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madbilly.  Next time I see all my sisters I tell them what you said to "quit having children as teenagers".  Since you like to stereotype, I will also, so next time you see your mama and sister tell them to quit having children with their brothers.
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 05:46 AM on November 9, 2002 | IP
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Blacks have about a 380 year history on this continent:  245 involving slavery, 100 involving legalized discrimination, less than 40 years involving anything else.

Blacks suffer discrimination, stigma and prejudice simply because they are black.  Blacks have to overcome these disadvantages just to get an equal start.  For over 100 years after slavery, blacks suffered legal segregation and discrimination under Jim Crow laws.  These laws were explicitly aimed at an entire race.  Because everyone in the race was harmed, the entire race should be compensated.  The converse is also true, whites received explicit advantage as a group, the entire group should be made to pay.

Hopefully you realize that official discrimination was not stopped all that long ago.  It occurred in the 60's, a little more than a generation ago.  It is wrong to assume that discrimination can be declared illegal one day and that an entire group will jump to equality the next day.

The passage of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 did not end the deep seated racial hatred and stereotyping in a day.  Blacks struggling to gain equality and better paying jobs have had to fight a head wind of contining racism and resentment.  Blacks are still suffering from the discriminations of the past.  They deserve a hand to pull themselves up.

The most effective way to cure society of exclusionary practices is to make special efforts at inclusion, which is exactly what affirmative action does.
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 07:40 AM on November 9, 2002 | IP
dsadevil

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Somehow group punishment doesn't strike me as an ethical solution. The people harmed by some of these programs (college based aff action being the most obvious) weren't even born when the discrimination occured. Plus, now multicuturalism and diversity are so hip and in style on college campuses that being a rich white male is the ultimate strike against you (unless ure parents are alumni, then race is totally irrelevant). The problem today isn't discrimination. I believe that discrimination is a cancer, you can never kill it, but u can send it into pretty serious remission. Today, our focus needs to be on helping poor people get a leg up regardless of race. There is no reason why a poor white male from Cabrini-Green should have a DISADVANTAGE when going up against the daughter of the founder of BET for a job or college. The focus needs to be on the poor people, regardless of race. need-based, not race-based.


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 12:54 PM on November 9, 2002 | IP
madbilly

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so group punishment is fair to you huh....well you are probaly one of those people that will claim the civil war was started bc of slavery. So doesnt this mean that thousands of people died for your freedom, thousands of whites. And wasnt it whites who voted on to pass the civil rights act, wasnt it whites who brought you to this country, or would you rather be infected with aids and starving at war with another tribe in africa right now.


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my name is madbilly....what did you expect me to be happy when my name says Mad in it...
 


Posts: 451 | Posted: 1:24 PM on November 9, 2002 | IP
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Why should 78 percent of the population suffer for 12 percent to prosper on the sole purpose of race.  Put the shoe on the other foot and how would you like it?


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"I have no interest in making blacks equal to whites, they are of a lesser quality and this I am sure of." -Abraham Lincoln
"You don't win a war by dying for your country, you win a war by making the other person die for theirs." -General George Patton
 


Posts: 372 | Posted: 2:04 PM on November 9, 2002 | IP
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the civil war WAS started over slavery. Don't be revisionist.
And whites brought them over here alright...in chains. Whites fought for their own freedom, then blacks fought for theirs. Or did MLK have some skin operation w/out the world knowing?


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 10:51 PM on November 9, 2002 | IP
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Yes whites did bring blacks over here, but people always tend to leave out the fact of where and who we bought these slaves from.  Black tribes in africa would imprision other tribes and sell them to europeans and americans.  It not like the whites went into africa and just rounded up a bunch of people.  Blacks were sold to whites by blacks.  People always look at it like whites are the enslavers, this is true but who enslaved them first?


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"I have no interest in making blacks equal to whites, they are of a lesser quality and this I am sure of." -Abraham Lincoln
"You don't win a war by dying for your country, you win a war by making the other person die for theirs." -General George Patton
 


Posts: 372 | Posted: 12:00 AM on November 10, 2002 | IP
dsadevil

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congratulations on knowing a fact of history few knew. But that doesn't mean the white folk can trumpet themselves. It just means they had company in terms of immorality.


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 12:26 AM on November 10, 2002 | IP
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Hoped you would join the debate dsadevil.  I've read through many of the threads and I have found you are the person I normally agree with (except this time it appears).  You are a throughtful person, as opposed to tsmith who's main point, I assume since he keeps repeating it, is that 78% of America is white; so who cares about anyone else.  His debating tactic is to say "what a pile of crap"; or, as in other threads to resort to name calling.  We can dismiss him for the fool his points and tactics prove him to be.  Madbilly's main point seems to be "blacks can go back to Africa and have aids" or something usually along those lines.  His incoherent rants, which come from a self proclaimed "redneck," carry little weight.

If I understand your objection, please correct me if I am wrong, it is the moral absolutism argument. You have raised the most valid concern with affirmative action, let me attempt to address it.

Moral absolutism is a completely unworkable concept that has never been practiced by any society in history.  The following example may highlight its difficulties.  Suppose society passed a law that says, "No one can forcefully take a car from the possission of another."  The next day your neighbor comes over and forcefully takes you car.  Having identified him you call the police.  The police show up at his door and demand that he surrender the car, he refuses, the police pull out their guns and forcefully take it from him.

It would be illogical for your neighbor to claim that the police were immoral and broke the law, since they forcefully took a car from him.  This is a completely invalid argument on your neighbors part, because correcting injustice is neither immoral nor against the law.  Your neighbor having acquired the car imorally, would now evoke moral absolutism to avoid giving it up.  This is exactly the same thing people do who claim affirmative action is unfair or against the law.  The white person has gained something imorally and doesn't want to give it up. Now he wants something he never wanted in the past - a level playing field.  This seems to be nothing more that an attempt to protect his self-interest through slippery rhetoric.  It is certainly not a morally consistent argument.

I agree with your that there needs to be a focus on poor people, but that only helps they younger generation.  What about the older generation of blacks who have suffered the most?
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 07:29 AM on November 10, 2002 | IP
dsadevil

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your point is true enough except that aff action generally doesn't deal with the people who "stole the car" (there aren't many slaveholder/traders left the world). Aff action is more like, if my great-grandparents (who incidentally, didn't even live in america, but oh well) took a car, in a crime that was never pursued, then used that car to get a better job, then bought a nice house and had a kid who used the advantages brought on by his parents new wealth (which can in part be traced back to the stolen car) to maintain that wealth, etc. etc. down to my generation, can the police come in and steal MY car in response to my grandfathers wrong? no. The problem is "White people" isn't a single, non-changing entity. Many whites, myself included, didn't live during the era of segregation and state-sanctioned discrimination. Many, again including myself, didn't have ancestors in this country when slavery occured. Many, again including myself, had white ancestors who supported civil rights. In sum, aff action is far too blunt an object, smacking down many for the crimes of only a few people's ancestors.


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 1:07 PM on November 10, 2002 | IP
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The main reason behind me saying that 78 percent of america is white is to show that a huge proportion of this country according to affirmative action is discrimated against because of their skin color.  And I know what you are going to say, blacks were enslaved because of there skin color.  Well a wrong doesn't make a right.  I find it funny that you try to put me down for name calling andf then call me a fool but at the same time whenever someone has a legitamate arguement you completlely shy away from it.  How do you feel that blacks were actually sold by blacks first?  How do you feel that it wasn't really the evil white man going into central africa and rounding up blacks for sale on the west coast of africa.  The triangle trade involved blacks in two ways, they were sold and they sold.  Please join this board and quit coming on as a guest.


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"I have no interest in making blacks equal to whites, they are of a lesser quality and this I am sure of." -Abraham Lincoln
"You don't win a war by dying for your country, you win a war by making the other person die for theirs." -General George Patton
 


Posts: 372 | Posted: 6:25 PM on November 10, 2002 | IP
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dsadevil:  I understand your reluctance to support affirmative action, it is a difficult concept to accept that people not directly punished or directly at fault for doing the discrimination should be even involved.

Let me try one last time to explain why I do support affirmative action.  Blacks for many years were denied jobs they were qualified for simply because they were blacks.  When this happens it affects far more blacks than just the one who was denied a job.  Other blacks were denied a role model that would haved helped break the stereotype, encouraged them to pursue jobs in that field, and reduced barriers to obtaining those jobs.  So discrimination against even one black person contributes harm to the entire race of blacks; hence all blacks should be compensated.

Also the flip-side of this argument is also true:  White men as a group benefit from positive stereotypes, were encouraged to pursue jobs in any field, and never faced bariers to obtaining jobs.  Even if they are not prejudiced and have not personally discriminated they still benefited from discrimination.  Hence all whites should contribute to the compensation.

tsmith:  You have yet to have a legitimate arguement is why I don't respond to you.  If you happen to stumble upon one I will reply.
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 08:23 AM on November 11, 2002 | IP
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I do have a legitamate arguement but you won't respond.  Why should 78 percent of this country be put down to lift up 12 percent on the basis of skin color.  It should be the best man for the job.  You said that discriminating against one black effects all blacks, don't you think it would be the same with whites too?  Or do whites not have families to support?  Why not destroy barriers all together instead of moving them from one set of people to the other?  Why do you fell that simply because a person is black they deserve to be compensated, I can understand if you personally were a slave of an american but that would be the only way.  And answer my question, how to you feel that blacks were the ones that really sold blacks first?


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"I have no interest in making blacks equal to whites, they are of a lesser quality and this I am sure of." -Abraham Lincoln
"You don't win a war by dying for your country, you win a war by making the other person die for theirs." -General George Patton
 


Posts: 372 | Posted: 1:01 PM on November 11, 2002 | IP
dsadevil

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yes guest (Who should register b/c "guest" is so vague). Basically, you are saying we should directly harm a group of people who had no say or influence on the commssion of some wrong to remedy the indirect aftereffect of that wrong. That's ridiculously disproportionate. Here is what you are saying in a nutshell.
I, a white person, should be discriminate against because:
1) people who look like me in the past committed a wrong that needs to be redressed.
2) though the people who have been actively harmed by this wrong are pretty much out of the picture, and though the direct wrong itself has been taken out of the picture (repealing discrimnatory statues), the indirect and non-tangible harm of...giving the apperance that minorities cant do certain jobs justifies directly harming me in a concrete, tangible fashion.
3) furthermore, it is entirely justified to harm me b/c i never had those "negative apperances" which would presumably cause a barrier to me getting jobs.
In sum: to remedy a non-tangible indirect harm, you directly harm a party whose wrong is at best, heridatory and certainly very flimsy.


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 4:18 PM on November 11, 2002 | IP
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I think we should do away with all affirmative action, not just black affirmative action.  That would mean no affirmative action for college atheletes, if they don't qualify academicaly like all others they should not be given preferential treatment and admitted just because they excel at a particular sport (which really has nothing to do with college).

I think we should do away with affirmative action for military veterans.  Currently if a veteran applies for a civil service job they are given extra points on the civil service exam just for being a veteran.  This is not fair to non-veterans.  Why should veterans get preferential treatment?

I think we should do away with affirmative action for farmers.  They currently receive price supports and other benefits from the government just because they are farmers.  Why should they be treated different than any other business person?  They don't deserve preferential treatment.

I think we should do away with affirmative action for churchs.  Why don't they have to pay property taxes like everyone else on their land and building?  They don't deserve preferential treatment.

There are countless more types of affirmative action such as these that should be done away with.  Why don't we hear protests about those types of affirmative action?  It seems people only object to affirmative action for blacks.
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 09:25 AM on December 3, 2002 | IP
Maynard

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most schools have scholarships that only blacks, hispanic, or asians can get, and it is considered fair.  but if they had scholarships that just a white person can get, it would be considered racist.  why is that?


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I love my country, but fear my government.

your friendly ultra-conservative patriot.
 


Posts: 270 | Posted: 2:16 PM on December 4, 2002 | IP
tsmith2771

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cause we are to concerned with being poloitcally correct these days.


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"I have no interest in making blacks equal to whites, they are of a lesser quality and this I am sure of." -Abraham Lincoln
"You don't win a war by dying for your country, you win a war by making the other person die for theirs." -General George Patton
 


Posts: 372 | Posted: 9:12 PM on December 4, 2002 | IP
madbilly

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to answer that i can say this
 1. any religion or religious property is excemt from tax..be it a church a synagouge or a mosque or a satanic ritual place...all you have to do is apply for excemtion
 2.farmers get subsidies...not affirmative action..way different, also the government does this in order to keep the farmers from being able to either over produce or severly under produce in order to control the price for their benefit, hurting all of us non farmers.
 3.your college athelete thing has nothing to do with aff. act....obviously you dont understand what it is.
  4. In my opinion veterans do deserve special treatment.


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my name is madbilly....what did you expect me to be happy when my name says Mad in it...
 


Posts: 451 | Posted: 12:38 AM on December 5, 2002 | IP
fallingupwards84

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athletes do not deserve special treatment


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 01:17 AM on December 5, 2002 | IP
madbilly

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but there special treatment is no way due to affirmative action...it has been and it always will be that atheletes receive special treatment from colleges. Colleges make loads of money off of sports and like to be number one on game day. Please explain to me how this is affirmative action. I know it is not fair but i dont really care.


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my name is madbilly....what did you expect me to be happy when my name says Mad in it...
 


Posts: 451 | Posted: 02:46 AM on December 5, 2002 | IP
tsmith2771

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Granted most D-1 athletes are black but that really doesn't have much to do with affirmative action, that has to do with athletic ability.  I am a huge kentucky basketball and if you know anything about college basketball you know we are the craziest.


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"I have no interest in making blacks equal to whites, they are of a lesser quality and this I am sure of." -Abraham Lincoln
"You don't win a war by dying for your country, you win a war by making the other person die for theirs." -General George Patton
 


Posts: 372 | Posted: 2:49 PM on December 5, 2002 | IP
dsadevil

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oh c'mon. cameron crazies are so much wilder.

two words:
Christian Laetner


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 3:15 PM on December 5, 2002 | IP
tsmith2771

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Two words, eat me.  I have a laetner voodoo doll.  I really really really don't like that guy.  When 200 D-1 coaches were asked before this season who where the craziest fans in the world, 53 percent said kentucky followed in second by unc at a small 14 percent.  No one compares to kentucky.


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"I have no interest in making blacks equal to whites, they are of a lesser quality and this I am sure of." -Abraham Lincoln
"You don't win a war by dying for your country, you win a war by making the other person die for theirs." -General George Patton
 


Posts: 372 | Posted: 6:15 PM on December 5, 2002 | IP
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And the reason camden indoor seems so crazy is because it only holds around 5000 people, rupp arena holds 24000.  With that many people in that small of a place a mouse farting would sound loud.  Hell my gym at my old high school holds more people then cameron indoor.


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"I have no interest in making blacks equal to whites, they are of a lesser quality and this I am sure of." -Abraham Lincoln
"You don't win a war by dying for your country, you win a war by making the other person die for theirs." -General George Patton
 


Posts: 372 | Posted: 6:28 PM on December 5, 2002 | IP
dsadevil

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cameron's got what's called atmosphere. and I've never seen anyone as wild as the crazies at any uky game (trust me, my bros a rabid wildcat fan).
Besides, Coach K can kick the crap out of tubby any day.


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 10:26 PM on December 5, 2002 | IP
hooyah

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Wow, I had to read back a long way to find out what this thread is all about.  Is it still affirmative action?

It seems that this forum should be called, "Whites or Blacks, which is better?"

I think dsa made the best point that could be made in the very beginning of this thread.  Saying that AFF ACT is not used to fulfill quotas anymore, but rather is based on a points, merit system, which gives minorities a slight advantage.

Actually it's not really even an advantage, minorities are still disadvantaged because less of them are as successful as whites.  So the few points that they gain are really negligible.

I think its okay to give minorites a few extra "points" for being at a disadvantage, but not okay for companies, colleges, etc. to give preferential treatment to minorities just to make a quota.


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A just government has nothing to fear from an armed citizenry!
 


Posts: 110 | Posted: 02:04 AM on December 10, 2002 | IP
Chai

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Sure, many minorities are not very well off now, but it's not like that's completely out of their power. If you want to move up in society badly enough, you'll find a way to do it. That's what scholarships, etc. are for, and they are great. However, it is simply stupid to give someone who is less qualified for a job when someone who is middle class or upper class applied for a job and was better, right?                                                                          And affirmitive action itself is simply silly. The blacks and the Hispanics and the other minorities were all dicriminated against at one point or another. Then wouldn't it make sense to get back at your oppressers, not the second and third generation who really had nothing to do with the conflict? Who is the KKK lynching today? Where are blacks not allowed to enter anymore? I've never seen a "Colored Only" sign in my life, but I sure wouldn't be surprised if I'm not accepted to the college of my choice because I'm white. I thought that the freedom movements of MLK Jr., Ceaser Chavez, and everyone else was for equality of ALL people. Silly me ! I forgot that ALL people simply included minorities. I guess whites are an 'inferior race'. Nobody's spotless, but punshing one generation for another generation's actions is lunacy.


 


Posts: 30 | Posted: 8:53 PM on December 10, 2002 | IP
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I applied for a job today that supported affirmative action. I am a black female. I was a good canidate for the position because I had the required experience, but I must say that I feel uncomfortable with the fact that if I am hired others in the company may think it is because of affirmative action. I honestly don't know if it is a good thing or bad thing in this day and age. Yes black women especially are discriminated against. However, if you work hard just like anyone else, you will prevail. I don't know if hard work comes with having white skin. Plus I don't know that all blacks actually do work twice as hard as whites to be successful. I have always been a good employee and worked hard and well but I 've seen white people work just as hard. I've seen lazy white people and lazy black people. It is all about the individual person. Color should make no difference when it comes to experience and landing a job, but unfortunately, the majority of corporate America is dominated by the white male. And we are talking older males who grew up with the stereotypes of the 50's.  You don't know how fair they are with the hiring process. You only have statistical data to rely on concerning the employee rate of minorities vs. whites. We all have to feed our families and care for ourselves. Afirmative action may not be the best way... but it is needed until we can come up with a better way. So we should unite and stop complaining about Afirmative action and try to figure out a solution that we all will be happy with, if it is even possible among the human race at all.
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 11:30 PM on December 18, 2002 | IP
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[color=navy][b] I am doing a paper on affirmative action. Does anyone know where I might be able to find more information on the history of affirmative action and what caused it to go in effect etc? Please send your answer as soon as possible, as it's a very important paper. Thank you.
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 4:01 PM on January 6, 2003 | IP
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if someone is qualified for a job then they should get it, not because of the colour of their skin or gender
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 1:06 PM on January 9, 2003 | IP
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Hmm... I don't think anyone posted that on average, because of affirmative action, a white college applicant stands a 33% chance of getting into the college, while the black college applicant stands a 100% chance of getting in. That's for college, but I bet the figure on jobs would be fairly close.


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Don't tell me I'm conservative...I know that!
 


Posts: 351 | Posted: 8:42 PM on January 9, 2003 | IP
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Broker says: "I bet the figure on jobs would be fairly close".

The idea that racism has vanished in the US is plainly and dangerously wrong.

Researchers at MIT and the University of Chicago made up fake job applicants and resumes, randomly assigning to each one a name which skews toward African American or white population groups. There were Kristens and Brads, together with Tamikas and Tyrones, all of whom had equivalent resumes and applied to the same jobs (in Boston and Chicago). From the middle of 2001 to the middle of 2002, these researchers submitted about 5,000 such applications and then tracked which of the phantom applicants were called for interviews. The only way to distinguish these applicants was by the presumed ethnicity of their names.

The results? Applicants with names which skew white were more likely to be called for an interview: 50% more likely, in fact.Interviews were requested for 10.1 percent of applicants with white-sounding names and only 6.7 percent of those with black-sounding names. This research suggests that being perceived as non-white in the job market is a real disadvantage; or, put the other way round, being perceived as white in the job market confers unmerited privilege.


 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 04:54 AM on January 16, 2003 | IP
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[b]Quote from Day_Am_STR8 at 6:44 PM on August 18, 2002 :2- Should one group LOWER their standards to allow a second group access to an equal playing field?[/color]
[color=navy]Our government thinks so!  However, it looks like something is working in the background to actually reduce the improvement of society.
After all - WHY ELSE would ANYONE prefer UNHEALTHY PHYSICAL CONDITIONS It is A preferred situation in Black culture!

CONSIDER THIS: What most of America calls "FAT" unhealthy! However, Black Society minimalizes it by calling it "THICK" and preferring it as exceptable.

That really confuses me!




This is the funniest thing I have ever seen in my life...
Are you serious...
Do you think it is healthy for women to starve themselves in pursuit of a standard of beauty that they will never be able to meet..

Consider this...
The average American woman white or black is a size 14...
That means that she weighs about 170 + depending on height

Ok ...

I think that Blacks are just more realistic as far as their beauty standards..

I don't think our standards are lower at all....

As a matter of fact we are revolutionary in the sense that we will not let the media and magazines tell us what is beautiful... and what is not...

And the average American is not healthy... we all eat at McDonalds....
Those are unfair... assumptions that you have about blacks....

Let's consider this for a minute and everybody please try to follow me..

Lets look at the beauty industry please....

Who runs the beauty industry...
Men...
Our best designers ...the ones who set the standards for what is beautiful are white men....
And I love them... honestly....

but please lets look at the fact that most if not all of them are gay...

What do gay men like?
other men..
When you look at the skinny waffy models....
What do they look like.. Aside from the long hair ... They look like pretty pettite men.. They have small breast ....the body weight and shape of a man... and no hips... and no ass....
Women naturally have more body fat that men that's what gives us our curves...
but gay men like men ...
so they like figures that don't have curves... and zero  body fat....

So in essence many american woman are striving for an ideal that they can never achieve...

We are not men...

we are women...

Black men appreciate women who look like women and not like men!@
And I have met a few white men who appreciate it too..
Despite what the media and the fashion industry... tell them they should like....  



 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 10:29 AM on January 21, 2003 | IP
aasha_

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Most of the arguments against affirmative action are based on three assumptions...

You believe that Whites are losing jobs or being harmed because of Affirmative Action?

You believe that people who get jobs because of Aff. Action are less qualified?

You believe that blacks in general are less qualified....

I keep reading the same question...

1. Why should a person less qualified get a job over a person who is more qualified...

I didn't think that Affirmative Action was about hiring less qualified people... but many of the people who have responded against Affirmative Action have given this as their reason for being against it....

But I guess if you believe that blacks in general are inferior then you will  believe that Affir. Action is about is about hiring less qualified people.  

Also, many of you have stated that white job applicants or college applicants are being refused or hurt because of Affirmative Action...

Where has this happened....

I don't think young white kids are having a problem seeking higher education... where is this happening...
I don't think young white kids are facing any problems finding jobs.. Where is this happening ...

Many of your arguments are based on Unsubstantiated fears... and  ignorant assumptions about blacks....

To the idiot who keeps saying that whites are 80% of the population....
Please tell me this...
If blacks constitute 12% of the US populous then that means at max we could only take 12%  of the jobs.... Take into account the fact that some of that 12% are children, elderly, people in jail, People who don't work for various reasons... Blacks don't constitute much of the workforce nor do we constitute a high number of college admissions?

So why do you feel so threatened by Affirmative action!!!...Numerically speaking we could never be a threat to you and we could never take all of the jobs or all of the college slots... So how does  Affirmative Action hurt you.... exactly... ? We can't even take 12% by your own stats...








(Edited by aasha_ 1/23/2003 at 2:49 PM).
 


Posts: 29 | Posted: 3:12 PM on January 21, 2003 | IP
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http://acetjcom.vwh.net/rj/Theory/Carlyle.htm

The Best Enemies Money Can Buy

From Hitler To Saddam Hussein to Osama bin Laden – Insider Connections and the Bush Family’s Partnership with Killers of Americans

Brown Brothers, Harriman - BNL- and the Carlyle Group

Since the Sept. 11 attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, major media powerhouses and the increasingly influential alternative media alike have begun to focus attention on Bush family connections and a long history of arming and financing America’s attackers in the months and years prior to the outbreak of war. Recent stories in the Wall Street Journal (Sept. 27 & 28, 2001), ABC News (Oct. 1, 2001), as well as a host of reports from so-called alternative news sources have begun to focus attention on the Bush family’s profit-making role in creating and arming our enemies.


---

Adolph Hitler


George W. Bush’s grandfather, Prescott Bush, was the Managing Director of the investment bank Brown Brothers, ...and  served as the principal funding arm in helping to finance Adolph Hitler’s rise to power starting in 1923. This included direct funding for the SS and SA channeled through a variety of German firms. Prescott Bush, through associations with the Hamburg-Amerika Steamship line,... used the Union Bank Corporation to funnel vast quantities of money to the Nazis and to manage their American interests.
Early support for Hitler came from Prescott Bush through the Hamburg-Amerika Steamship line -- also funded by Brown Bothers -- that funneled large sums of money and weapons to Hitler’s storm troopers in the 1920s.


Furthermore, a 1942 U.S. government investigative report that surfaced during 1945 Senate hearings found that the Union Bank, with Prescott Bush on the board, ... produced:

-        50.8% of Nazi Germany’s pig iron

-        41.4% of Nazi Germany’s universal plate

-        36% of Nazi Germany’s heavy plate

-        38.5% of Nazi Germany’s galvanized sheet

-        45.5% of Nazi Germany’s pipes and tubes

-        22.1% of Nazi Germany’s wire

-        35% of Nazi Germany’s explosives

The business relationships established by Bush in 1923 continued even after the war started until they became so offensive and overt as to warrant seizure by the U.S. government under the Trading with the Enemy Act in 1942.

In 1942, “Under the Trading with the Enemy Act, the government took over Union Banking Corporation, in which Bush was a director. The U.S. Alien Property Custodian seized Union Banking Corp.’s stock shares…

Prescott Bush went on to become an influential Republican Senator from Connecticut who went on to be a regular golfing partner of President Dwight Eisenhower. His attorneys were the lawyers John Foster and Allen Dulles, the later became the CIA Director under Eisenhower.

Saddam Hussein

After becoming President in January 1989, Prescott Bush’s son, George Herbert Walker Bush – father of our current President – authorized a series of programs that not only armed Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein but also provided him with technology that assisted in his development of chemical weapons like Sarin gas, and biological weapons, which he still possesses. ... Bush directives and policies, including relationships with the Bank of Credit and Commerce International (BCCI), and the Banca Nazionale del Lavoro (BNL) were directly and deliberately responsible for creating the army the U.S. fought in 1991.

A story by Russ W. Baker, in the March/April issue the Colombia Journalism Review (CJR), provided the most compelling overview of Iraqgate that I have seen.

“ABC News Nightline opened last June 9 with words to make the heart stop ‘It is becoming increasingly clear,’ said a grave Ted Koppel, ‘that George Bush, operating largely behind the scenes throughout the 1980s, initiated and supported much of the financing, intelligence, and military help that built Saddam’s Iraq into the aggressive power that the United States ultimately had to destroy…

"We’ve learned that a vast network of companies, based in the U.S. and abroad, eagerly fed the Iraqi war machine right up until August 1990, when Saddam invaded Kuwait.

“And we’ve learned that the obscure Atlanta Branch of Italy’s largest bank, Banca Nazionale del Lavoro, relying partly on U.S. taxpayer-guaranteed loans, funneled $5 billion to Iraq from 1985 to 1989. ... U.S. taxpayers have been left holding the bag for what looks like $2 billion in defaulted loans to Iraq.

“… In fact, we now know that in February 1990, then Attorney General Dick Thornburgh [appointed by George H.W. Bush] blocked U.S. investigators from traveling to Rome and Istanbul to pursue the case…

“… As New York Times columnist William Safire argued last December 7, ‘Iraqgate is uniquely horrendous: a scandal about the Systematic abuse of power by misguided leaders of three democratic nations [The U.S., Britain, and Italy] to secretly finance the arms buildup of a dictator.”


The Carlyle Group, the Bushes and bin Laden

The warnings about the Carlyle Group, the nation’s 11th largest defense contractor, and the Bushes came long before the World Trade Center attacks. The Carlyle Group is a closely held corporation, exempt, for that reason, from reporting its affairs to the Securities and Exchange Commission. Little is known of what it actually does except that it buys and sells defense contractors. As of October 4, 2001, it has removed its corporate web site from the World Wide Web making further investigation through that channel impossible. Its Directors include Frank Carlucci, former Reagan Secretary of Defense; James Baker, former Bush Secretary of State; and Richard Darman, a former White House aide to Ronald Reagan and Republican Party operative.

On March 3, 2001, just weeks after George W Bush’s inauguration, the conservative Washington lobbying group Judicial Watch issued a press release. It said:

“(Washington, D.C.) Judicial Watch, the public interest law firm that investigates and prosecutes government abuse and corruption, called on former President George Herbert Walker Bush to resign immediately from the Carlyle Group, a private investment firm, while his son President George W. Bush is in office. Today's New York Times reported that the elder Bush is an "ambassador" for the $12 billion private investment firm and last year traveled to the Middle East on its behalf. The former president also helped the firm in South Korea.

“The New York Times reported that as compensation, the elder Bush is allowed to buy a stake in the Carlyle Group's investments, which include ownership in at least 164 companies throughout the world (thereby by giving the current president an indirect benefit). James Baker, the former Secretary of State who served as President George W. Bush's point man in Florida's election dispute, is a partner in the firm. The firm also gave George W. Bush help in the early 1990's when it placed him on one of its subsidiary's board of directors.

"This is simply inappropriate. Former President Bush should immediately resign from the Carlyle Group because it is an obvious conflict of interest. Any foreign government or foreign investor trying to curry favor with the current Bush Administration is sure to throw business to the Carlyle Group. And with the former President Bush promoting the firm's investments abroad, foreign nationals could understandably confuse the Carlyle Group's interests with the interests of the United States government," stated Larry Klayman, Judicial Watch Chairman and General Counsel.

"Questions are now bound to be raised if the recent Bush Administration change in policy towards Iraq has the fingerprints of the Carlyle Group, which is trying to gain investments from other Arab countries who [sic] would presumably benefit from the new policy," stated Judicial Watch President Tom Fitton.”


.... Osama bin Laden’s attacks on the WTC and Pentagon, with the resulting massive increase in the U.S. defense budget have just made his family a great big pile of money.




(Edited by aasha_ 1/24/2003 at 12:30 PM).
 


Posts: 29 | Posted: 3:52 PM on January 23, 2003 | IP
thistownwilleatu

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You do realize that NO ONE is going to read that.


-------
"The greatest evil is not done in those sordid dens of evil that Dickens loved to paint ... but is conceived and ordered (moved, seconded, carried and minuted) in clear, carpeted, warmed, well-lighted offices, by quiet men with white collars and cut fingernails and smooth-shaven cheeks who do not need to raise their voices." - Thomas Merton

"I thank my God for every remembrance of you." - Paul
 


Posts: 341 | Posted: 01:44 AM on January 24, 2003 | IP
Cool-Hand-Dave

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exactly what i was just thinking


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Cool Hand Dave
 


Posts: 134 | Posted: 02:05 AM on January 24, 2003 | IP
aasha_

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Ok I cut it down just a bit...

but please read it... take the time to inform yourself... this man can literally bring the world to WWIII... His grandfather is responsible for funding Hiter and causing that World War....

I literally broke down and cried when I finnised reading that article.... I can not believe that these are the times in which we live ... I can't believe that such corruption exists... who can stop them....?
We went to a war with Iraq in 1990 because Bush Sr. illegally  funded Suddam's army...

And then before him his grandfather funded Hitler's army.... What the hell is going on!

Why aren't they in jail?

And now Bush Jr. wants to take us in to distroy that country some more....
Come on.

We know Korea has weapons of mass destruction and they are threatening to use them if we try to attack them militarily.... and we are so threatened by that ...that we choose to deal with them diplomatically.... but GW Bush claims that Iraq has these weapons ... so why is he not afraid to invade Iraq.... what ever it is that Iraq has does not scare Bush enough to deter him from attacking... Like he is afraid to attack North Korea....

Yesterday, Bush's press secretary say's that Bush doesn't care what the protestors say and he doesn't care what the polls say ... he is going to attack Iraq anyway...if he thinks that's what's for the good of the nation...

Are we now in a dictatorship...

One man does not determine the good of a nation... He acts like he is a King or something....

And it seems as if nobody is challenging him... the media doesn't ask those questions... people are just sitting back and letting this happen...


(Edited by aasha_ 1/24/2003 at 12:54 PM).
 


Posts: 29 | Posted: 12:33 PM on January 24, 2003 | IP
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Affirmative action opponents might distinguish racial preferences from geographic and parental ones by claiming that, given this country's terrible history, there is something especially toxic about classifying people by race. The problem with that retort is that Republicans and conservatives are perfectly willing to classify people by race when it serves policy goals they like. Many conservative commentators have endorsed some racial profiling of black motorists, given that those drivers are statistically more likely to be transporting drugs, and some racial profiling of black or Hispanic teenagers, given that those teens are more likely to be selling them. And, since September 11, 2001, numerous Republican politicians and conservative pundits have demanded the profiling of Arabs and Muslims on the grounds that they are statistically more likely to be terrorists. Whether such profiling is effective is not the point. After all, Republicans don't primarily criticize affirmative action as ineffective. They criticize it as unjust, as a violation of the sacred principle of color-blindness. Yet, in other contexts--when color-blindness would undermine their security, rather than black kids' upward mobility--Republicans all of a sudden don't deem color-blindness so sacred after all.
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 07:15 AM on January 28, 2003 | IP
Yurdogg

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i dont know much about this topic, ive only been researching it for a few weeks because it came up on a debate i am doing soon, from what i know affirmative action is mainly quotas, which is the percentage or alotted number of people who must be included in certain proceedings, such as business; workplace; volunteer organizations and others. now the main point of affirmative action (from now i will call it a.a. because i dont not want to type it out) a.a. is wrong. setting a percentage of people that have to work somewhere based on religion, gender, race, ethnicity, nationality or otherwise is completely wrong. what it is basically saying, that if my jewish (i am also jewish) freind, or black freind, or mexican freind has never had any experiance working in a certain area, and i have had a year of experiance, then my freind would get the job over me. because he IS of another race/religion.

now my debate team is opposing a.a. we are the opposition, and the proposition will argue many things. we are using the link at the top of this thread for our main source as in what to counter, and what to use. honestly the main point

why are we still trying to correct/fix/still talking about a bicentennial problem that doesn't exist anymore?

i want to give a thank you to Mr. Alan Bakke for bringing up the term of reverse discrimination.

many people still attempt to argue that if they are african american, and their white freind gets hired..they will try to argue that it was discriminant, racist..what not.

i however am completely opposed to this topic and would like to see your views on it.


-------
--What now?
 


Posts: 3 | Posted: 7:33 PM on February 11, 2003 | IP
duckjaws

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First of all aasha, why are you judging a man for what his grandfather did?  I know this has nothing to do with affirmitive action, which makes me wonder why you brought it up.  To blame one generation for the actions of another generation is not only prejuidiced but it's just wrong.  Wether I support Bush or not it's stupid to judge him based on past generations.  My god, no wonder your other posts talk about how whites today should take the blame for what their grandparents and other generations did.

People are all different!

Grow up
 


Posts: 20 | Posted: 11:57 PM on February 11, 2003 | IP
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And as far as dictatorship goes, do you even know how the goverment works?  He can't declare anything untill he gets premissison from congress.  Congress's job is to protect and please the people they represent so if you have an issue get involved and call or write your representative.  Don't just sit back and complain, do something!
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 12:07 AM on February 12, 2003 | IP
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Quote from duckjaws at 11:57 PM on February 11, 2003 :
First of all aasha, why are you judging a man for what his grandfather did?  I know this has nothing to do with affirmitive action, which makes me wonder why you brought it up.  To blame one generation for the actions of another generation is not only prejuidiced but it's just wrong.  Wether I support Bush or not it's stupid to judge him based on past generations.  My god, no wonder your other posts talk about how whites today should take the blame for what their grandparents and other generations did.

People are all different!

Grow up


I don't blame him for what his father did... I blame him for choosing to ignore what his father did and how it affects the situation we are in today...

Bushes Daddy be-friended Saddam.... helped him get into power and sold weapons to him....
Then Saddam turns against Kuwait and we ended up having to go war....

Bush Jr....

Ignores the fact that the only reason why we had to defend Kuwait is because his Daddy fucked up and help them acquire weapons of mass destruction and chemical and biological weapons...

That's why we have to go to war today...
Saddam is a mad man but he wouldn't have weapon's of mass destruction if Bush Sr. didn't help him acquire them....
That is a matter of public record...

You are telling me to grow up.. but i think you need to learn to think more critically ....

You are not a good leader if you the cause problems that you ultimately have to go to war to resolve...

Bush Jr's foreign policy sucks..

he is going to cause WW!!!

Is your life better now....?

People are having to protect their homes in case of Biological or chemical terror attack..
Do you really want to live in fear...
Dummy!!!

They are both failures at foreign policy...


We should be going after Osama bin Laden...
We haven't found him yet...
And everybody is scared because terrorist are in our country plotting against us... and idiot Bush is starting a war against Iraq... instead of securing our homeland from Terror...

does that make since to you... our first priority is to Find Al Queta and Osama...
Make our borders safe...
And get any potential terrorist out of our country...

We could do that....

Instead... Our borders are not safe and we have terrorist in our country and Bushg is trying to go to war with Iraq... because... "he tried to kill my daddy"  instead of making our homeland safe...  



 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 4:33 PM on February 12, 2003 | IP
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Quote from duckjaws at 11:57 PM on February 11, 2003 :
First of all aasha, why are you judging a man for what his grandfather did?  I know this has nothing to do with affirmitive action, which makes me wonder why you brought it up.  To blame one generation for the actions of another generation is not only prejuidiced but it's just wrong.  Wether I support Bush or not it's stupid to judge him based on past generations.  My god, no wonder your other posts talk about how whites today should take the blame for what their grandparents and other generations did.

People are all different!

Grow up



I'm sorry.. I have to revisit this...

If my grandfather was responsible for financing Hilter....bringing him  to power.... causing millions of Jews to die and causing WW3...
And my Dad sold weapons .... biological and chemical agents to a mad man like Saddam causing the Gulf war...

And I am a draft dogging.... drunk driving... coke head... who likes to sentence people to death...

Would you want me to run your country...
I didn't say he didn't deserve to exist...

But his family has a long history of causing world wide chaos and distruction ....

I don't think a person like that should be running the most powerful nation in the world... and i'm sure history will agree with me...
mark my words...

 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 4:49 PM on February 12, 2003 | IP
Yurdogg

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i dont think you are fully correct, just because a persons history and parents/grandparents did something incorrect does not mean that he does things like that. our president has handled these crisis' quite well in my opinion, this may however be because i am completely a conservative republican.

now tell me, whoever you are that just posted..did you vote? and if so, who did you vote for?

one more question how did we get on this topic of the Bush family and/or foreign policy and why is it in the thread belonging to affirmative action. please take your worthless comments defacing our president and the past presidencies elswhere. please keep it out of this thread. thank you

-- USA


(Edited by Yurdogg 2/12/2003 at 5:43 PM).


-------
--What now?
 


Posts: 3 | Posted: 5:40 PM on February 12, 2003 | IP
duckjaws

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Jimmy Carter sold weapons to Afghanistan.  CIA operatives trained and put the Taliban into power.  Just because something is a threat now doesn't mean it was a threat then.  

Second, Colan Powell just delivered twenty sound reasons and evidence for the fight against Iraq.

Now if you are pro-peace and think in spite of this evidence that war is not necessary when peace might solve the situation thats fine.

Now if you just don't want to fight out of personal fear well thats understandable.

But if you choose to ignore factual evidence and replace it with a unjustified, unproven and biased idea that he's doing it for his daddy then thats just pathetic.

You blame a man for things he didn't do and you try to make him the Hitler of the new milleneum by ignoring facts you don't like and spouting off ones you do.

Go back to affirmitive action  
 


Posts: 20 | Posted: 7:19 PM on February 12, 2003 | IP
mingpicket

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this forum has been going on for a while, and i didn't read all of it, but i want to hop in. so if i repeat things already said, please forgive me.
personally, i am not a fan of affirmative action. it is a form of racial discrimination, simple as that. i don't call it "reverse discrimination." that implies that it is different in some way from "regular discrimination." it's just as wrong, maybe even more so because people stand by and let it happen and act like it is ok.
for many who take advantage of aff.act., they don't deserve the college admissions or jobs they get. it is not a remedy for the past or present. it is not a "necessary evil" either. it is just an evil. those who are cheated by this "zero-sum game" are victims of racism, just as much as anyone who suffered from jim crow laws or slavery. and while they might not suffer to the same extent, that does not make it right. a greater injustice does not justify a lesser one. Two wrongs have never added up to a right.
besides, i know personally that i would be much more fulfilled and pleased with my accomplishments if i knew that i earned them. knowing, or even thinking, that i was handed something merely because my skin retains more melanin than others' would make me feel lowly and unworthy, and even pathetic.
and "cultural diversity" is a load of crap. "skin pigment diversity" is the only effect produced by aff.act. cultural diversity requires people from different countries with different experiences and different ways of thinking. i have lived with cultural diversity my entire life. if a black person from the west met a black person from the east coast, that would be cultural diversity. if a black person and a white person came from the same town, that is skin pigment diversity. TRUE EQUALITY MUST BE COLOR BLIND.
and before i forget, george Dub-ya bush is a moron. it's that simple. i don't judge him based on his grandfather or his father. i judge him based on himself. he is a simplistic minded baffoon, and he is gonna plunge our country into a "war" that it doesn't need. what happened to our country being the peaceful arbiter who steps in to protect those being bullied?? now we are the greedy capitalists with itchy palms. why is cheap oil the only important thing in the world? why not use better sources of energy? each day the world is bombarded with more sunlight energy than we could ever use, and instead of take advantage of it, we decide that spilling blood and destroying the environment is a better solution. what the hell is wrong with us?



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"There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism."
Teddy Roosevelt
 


Posts: 1 | Posted: 12:53 PM on February 13, 2003 | IP
Yurdogg

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i completely agree with you in everything you just said...EXCEPt for that little excerpt on Dub-ya...he may be small minded at times...but this whole war crisis thing that is going on, is completely right. he is doing the right thing..there is a threat of chemical warfare...a chance that we could be bombed at any point in time..so in defense..a war alert is established..he may not be handling it the right way by sending weapons inspectors..however most of the things he does are correctt....anyway

Back to affirmative action


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--What now?
 


Posts: 3 | Posted: 5:28 PM on February 14, 2003 | IP
Manaia

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Sorry I didn't have the time nor the patience to read all that is written on this subject. Please be patient if I bring up old arguments but I think I bring up things that many of you don't understand.

First off let me address the fact that I'm a conservative for Affirmative Action. Second that I'm a first generation immigrant and I'm not white.

Now first off they shouldn't call it affirmative action but affirmative consideration. It's in consideration that so many minorities have suffered in the past that they are trying to amend. Words have a strong power on people's emotions and I think that if we would use the right words then it would have a better effect.

Something that people don't know and don't understand is how it feels to be a minority in the US. If you are a minority you are more familiar with the "white culture" then "whites" are of ours. The fact that you think social or economic class is the same for all races shows how much we need to diversify universities. The fact of the matter you will never know how much bias, discrimination, and racism exists in America today. It isn't even close to the levels that it was in the 60's but it still exists. The purpose to diversify is to help counteract some of that. If you don't believe there is any racism, bias, or prejudice in America then you are proof of the need for diversity.

Another reason we need diversity is because the belief is how do we help correct social injustices of the past and not punishing those of the current system. Allowing a few people in because of their race would only eliminate approximately 5% of all applicants. Applicants on the borderline that would have been accepted if not for the diversity policies. The belief is that if the social injustices of the past had not happened that those students would have had better resources and lesser disadvantges and would merit acceptance. That if the past injustices had not happened they would have been that much farther ahead and then have "merited" acceptance and those students eliminated would have been eliminated anyways.

Also standardized tests are racially, culturally, and genderally bias. Until recently most standardized test were made of entirely white males. That is why women in general don't do as well on standardized tests as men overall. If there was a group of people raised, educated, cultured, the same as me and we created a test, who do you think of all the test takers would do the best? Probably those that did have the same background as I did. How do you overcome differences like that?

Why do Professors want participation from everyone in the class? Everyone has different points of view. If you admitted only a few merit based minorities then the campus wouldn't be very diverse. That means that class discussions would mostly be by people that are the same race, culture, color, and probably similar backgrounds. How much perspective would you gain then? When would they ever become educated about "other cultures" or people? Being a minority we bring something with us that whites would bring to a African, Asian, South American, and Pacific Island dominant setting. If you don't understand that, just skip the rest of my post.

Now to address the success rates of minorities in universities. If you accept a more "merit based" pool of applicants into a school compared to a pool of people that were accepted less on the merits of course there is a huge disparity between minorities suceeding (a merit based process). It does not mean all accepted that do not make the "merit" requirements are not qualified. There are some that do get accepted that cannot handle the competitiveness and should not have been accepted. I concede that. The fact is that many that are accepted merit based drop out as well so numbers are not a good indicator. The fact of the matter many are accepted even though there scores didn't merit it. They do suceed and add to the school. Also statistically the pool is much smaller. So every drop out affects the statistics dramatically. It can be very misleading due to the size of the pool compared to the larger pool. Everyone knows the larrger the pool the more accurate the statistic. Also who do you think is more prepared for college the students that are second, third, fourth, fifth generation college student that have a family support group or the ones that come from a first generation college family? How do you think it feels to live away from home in a predominantly white area when you're not white? We have to learn a whole new culture and many times language. We have to learn to adapt to teachers mentality that may not be able to follow our mentatlity because they weren't raised the same as us. Unless you have lived in a different culture that isn't white you wouldn't understand further proving my point for the need of diversity.

I won't go into the economic and disadvantaged backgrounds that many minorities face. I believe that those are pretty evident. There are my views I have many more but I'll give them after because I'm tired of typing. Oh yeah sorry for the typos but I'm not a perfectionist. You know what I mean and that is enough.



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Mana'ia

"All I ask is the chance to prove money won't make me happy"
 


Posts: 7 | Posted: 08:28 AM on May 5, 2003 | IP
StormCrow

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First off let me address the fact that I'm a conservative for Affirmative Action.

This statement alone proves that you're not much of a conservative.

Now first off they shouldn't call it affirmative action but affirmative consideration.

In response to your second first statement- Affermative Action is perfectly named. The word consideration would imply that a choice is still present. That is of course, not the case. This is a government regulation on independant businesses that declares they MUST have a certain number of ethnic minorities. It's hard for me to beleive that you people don't see the double standard here. If a black man doesn't get hired because he's black, it's racism. But if a white man doesn't get hired because he's white, it's reperations. That's bull shit.


Something that people don't know and don't understand is how it feels to be a minority in the US

If you don't feel that you fit in because of your ethnic decent then, honestly I think part of the problem lies with you. This is america, and we've forgotten that we're all here, as one. The beauty of our country is that we're based on a plethera of cultures and thus we are unique. As an ethnic minority, whatever minority it may be, you cannot come here and expect to change the cultural pattern that has been established. You came to america because it is a land of opprotunity and freedoms of a thousand sorts.

If you are a minority you are more familiar with the "white culture"

You mean the american culture? You better be familiar with it if you're to make it your home. If I moved to south africa, I would be expected to adapt to their culture. How is it fair to expect america to change to the culture of thsoe who imigrate here?

The fact that you think social or economic class is the same for all races shows how much we need to diversify universities.

The fact that you think we need more diversity shows how suseptible you've been to liberal horse shit, and how little you care about america. The strength of our country has always been competition. If you want to be recognized in america, it has always been achieved because you work harder than most of the people around you, and you seize opprotunity and WORK your way to the top. That's the real american way. Remember we're a capitalist society and our strength lies in our commitment to competition. If you can't compete you should work harder.

The belief is that if the social injustices of the past had not happened that those students would have had better resources and lesser disadvantges and would merit acceptance.

Well I'm Irish. Do a little research into the history of the rail roads and how the irish and chinese were treated. This is a bullshit excuse, and liberal policy meant as a tool of oppression not equality. If you don't understand why I'm saying that. Let me know and i'd be happy to explain. I come from a relatively poor white family. By your thoughts, the lack of resources my family has access too should determine how successful I can be in life. Unfortunately for liberals I understand that despite their best efforts this is still america and I will succeed based on how hard i work in school and life.

Also standardized tests are racially, culturally, and genderally bias.

Standarized tests are written by the same people who standarized learning. If you learned what you were taught in school you'll do fine on the tests. If an ethnic minority board created a test, gave me what I needed to know, I would expect myself to do just as well as anyone from the ethnicity of the board. If I didn't do as well as I thought I should have, I would go back, study harder and take the test again. I sure as hell wouldn't expect someone to accept me for something I didn't earn.

How do you overcome differences like that?

Work harder like everyone else in america.

That means that class discussions would mostly be by people that are the same race, culture, color, and probably similar backgrounds. How much perspective would you gain then?

What does cultural perspective have to do with math, biology, american history, literature and so forth? So because the majority of a class is white we should be able to relate to each other and give our perspectives because there's not enough diveristy? If I want to learn about african, asian, european or middle eastern culture I'll sign up for a culture class that offers me the cultural views on the subject. Here in america, you should also  have to accept OUR cultural views.

It does not mean all accepted that do not make the "merit" requirements are not qualified.

It's not about being qualified, it's about being most qualified. If I had a 4.0 GPA, with honors and graduated validictorian of my class, with a 3.8 GPA in a masters program, studying for my doctorate of english, with high comendations from most of my proffessors, I would be more qualified than a minority attending his first year of college coming out of highschool with a 3.6 GPA, but thanks to Affermative Action, if the college we're both applying to doesn't have enough of his ethnic minority then he gets in and I don't even though I'd bring the college more money, and my acheivements are more meritous. That's the problem with affermative action. Like wise I'm sure that alot of minorities don't NEED affermative action to get into college, I'm sure they busted their ass all through highschool and earned their way in.

How do you think it feels to live away from home in a predominantly white area when you're not white? We have to learn a whole new culture and many times language. We have to learn to adapt to teachers mentality that may not be able to follow our mentatlity because they weren't raised the same as us.

Aren't you discribing exactly what would be expected of a white person moving to any foreign country? Including another white country. If I moved to London, I'd have to adapt to a whole new culture. You moved here, you should adapt to our culture. We shouldn't all have to adapt to yours.

Unless you have lived in a different culture that isn't white you wouldn't understand further proving my point for the need of diversity.

Well if you believe that, then why don't we even out everyone else too....let's get a good religious diversity in some muslim countries, let's spread white people out in africa and asia as well. We wouldn't want anyone to miss out on our ethnic diversity. That would be terrible. How dare people ignore my culture and make me adapt to theirs! Do you see the idiocy in that?


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"The Way of the Warrior is the two-fold path of pen and sword. Even if a man possess no natural inclination he may be a warrior by sticking assidously to both divisions of the Way."

-Shinmen Musashi
 


Posts: 112 | Posted: 4:55 PM on May 20, 2003 | IP
    
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