Jesus" and "The cross", can you imagine what they think when they wake up in a burning lake of fire?  What purpose would throwing them into Hell serve?

I think that Hell, as described by Christianity, is unlikely.


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A just government has nothing to fear from an armed citizenry!
 


Posts: 110 | Posted: 7:05 PM on December 9, 2002 | IP
fallingupwards84

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here is what i believe:  i think that when non-Christians die, God will give them a second chance to repent and accept Him. if they are stupid enough to deny him after that, then they dont deserve to be in heaven


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 8:49 PM on December 9, 2002 | IP
thistownwilleatu

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I believe in hell, but not the burning lake of fire and brimstone.  I believe that hell is a complete absence of God and thus the worship of ourselves, our "false selves" or the people that we are outside of God.  As Thomas Merton puts it "the worship of our ourselves is to worship nothing.  And the worship of nothing is hell."


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"The greatest evil is not done in those sordid dens of evil that Dickens loved to paint ... but is conceived and ordered (moved, seconded, carried and minuted) in clear, carpeted, warmed, well-lighted offices, by quiet men with white collars and cut fingernails and smooth-shaven cheeks who do not need to raise their voices." - Thomas Merton

"I thank my God for every remembrance of you." - Paul
 


Posts: 341 | Posted: 9:28 PM on December 9, 2002 | IP
Maynard

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i agree with thistown, hell is just an absence of god.  and for the ones that have no belief, in my religion, we have baptisms for the dead, it gives that individual a chance.


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I love my country, but fear my government.

your friendly ultra-conservative patriot.
 


Posts: 270 | Posted: 10:18 PM on December 9, 2002 | IP
fallingupwards84

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Christ described hell as a place of "weeping and knashing of teeth"


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 10:39 PM on December 9, 2002 | IP
Maynard

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ill admit that i know very little about religion, havent been to church in many, many years.  all i can say about the religion i belong to is what i am told by my wife.


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I love my country, but fear my government.

your friendly ultra-conservative patriot.
 


Posts: 270 | Posted: 10:46 PM on December 9, 2002 | IP
dsadevil

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So falling, God basically threatens the dead with "accept me or burn for eternity?" How sweet. Gotta love that justice.


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 11:47 PM on December 9, 2002 | IP
thistownwilleatu

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Ok, we're dumb, you're smart....what do you think happens after we die?  It seems that in all other forums you feel comfortable giving your beliefs and opinions but in the religion department you only attack others.  What do you believe?  Enlighten us, so that we may return the favor and criticize what you believe.


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"The greatest evil is not done in those sordid dens of evil that Dickens loved to paint ... but is conceived and ordered (moved, seconded, carried and minuted) in clear, carpeted, warmed, well-lighted offices, by quiet men with white collars and cut fingernails and smooth-shaven cheeks who do not need to raise their voices." - Thomas Merton

"I thank my God for every remembrance of you." - Paul
 


Posts: 341 | Posted: 01:15 AM on December 10, 2002 | IP
AlexanderTheGreat

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I don't worship anything now, and if this is Hell, I say "big whoop!" it's not all that bad. I just hope there's lots of cute boyz in my layer of Hell...

and if I die and meet God (the God as you describe), and he said accept me or face eternity of "gnashing of teeth"...I'd spit in his face and tell him where to shove it, cause I would never worship someone who valued the worship of himself over helping others, or who punished people for not believing in him or worshipping him. That God is a scumbag.

lemme ask a question. why in Christianity do you needed the added incentive of avoiding Hell to be a good person? I am a good person (or try to be at any rate, meaning be kind, help others...I guess if you think a homosexual can't be good by definition than I can't change your mind anyway), and I don't believe in anything besides the satisfaction i get from good deeds. some other religions, mostly Eastern, don't threaten punishment. for example, Mahayanan Buddhism (Greater Vehicle Buddhism) grew out of a belief that the earlier Theravadan Buddhism (Lesser Vehicle) was too selfish. Theravadan was concerned with arantship, or sainthood, that is the achievement of self-enlightenment and subsequent escape from the cycle into Nibbana (Nirvana for westerners). Mahayanan says the Bodhisvatta (buddha-to-be) should not escape, but instead, after enlightenment, turn back and help diminish the suffering of others. now, i am not sure, but i don't think there is any added bonus for doing this, nor any punishment for leaping into nibbana without helping others. it's just a suggestion. ah, Buddhism...it's my favorite relgion.
a buddhist sect in hawaii bitched out the Mormon Church for trying to represent all religion in its opposition to gay rights. I love the Buddha of Compassion. he and Jesus might've been buds.




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Alex
 


Posts: 292 | Posted: 02:23 AM on December 10, 2002 | IP
fallingupwards84

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you go ahead and do that alex


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 02:30 AM on December 10, 2002 | IP
Nova

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  It is true God is our ultimate destroyer not Satan, but in the bible and specifically the new testament Love and Grace are the emphasis. No amount of good deeds will get you into heaven and although it tis a sin to be homosexual(alex) God loves you just the same as he loved Peter or John. We are all sinners and through God's amazing and perfect grace we are saved. There is no doubt that in the bible there is a heven and hell but also there is a another place refered to as Hades or the NeverGloom. It seems to be a place that acts as a holding tank until the judgment i think it might be found in Jude if you would like to look it up. This is a place where the nephilim are sent after commiting the sin spoken of in Genisis 6 where fallen angels cohabitated with the daughters of men creating giants or men of renown. So yes my two cents says that Hell does exist, and i am just as deserving of that end as anyone else but praise God he has shwon mercy unto us and given us his Son Jesus.


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One God; One Truth; One Way
 


Posts: 96 | Posted: 03:17 AM on December 10, 2002 | IP
dsadevil

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my opinion on religion is precisely what alex said, any religion that puts loyalty and worship above good deeds and justice is unworthy of my support. My belief on heaven and hell is basically summed up in this jewish religious proverb "We believe that the RIGHTOUS (emphasis added) of ALL nations are worthy of immortality. There are many mountains, and all of them reach for the stars." If there is a hell, in my mind it is reserved for people who do more wrong than right, not people who dont kowtow to particular religious beliefs.


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 4:15 PM on December 10, 2002 | IP
hooyah

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Nova, what about the people who have never heard the name, "Jesus."

Do they die and find themselves burning in a lake of fire just because they never had a chance to know the "right" way to live.
A God that stands for Compassion would not allow such a thing to happen.


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A just government has nothing to fear from an armed citizenry!
 


Posts: 110 | Posted: 10:38 PM on December 10, 2002 | IP
fallingupwards84

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actually, the Bible says that those who do not have an opportunity to hear the gospel will not have to suffer through hell


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 10:53 PM on December 10, 2002 | IP
madbilly

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The bible also never says anything about burning in hell forever "the wicked shall be destroyed" "for god so loved the world that he gave...that whosoever believe in him shall not PERISH but have everlasting life". can anyone show me where it says that you burn in hell for ever instead of just being cast into hell to burn and die and that be the end of you.


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my name is madbilly....what did you expect me to be happy when my name says Mad in it...
 


Posts: 451 | Posted: 11:40 PM on December 10, 2002 | IP
Nova

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i agree completly with Falling on  what he said to Hooyah. and you could say that although it is a parable the story of Lazurus and the Rich man in luke 16: 19-31 as evidence of a really really hot place that just doesn't seem to burn you up. Enjoy


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One God; One Truth; One Way
 


Posts: 96 | Posted: 01:31 AM on December 11, 2002 | IP
tsmith2771

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My version of heaven is a huge horse farm.  My version of hell since I do believe in it and have been there, is academic part of college.

But in all honesty I don't think hell is a burning lake or anything like that but your worse fear replayed over and over again.


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"I have no interest in making blacks equal to whites, they are of a lesser quality and this I am sure of." -Abraham Lincoln
"You don't win a war by dying for your country, you win a war by making the other person die for theirs." -General George Patton
 


Posts: 372 | Posted: 04:20 AM on December 11, 2002 | IP
hooyah

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Burning lake or not....it seems that God would give us more proof if such a place exists.

And you'll have to tell me where in the Bible it says "that those who do not have an opportunity to hear the gospel will not have to suffer through hell."

What it does say is that the ONLY way into Heaven is through Jesus Christ.
If it weren't for this one statement, I'd have no problem becoming a Christian.


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A just government has nothing to fear from an armed citizenry!
 


Posts: 110 | Posted: 12:31 AM on December 12, 2002 | IP
meditate

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Quote from hooyah at 12:31 AM on December 12, 2002 :
Burning lake or not....it seems that God would give us more proof if such a place exists.


it seems that God would give us more proof if HE exists, but he don't. Something we all have to live with.



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Meditate
 


Posts: 33 | Posted: 02:25 AM on December 12, 2002 | IP
Nova

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would someone get this man the vers i think that either falling or thistown knows, but alas i can't remeber where it is.


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One God; One Truth; One Way
 


Posts: 96 | Posted: 04:07 AM on December 12, 2002 | IP
thistownwilleatu

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If God just came down, said here I am and started popping off miracles right and left, where would the cornerstone of Christianity be?  Who needs faith when God is staring back at you?  

Oh and what verse are you talking about Nova?


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"The greatest evil is not done in those sordid dens of evil that Dickens loved to paint ... but is conceived and ordered (moved, seconded, carried and minuted) in clear, carpeted, warmed, well-lighted offices, by quiet men with white collars and cut fingernails and smooth-shaven cheeks who do not need to raise their voices." - Thomas Merton

"I thank my God for every remembrance of you." - Paul
 


Posts: 341 | Posted: 12:07 PM on December 12, 2002 | IP
beavischrist

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I do not believe in hell, but if it and the christian god exist I would rather go there than to the feet of an egomaniac. Some of you described hell as almost humanism. I already worship man over dietiy.
 


Posts: 193 | Posted: 1:56 PM on December 12, 2002 | IP
beavischrist

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As for argument that god would not create those he knows are going to hell, I completely agree with it. The counter argument of "free will" is completely useless but is also the only argument I've heard as a counter. If a person is not created yet and god knows all ends, free will doesn't come into it yet and god can just create a different person who will not go to hell. If the point of life is to worship god then god wants to be worshiped. Why would he play such games with peoples souls instead of just creating people to worship him (which would include making his presence known through more than an ancient rag)?
 


Posts: 193 | Posted: 1:59 PM on December 12, 2002 | IP
hooyah

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I don't know.
Maybe we haven't yet been given the "ultimate" proof that He exists.
I think that maybe, assuming that there is an eternal 'burning' place, God is waiting for the right time to "reveal" himself; Perhaps this will take place with the Rapture.
But still, that doesn't do much good to those who have already died.
If there is no Hell, and I knew for sure, then I would have no problem with the whole "faith" thing, because there would be no punishment per se, but instead those who had the faith would be REWARDED, and those who didn't just wouldn't be rewarded.
I could live with either option, myself.


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A just government has nothing to fear from an armed citizenry!
 


Posts: 110 | Posted: 9:00 PM on December 12, 2002 | IP
beavischrist

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If you believe only to avoid punishment, not only are you a small man, but any god worth his salt would see right through such a facade.
 


Posts: 193 | Posted: 02:03 AM on December 13, 2002 | IP
thistownwilleatu

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Wow beavis, we agree.


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"The greatest evil is not done in those sordid dens of evil that Dickens loved to paint ... but is conceived and ordered (moved, seconded, carried and minuted) in clear, carpeted, warmed, well-lighted offices, by quiet men with white collars and cut fingernails and smooth-shaven cheeks who do not need to raise their voices." - Thomas Merton

"I thank my God for every remembrance of you." - Paul
 


Posts: 341 | Posted: 1:00 PM on December 13, 2002 | IP
fallingupwards84

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heres what Jesus had to say about judgement in Matthew 25:31-46:

"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'
"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'
"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'
"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'
"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'
"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'
"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 6:07 PM on December 13, 2002 | IP
fallingupwards84

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that last post was for someone who believes in the Bible. i'm not trying to use bible verses to convince non-christians


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 6:07 PM on December 13, 2002 | IP
hooyah

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Falling,

What if you do all of those things:
"For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.' "
--but you don't profess Jesus as the Son of God?

Do you go straight to Hell?
Why does one part of the Bible say, "The only way to the Father is through Me (Jesus)."
And then the verses that you posted clearly state that going to Heaven is based on your works?


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A just government has nothing to fear from an armed citizenry!
 


Posts: 110 | Posted: 8:16 PM on December 13, 2002 | IP
beavischrist

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That's what reasonable people call a contradiction and devout christians call a mystery of god. Actually, you'll probably be accused of taking it out of context, which is the most frequently used tactic for arguing away the bibles repeated contractions. Dan Barker wrote a good chapter on the tactic in his book Losing Faith in Faith.
 


Posts: 193 | Posted: 8:20 PM on December 13, 2002 | IP
fallingupwards84

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what Jesus is saying here is that just because Christians are forgiven does not mean that they have a free ride to do whatever they want. works are still important. but we are saved by faith


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 10:47 PM on December 13, 2002 | IP
dsadevil

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that's not how i interpret it. I didn't see a caveat on the "Goat" side "this is for folks who were unjust. Oh, and just non-christians, you go here too." Didn't see that mentioned anywhere. You are creating a caveat that isn't there. Beavis is right, its a contradiction between two competing "methods" of getting into heaven that are opposites. They can't both be true.


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 11:31 PM on December 13, 2002 | IP
Pie

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"and if I die and meet God (the God as you describe), and he said accept me or face eternity of "gnashing of teeth"...I'd spit in his face and tell him where to shove it, cause I would never worship someone who valued the worship of himself over helping others, or who punished people for not believing in him or worshipping him. That God is a scumbag."
Mmmhmm. So, he created mankind, the Earth, the stars, the planets, the universe, and he doesn't deserve recognition for it.

"Why would he play such games with peoples souls instead of just creating people to worship him " He wants mankind to love him, and if it's programmed, that isn't real love.

"If a person is not created yet and god knows all ends, free will doesn't come into it yet " God knows what events/whatnot will happen, but till then and through it, we can do what we want. Ex, the AntiChrist will come and decieve humans, but exactly how he goes about that is his choice. There are few essentials.




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A Mac is to a PC is what a Lamborghini is to a Honda Civic.
 


Posts: 202 | Posted: 3:22 PM on December 14, 2002 | IP
beavischrist

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An omnipotant being who creates stuff is not impressive.

A god that wants love is not a perfect god. Want is lack and lack is imperfection.

You did not actually reply to the last argument, you just restated the freewill argument. We have choice but god knows what we will choose.
 


Posts: 193 | Posted: 3:57 PM on December 14, 2002 | IP
Pie

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God does not know what we will choose, he knows what will happen. Ex, when reading a book, you can skip ahead to the end and find out how it's going to finish, but not how it's going to get there.

"An omnipotant being who creates stuff is not impressive." I suppose everyone's entitled to an opinion.

"A god that wants love is not a perfect god. Want is lack and lack is imperfection." God does not lack love. There are millions of people on this Earth who worship him.






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A Mac is to a PC is what a Lamborghini is to a Honda Civic.
 


Posts: 202 | Posted: 8:00 PM on December 14, 2002 | IP
beavischrist

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How can you argue an omniscient being does not know what we will choose? You're saying that he knows the present and the very end but nothing in between?

Sigh. If he didn't need love he would not have created any toys in the first place. There is no real love for him because he creates things that either will or will not love him and he knows which is which.
 


Posts: 193 | Posted: 8:25 PM on December 14, 2002 | IP
Pie

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"How can you argue an omniscient being does not know what we will choose? "Because what we may choose can change every second.

"You're saying that he knows the present and the very end but nothing in between?" Apparently, you didn't read my post.

"If he didn't need love he would not have created any toys in the first place. " When a parent buys their kid a toy on Christmas, the kid doesn't need it in order to be happy, but it is something nice to have around.


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A Mac is to a PC is what a Lamborghini is to a Honda Civic.
 


Posts: 202 | Posted: 8:33 PM on December 14, 2002 | IP
beavischrist

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You apparently don't understand the idea of omniscience. And a better analogy would be how a parent generally has a child ebcause it will fill something missing in their lives.
 


Posts: 193 | Posted: 01:50 AM on December 15, 2002 | IP
AlexanderTheGreat

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I don't believe in free will. Everything is predetermined. I just typed the letter "a". if we could go back in time as observers, why would i ever type the letter "b" instead? I am just like a tree bent by the wind, or a water rippled by a falling rock. I am a system of chemical reactions responding to external stimuli.


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Alex
 


Posts: 292 | Posted: 11:39 AM on December 15, 2002 | IP
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I agree with that. But it's not really a predetermined fate as much as a future that has to be. Probably just semantics. But yeah, if we relive the same experience we will always choose the same action, unless our environment changes, which is unlikely because everything else would also do exactly as it has.
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 1:35 PM on December 15, 2002 | IP
Pie

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Okay, I'm aware that I'm switching tack faster than HCI, but...
". We have choice but god knows what we will choose." God does not condemn us to hell, it is our choice. He may very well know where we are going, but it isn't His problem.
"a parent generally has a child ebcause it will fill something missing in their lives." God already had children, so to speak, in the form of angels. Hey, if you've got infinite time on your hands and a heavenly kingdom, why not create mankind? You know, something to pass the time.

Meh.




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Posts: 202 | Posted: 2:32 PM on December 15, 2002 | IP
beavischrist

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He creates creatures condemned to hell. Stop being dense and think about it. And by your victory cry of "meh" I can see you don't buy your own argument.
 


Posts: 193 | Posted: 3:38 PM on December 15, 2002 | IP
beavischrist

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Please address the issue of omniscience. Does god not know everything or do you retract your previous argument?

Of course if you think god doesn't know everything I'll have to pull the ontilogical argument on you (not that I buy it anyway).
 


Posts: 193 | Posted: 3:40 PM on December 15, 2002 | IP
Pie

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God does know everything, my previous argument was messed. Does he create creatures he knows will go to Hell? I suppose so. Does he make them go to Hell? No. It is what they choose and how they live that brings it down upon 'em.


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A Mac is to a PC is what a Lamborghini is to a Honda Civic.
 


Posts: 202 | Posted: 5:56 PM on December 15, 2002 | IP
beavischrist

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He chose to create them. Being all powerful and all knowing, he is completely responsible for anything he creates as he knows exactly how everything will play out
 


Posts: 193 | Posted: 8:44 PM on December 15, 2002 | IP
beavischrist

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And what about god's motivation to create us? You might as well cop out of that argument now with the usual "he acts in mysterious ways" tactic.
 


Posts: 193 | Posted: 8:46 PM on December 15, 2002 | IP
Pie

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"He chose to create them. " And they chose how to live their lives.

"And what about god's motivation to create us? "
By Me: "Hey, if you've got infinite time on your hands and a heavenly kingdom, why not create mankind? You know, something to pass the time."



(Edited by Pie 12/15/2002 at 8:56 PM).


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A Mac is to a PC is what a Lamborghini is to a Honda Civic.
 


Posts: 202 | Posted: 8:55 PM on December 15, 2002 | IP
beavischrist

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But he created things that would choose to go against his will. It's like a carpenter who makes a chair that he knows will break then blames the chair when it breaks. God creates our free will. Anything you can think of that gives us free will, god created. There is your problem, god is only finding fault in himself.

I didn't think you seriously wanted god got bored to be your argument. The human qualities you give to your god are very silly.
 


Posts: 193 | Posted: 11:21 PM on December 15, 2002 | IP
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God knows that there will be those of us who will not obey him. He does not force us away from him, he trys to ge us to follow him via the Bible. He created the ones of us he knows will go to hell. To say he's blaming his "chairs" for not holding up despite thats what he made them to do is absurd. He made us to work properly, but most of us were attacked by termites, even after we had been equipped with bug spray.


 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 12:21 AM on December 16, 2002 | IP
beavischrist

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Wrong. He knew we would fail so he obviously didn't equip us correctly. You manage to ignore his omnipotence and omnicience. If such a being existed everything and anything would be merely a reflection of him.
 


Posts: 193 | Posted: 12:32 AM on December 16, 2002 | IP
    
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