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fallingupwards84

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was Jesus a liberal??....ooohhh this is debate is going to be so much fun


-------
i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 11:38 PM on December 27, 2002 | IP
fallingupwards84

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before we start debating this issue, i would like to make it very clear what my religious beliefs are. i believe in the divinity of Christ, i believe in the resurrection of Christ, i believe in the Virgin Birth...i believe in the entire New Testament. now for the debate...


the "Religious Right" are today's modern Pharisees. far from representing the teaching of Christ, today's "Religious Right" has created a "Christian Coalition" with the rich and the powerful  TO OPPOSE Christ's message of love, concern, inclusion, compassion and social justice, just as their Pharisee predecessors did two thousand years ago.
the "Religious Right" is composed of multi-millionares. here is what Jesus said about this:

"If you want to be perfect, go and sell everything you have and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me."  But when the young man heard this, he went away sadly, for he was very rich.

these are the very words of Christ. Jesus would have supported a progressive tax if He were on Earth today, along with an increase tax on the rich in order to pay for more programs for the poor.

People who imagine that Jesus of Nazareth is, was, or ever would be a "Conservative", need to take another hard look at the Gospels, which portray Jesus as one of the most Liberal religious leaders who ever lived.  Jesus was a preacher who, in three short years, infuriated the conservative leaders of his day.


-------
i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 11:45 PM on December 27, 2002 | IP
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I agree falling, Jesus was definitely a liberal.  There used to be an old fundamentalist gimmick to parade around with bracelets bearing the letters w.w.j.d.

Indeed, what would Jesus do?  Would he support fundamentalist extremism or would he spread love and forgiveness?  Would he dump on homosexuals, or would he fight for their rights as human beings?  Would he be complaining about alcohol or would he be drinking it with his friends?  In John 8:4 Jesus was brought a woman caught in adultery.  Rather than condemn her, he forgave her and said the only people allowed to condemn her were the ones who had never sinned.  No one condemned her that day.  In John 4:7 Jesus encounters a prostitute at a watering well.  Rather than judge her harshly for her sins, he asked her for a cup of water and gave her comfort for the mistakes in her life.  And in Matthew 11:19 Jesus was called a drunkard for drinking wine in the homes of local crooks and thieves.

Jesus was not the uptight, judgmental founder of fundamentalist christianity.  He was compassionate and he was forgiving.  Rather than thumping people over the head with the Old Testament (the New Testament hadn't been written yet), he spent much of his time standing up to the fundamentalist of his day.  In Matthew 23:27 he said they were nothing more than "whitewashed tombs, which outwardly appear beautiful, but within they are full of dead men's bones and all uncleanness."  And isn't that true of right wing christians today.  Right wing fundamentalist claim their truths come straight from the Bible, and yet they don't even know what is in it.  They wear a facade of righteousness, and yet they sin by adding their unfounded doctrines to the Bible.  They like to condemn others for living in sin, and yet they are blind to all the sins they simply ignore or write off as irrelevant.
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 05:13 AM on December 28, 2002 | IP
David_B_Thompson

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Alright, here we go!
Jesus lived in a totally different time and under a totally different government than we do, but the fact remains, He IS a conservative!

Fallingup, I'm getting sick of your unsupported labels!  Pharasees?  Come on!  There are debates within the Christian community about legalism, (or pharaseeism) and we won't get into that here, but calling Conservative Christians "pharasees" is certainly out of line!

The rich young man: no, those are not Jesus' words!  Here's what happened: "16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. 18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, 19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? 21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. 22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.
23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. 24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. 25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved? 26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible." (Matthew 19:16-30)
Jesus said that to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven the young man had to keep the commandments!  Which ones?  Well, we know that the correct nswer is "all of them", but that's not what Jesus said.  He listed the five commandment having to do with man's responsibility to one another.  After the young man confirmed that he had kept those, Jesus hit him with the first two: Thou shalt have no other gods before Me, and Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image. (And maybe "Thou shalt not covet" as well)  The point is that the young man worshipped his riches above God!

While Jesus did unquestionably support giving to the poor, He never suggested that the gevernment should step in and make people give!  Jesus did, however, tell the parable of the talents, in which He warns us to be good stewards of what He has given us.  "Giving to the poor" is fine, using the government as a middle man is not!

Keep in mind that the whole Bible is inspired by Jesus Himself.  Let's look at what He has to say on the issues of Environmentalism and Homosexuality: "Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. 24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.  26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. 28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;   29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:  32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them. "  (Romans 1:21-32)

Hmm, well, so much for "fighting for [homosexual's] rights as human beings"!  By the way, Conservativism doesn't fight against anyone's God given rights as humans, but we definately have a problem when we're asked to give special priviliges to those who "burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly"!

Complaining about alcohol?  Where do you get that?  Jesus drank wine, but He never got drunk!  It's the abuse of alcohol that conservativism has a problem with!

John 8:4 has been widely misunderstood for years!  Jesus "let her off" because He had to!  According to His own law, there had to be at least two witnesses in order for someone to be stoned!  Those witnesses had to throw the fist stones, but think about it, the "witnesses" in John 8:4 refused to give testimony!  They didn't tell Jesus who the man was!  (the last time I checked, physical adultery took two people to happen)  Why didn't they?  Probably because the man was one of themselves!  (Keep in mind, this was a plot to trap Jesus!)  Jesus simply "called their bluff"!

By the way, that "He who is without sin", phrase refers to the motives of the accusers.  Jesus knew that their motive was to kill Him, an innocent man, so they were not "without sin" in the issue at hand!  If you'll study Old Testament law, you'll find that accusers who didn't tell "the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth" were given the same punishment they had hoped to inflict upon the accused!

What did Jesus say in John 4?  "16 Jesus saith unto her, Go, call thy husband, and come hither. 17 The woman answered and said, I have no husband. Jesus said unto her, Thou hast well said, I have no husband: 18 For thou hast had five husbands; and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband: in that saidst thou truly."  (Jn 4:16-18)

Jesus nailed her with the Seventh Commandment!

Yes, Jesus kept company with sinners.  Why?  Because He came to call sinners to repentance!

No, Jesus was not uptight; He proved that when He "cleaned out" the temple!

What sins do censervatives "write off as irrelevant?"

The fact is, that Jesus would spend His time today promoting the Gospel.  Would He favor conservatives or liberals?  Well, which side has promoted the Gospel and which side has hindered the Gospel?  It's pretty obvious that liberalism, which has as one of its goals the complete elimination of Christianity, wouldn't exactly be on Jesus' top ten Gospel promoters list!!!

By the way, Fallingup, you oppose abortion, which is definitely a liberal institution, so please define what you mean by "liberal".

I maintain my position: Jesus IS a conservative!!!


-------
David B. Thompson


God
Bless
America!!!
 


Posts: 43 | Posted: 08:30 AM on December 28, 2002 | IP
fallingupwards84

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what do i mean by liberal? caring for the poor, not allowing the multi-billionares to run the country, allowing minorities to have equal rights, etc...
the reason why Jesus "let that woman off" is because He loved her, not because He "had to"

ohhh i am so sorry to offend you david by calling the Christian Coalition the modern day pharisees. i guess the truth hurts sometimes.

the reason why we need government to be the middle man is because otherwise, we are leaving that responsibility on the big corporations and multi-billionares. these people are just interested in having more money, they are not interested in giving money to the poor.


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 11:28 AM on December 28, 2002 | IP
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The main purpose of government is to provide defense, not to interfere with everything else, but that's another debate.

I'm not sure what I would call Jesus. He was challenging the establishment of the day, though, and he was introducing new ideas. I'm not a religious expert, nor do I pretend to be one, but I think I;d call him a liberal FOR HIS TIME.


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Don't tell me I'm conservative...I know that!
 


Posts: 351 | Posted: 1:15 PM on December 28, 2002 | IP
Havah

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Who is to say that big corperations and multi-billionaires are not interested in giving to the poor, Falling?  Do you know so very many that you can make that assumption, or are you just ignorant, and hope that by making that supposition you'll prove your point with false facts?  Many of the "big corporations and multi-billionaires" are the donators.  Bill Gates donated $200 million to rural libraries, Cheveron gave $25,000 to the War on Youth Initiative, and most celebrities have at least a few organizations that they donate to.  My point is that I hope you are not bent on proving your point on that standard.  Find a real one.  And I wouldn't be so quick to judge people, even the rich.  


-------
One God; One Truth; One Way
 


Posts: 15 | Posted: 3:32 PM on December 28, 2002 | IP
fallingupwards84

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ooo chevron gave 25 grand. wow, that must be a lot of money for them considering they are a billion dollar corporation. get real havah, 25 grand to them is like one cent to the common person.

do you guys realize what conservatives stand for? on an economic scale, conservative are AGAINST a minumum wage!!!! please dont tell me Jesus would not have been in favor of a minumum wage (although i am sure that david will try to convince me that He did)


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 8:47 PM on December 28, 2002 | IP
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Conservatives opposed to a minimum wage? Seems to me that a lot of conservatives are calling for minimum wage to be made higher... Sounds like you are referring to a minority conservative opinion to me.
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 10:27 PM on December 28, 2002 | IP
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25,000 is still something. It may be a drop in the bucket, but it's something.

Bill Gates has a 30 billion dollar foundation, too.

Rockefeller, Carnegie, and Morgan all did charitable things with a lot of their wealth. Rockefeller started three charitable foundations, Carnegie gifted libraries and universities, and Morgan spent the end of his life giving all of his fortune away...Morgan saved the US once with his money. That's when they started the federal reserve and put Greenspan in charge... ;)

Those evil rich people... they do such horrible things! Ugh... get off of it.
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 10:35 PM on December 28, 2002 | IP
fallingupwards84

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hahahahahahahahahahahha, conservatives want to RAISE the minimum wage??? hahahaha, wow you are very very very ignorant. contrary to your made-up information, democrats want to raise the minimum wage. in the 2002 US Senate campaign, democrat Erskine Bowles proposed raising the minimum wage to 6.50, republican Elizabeth Dole was very very against it. if it was up to republicans, there would be NO minimum wage because it is harmful to big business. in my economics class, our professor said that no minimum wage is a central idea of capitalism. those EVIL EVIL EVIL GODLESS socialists!!! how dare they want a minimum wage!!!

wowowow, another stupid comment made by our favorite guest!! carnegie, morgan, and rockefeller were nice people who shared their wealth??? HAH!! all three of these people were monopolists who drove up prices illegally. they also treated their employees like complete crap!! carnegie especially, he had no respect for his employees. these three people treated those under them like they were not humans.

you see my friend, rich people try to hide their greed by giving relativily small charitable donations. if you look inside these people, you see corporate greed and a disrespect for anyone under them.


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 12:03 AM on December 29, 2002 | IP
Havah

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You are contradicting your own beliefs in this debate by being judgemental, Falling.  Please stop making irrational, and for all you know, incorrect assumptions.  You cannot tell what was in their hearts, it seems that you're only assuming that to prove your point.  I believe I said that earlier about another similar post of yours.  You stereotyped all rich people and categorized them as all bad.  It must be something you've been fed by others because I'm sure you've haven't met all rich people, and not even close to all of them.  Besides if you come into a debate on the defense and not open minded, as you have this one, where does that get you?  No where.  You'll be even more close minded in the end and that leads to arrogance, which seems to be something you're developing.  

Do you believe that all rich people are conservative?


-------
One God; One Truth; One Way
 


Posts: 15 | Posted: 12:34 AM on December 29, 2002 | IP
fallingupwards84

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it is a well-documented FACT that carnegie treated his workers very poorly. open any history book and you will find out.
you are right when you say that i am hard on rich people. but i cant seem to have much compassion for a multi-billionare.
and yes, the vast majority of rich people are conservative. the only liberals who are rich are typically politicians


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 01:28 AM on December 29, 2002 | IP
Havah

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Why can you not have compassion for rich people?  I just don't understand that.  I almost have more compassion for a rich person.  I guess I just don't understand your reasoning.  You tend to think that money makes a life easier, when I think that it only makes it more complicated, and possibly more difficult, and all people whether rich or poor have very difficult times in their lives.  I suppose it depends on what you consider important.  If money is important in your life, then yes being rich would make it easier.  But if family and relationships are important I don't see where money can come into play as much.    


-------
One God; One Truth; One Way
 


Posts: 15 | Posted: 02:33 AM on December 29, 2002 | IP
fallingupwards84

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i really have no idea what you are trying to say. first you say you have more compassion for rich people than poor people and then you say that money isnt important. hmmm....

you wanna know why it is hard for me to have compassion for rich people? because while they are living lives of total luxury and buying unneccessary things, there are people in the United States who are living in total POVERTY. did you know that last year, there was in INCREASE in the amount of homeless people across the nation? why do you care more about the rich than the poor?

back to the original topic in this debate...lets here what Jesus had to say about rich people:

   Now a man came up to Jesus and asked,
   "Teacher, what good thing must I do to get
   eternal life?"
    "Why do you ask me about what is good?"
    Jesus replied. "There is only One who is
    good. If you want to enter life, obey the
    commandments."
    "Which ones?" the man inquired.
    Jesus replied, "Do not murder, do not commit
    adultery, do not steal, do not give false
    testimony, honor your father and mother,
     and love your neighbor as yourself."
     "All these I have kept," the young man said.
     "What do I still lack?"
     Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect,
     go, sell your possessions and GIVE TO THE
      POOR, and you will have treasure in
      heaven. Then come, follow me."
     When the young man heard this, he went
     away sad, BECAUSE HE HAD GREAT WEALTH.
     Then Jesus said to his disciples, "I TELL YOU
      THE TRUTH, IT IS HARD FOR A RICH MAN TO
      ENTER THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN. AGAIN I
      TELL YOU, IT IS EASIER FOR A CAMEL TO GO
      THROUGH THE EYE OF A NEEDLE THAN FOR A
      RICH MAN TO ENTER THE KINGDOM OF GOD.

alright, well there ya have it. the words of Christ. i hope that you're not low enough to rebuke the teachings of Christ. you see havah, Jesus loved the poor. and since we are supposed to live by His example, we should all love the poor. why dont you try it


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 09:55 AM on December 29, 2002 | IP
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Only rich politicians liberal? What about Hollywood? Some people can't get jobs because they are conservative, fact.

A lot of homeless people don't even bother looking for work. They'd rather stay homeless. A lot of rich people made their fortunes. A lot of them were homeless or living in poverty. They worked hard to earn their money, and they give a lot of it back.

Morgan, Rockefeller, and Carnegie ended up giving most of their wealth away. I wouldn't call what would today be billions in donations small.


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Don't tell me I'm conservative...I know that!
 


Posts: 351 | Posted: 2:32 PM on December 29, 2002 | IP
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Rich people do a lot for the poor... I don;t see how you can deny that! I don't see the rich liberals donating all their money to charity, either. Billions of dollars are better than nothing. I seriously doubt you would give everything you had to the poor. If you would, sell everything you own and start donating all your money. I don't think you can do it, so maybe you shouldn't ask everyone else to.


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Don't tell me I'm conservative...I know that!
 


Posts: 351 | Posted: 2:37 PM on December 29, 2002 | IP
Havah

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You don't understand me?  I do have more compassion for the rich because it's more difficult for them and money should not be the most important thing people have.  Yes Jesus loved the poor, there is no argument there.  But are you saying that He hated the rich as you do? I don't believe that He hated anyone do you?  And I as well love poor people.  I grew up very poor, and know many wonderful poor people.  I suppose my parents would be rich if they had only one or two children instead of ten, and I will never be rich, but I don't understand why you must hate the rich.  Jesus did not hate rich people, he said it would be more difficult for them, as stated in the parable you gave, and it is.  So why not have more compassion for them?


-------
One God; One Truth; One Way
 


Posts: 15 | Posted: 5:40 PM on December 29, 2002 | IP
fallingupwards84

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i never said i hated people. i am just saying that the poor deserve more compassion than the rich because they are not as fortunate. excuse me havah for having compassion for the hungry and sick.

broker, if i were you, i would not make assumptions about me so quickly. i'm only 18 and i barely have any money at all, but i give a lot of money to charity, relatively speaking.

and by the way, you said that capitalism rewards the hard-working and punishes the lazy? what about a single working mother? how can you possibly call her lazy?

the point is that Jesus loves everyone, but at the same time, he calls for us to care for the poor. i'm sorry, but i think that socialism deals with the poor much better than capitalism. CAPITALISM SUPPORTS BIG BUSINESS, SOCIALISM SUPPORTS THE PEOPLE. now which side do you think Jesus would want us to take?

i have a question for you havah, do you think that i am any less of a christian because i am liberal. i once heard someone say that it is impossible to be both a christian and a liberal. i was curious to know if you thought the same thing.


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 6:37 PM on December 29, 2002 | IP
fallingupwards84

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i meant to say "i never said i hated RICH people"


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 6:39 PM on December 29, 2002 | IP
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I didn't say that capialism rewards the hard-working and punishes the lazy. I said a lot of rich people worked hard to make their fortunes.


-------
Don't tell me I'm conservative...I know that!
 


Posts: 351 | Posted: 6:58 PM on December 29, 2002 | IP
fallingupwards84

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so you are admitting that in capitalism, it is possible for a very hard-working person to still be poor?


-------
i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 11:30 AM on December 30, 2002 | IP
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Of course... was I ever denying that?


-------
Don't tell me I'm conservative...I know that!
 


Posts: 351 | Posted: 12:47 PM on December 30, 2002 | IP
debategirl88

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falling have you relized that democrats are the ones who are trying to take prayer out of school, ten commandments out of court houses, and even under God in the Pledge of Allegience? I don't think God wants all those things to happen. Most liberals in politics care more about winning control of congress more than defending our nation. (ex: delay on war AND election of 2002)  

Plus most of the rich is holywood and holywood is ALMOST all liberals.

Be prepared for a debate so you won't look like a complete idiot. (ex: this one)


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A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned - this is the sum of good government.
-Thomas Jefferson
 


Posts: 157 | Posted: 3:48 PM on December 30, 2002 | IP
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debategirl, time for you to provide some evidence to support those claims that are either blatantly unfounded or true but good things. Let's go through 1 by 1 shall we?

1) "Democrats are trying to take religion out of schools" (im lumping your 3 examples together). Did it occur to you that they might be doing this because Engel v. Vitale outlaws govt. school prayer, Stone v. Graham struck down laws mandating the posting of the 10 commandments, and US v. Newdow struck down the pledge in schools? Republicans would prefer to score cheap political points rather than uphold established case law. The Newdow case deserves further note. That is the recent pledge case that created such an uproar. In an article, UC-Davis Law professor Tobias Wolffington commented that virtually none of the arguments against the ruling were based on law or fact, but rather majoritarian assertions that most people "want" to keep the pledge. Wolffington correctly points out that the majority viewpoint is not a relevant fact or argument in a court case on constitutional law. In examining the legal merits of the ruling itself (I've read both the opinion and the dissent) it seems like the opinion is on solid legal ground.
2) "Rich liberals are all in hollywood." Does the name Jon Corzine ring a bell? He's the senior senator from New Jersey, a democrat, and extraordinarly wealthy. He got his wealth through investment banking. I personally am from an upperclass family, am a democrat, and live in Maryland. You make a hopeless generalization that is unsupportable and entirely pointless.
3) "Democrats care more about politics than defense." You confuse "defense" with "kicking the shit out of Iraq." I personally oppose a war with Iraq b/c a) we need to concentrate on al qaeda. Bush has had little to no success in getting their top leaders (the Washington Post estimates that 4 of the top 5 and 13 of the top 20 are still at large), so he is trying to deflect attention away from it so he maintains high ratings on nat'l security. Personally I think actually catching the bad guys is more important than high popularity ratings, but hey, that's just me. b) The US STILL hasn't posted any evidence to contradict Iraq's claims of innonence. Is Iraq probably lying? Of course. But that does not remove our obligation to provide more proof than our current level of zero in order to start bombing. By taking the unilateralist "we think they have weapons so we can do whatever want about it" we squandered any good will we might have had post 9/11 and have made it next to impossible to gain the trust of the more reluctant europeans (let alone arabs) that Iraq needs to be attacked. Oh and one more thing. If you recall, the dept. of homeland security was originally drafted, proposed, and supported by democrats. President Bush opposed it.

Rather than spouting out rightwing propoganda and hopelessly partisan pseudofacts, give us some evidence next time. Until then, the loyal opposition rests.


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 7:08 PM on December 30, 2002 | IP
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Hmm... I'd love to see them try to enforce the peldge ruling. Not all laws passed are good laws for the country... I believe the house and senate passed a unanimous condemnation of the ruling. A lot of counties or cities ordered their schools to disregard it anyway. No one has to say the pledge, so if they don't want to they don't have to. That's another debate. I think that crime in schools went up around 80% when they ordered the ten commandments out. Our laws are based on Judeo-Christian law...

I think falling was saying that the only rich Democrats were politicians and that most of the rich are Republicans. That's why we mentioned Hollywood, as almost everyone in Hollywood is a liberal.

If we shared our proof against Iraq we would expose how we got it. Do we really want to tell Saddam that we have some sources in certaina areas of his government giving us information? Support for the US in Europe is already gone. Look at Germany! We had to do a lot to get France with us. We don't have to prove anything to anyone, in my opinion. Those people in Europe aren't worrying so much about a dirty bomb going off in a major city and thousands dying, do they? They don't have to worry about biological agents going to terrorists who will use them to kill as many people as possible, do they? Not yet, but they probably will, and that's why the lack of cooperation out of everyone but Great Britain and a little from France and Spain is so surprising to me. How many more Iraqis have to starve under Saddam, be executed under Saddam, or be gassed to death in some experiment by Saddam? Iraq has great potential, and the country wants to be liberated! THere are over 150 groups formed by Iraqis that oppose Saddam... they have to operate outside of Iraq, though. Iraqis approach journalists on the street and tell them they are waiting and want to be liberated. How long does the human rights abuse continue? How many more have to to die before the world will let us liberate the country? How many? I'd really like to know how many more you are willing to let him kill because he certainly has no problem killing them. Him suspecting you are against his rule is enough for a private torture and execution session. How many innocent people will be dead before someone will let the bombs fall and the bullets fly? Sure, some innocent people will die in the liberation of the country, but it will be much less than those who would have died.


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Posts: 351 | Posted: 7:58 PM on December 30, 2002 | IP
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Of course the Republicans took Homeland Security and ran with it when people said it was a good idea... that's politics!


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Don't tell me I'm conservative...I know that!
 


Posts: 351 | Posted: 8:01 PM on December 30, 2002 | IP
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broker congratulations. That was the best written post you've had yet. Still wrong, but for once semi-logical.

The congress and the president have the responsibilty to enforce the rulings of the court. If they dont our entire system collapses. I cant believe you would even suggest otherwise.
As for the whole Iraq thing, there are ways to say how we get information without revealing how we got. Just say it was from a predator drone. We aren't afraid of disclosing where we got our info on other countries. as long as its not a spy (and most of the info we get from these places isnt) its open season. Frankly it doesnt matter much if the Iraqis know its our spy planes that got the info, or weapons inspectors. They cant do anything new to 'em. The whole status you gave to Iraq can be applied to 50 other countries at least. What makes Iraq so special? This whole thing reminds me of a recent doonesbury cartoon. "In Iraq: a mothers angst. 'they took my son away in the night! I don't know where he is being held, or what he is charged with, I can't even get a lawyer to him. I may never see him again!'" then..."Never mind about the Iraq part" as it cuts to the FBI/CIA doing the exact same thing in America. Kinda eerie, the simalarities eh?


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 8:10 PM on December 30, 2002 | IP
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What makes Iraq special? Iraq has some good infrastructure in place, Iraw has a secular society, the Iraqi people are well-educated, they've got oil, we need some more good friends in the region. If Iraq becomes a Democratic nation it means that Iran, Saudi Arabia, and all the other dicatatorships in the region are in danger of collapse.


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Don't tell me I'm conservative...I know that!
 


Posts: 351 | Posted: 8:20 PM on December 30, 2002 | IP
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To Democratic government.

I'd like to hear your list of countries with the same status... lol


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Don't tell me I'm conservative...I know that!
 


Posts: 351 | Posted: 8:21 PM on December 30, 2002 | IP
fallingupwards84

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debategirl, i honestly do not believe that God cares whether or not the ten commandments are posted outside some stupid courthouse. as far as school prayer, i think Jesus would be against it because He told us that when we pray we should pray in private


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 9:49 PM on December 30, 2002 | IP
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Iran is a democratic govt. technically. let's see, list of nations with human rights violations, theoretically yearning to be free:
All the middle east.
Virtually all of Africa.
A significant portion of Latin America.
A fair amount of southeast asia.
with oil...
Venezuela, all the middle east, southeast asia, some parts of africa.
with oil and infrastructure...
nothing leaves.
with all that plus promise of incurring good will...
with the current unilateralist streak, we need friends everywhere. so they all stay.


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 10:41 PM on December 30, 2002 | IP
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Iraq has a a Democratric government technically... Most dictatorships are made that way, you know that! It means nothing!

So your list ended up with no one in the same situation as Iraq?

And you know that if bombs start falling a lot of people are going to be with us. THey'll wait until that point to join in.

Taking Iraq out would cause the rest of the region to possibly fall to Democratic government, no?


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Don't tell me I'm conservative...I know that!
 


Posts: 351 | Posted: 10:50 AM on December 31, 2002 | IP
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My list left most of the world on it. (nothing left the list).
When I say Iran is a democracy, it actually it is. It's free and multiparty. The president of Iran is western minded moderate. The problem is is that the Ayottolah (who is unelected) holds all the real power currently. So there is a real power struggle between the democratically elected president and the theocracy. As opposed to Iraq which is a one man one party "democracy." Iran at least is trying.
Last time we invaded Iraq, we told everyone to rise against Saddam with us. They did, we pulled out, and they got slaughtered. They wont be so quick to do it again this time.


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 2:09 PM on December 31, 2002 | IP
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We left because the world community wanted us to. This time we won't listen to them.

Iran isn't trying. The religious leaders control everything and the people are tired of it. Should Iraq fall Iran would prbably closely follow.


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Don't tell me I'm conservative...I know that!
 


Posts: 351 | Posted: 2:37 PM on December 31, 2002 | IP
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true, but when I say trying I mean that they actually have a multiparty democracy. Its just ineffective due to the theocrats.

Well we are in agreement on one point. If we invade Iraq, we have to stay and rebuild it, not just jet as soon as our precious oil is safe.


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 4:26 PM on December 31, 2002 | IP
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At least we aren't one of those thirteen nations that are already dividing the oil up... I say we use the oil money to rebuild the country.


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Don't tell me I'm conservative...I know that!
 


Posts: 351 | Posted: 4:30 PM on December 31, 2002 | IP
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I think God does care, falling. I got lucky in my life. I go to a Bible private school. We pray everyday in my class in the start of every class. Your saying that God is against us praying like that? Your saying that God is against the pastor of a church praying outloud in front of the church? when He says pray in your closet, He's saying don't pray to show off andHe's also saying pray at least once a day in your quiet time just God and yourself. NOT always pray to yourself don't ever pray out loud. You probably just missunderstood.
O, and about the 10 Commandments, its SUPPOSED to be the SUPREME law of the land. Not just for religious purposes. So when there taking out the court room there saying that it is not needed and alsoGod's law is not needed. And you don't think God cares about that?


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A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned - this is the sum of good government.
-Thomas Jefferson
 


Posts: 157 | Posted: 6:43 PM on December 31, 2002 | IP
fallingupwards84

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honestly, do you really think God gets offended if the ten commandments arent posted? come on now, get real. instead, God is more concerned about things like poverty and world hunger and aids and everything else plagueing the world.

and the problem with school prayer is it becomes very ritual and the prayers are not as personal


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 11:31 PM on December 31, 2002 | IP
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"the ten commandments is supposed to be the supreme law of the land"

That is total nonsense.  The first four commandments are religious edicts having nothing to do with law or ethical behavior.  Only three (homicide, theft, and perjury) are relevant to current American law; and all of these existed in cultures long before Moses.  Just a side not if Americans honored the commandment against "coveting", free enterprise would collapse

 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 08:48 AM on January 1, 2003 | IP
debategirl88

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The religious part of the 10 Commandments is SUPPOSED to be law. The name of it says it all COMMANDMENTS. That tells us it is to be a law.


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A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned - this is the sum of good government.
-Thomas Jefferson
 


Posts: 157 | Posted: 12:47 PM on January 1, 2003 | IP
dsadevil

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Religious law, not secular. The US can't base itself off of solely religous law. And Broker, on Iraq looks like we are again in agreement.
And what do you know, debategirl, i feel lucky too. I go to public school. I never had a group of rabid fundamentalists try and pressure me into to converting. I never had my school tell me that jesus was the way. And I feel blessed b/c of it. My school is progressive, it is open, and we have free discussion on religion, politics and other issues without the cast of orthodoxy draping over it. And I wouldnt have it anyother way.


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 4:02 PM on January 1, 2003 | IP
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I'm going to lock myself in that closet again...


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Don't tell me I'm conservative...I know that!
 


Posts: 351 | Posted: 2:41 PM on January 2, 2003 | IP
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  God is not passive. He doesn't want us to have a "whatever happens happens" attitude, or "it's not so bad after all" type of mind set. He wants us to be full of love but be fierce protecters of righteousness at the same time.
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 5:05 PM on January 2, 2003 | IP
fallingupwards84

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the point is Jesus is a liberal and if we are to follow His example, we are to be liberal as well...not like the conservative legalistic pharisees


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 8:31 PM on January 2, 2003 | IP
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Actually, Jesus was apolitical. He said, render unto Ceasar the things  that are Ceasars, and under God. That means Jesus was apolitical, and yet His stand for goodness caused Him to die a political death. Having said that I agree the govt. should not be a religious athority, but the believer's vote should reflect that Jesus they serve.


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A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned - this is the sum of good government.
-Thomas Jefferson
 


Posts: 157 | Posted: 10:55 PM on January 2, 2003 | IP
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"the believer's vote should reflect that Jesus they serve"

Of course, and if they do that the will always vote liberal.
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 04:41 AM on January 3, 2003 | IP
Nova

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this is clearly one of the less intelgetn arguments and can be explained easily.

liberal/progressive and conservative are ideas that represent a persons ideas on a timeline. tyhey are based around this sololely progressive and conservative change, they are fluid. Now christ would be conservative because he comes froma ftime 2000 years ago and liberal for ten because he came up with ideas never before presented to the world. so it is not a question wheter he was liberal or not more about the specific beliefes that christ had especially love and compassion. These two ideas make him no where near any of the politial parties in this nation or around the world for they are all greedy. Jesus is neither he is timeless thus can not be conservative or liberal


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One God; One Truth; One Way
 


Posts: 96 | Posted: 8:47 PM on January 5, 2003 | IP
fallingupwards84

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but conservatives tend to have more of a love for money and liberals tend to care more for the poor and unfortunate


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 10:38 PM on January 5, 2003 | IP
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Are you calling all rich people conservatives again? All I have to say is Hollywood and the Beltway.


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Don't tell me I'm conservative...I know that!
 


Posts: 351 | Posted: 10:42 PM on January 5, 2003 | IP
    
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