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In our society today it is NOT equal. Just because we are drinking at the same drinking fountains and have inter-racial marriages doesn't mean anything. How many years have African Americans been oppressed? Hundreds of years. Thirty years working on equality does not even compare to those hundreds of years. It is a work in progress. To stop now would be to say that every has an equal chance. And everyone does  not. Why are the majority white population so incredibly afraid to sacrifice a couple things for equality. Above anything in society I believe  equality to be the most important. If you are fine with feeling superior than I would believe you to be nothing but a racist uneducated person. White people have been oppressing almost every kind of race since the begginning of time. We even tried to whipe out the ENTIRE Native American population.
        NOTHING is equal. Most of the black population are in ghettos and not recieving a good enough education to even apply for college. Higher class white move out of these areas and once again the line between the poor and the rich becomes even larger. If you claim to be a person for equality, than do your part and fight for the rights of EVERYONE to achieve TRUE equality.[size=12][color=black]
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 1:29 PM on May 22, 2003 | IP
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Basically you are saying ‘there are a lot of poor blacks and a lot of rich whites, therefore we should be nicer to blacks than whites to make up for the economic difference.’  This argument is completely stupid.  There are rich blacks!  There are poor whites!  If I wanted to help poor people, would I go and find out whether blue-eyed people or brown-eyed people are poorer, and then just help people with that color eyes whether they were poor or not?  airkdp@aol.com
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 05:03 AM on May 23, 2003 | IP
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“This statement alone proves that you're not much of a conservative.”

Wow, you’re so perceptive. Since California doesn’t allow Affirmative action then they can’t be very liberal. I don’t really care about what you consider conservative. If we have to live to your standard of conservatism then I don’t want to be.

“Affermative Action is perfectly named. The word consideration would imply that a choice is still present. That is of course, not the case. This is a government regulation on independant businesses that declares they MUST have a certain number of ethnic minorities. It's hard for me to beleive that you people don't see the double standard here. If a black man doesn't get hired because he's black, it's racism. But if a white man doesn't get hired because he's white, it's reparations”

Again your perception and knowledge of the subject amazes me. The word consideration as it comes from webster’s dictionary:
1 : continuous and careful thought
2 a : a matter weighed or taken into account when formulating an opinion or plan b : a taking into account
3 : thoughtful and sympathetic regard
4 : an opinion obtained by reflection
5 : ESTEEM, REGARD
6 a : RECOMPENSE, PAYMENT b : the inducement to a contract or other legal transaction; specifically : an act or forbearance or the promise thereof done or given by one party in return for the act or promise of another

Where in there does it say choices? Where does it infer choices? There is no quota system allowed under Bakke v California. There is nothing requiring any institution to give preference to minority. There was an order by Pres. Lyndon Johnson to award more contracts to minorities calling it “affirmative action”. It was never meant to be permanent or set a precedent.

Double standard. Racism- refusing to hire because of race. Reparation- hiring someone else considering the circumstances. Reparations doesn’t mean not hiring someone if they’re another color. it’s an affirmative act. The white person can work there when a job is available. If this isn’t clear say so and I’ll explain it again.

“If you don't feel that you fit in because of your ethnic decent then, honestly I think part of the problem lies with you. This is america, and we've forgotten that we're all here, as one. The beauty of our country is that we're based on a plethera of cultures and thus we are unique. As an ethnic minority, whatever minority it may be, you cannot come here and expect to change the cultural pattern that has been established.”

Wow a little presumptuous aren’t we? Did I say I didn’t feel like we fit in? My statement was referring to the hardships that we face compared to “whites”. You’re statement that I cannot come here and expect people to change their cultural pattern is right. I can expect them to respect mine. That is something many “whites” fail to do. Respect differences.

“You mean the american culture? You better be familiar with it if you're to make it your home. “

Didn’t you say earlier that, “that we're based on a plethera of cultures.” I’m American does that mean that your culture is the same as mine? Do you have any idea about my culture or me? Tell me honestly? No you don’t even know what I am or where I’m from. I bet I know that you don’t know anyone in your extended family except your 1st cousins. I bet you go out with friends and everyone pays for themselves (separate checks). I bet you that you probably don’t have relatives living with you that aren’t immediate family members.

“If I moved to south africa, I would be expected to adapt to their culture. How is it fair to expect america to change to the culture of thsoe who imigrate here?”

Are you native American? Do you practice native American culture? Should I have to learn native American culture?  Did your ancestors migrate here? Did they practice native American culture? If you don’t do it then don’t ask anyone else. European Americans came and became the dominant group here through treachery and imposed their culture upon all who came. That isn’t right. America was made for individual freedoms not majority has all the rights and minority has none. I have a right to practice my culture as long as it is lawful.

“The fact that you think we need more diversity shows how suseptible you've been to liberal horse shit, and how little you care about america. The strength of our country has always been competition. If you want to be recognized in america, it has always been achieved because you work harder than most of the people around you, and you seize opprotunity and WORK your way to the top. That's the real american way. Remember we're a capitalist society and our strength lies in our commitment to competition. If you can't compete you should work harder.”

Oh yeah I forgot its been our competition that made us great. I should tell the Native Americans, Native Hawaiians, and all the immigrant slaves (Chinese, Koreans, Japanese, Mexicans) that is how America got to be great. I forgot the Blacks working as share croppers, Hispanics in the fields, and Asians in the minds needed to work harder to compete right? Why didn’t those sharecroppers just work 24 hrs a day instead of 16. Native Americans just fight harder to keep their lands. Even if they’ve wiped out 95% of your people work harder. The greatness in our country has been our military might, individual freedoms, and our capitalistic economy. Capitalism does not mean trample on freedoms of the minorities as it has done in the past.

Do a little research into the history of the rail roads and how the irish and chinese were treated.

Here is my research: The Irish worked as under paid laborers for roughly 18 years. The Chinese built approximately 60% and the Irish maybe 20% and other groups did the rest. Chinese were sometimes slaves and sometimes paid but always very poorly. There were many laws and discriminatory practices during that time against Chinese.

The fact that you even try to compare the Irish suffering for a few years of being underpaid is very insulting. Irish suffered as many working class citizen in those days (remember the sweatshops and child labor). The Chinese were basically slaves and even subject to discrimination of Irish. Irish have discriminated all minorities throughout the history of this country. Irish have not been legally discriminated against 99% of the time in this country’s history.

“By your thoughts, the lack of resources my family has access too should determine how successful I can be in life.”

Now you’re telling me what I think? I didn’t know you could read my mind thanks for sharing. I never think that your circumstances determine your potential. I advocate evening the playing field. Your family doesn’t have to always be fighting racism, biases, and previous discrimination. Just because a minority can make it if they work twice as hard as their “white male” counterpart doesn’t mean that they should. If that is the case then you can say that we should keep affirmative consideration and “white males” should work harder. What’s the difference? Why should minorities continue to work harder for equality?

“  Standarized tests are written by the same people who standarized learning. If you learned what you were taught in school you'll do fine on the tests.”

Did you think of that all by yourself? Do you even know what you’re talking about? Standardized Testing (ACT/ SAT) isn’t suppose to be about recall but your aptitude. Unfortunately that is not the case. There are biases in the forms and material tested. Thousands of studies and experts agree. If you don’t believe me then research it in google, proquest, or any other research you want to do. There are literally thousands of studies that prove that they’re bias. Find a credible study that proves that they are not.

“Work harder like everyone else in america.”

Why don’t you work harder for once and quit telling us to catch up after years of discrimination and continued discrimination.

“What does cultural perspective have to do with math, biology, american history, literature and so forth? So because the majority of a class is white we should be able to relate to each other and give our perspectives because there's not enough diveristy?”

Are you really saying this? How does cultural perspective relate to American history, literature and so forth? Anyone that can’t understand what different perspectives does for education really needs to get out and see the world. Was Christopher Columbus an explorer or conqueror? Was it a battle or a massacre? Was Malcolm X a leader or racist? Was Rodney King guilty or innocent? Should we open up our borders? Should we have affirmative consideration? What does this poet mean? How does this situation relate to us? Should we enforce this policy? These are all different views depending on your experiences, such as class, race, geography, etc. The Association of University Presidents filed a brief on behalf of the University of Michigan’s lawsuit stating,” We go to college to see differences not similarities.”

“Here in america, you should also  have to accept OUR cultural views.”

Wait didn’t you already say, “The beauty of our country is that we're based on a plethera of cultures.” That to me seems to be contradictory. When you refer to “OUR cultural view” whose view is “OUR”? Don’t minorities cultural views mean anything? Do Irish or European Americans determine “OUR cultural view”?


“It's not about being qualified, it's about being most qualified. If I had a 4.0 GPA, with honors and graduated validictorian of my class, with a 3.8 GPA in a masters program, studying for my doctorate of english, with high comendations from most of my proffessors, I would be more qualified than a minority attending his first year of college coming out of highschool with a 3.6 GPA, but thanks to Affermative Action, if the college we're both applying to doesn't have enough of his ethnic minority then he gets in and I don't even though I'd bring the college more money, and my acheivements are more meritous.”

That is the biggest myth. The most qualified get in first. The ones not close get rejected and those borderline get wait listed. If you were valedictorian you would not get rejected for a first year minority collegiate. They would reject a person of way lesser qualifications. Get your facts straight. Here are some websites to help you see that it only affects so few like .1%-5% of applicants and 3%-8% of admittees, depending on your college respectively. Here are some websites:
http://www.umich.edu/~urel/admissions/statements/liu.html

http://www.godofthemachine.com/archives/000301.html

http://amptoons.com/blog/arc20030119.html#BlogID181

The rationale is minorities face the most challenges (in general) and others don’t face it as much adversity in general. So if you have all the opportunities for so long and you are still borderline then those who struggle in the face of adversity and fall a little short deserve it. The system is not perfect but better than the alternative. There should be a better system but until then we should keep affirmative action.
Life is not equitable and to expect to institutionalize something that is completely equitable is unreasonable. We need to look to see if what we’re doing is helping more than it’s hurting. Affirmative consideration helps more than it hurts. Until someone proposes something than can achieve what affirmative consideration does we need to keep it.

“Like wise I'm sure that alot of minorities don't NEED affermative action to get into college, I'm sure they busted their ass all through highschool and earned their way in”.

They shouldn’t have to work harder to achieve the same. We have been working harder all our lives.
“Aren't you discribing exactly what would be expected of a white person moving to any foreign country? Including another white country. “

Is this country a “white country”? I thought this was a melting pot and we all had the right to any culture. Do I have to give up my culture and embrace a very British/European culture? Why should one culture dominate over mine and prohibit me from living as I want to live?


“If I moved to London, I'd have to adapt to a whole new culture. You moved here, you should adapt to our culture. We shouldn't all have to adapt to yours.”

Again you contradict yourself. “The beauty of our country is that we're based on a plethera of cultures.” Did I move to your country? NO, we all moved to native Americans’ country and made it ours. There is a plethora of cultures yet we need to adapt to “our culture”. We shouldn’t all have to adapt to “mine”. Tell me what is your culture, my culture, and the plethora of cultures? I don’t expect for anyone to embrace my culture. I do expect people to respect it. My whole argument is there are many things we do because we have to when other people that are cultureless or don’t have a very strong culture don’t have to adjust as we do. College is hard enough life without culture differences that can be emotionally and physically a disadvantage. I’m saying this not because I expect people to allow minorities to do less but to acknowledge our challenges we face in general.

“Why don't we even out everyone else too....let's get a good religious diversity in some muslim countries, let's spread white people out in africa and asia as well. We wouldn't want anyone to miss out on our ethnic diversity. That would be terrible. How dare people ignore my culture and make me adapt to theirs! Do you see the idiocy in that?”

Do you see the idiocy of your statement? We choose religions but we cannot choose our race. Ethnicities are confined to an ethnic group. Religions are not confined to a certain group, it transcends race, space, class, and everything else. It would be good to spread out-group of different religions to help in understanding. The fact is that even same religions suffer differently depending on race (White and Black Christians in America). As the Supreme Court put it there is an essential need of “Critical Mass” in education. Critical mass is that a group is represented well enough you can come to know them in general instead of off a few representatives. No one should have to give or change their culture. Everyone should be aware, respect, and sensitive to other cultures. I feel minorities are more tolerant than “whites” with respect to cultural differences.

I appreciate you comments. I do understand that you feel that everything should be even if this world in not fair. Affirmative Consideration is a way of making life fairer. I feel that affirmative consideration isn’t perfect and that it’s a means to achieve an end. It doesn’t hurt non-minorities as much as many claim. The admission policy actually encourages people to do better. It doesn’t hurt everyone just the mediocre to poor performing students. Research your facts more carefully before speaking because people shouldn’t advocate something they know nothing about.


 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 06:37 AM on May 23, 2003 | IP
Mom1234

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Affirmative action does not only reverse discrimitation towards whites it actually is more demeaning to minority groups and women to aid them in such a way.

Are you telling them that they are not capable? Are you telling them that because they are a minority they are inherently flawed and so deserve favoritism?

I see all racial and gender groups as equal and so promote the greatest good by opposing affirmative action.
 


Posts: 1 | Posted: 1:41 PM on February 15, 2007 | IP
AmericanVetforUS

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50 years ago, it was hard for some minorities to get the same education as some to get those jobs ect..Today that is not the case. Minorities, espicially african americans, have same and even more educational oppurnities as others. As a middle class white male, educational scholorships and grants were half of that of a african american. Although many of these laws were good for their day, they are now causing more harm than good. Today is not like the 70's so stop trying to bring things up from there. There is a new generation coming into form. It will either form and be one, or start a whole reverse process due to over excess from the 70's and 80's.


-------
Dont let the history destroy the future.
 


Posts: 6 | Posted: 8:58 PM on September 27, 2007 | IP
bobby4

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i'm all for weak AA which basically says equal opportunity and treatment.
on the other hand i don't agree with strong AA because it's basically reverse discrimination. the reason this type of affirmative action is supported is because it's easy.
it's much harder for the "policymakers" to ensure that everyone has equal opportunity (comparable education for all, i'm sure you've heard of the "bad" neighborhoods where the education system is messed up) now, without that foundation the students will be destoned for failure. both in continuing education and ultimately in their career.

i think the education system needs some major adjustments. both in the fact that we don't all get equal education (i'm talking about elementary school on) and the fact that the people who ultimately decide what we learn are gearing us to be biological robots. the people in power use the education system not hoping to produce entrepreneurs but to produce blue and white collar workers. we're taught what to think and not how to think. if you think about it it's surprising that people don't have to take a logic and critical thinking class and when they turn 18 they can go out and vote. sorry i'm ranting here

bottomline with AA. it doesnt work. it's simply the easy way out and there are much better alternatives. but becuase AA is there the people don't strive for a system that is actually effective.
 


Posts: 11 | Posted: 5:45 PM on May 16, 2009 | IP
    
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