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Should we have Affirmative Action ? 

http://www.youdebate.com/DEBATES/AFFIRMATIVEACTION.HTM

(Edited by %1034118639%.)
 


Posts: 31 | Posted: 4:06 PM on May 1, 2002 | IP
Day_Am_STR8

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NO! AFIRMATIVE ACTION does NOT support the truth

I am so glad that most people who this stuff is supposed to help are smart enough to realize that it is hurting everyone!

All it does is create ANOTHER name for preferential treatment.

AFIRMATIVE ACTION should be an action that is fair and equal. Current affirmative actions are neither fair nor equal!

It is JUST another way to minimalize the equality that America is suppose to represent.

QUESTIONS FOR YOU:

1- Why is their an unbalance in racial equality?
Because there is NO true Equality.

2- Should one group LOWER their standards to allow a second group access to an equal playing field?
Our government thinks so!  However, it looks like something is working in the background to actually reduce the improvement of society.
After all - WHY ELSE would ANYONE prefer UNHEALTHY PHYSICAL CONDITIONS It is A preferred situation in Black culture!

CONSIDER THIS: What most of America calls "FAT" unhealthy! However, Black Society minimalizes it by calling it "THICK" and preferring it as exceptable.

That really confuses me!

In most of America - people know that this issue leads to premature death through Heart problems, Diabetes, Vascular blockages and so on.

Is this exceptable due to them not wanting to be a NORMAL part of American society? ... OR (what I am inclined to think) - some how, for some reason something has them striving to go in the WRONG DIRECTION.

Are their Black Leaders Really doing them right?  . . . or are other agendas at hand? (like Mr. Jesse Jackson affording child support - or Sharp chasing a fantasy presidential election trying to act like something that he will NEVER be?


3- Is reverse discrimination the answer to having everyone like each other?

NO! Here is a PERFECT REAL LIFE EXAMPLE:
Imagine someone producing a "White Businessmens Directory" in the south. Do you think the ACLU wouldn't be in the middle of that? Would it be logical to assume that law suits would come up from something like that? Of Course - ONLY because the "word" WHITE was in it!. Last year in Fayetteville North Carolina there was a publication printed and advertised on TV selling a BLACK BUSINESSMENS DIRECTORY !  Unfortunately - Whites at too willing to overlook the wrongs just to pacify an issue
[color=blue]4- Where should the limits be placed?



Logically? They need to be placed in a way that ACTUALLY helps everyone in society to do the best they can. Nothing More - Nothing Less!  Fair, Equal, No Color - JUST People - period!

5- Should Limitations be reduced?


Well - look at poor neighborhoods - Poor white neighborhoods tend to be cleaner than Poor Black Hoods - If you want to live in filth like an animal - go ahead and reduce the standards that make MOST American neighborhoods nicer!

BUT REMEMBER: As these standards are being reduced - there is no one who will agree that a particular point is the right place to stop it! It WILL go On & On until all values are reduced to rubble!


6- Shouldn't EQUALITY be for everyone?

Is that (possibly) a reason why many of them choose to disrespect American English or disrespect a judicial system. With these factors in place - WHY SHOULD THE REST OF THE COUNTRY EXCEPT THAT AS AN EQUAL TO A BETTER PRODUCTIVE LIFE STYLE?




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Pro 23:9 Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words.
 


Posts: 20 | Posted: 6:44 PM on August 18, 2002 | IP
Xenjael

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well, u raise i very good point, there really is no quality, because there is no well to be equal is impossible, if we were equal we would be communists, and that worked because it isnt possible, it isnt possible because out of 300 millions people we all different idea than one another, and to that, we all either agree of each other's ideas or dont, we choose to think that when people are different me must make it a tough choice to live, in doing so we are showing that we are no wher near wat we term to be racial equality! if it were we'd of had a black president, or woman president
 


Posts: 83 | Posted: 9:06 PM on August 28, 2002 | IP
tsmith2771

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This idea is absolutly idiotic.  The best person for the job should get the job.  According to affirmitive action a white male can go to school, work his butt off while a black male slids through without doing anything and get the better job.  That makes no sense.  For those that support affirmitive action, put yourself in that scenario and see how much you like it.


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"I have no interest in making blacks equal to whites, they are of a lesser quality and this I am sure of." -Abraham Lincoln
"You don't win a war by dying for your country, you win a war by making the other person die for theirs." -General George Patton
 


Posts: 372 | Posted: 05:42 AM on August 31, 2002 | IP
dsadevil

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Before I begin, a caveat. I do not support Affirmative action. That being said, I see some misinformation being brought up by my compatriots that I'd like to correct.

"According to affirmitive action a white male can go to school, work his butt off while a black male slids through without doing anything and get the better job."

Wrong. Ever since the Bakke v. Regents of the University of California decision, it has been illegal to have "hard" quotas, I.E., that a certain number of minorities MUST get a job, position, contract etc.. What remains legal (though legally ambigious) is a "points" system, where a minority applicant is awarded a few extra points, only enough to influence an extremely close decision. So if the job calls for someone with an Ivy League degree and you have a white applicant with a B.A. from Harvard and a minority one with a B.A. from UPenn, affirmative action might just push him over the top. If the minority had his B.A. from Smallsville Community College, then it wouldn't. They still have to do SOMETHING.

"Should one group LOWER their standards to allow a second group access to an equal playing field?" Posted by Day_Am.
This is contridictory. An equal playing field means just that: equal. Both sides get equal oppertunity to meet the standards set for a particular job. That doesn't mean lowering standards at all. It goes back to what I said above, Aff Act doesn't mean an unqualified person will get the job, it means that race or gender can become an issue between two relatively EQUALLY qualified people, to balance out discrimination previously done and thus creating the "level playing field."

After all this, I'm sure you doubt my claim that I oppose Aff Act. Well I do, because in spite of all this, I don't think reverse discrimination will ever solve any problem, and I think the most significant problem facing people who want to rise in a society is not race but income (an aliment which admittedly dissproportionatly affects minorities). If we want to create a truely level playing field, that is the area we need to address.


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 7:15 PM on August 31, 2002 | IP
Xenjael

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the best person for the job may appear to be good but is terrble...take a look at clinton, and keendy both were white and by being popular they appeared brilliant dont forget what kennedy said in Germany in german: "Ich Bin Eine Berliner" end quote which means that he said he was a doughnut in german... that is not an honest mitake, and because of clinton out security laxed out...
 


Posts: 83 | Posted: 9:09 PM on August 31, 2002 | IP
dsadevil

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But of course, these men WERE the most qualified for a job. This being a democracy, the sole qualification IS popularity, not skill. Clinton got into his office due to charm and charisma. But so did Reagan. And W. And FDR. And Abe Lincoln. Fortunantly, in our job market, charisma is NOT the sole criteria, but education, experience, all of that is. And Aff Act only deals with people who are equal or virtually equal in the area that is most important: skill.


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 01:09 AM on September 1, 2002 | IP
tsmith2771

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There is nothing equal about it.  If two men submit the same application with the same qualifications who will get the job according to affirmitive action, the black of the white man?


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"I have no interest in making blacks equal to whites, they are of a lesser quality and this I am sure of." -Abraham Lincoln
"You don't win a war by dying for your country, you win a war by making the other person die for theirs." -General George Patton
 


Posts: 372 | Posted: 6:40 PM on September 2, 2002 | IP
dsadevil

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The black man. But again, it is only used as a tiebreaker of sorts. How is that less fair than, say, flipping a coin? If we are going to be unfair anyway, we might as well be unfair in a direction we DONT usually take.


-------
"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 8:54 PM on September 2, 2002 | IP
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Flipping a coin would be a 100 times more fair and I can't understand how you think it would not be.


-------
"I have no interest in making blacks equal to whites, they are of a lesser quality and this I am sure of." -Abraham Lincoln
"You don't win a war by dying for your country, you win a war by making the other person die for theirs." -General George Patton
 


Posts: 372 | Posted: 8:59 PM on September 2, 2002 | IP
Day_Am_STR8

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Quote from tsmith2771 at 1:59 PM on September 3, 2002 :
Flipping a coin would be a 100 times more fair and I can't understand how you think it would not be.


Aff Act does not support appropriate personality and behavior. A business persons personality is a MAIN factor in being awarded a contract - not a skin color or a flip of a coin. Affirmative action is a bogus attempt at helping those who refuse to be like the norm in business to get a stiff kick up the food chain. It's NOT FAIR - I do my best at using proper english - and I see anything less than that as being disrespectful to our language and country.





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Pro 23:9 Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words.
 


Posts: 20 | Posted: 10:19 PM on September 7, 2002 | IP
dsadevil

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Alright, everytime you've given that type of response, I've given a "what!?!?" response. I'll stop that now, because im learning not to be surprised by it anymore. So I will merely ask how a program that is designed to target race and race alone affects speaking styles and personalities in the slightest? Where do you get this?


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 11:05 PM on September 7, 2002 | IP
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Answer this, how would it not be fair to flip a coin to see who got the job rather then picking the black for the sake that he is black?


-------
"I have no interest in making blacks equal to whites, they are of a lesser quality and this I am sure of." -Abraham Lincoln
"You don't win a war by dying for your country, you win a war by making the other person die for theirs." -General George Patton
 


Posts: 372 | Posted: 03:36 AM on September 8, 2002 | IP
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Neither one is fair at all, but if we are going to be unfair, we might as well be unfair in a direction that will remedy a past injustice. Though think that's a weak argument, and that is my rub with Aff Action (remember, I said I opposed it. I just LOVE playing devil's advocate)


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 11:11 AM on September 8, 2002 | IP
tsmith2771

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A wrong doesn't make a right.


-------
"I have no interest in making blacks equal to whites, they are of a lesser quality and this I am sure of." -Abraham Lincoln
"You don't win a war by dying for your country, you win a war by making the other person die for theirs." -General George Patton
 


Posts: 372 | Posted: 9:39 PM on September 8, 2002 | IP
dsadevil

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actually, once I had a math problem where WRONG + WRONG = RIGHT (each letter was a variable). But I agree, two wrongs dont make a right, and also we are punishing people who committed no crime.


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 10:48 PM on September 8, 2002 | IP
tsmith2771

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But you must see the point I am making, flipping a coin would be more fair.


-------
"I have no interest in making blacks equal to whites, they are of a lesser quality and this I am sure of." -Abraham Lincoln
"You don't win a war by dying for your country, you win a war by making the other person die for theirs." -General George Patton
 


Posts: 372 | Posted: 01:13 AM on September 9, 2002 | IP
dsadevil

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Yep. I feel that by systematically excluding a group of people who committed no crime, you are being discriminatory. And today's white American odds are had nothing to do with the passage of the Jim Crow laws.


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 2:53 PM on September 9, 2002 | IP
tsmith2771

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Then why should it not be the best man for the job wins.  The harder, smarter worker should get the job every time.  Bottom line.


-------
"I have no interest in making blacks equal to whites, they are of a lesser quality and this I am sure of." -Abraham Lincoln
"You don't win a war by dying for your country, you win a war by making the other person die for theirs." -General George Patton
 


Posts: 372 | Posted: 5:10 PM on September 9, 2002 | IP
dsadevil

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Absolutly. I am in total agreement.


-------
"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 5:25 PM on September 9, 2002 | IP
tsmith2771

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Call guniess, we agreed


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"I have no interest in making blacks equal to whites, they are of a lesser quality and this I am sure of." -Abraham Lincoln
"You don't win a war by dying for your country, you win a war by making the other person die for theirs." -General George Patton
 


Posts: 372 | Posted: 7:32 PM on September 9, 2002 | IP
dsadevil

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first example of bipartisanship seen yet on this forum.


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 8:18 PM on September 9, 2002 | IP
Exxoss

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If everyone is equal in america, why are minorities givin more rights than whites?


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I am Exxoss, come to save you all from your impending doom!!!!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

-Exxoss
 


Posts: 438 | Posted: 10:44 AM on September 25, 2002 | IP
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The reason "flipping a coin" is currently an unjust method of deciding equally quallified applicants to job.promotion or college entrance is that some racist/sexist white males still exist in the USA. As soon as you prove that all white males are fair in all their decisions on hiring, promoting, firing and letting people into colleges, then we can go back to flipping coins to decide.
Everyone I've read so far who is against affirmative action seems racist or believes the racist propaganda that "affirmative action" means letting less qualified people get above more qualified white males---
Two points, first since unfair practices have occured in the past and since some white males are still somewhat racist/sexist then no one knows if minorities/females are equally qualified until you give the an equal fair chance for awhile.  Second there is no scientific objective way to decide which individuals will work hard and achieve after given a chance---sometimes the great grades and great family and friends' connections lets in an idiot or a corrupt creep and sometimes an unknown underdog comes through in a crisis in a big way--- even in sports the so-called "best" team on paper doesn't always win.
I've been in a position to hire people and one black female I thought would fail did fail, but one white male I thought would be great also failed and one white female I thought would be the best, got bored and quit and one white female I thought was slow-witted and foolish stuck at it and in nine months became the best worker I had. You just can't decide who is "most-qualified" very easily yet.
Affirmative Action just doubles our chances at finding some great leaders. How can anyone be against it?


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bobjoyce
 


Posts: 7 | Posted: 9:18 PM on October 13, 2002 | IP
tsmith2771

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First of all you have absolutely no right to call me a racist.  Second, you think all white males are racist and thats it.  You think there aren't black males that are racist?  I just have a problem with the fact that over 78 percent of the population is put down upon because they are white.


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"I have no interest in making blacks equal to whites, they are of a lesser quality and this I am sure of." -Abraham Lincoln
"You don't win a war by dying for your country, you win a war by making the other person die for theirs." -General George Patton
 


Posts: 372 | Posted: 12:38 AM on October 14, 2002 | IP
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i fully believe in anti-discrimination statues. but aff action creates a tilted playing field. granted, its trying to counteract the already present tilt for white males, but i think its impossible to make that judgement call.


-------
"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 8:30 PM on October 14, 2002 | IP
Exxoss

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78% of all statistics are incorrect and made up!  Also, racism does happen everyday.  Cracker, nigger, kike, yellowskin, redskin, import.  Racism is a basic problem in our society.  But affirmative action makes it more unfair for 1 race, makinng them a minority in the sense of who can get a better job.  CONTRADICTION ALERT!


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I am Exxoss, come to save you all from your impending doom!!!!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

-Exxoss
 


Posts: 438 | Posted: 8:01 PM on October 16, 2002 | IP
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78 percent of america is white, true statistic.  And yes racisim does happen everyday but its not one sided.


-------
"I have no interest in making blacks equal to whites, they are of a lesser quality and this I am sure of." -Abraham Lincoln
"You don't win a war by dying for your country, you win a war by making the other person die for theirs." -General George Patton
 


Posts: 372 | Posted: 03:13 AM on October 22, 2002 | IP
madbilly

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if america is supposed to be a free country then why are we forced to hire anyone that we dont want to.. lets say tomorrow i bought the pepsi company and i said "i no longer want tohire anyone that is not a wasp"  if i own the company why should i have to hire anyone i dont want to its not only unfair to the applicants and employees but also the owner of the company who might just be an avid racist


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my name is madbilly....what did you expect me to be happy when my name says Mad in it...
 


Posts: 451 | Posted: 3:29 PM on October 22, 2002 | IP
dsadevil

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its not so much that its unconstitutional to not hire minorities. its theoritically not. Its that congress has the power to regulate interstate commerce (Pepsi Co falls here), and therefore can make it illegal to not hire minorities.

To make such a law is perhaps unfair to one man (the owner). But to not have it is to be unfair to the stockholders, the other employees, and all potential and qualified applicants who are targets of that one mans racism.


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 8:33 PM on October 22, 2002 | IP
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But what if a single person owns the entire company, 100 percent.  It should be his call and his call only who gets the job.


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"I have no interest in making blacks equal to whites, they are of a lesser quality and this I am sure of." -Abraham Lincoln
"You don't win a war by dying for your country, you win a war by making the other person die for theirs." -General George Patton
 


Posts: 372 | Posted: 02:46 AM on October 23, 2002 | IP
madbilly

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thats what im saying...you cant tell some one how to run their buisiness....what if i owned a neo nazi brand clothing company...would i have to hirre a minority if he applied and all i had where whites working. why is it okay to take peoples individual rights away to help out others


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my name is madbilly....what did you expect me to be happy when my name says Mad in it...
 


Posts: 451 | Posted: 11:59 AM on October 23, 2002 | IP
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if that one man owns the entire company, and that company does not engage in interstate commerce, and there are no applicable state laws to the contrary, then he can do just that. But if he owns a large enough company that it affects interstate commerce, then his liberty ends up infringing on others liberty.


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 2:52 PM on October 23, 2002 | IP
tsmith2771

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It shouldn't be anyones call but the owner even if the company is the most powerful in the world.  The owner should have full say with no interference.


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"I have no interest in making blacks equal to whites, they are of a lesser quality and this I am sure of." -Abraham Lincoln
"You don't win a war by dying for your country, you win a war by making the other person die for theirs." -General George Patton
 


Posts: 372 | Posted: 4:42 PM on October 23, 2002 | IP
dsadevil

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Wait...what was that? I'm hearing the wails of people who invested in Enron and Worldcom. Too bad we didn't give the owners of those corperations MORE power, eh?


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 4:56 PM on October 23, 2002 | IP
tsmith2771

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thats completely different then the topic we are digusing.


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"I have no interest in making blacks equal to whites, they are of a lesser quality and this I am sure of." -Abraham Lincoln
"You don't win a war by dying for your country, you win a war by making the other person die for theirs." -General George Patton
 


Posts: 372 | Posted: 6:12 PM on October 23, 2002 | IP
madbilly

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no on made them invest...but if you do invest it is a risk...and llike all money oriented ventures you know the consequence of corruption.


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my name is madbilly....what did you expect me to be happy when my name says Mad in it...
 


Posts: 451 | Posted: 7:08 PM on October 23, 2002 | IP
dsadevil

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that wasn't my point. My point was the flaw in allowing one man the power to totally control w/out regulation a vast corporation. At some point, the threat to others outways that man's "liberty" to discriminate/price-fix/commit fraud or what have you.


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 9:57 PM on October 23, 2002 | IP
tsmith2771

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What if one man owned microsoft outright, it was a private company and no one had any say but him, shouldnt he have the right to hire anyone he wants?


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"I have no interest in making blacks equal to whites, they are of a lesser quality and this I am sure of." -Abraham Lincoln
"You don't win a war by dying for your country, you win a war by making the other person die for theirs." -General George Patton
 


Posts: 372 | Posted: 01:11 AM on November 5, 2002 | IP
dsadevil

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no, b/c microsoft engages in interstate commerce and therefore falls within the bounds of federal govt regulation under article 1 section 8 of the us constitution.


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 11:24 AM on November 5, 2002 | IP
tsmith2771

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well thats just a big pile of horse...


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"I have no interest in making blacks equal to whites, they are of a lesser quality and this I am sure of." -Abraham Lincoln
"You don't win a war by dying for your country, you win a war by making the other person die for theirs." -General George Patton
 


Posts: 372 | Posted: 12:53 PM on November 5, 2002 | IP
dsadevil

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aka, the US constitution


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 4:26 PM on November 5, 2002 | IP
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Affirmative Action is not meant to help blacks because of their skin color, but because they deserve compensation for past and continuing injustices.  And society has a long and approved tradition of awarding compensatory damages to victims of mistreatment.

Blacks came by their current disadvantage for two reasons.  1. Whites decided that a morally irrelevant feature, having black skin, was in fact a morally relevant feature.  2.  Whites mistreated blacks on that basis.  Supporters of affirmative action do not believe that being black is a morally relevant feature which deserves to be rewarded; but we do believe that injustices based on being black should be compensated.  Being black is only morally relevant in that it was used to justify the original sin.  The situation is like the Jews who survived the holocaust.  Germany paid a large sum in compensatory damages to the state of Israel after World War II, and no one decried that as reverse racial discrimination.

The U.S. has often passed laws that "discriminate" purely on the basis of race or gender.  These laws enjoy virtually universal support today.  The 13th Amendment abolished slavery, and the 15th and 19th Amendments gave blacks and women the right to vote.  These laws compare to affirmative action.

When the U.S. was first founded white males commanded 100% of the vote.  And this gave white men economic advantages in a number of ways.  They could pass laws that gave them economic privilege, like slavery or banning women for the workplace.  Also, they could vote to spend 100% of public funds on themselves.  Thus giving black and women the right to vote meant giving them a much larger slice of the economic pie.  These gains to women and blacks were at the expense of white males.  This loss of undue privilege happened on a group basis not an individual one.  White men who never owned slaves or discriminated against women were effected by their loss of political and economic privilege.  White males did not lose rights; women and blacks gained them.  What white males actually lost was unfairly gained money, power, and privilege.

With affirmative action white males do not lose the right to be hired for jobs; qualified women and minorities gain that right.  True, awarding these rights will deprive some white males of their unfair advantage to get jobs.  But they should never have had such unfair privilege in the first place, and taking it from them is not a violation of their rights.  White males had 150 years of affirmative action in their favor in the U.S., and now they want to whine about losing that unfair advantage.



 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 10:06 AM on November 7, 2002 | IP
tsmith2771

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Thats the biggest load of crap.  Take two men with the same exact resume but one is black and one is white, according to affirmative action who will get the job?


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"I have no interest in making blacks equal to whites, they are of a lesser quality and this I am sure of." -Abraham Lincoln
"You don't win a war by dying for your country, you win a war by making the other person die for theirs." -General George Patton
 


Posts: 372 | Posted: 12:21 PM on November 7, 2002 | IP
madbilly

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well bob the answer to that question is the black man...bob...if a white person owns a company a didnt want blacks then no one should make him...now if blacks want to get hired then maybe if this is unfair then they can start there own fortune 500 companies and spend a life time to get the company at a good prosperous level and then ony hire who they want to, such as blacks...is that likely to happen ...no. So one day think about starting a black oriented buisiness and help your brothers out. Just think...will one day jesse jackson wake up and say "hey, you know what, everything is fair, lets disband the NAACP" no. no matter how fair things are the black community is always going to be looking for a handout to compensate for there high rate of high school drop outs and their lack of college education. If i were black my college would be paid for by the thousands of "negroe" funds" many of which are subsidized by the federal government. If this isnt unfair enough they are given prefriential treatment in getting jobs with these diplomas. so now you are going to call me racist bc i stated facts about the black community....oh well, if you havnt noticed well off blacks refer to these "hand out" blacks as plantation pimps. They are called this bc they try to get money and pity and help bc they had ancestors that were slaves....oh boo hoo. The jews where slaves for thousands of years and they arent complaining and demanding special treatment...they are prosperous on there own,


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my name is madbilly....what did you expect me to be happy when my name says Mad in it...
 


Posts: 451 | Posted: 2:54 PM on November 7, 2002 | IP
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"Take two men with the same exact resume, but one is black and one is white, according to affirmative action who will get the job?"

The black man will and on the face of it that doesn't seem fair.  But if we expand our horizons and consider fairness in relation to the cultural and institutional histories of both of them, then the answer grows more complicated.

Affirmative action is only a small part of preferential policies in the U.S.  Consider the extent to which white males are intertwined with policies of preference.  In the past 50 years of social engineering the vast majority of direct befeficiaries of affirmative action policies were not minorities but white males.  We approached our social problems: unemployment, poverty of senior citizens, re-entry needs of veterans and GI's, farmers needing price supports; through planned social engineering.  This social engineering only became unpopular after it was applied to the problem of segregation.  It was only when affirmative action was extended to minorities and women, that white males seemed to object.

There is a tendency in most people to overlook the social props on which they themselves depend.  The U.S. Treasurey gives up over $45 billion each year to homeowners; deductions in a system that predominatley benefits people who earn more that $50,000 a year.  I am not saying that tax breaks for homeowners is wrong.  What is wrong is people who take advantage of all kinds of breaks for themselves while wanting to deny breaks for the most oppressed of society.  Don't see any farmers saying they will give up their price supports and other benefits they receive from the government because they are against affirmative action for farmers.

Affirmative action is part of the fabric of American life.  We are all bound together in a vast network of affirmative action, of mutual support systems we take for granted.  It is hypocritical and wrong to call affirmative action for minorities discriminition, while treating affirmative action for bankers, farmers and white men of power as entitlements.

White men may be feeling angry these days, and I guess the best thing I can say to them is:  "Welcome to the club".  Women and minorities have been shut out of jobs and paid less for as long as they can remember.  They have been feeling angry for a very long time.
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 03:08 AM on November 8, 2002 | IP
madbilly

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okay but farmers choose to be farmers and anyone can decide to be a farmer and get these subsidies..whereas being black or a minority is not an option and just for the fact of what race you are born doesnt mean that you should get help, if you want fairness then start your own company and hire only blacks. Tell your black brothers to quit dropping out of school and tell your sisters to quit having children as  teenagers. Inspire your people to go to college and do more and maybe you will get more out of life. If you put garbage in then you get garbage out. So aspire to be someething. It isnt my fault that the black community is riddled with problems that are absent from the white community for the most part.


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my name is madbilly....what did you expect me to be happy when my name says Mad in it...
 


Posts: 451 | Posted: 12:43 PM on November 8, 2002 | IP
tsmith2771

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A wrong doesn't make a right.  You shouldn't get compensation for being black.   You should get compensation for being good at what you do, that is the american way.  The black population in this country is around 12 percent while the white population is around 78 percent.  Why should the blacks be given a tilted playing field with affirmative action?  Why should someone that is less qualified to get a job get it over a white man?  The best man for the job should get the job, bottom line.  If a black man should be better for a certain job then a white, then I am all for the black man getting the job, but thats the only way.  


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"I have no interest in making blacks equal to whites, they are of a lesser quality and this I am sure of." -Abraham Lincoln
"You don't win a war by dying for your country, you win a war by making the other person die for theirs." -General George Patton
 


Posts: 372 | Posted: 1:31 PM on November 8, 2002 | IP
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tsmith - Bet you will be waving that confederate flag to support that black man getting the job.
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 4:04 PM on November 8, 2002 | IP
tsmith2771

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One thing has nothing to do with the other.  I will support that black man who gets the job if he is the most qualified, but I don't see what you are talking about.


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"I have no interest in making blacks equal to whites, they are of a lesser quality and this I am sure of." -Abraham Lincoln
"You don't win a war by dying for your country, you win a war by making the other person die for theirs." -General George Patton
 


Posts: 372 | Posted: 8:05 PM on November 8, 2002 | IP
    
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