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hatfield

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MALE lions grow longer, thicker manes in cooler climates, scientists have discovered. Researchers in the US found that lions in zoos in the north of the country grew far more impressive manes than those in hotter southern states. The accepted view that there are 23 different species and sub-species of lion may have to change following the discovery. It is largely based on physical appearance - especially that of manes.
'It is reasonable to hypothesise that most regional variations in manes reflect climate and other environmental influences rather than demarcating evolutionary significant units within panthera leo,' the researchers wrote in the Journal of Mammalogy.


Another rethink of evolutionary theory is on the way, it seems.

I have noticed a pattern. Evo theory 1 is put together and anyone not believing it is called out of date, ignorant, stupid or insane. Research later shows theory 1 to be wrong. All those who once believed it are now called out of date, ignorant, stupid or insane. Theory 2 is put together. Anyone not believing it is called out of date, ignorant, stupid or insane. Examples include Darwinist gradualism being replaced by puntuated equilibrium (big changes happening suddenly).

(Edited by hatfield 4/14/2006 at 05:10 AM).
 


Posts: 21 | Posted: 05:05 AM on April 14, 2006 | IP
EntwickelnCollin

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I have noticed a pattern. Evo theory 1 is put together and anyone not believing it is called out of date, ignorant, stupid or insane. Research later shows theory 1 to be wrong. All those who once believed it are now called out of date, ignorant, stupid or insane. Theory 2 is put together. Anyone not believing it is called out of date, ignorant, stupid or insane. Examples include Darwinist gradualism being replaced by puntuated equilibrium (big changes happening suddenly).


You're going to have to explain to me how growing thicker manes as a result of colder climate doesn't fit with the ToE.

As for Punc Eq: it's not different than any other scientific theory. Editions are made all the time. Einstein didn't disprove the Theory of Gravity so much as modify it, just as Gould modified the traditional understanding of Natural Selection with Punctuated Equilibrium.


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http://ummcash.org/officers.html
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/08/wow_1.php
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/08/a_triumphant_beginning.php
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Posts: 729 | Posted: 8:29 PM on April 14, 2006 | IP
hatfield

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Notice that the end result of the climate change was a slight variation - yet again! They were lions before and after the change. All that had happened was a slightly longer mane. All those different lions indeed had a shared ancestor, I agree - it was a lion. A slightly different hair length is hardly evidence that lions have the same ancestor as carrots.  
 


Posts: 21 | Posted: 05:43 AM on April 15, 2006 | IP
EntwickelnCollin

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Notice that the end result of the climate change was a slight variation - yet again! They were lions before and after the change. All that had happened was a slightly longer mane.


You don't understand the ToE if you believe a change in the average temperature is going to cause a population of lions to turn into, say, a wolly mammoth. What reason would simply colder weather have to encourage a population of lions to evolve into anything other than lions? Mammals are very flexible as it is, because we are warm-blooded. We can stand temperature variation of all sorts.

On the other hand, if there was a scarcity of meat to go around, the ToE would predict a change of lions from carnivorous to omnivorous. After their digestive system changed to better metabolize plants, the lions muscle and mouth features would change to suit a diet of plants as well. For example, the reason lions have such bulk of shoulder and leg muscle is because they need the ability to pounce far distances, move quickly, and attack a living animal that might be able to fight back in some cases. However, if there was very little meat, and lions were one of a handful of large animals in the environment, we could expect to see them lose that muslce mass. Their teeth would also form broader, stouter figures instead of the long and sharp canines needed to grapple and slash flesh.

My point is, a colder climate is not nearly enough change to justify evolution from a lion to something else. Big cats are derived from the Ice Ages, I'll add. Alter a more significant variable, however, and you could expect to see a very obvious change occur. But, of course, you know this happens over a time far too lengthly for any of us to see it happen in its entirety. If I wanted to play by your rules, I'd just ask for a photograph of God creating a lion from the ground up and rest my case.

To get back on the topic: How does the variation of lion manes as a function of temperature cause any edition to the ToE?

(Edited by EntwickelnCollin 4/15/2006 at 12:05 PM).


-------
http://ummcash.org/officers.html
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/08/wow_1.php
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/08/a_triumphant_beginning.php
We're official!
 


Posts: 729 | Posted: 12:02 PM on April 15, 2006 | IP
hatfield

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You twist what I and others say. Have you considered a career in politics? I don't believe that climate or anything would make a lion change into a mammoth or anything other than a lion. I used to believe ToE but no longer for reasons given already.
 


Posts: 21 | Posted: 5:18 PM on April 15, 2006 | IP
EntwickelnCollin

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You twist what I and others say. Have you considered a career in politics? I don't believe that climate or anything would make a lion change into a mammoth or anything other than a lion. I used to believe ToE but no longer for reasons given already.


Which words have I twisted, exactly? You're using a poor example of inner-species evolution as a way to say speciation doesn't occur.



-------
http://ummcash.org/officers.html
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/08/wow_1.php
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/08/a_triumphant_beginning.php
We're official!
 


Posts: 729 | Posted: 10:04 PM on April 15, 2006 | IP
RoyLennigan

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Quote from hatfield at 12:18 PM on April 15, 2006 :
You twist what I and others say. Have you considered a career in politics? I don't believe that climate or anything would make a lion change into a mammoth or anything other than a lion. I used to believe ToE but no longer for reasons given already.



take this situation to illustrate his point:
a population of mice live in grasslands near a forest.  many of the mice have slim bodies and longer legs, making it easier for them to travel through the long grass.  they survive more easily and pass on their genes, creating more of these slim, long-legged mice.  a small group of these mice, though, have saggy skin and slightly longer claws.  they can't run as fast, and get caught easily on the grass, making easy targets for predators.  

this minority group is on the brink of extinction when a few of them wander into the forest in search of food.  they follow insects into the trees where there are no mice to compete with them.  their longer claws allow them to climb easily.  a hawk sees one and goes after it, but the mouse jumps from the tree.  amazingly, its small flaps of skin slow down its jump so that it survives the fall, landing in another tree.

since this small population of mice has almost no competitors in this new habitat, and since they survive more easily there, they remain and the population begins to grow.  they are segregated from the other mice, so the genes that help them survive are more readily selected for, causing the characteristics which are advantageous to them to be emphasized in later generations.  their offspring have longer claws and larger flaps of skin between their legs.  they become better adapted to their environment.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_squirrel

there are 36 different species of flying squirrel alone.  they are a completely seperate subfamily from other squirrels.
 


Posts: 152 | Posted: 10:33 AM on April 20, 2006 | IP
djtheuser

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Yeah, whatev. I want to see a mouse turn into a flying squirrel. Actually, I want to see anything turn race such that scientists have to create a new family. This never happens. Science finds new races/families but never creates them. Man can add vitamins to corn but cannot change the DNA of corn to make something new. When a new family is made, ie. macro evolution, get back to me.


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My politics may be warped but they are no worse than the national government, so I feel comforted.
 


Posts: 2 | Posted: 12:49 PM on April 20, 2006 | IP
RoyLennigan

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Quote from djtheuser at 07:49 AM on April 20, 2006 :
Yeah, whatev. I want to see a mouse turn into a flying squirrel. Actually, I want to see anything turn race such that scientists have to create a new family. This never happens. Science finds new races/families but never creates them. Man can add vitamins to corn but cannot change the DNA of corn to make something new. When a new family is made, ie. macro evolution, get back to me.



ok then, why don't you live for a million years then send me a letter when humans have limp useless appendages and huge heads because they've been living in space the whole time.

are you trying to be naive?  you will never see a mouse turn into a squirrel, you know why?  because thats impossible.  but, if you lived for a million years, you would notice that the offspring of a mouse would be a bit different each generation.  you would notice that the differences would be more prominent if the population moved to a new environment, or if their present one was change drastically.

creationists will never admit to any proof of evolution, so i don't care how much you complain because your ignorance is not my problem, its yours.

oh, and by the way, we've been changing the dna of corn for decades now.

(Edited by RoyLennigan 4/20/2006 at 2:16 PM).
 


Posts: 152 | Posted: 2:16 PM on April 20, 2006 | IP
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Quote from djtheuser at 12:49 PM on April 20, 2006 :
Yeah, whatev. I want to see a mouse turn into a flying squirrel. Actually, I want to see anything turn race such that scientists have to create a new family. This never happens. Science finds new races/families but never creates them. Man can add vitamins to corn but cannot change the DNA of corn to make something new. When a new family is made, ie. macro evolution, get back to me.


Okay fine. A small number of humans do not have appendixes. While they make up a fraction of the total population of humans they are more likely to survive (because they won't suffer from appendicitis). If it wasn't for medicine, in a few thousand years time most humans will have no appendix. Natural Selection FTW.

Could any creationist care to explain this?


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Posts: 51 | Posted: 4:34 PM on April 29, 2007 | IP
EMyers

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Explain what?  People being born without organs?  That's hardly a first.  Besides, wouldn't evolution (in order for this change to become permanent) mean that those who were born without appendices would be less likely to have children with appendices?  Is this, in fact, happening or are we simply talking about isolated mutations that are doing nothing in the way of evolving the human beings to which you refer?


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 9:41 PM on April 29, 2007 | IP
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Quote from EMyers at 9:41 PM on April 29, 2007 :
Explain what?  People being born without organs?  That's hardly a first.  Besides, wouldn't evolution (in order for this change to become permanent) mean that those who were born without appendices would be less likely to have children with appendices?  Is this, in fact, happening or are we simply talking about isolated mutations that are doing nothing in the way of evolving the human beings to which you refer?


Okay if two parents, niether of which have appendices, get together and make a child, he/she too will not have an appendix. And that is what seprates two species of dog, for example - if it weren't for technology this mutation would remain isolated and a new human genus would occupy, say, norway, or wherever this is happening.

Evolution does not happen on a grand scale. It happens one individual at a time.


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Posts: 51 | Posted: 6:19 PM on April 30, 2007 | IP
EMyers

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By that reasoning every time two parents WITH appendices had a child the child would have an appendix.


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"Thou believest that God is one; thou does well: the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 - Belief is never enough.
 


Posts: 1287 | Posted: 07:59 AM on May 1, 2007 | IP
    
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