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Pie

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Well, onto a different idea, let's take a look at omniscience. Infinite knowledge. God has infinite knowledge. Thing is, infinite knowledge may not be knowledge of the future, but knowledge of all things happened, up to the moment. If something has not happened yet, how can it be known of? There are things like dentist appointments, ect, that we know of because it is what we have planned, but what goes on until that point is in the air. Hence the end of time as we know it. God has it planned, but what we do, how we live, is up to us and God may not be able to see it coming as it is in the future, which hasn't happened yet, so no knowledge of it would be available. "All knowing" is exactly that, all knowing. All is everything, but what hasn't happened yet is nothing, and is thus excluded until it happens and becomes something.
So, God may very well not know what is going to happen, who is gonna make it, ect, until it happens.

I'll meh again, it presents a nice finish to a post.


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A Mac is to a PC is what a Lamborghini is to a Honda Civic.
 


Posts: 202 | Posted: 01:12 AM on December 16, 2002 | IP
beavischrist

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So by the word "all" you mean "not all"?
 


Posts: 193 | Posted: 02:34 AM on December 16, 2002 | IP
Pie

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All is all that is. Nothing isn't. What has yet to happen is currently nothing, and not a part of all.


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A Mac is to a PC is what a Lamborghini is to a Honda Civic.
 


Posts: 202 | Posted: 7:02 PM on December 16, 2002 | IP
beavischrist

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If you insist, but I can certainly envision a god who knows all (meaning all as in all past present future, this dimension, that dimension, you know, the real defenition of all). St. Anselm would have a thing or two to say to you.

Plus the fact that you flip flop on this issue to whatever best supports your argument is disheartening. You'd rather take the power of knowing all away from your god than to face him being a sadist who creates people only to burn forever.
 


Posts: 193 | Posted: 12:42 AM on December 17, 2002 | IP
Pie

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Knowing all, it appears, is a matter of opinion. All is all that is. What isn't is nothing, therefor knowledge of this is nothing, not knowledge of all.
He may know the future, but as the future is nothing until it passes, see last.


"You'd rather take the power of knowing all away from your god than to face him being a sadist who creates people only to burn forever." Well...duh. Course he isn't, but that is true.

"Plus the fact that you flip flop on this issue to whatever best supports your argument is disheartening. " As I'm sure everyone reading this has noticed (you are out there?), I'm not much of a religious debator, and scrambling for any available footholds.



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A Mac is to a PC is what a Lamborghini is to a Honda Civic.
 


Posts: 202 | Posted: 01:05 AM on December 17, 2002 | IP
beavischrist

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Meh.
 


Posts: 193 | Posted: 02:17 AM on December 17, 2002 | IP
AlexanderTheGreat

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pie...

your argument sounds like serious crap. i think even most religious people disagree with your over that definition. most Christians I've talked to believe God know's everything that has happened, is happening, and will happen.

and even if you believe in free will (which I don't), how do you explain the suffering that comes about from, for example, natural disasters?


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Alex
 


Posts: 292 | Posted: 10:48 AM on December 17, 2002 | IP
locagirl

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i dont believe in any type of afterlife. in other words, no heaven, no hell
 


Posts: 60 | Posted: 1:14 PM on December 17, 2002 | IP
Pie

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"how do you explain the suffering that comes about from, for example, natural disasters? "
So, do you believe that we should have no laws or criminal code? If it ins't the crooks fault, merely fate pushing them, why should they be punished for something they have no control over?

(Edited by Pie 12/18/2002 at 01:52 AM).


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A Mac is to a PC is what a Lamborghini is to a Honda Civic.
 


Posts: 202 | Posted: 12:15 AM on December 18, 2002 | IP
Pie

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And also, the Earth is in constant movement, which brings around natural disasters. As far as we know, the water in floods, snow in avalanches, mud in slides, ect, have no minds of their own nd therefore cannot choose not to do whatever happens and cause the suffering you mentioned.


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A Mac is to a PC is what a Lamborghini is to a Honda Civic.
 


Posts: 202 | Posted: 7:23 PM on December 18, 2002 | IP
fallingupwards84

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you're right alex. most christians, including me, believe God know's everything in the past, present , and future. pie, you cant put limits on God


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 3:49 PM on December 22, 2002 | IP
Pie

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Okay, okay, God has knowledge of the future. But, as the future has not happened yet, there is nothing, and God's knowledge of the future would be knowledge of nothing.


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A Mac is to a PC is what a Lamborghini is to a Honda Civic.
 


Posts: 202 | Posted: 4:11 PM on December 22, 2002 | IP
AlexanderTheGreat

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now that's just plain stupid. it's like u figured out u were wrong, but haven't figured out WHY u were wrong yet. God knows what is going to happen in the future - that is what people mean by knowledge of the future. Christians believe in free will, but that God knows what choice you WILL make before you make them. Got it?

i believe there is no free will. I believe in determinism.


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Alex
 


Posts: 292 | Posted: 12:38 AM on December 23, 2002 | IP
Pie

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"Got it?" Nope. Anything else?


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A Mac is to a PC is what a Lamborghini is to a Honda Civic.
 


Posts: 202 | Posted: 01:49 AM on December 23, 2002 | IP
hooyah

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To get back on track here, we're debating the existence of Hell.

Pie, the points you are making only make sense if there IS NOT A HELL!

If God created us knowing that most of us would fail, and that a small minority of us (saints) would be rewarded with Heaven, hey that's fine.  I might do the same thing if I were Him.

The only thing I would NOT do is to punish the 99% who didn't "make it."  They would just simply not be included in the reward.

A kindergarten teacher has an experiment in her classroom.  He/She knows ahead of time that only a few of them will actually do well, and that most of them will fail big time.  The ones who 'make it' will be rewarded with some "prize."

Now tell me this: Should the ones who didn't "make it" be SET ON FIRE???

I think the whole Hell thing is something added to the Bible to control the masses.


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A just government has nothing to fear from an armed citizenry!
 


Posts: 110 | Posted: 03:31 AM on December 23, 2002 | IP
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Think of it this way. Where would hell be? Scientsts already know what is under the ground. Magma and lava and dirt. We know it cant be there. and everything else is the atmosphere or other planets.


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Our days are numbered. Live each day to the fullest because there may not be a tomorrow.
 


Posts: 85 | Posted: 7:01 PM on December 30, 2002 | IP
fallingupwards84

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i believe heaven and hell could be in another dimension that you cant get to


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 9:43 PM on December 30, 2002 | IP
sourbubblegum

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Maybe fallingupwards. I guess we will never know.


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Our days are numbered. Live each day to the fullest because there may not be a tomorrow.
 


Posts: 85 | Posted: 9:47 PM on December 30, 2002 | IP
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Hell is a place for spiritual punishment, before you go to the Lake of Fire if you havn't had Jesus save you.
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 4:37 PM on January 8, 2003 | IP
Nova

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wow sour quite the thinker you are... that holding tank is refered to several times such as the never gloom a couple times in the new testament. It is said that specifically the angels that cohabited with human wemon were sent there, but that is my interpretation of the bible.


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One God; One Truth; One Way
 


Posts: 96 | Posted: 11:26 PM on January 9, 2003 | IP
debategirl88

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There is a heaven. There is a hell. There is a God. There is a devil. There are angels. There are demons. PERIOD. If you don't believe it because you can't see them, think of wind.


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A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned - this is the sum of good government.
-Thomas Jefferson
 


Posts: 157 | Posted: 7:56 PM on January 13, 2003 | IP
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I feel the wind. I don't feel God either. It isn't a "period" to the millions of atheists and agnostics in the world. And it isn't a period to a theist like me either.


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 8:20 PM on January 13, 2003 | IP
AlexanderTheGreat

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think of wind? of course, WIND! you're right, there must be a God! and angels! and heaven and hell! all my logic is shattered, my intellectual musings at an end! Praise the Lord! but wait, how do I know he is a Christian God? if a tree falls in the woods, and no one is there to here hear, does it make a sound? yes, that's it, TREES! there must be a Christian God! Jesus, take me!


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Alex
 


Posts: 292 | Posted: 07:47 AM on January 14, 2003 | IP
debategirl88

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You can't see wind, but you can feel it. you can't see God but alot of people can feel him. I know what alot of people are going to say: I can't feel God so I guess shes just taalking crap. The truth is, you've got to want to feel God. you can't go into a church closed minded and say well I didn't feel God. You have to be open minded.


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A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned - this is the sum of good government.
-Thomas Jefferson
 


Posts: 157 | Posted: 7:17 PM on January 14, 2003 | IP
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I went to synagogue openminded for most of my life. Never happened. I still don't feel God. There can be no proof of God. In fact, I believe trying to prove God or even convince others there is a God is somewhat sacreligious (whatever happened to faith?)
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 8:19 PM on January 14, 2003 | IP
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grr...it wont recognize dsadevil (that's me)...but it says im logged in!
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 8:43 PM on January 14, 2003 | IP
fallingupwards84

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some people like alex think that faith is a ridiculous idea, so what you said really doesnt hold up with them


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 8:54 PM on January 14, 2003 | IP
AlexanderTheGreat

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that's right! here's the thing: would you respect my "faith" in a talking snowman, or would you laugh at me? be honest. you call it faith when it comes to religion and somehow it sounds better, but the exact same phenomenon in other arenas is called insanity, stupidity, ignorance, etc. If I posted on this site that I spoke to God and he told me his name was Bubba and he wants all humans to wear animal hides, no one would take me seriously. but if God tells you that gays are bad and you should go to a building every sunday and eat his body and that if you don't believe in him you will be a human barbecue, you all think that's just fine and dandy. and of course all you have to say is "of but it's faith", and then as usual I puke.


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Alex
 


Posts: 292 | Posted: 09:54 AM on January 15, 2003 | IP
fallingupwards84

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do you really puke? that would be disgusting.


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 11:09 AM on January 15, 2003 | IP
AlexanderTheGreat

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well, sometimes it's just a false alarm


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Alex
 


Posts: 292 | Posted: 1:03 PM on January 15, 2003 | IP
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i was thinking out this debate last night. I came up to the answer that there is no way I can prove God is real, but you can't prove He's not. don't puke Alex, but it is faith that you need to believe in God. There is evidence that the Bible is true. Here I go:

Back before 1492, people believe that the earth was flat. Of course, its not flat. In the Bible God calls the earth a sphere. That's how Christopher Columbus new it was round.

Again, back in the olden days, when they used to do surgery, they did it with the patient awake. they thought the pain would just knock them out. Later they found out that if you put the patient to sleep it is alot easier. In the Bible, what did God do to Adam when he took his rib to make eve? He put him to sleep.

Genesis 2:21-22: and the Lord caused a deep sleep to fall upon  Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh thereof;
and the rib which the Lord God had taken from the man, made he a woman and brought her unto the man.


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A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned - this is the sum of good government.
-Thomas Jefferson
 


Posts: 157 | Posted: 9:35 PM on January 15, 2003 | IP
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Actually, Alex is not an atheist, he is agnostic. So he doesn't deny the possibilty that God exists.

Second your "proof" is unpersuasive. 1st, Magellean figured out the world was round not Columbus. Second it was the church that was a huge proponent of the flat earth doctrine in the first place. And third, where does the bible say the earth is spherical.

Your second proof reminds me of an old fortunetellers trick. They deliberately make their predictions vague, so that they can make them fit the facts later. For example, a policeman asks a fortuneteller for hints on finding a murder victim. She says " I see water and the number 8." 5 days later, the body is found in the middle of a field. But the fortuneteller points out that the body was found at 8:00 in Ocean View, or that it was 8 miles from river road. The point is, broad statements like you gave can fit any set of facts.


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 9:42 PM on January 15, 2003 | IP
AlexanderTheGreat

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no one believes me, but i am so certain i once read a passage in the Bible that describes something Solomon sees in a way that makes it clear the writer thought the sun revolved around the earth. i can't prove it, cause i don't remember where it is in the Bible. sorry. you can go ahead and ignore it then.

and by the way, dsadevil is right. people make it out like columbus was so special for thinking the earth was round, but by 1492 lots of people thought it was round, and not because of the Bible.


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Alex
 


Posts: 292 | Posted: 10:48 PM on January 15, 2003 | IP
fallingupwards84

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dsa, magellan was the first to PROVE that the world was round. he was not the first to believe that the earth was round. columbus believed the earth was round, but he was not the first either. alex is right, by the time of columbus, most scientists and astronomers knew the earth was round.

here is the bible verse that debategirl was talking about. this verse in the bible comes from the book of Isaiah, which was written hundreds of years before Christ:

"He sits enthroned above the CIRCLE of the earth..."


now of course this verse did not influence scientists to think that the earth was round. but nonetheless, the verse did mention that the earth was round.


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 01:22 AM on January 16, 2003 | IP
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according to my knowledge of geometry, a circle is still flat. it is just circular. Ptolmey thought that the earth was flat but circular. What's your point?


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 3:34 PM on January 16, 2003 | IP
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Hell is real, and you don't want to go there. All who do will be given a new body, as ugly as anything you have ever seen, and will live in eternal torment. Forever is a long time, IT DOESN'T END. It is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the living God! By the way the Scripture's do declare that the earth is round (sphere) and the Word talks about the water cycle thousands of years before mankind ever had any clue what was going on. Remember God knows everything, He even knows your thoughts. Let the Lord of all return quickly.  
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 3:42 PM on February 4, 2003 | IP
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Don't believe in hell.  Do believe in heaven.

Three words have become hell.  The Hebrew Sheol - means death.  The Jews I know don't believe in hell.  Christ was a Jew, so I take their beliefs quite seriously.  The Greek Haides means the "unknown place" in Greek, but was the replacement for Sheol - and means death.  Christ used the word "Gehena" - it was a real place where things were burned and destroyed.  Not eternal torment - eternal punishment means eternal destruction.  No chance at life.  Which goes quite nicely with God's promised punishment for sin - DEATH.  

Personally I believe when you die - you are dead.  Life comes again through Christ.  There will be a second chance for all - as long as you are willing to live God's will.  If not - there will be the eternal destruction - or death, for good.

I hate the idea of hell, the idea that God would function like a common thug.

GRRRR.


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- Leslie
 


Posts: 19 | Posted: 4:57 PM on February 17, 2004 | IP
    
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