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Poll Question: Afirmative Action: Is It Right or Wrong?   (29 votes)
  I am White - It is RIGHT! n/a
  I am White - It is WRONG! n/a
  I am Black - It is RIGHT! n/a
  I am Black - It is WRONG! n/a
  I am Another race - It is RIGHT! n/a
  I am Another race - It is WRONG! n/a
Guests Cannot Vote


    
Day_Am_STR8

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How does your opinion stack up with everyone else?

Let us REALLY see if everyone thinks it is working or not and why they do maintain their opinion about it.
 


Posts: 20 | Posted: 6:55 PM on August 18, 2002 | IP
Exxoss

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Its stoopid, it is saying 'since you are whit, your black friend gets a job'  wrong.  Everyone should be equal, so screw afirmative action


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I am Exxoss, come to save you all from your impending doom!!!!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

-Exxoss
 


Posts: 438 | Posted: 10:40 AM on September 25, 2002 | IP
IrritatedPolitic

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Okay, Affirmative Action is wrong because it creates a discriminatory quota against aptly qualified persons applying, no matter what their race, gender, ethnicity, or creed.  It inadvertently sets up Reverse Discrimination.  Bottom line--If a person is the most qualified for the job it should be theirs.  If it be a Black person, yay, if it be a white person, yay, if it be an Indian, yay, If it be a Pakistani, yay, If it be a gay, yay, If it be a Disabled person, yay, and if it be a Veteran, yay.  When everyone begins to recognize that people are people no matter what their physical appearance, gender, or age that's when things will start to change for the better, but not until then.


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Problems will continue to exist until this country focuses on the major issues and what needs to be said and taken care of, as opposed to what will get them re-elected or what the people WANT to hear.

---IrritatedPolitic
 


Posts: 1 | Posted: 4:33 PM on November 7, 2002 | IP
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anyone who does not support affirmative action is a retard.  it provides opportunities for minorities and women.  we would of not have job discrimination if employees would hire minorities..so if you want to eliminate affirmative action..hire more minorities and women.
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 2:27 PM on January 10, 2003 | IP
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Two people are qualified for a job. The white guy is more qualified. The black guy gets the job because he is black and they white guy is white. Not fair.


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Don't tell me I'm conservative...I know that!
 


Posts: 351 | Posted: 1:42 PM on January 11, 2003 | IP
tsmith2771

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Quote from Guest at 2:27 PM on January 10, 2003 :
anyone who does not support affirmative action is a retard.  it provides opportunities for minorities and women.  we would of not have job discrimination if employees would hire minorities..so if you want to eliminate affirmative action..hire more minorities and women.


I will hire who I think is best for the job, wether they be black, white or from mars, and everyone else can go to hell if the don't like it.





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"I have no interest in making blacks equal to whites, they are of a lesser quality and this I am sure of." -Abraham Lincoln
"You don't win a war by dying for your country, you win a war by making the other person die for theirs." -General George Patton
 


Posts: 372 | Posted: 07:02 AM on January 12, 2003 | IP
fallingupwards84

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how will our country ever get to the point where we can look beyond race, when our government is telling us to discriminate based on race? the same people who tell us to be "color-blind" are also telling us that race should matter in the work or school place.


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 07:57 AM on January 16, 2003 | IP
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It's funny that most whites believe that they are more qualified for jobs than blacks... That is your natural assumption...  And by that assumption Afirmative Action is needed to even out the playing field....

Your basic assumptions are that we are innately inferior ... we have to prove that we deserve to be seen as equal in many cases...
Colon Powel is 1000% more qualified that Bush who is by all standards.... illiterate...
And we all know this but yet he will never be President.


So lets not talk about what is fair...
When Black Public Schools measure up to white schools   then we can do away with Affirmative action... completely...  So instead of Bush focusing on getting rid of Affirmative Action why doesn't he focus on improving Public education for "innercity schools"  and then do away with Affirmation Action...

I never knew that white people in this country were so concerned with fairness..  Especially not about issues of race...
Blacks are not taking anything from you ... You don't lose because a few blacks get to attend Ivy league schools... What are you affraid of .... Unlike you blacks don't have Emperialistic aims...We are neither interested in taking over nor are we interested.... in conquering YOU...
We would simply like to get to a point in history where many of your laws and discussions are not centered around the problem of "What to do with the black race"
Crime Legislation
Welfare Reform
Affirmative action...
Are all issues which are code for ... "ways that we will deal with the black race"

And other than war.... These seem to be the most pressing issues on the minds of most Republican, "upper-class white", people in this country...

This is the way they divide us.... all of us  middle-class whites and blacks...
There is a problem of class warfare in this country than far exceede any problem with race...
It's it funny that as soon as the economy takes a down turn... Race starts to become a "problem" again... Affirmative action becaomes a "problem" again...
No one was worried about Affirmative Action when the economy was good....
So what is this really about?
Why don't people ask those questions..
Instead of trying to get rid of Affirmative Action why isn't Bush telling us where Osama Bin Laden is...
I think that's a more pressing issue... Don't you...
Blacks aren't a treat to you but there are some terrorist who can't wait to kill as many of you as they can...
Why isn't Bush explaining to us where he is in the war on Terrorist....








 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 10:30 AM on January 16, 2003 | IP
purrkitty119

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All men are created equal!!   Thats what i've heard all my life, right?

Well, if we are all created equal, should we give blacks and the other minorities a point boost?  
 
NO

If you are educated enough to pass a test, why would you need points to start yourself ahead of whites?  I say give the best man the education and job!!!

The NAACP is nothing more mere than a group who supports in keeping the blacks up in arms. Adding fuel to the fire!!  It is not the whites problem to give another hand out. What happened in the past many many moons ago is ancient!!! Old news!!!
Prove to the nation that you do have the ability to excel without added points.
Just do it!!  Quit whinning!!
 

 


Posts: 2 | Posted: 11:30 AM on January 16, 2003 | IP
fallingupwards84

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guest, i believe that if racism is to ever be eliminated then we must not let race be a determining factor in everything we do. affirmative action is racist. the definition of racism is to judge someone by their race and not who they really are inside. If you want to be racist, thats fine. as for me, i believe everyone is equal.


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 3:51 PM on January 16, 2003 | IP
dsadevil

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Amazingly, guest makes a angry statement against white stereotyping of blacks by...stereotyping whites. smooth. And from someone who SUPPORTS inner-city school refore, SUPPORTS a different type of welfare reform that encourages job growth rather than throughs people on the street, SUPPORTS putting more officers on the street so that crime goes down and making them accountable when they abuse the public trust and OPPOSES aff action, allow me to state that I am personally offended by your ridiculously stereotyping. I have not, in any manner done the same to you, but it is telling that you automatically equate an opposition to aff action with an opposition to racial equality.


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 4:55 PM on January 16, 2003 | IP
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Quote from purrkitty119 at 11:30 AM on January 16, 2003 :
All men are created equal!!  Thats what i've heard all my life, right?

Well, if we are all created equal, should we give blacks and the other minorities a point boost?  

Yes, We were created equal by god but until about 30 years ago were not seen as equals by the laws of this Nation...
You can not have 300 years of slavery.... then another 100 years of oppression and then call it a equal playing field.... because it's not... you benefit in this society by the fact that you were born white.. in America... admit it... and stop pretending that you don't undrstand why blacks have a 'problem" in America.

If you are educated enough to pass a test, why would you need points to start yourself ahead of whites?  I say give the best man the education and job!!!

Spend some time in an inner city school or neighborhood... and then come back and ask that question again...



The NAACP is nothing more mere than a group who supports in keeping the blacks up in arms.


interesting veiw on the NAACP... Please explain this ... Why do you even care....

 
It is not the whites problem to give another hand out.

Hand out... Slavery was a 300 year handout taken by whites in the country... ... You guys should recognize a hand out when you see one... You should at least share some of the wealth you ancestors stole...


What happened in the past many many moons ago is ancient!!! Old news!!!

My mother grew up in times when we couldn't use the same bath rooms as whites or even ride in the front of the bus, we didn't even have the right to vote... I would not call that ancient history...


Prove to the nation that you do have the ability to excel without added points.
Just do it!!  Quit whinning!!



You are the whinner... We have nothing to prove.  America is the great nation that it is because we unlike the other great nations of this world had 300 years of free labor...
Blacks have proven all that we need to prove ... We have paid our dues...
Not only did black Americans build the great halls of freedom....the White House the Capitol... But throughout the history of this country we have helped America... no we have ...forced America to live us to it's creed...
That all men are created equal...
I call that a great legacy...

So you stop whinning and prove to me that you deserve the privilages that you enjoy by the fact that you were born white in America....
 




[b]
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 4:57 PM on January 16, 2003 | IP
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It has been very interesting learning that the minorities of the country complain and point fingers on issues that happen geneartions ago.  The black population is always squeaking the loudest.  Hense, the squeaky wheel get the grease.

I am a 4th generation white.  Let me see.  If I count the years that would make my family exempt from the black man's complaint.  Therefore the War between the States was fought 40 years before my family saw Ellis Island.  In that being said, why should we as a nation have to take on slavery as an issue in 2003.  

From what I see in the issue of affirmative action it is all one sided.  My family came to this country poor and had to work hard in making it in the Good Ol' USA.  I have no record in family documents that show they were given preferential treat because they were white.  As a matter of fact, they were looked down upon during the 19-teens because they were German.  I would call that a form of discrimination.  The business my great-grandfather started in 1908 was burnt to the ground in 1917 because he was German decent living in America.

I have seen on television here of late.  A black councilman from New York City making statements that the US govt should refirmate the black race for being put into slavery so many years ago.  He stated that he would take it in money or free medical insurance or housing.  How does this make up for an issue that was settled in 1865?

I don't believe there is anyone alive from that time that needs to be refirmated one red penny or free handout.  

I see Asian and Mexican businesses thriving.  Would this be because they are willing to work hard for what they want in life?  Hard working people will always be further ahead than people willing to set on their hands, no matter what color.

So, in finishing.  Get off you dead squeaky a@@ and get busy and educate yourself and land a good job no matter what your color is.  This country does not need to help people who are not willing to help themselves.

The NAACP needs to be considered as a reverse discrimination group the same as any other radical group in this country.


 


Posts: 2 | Posted: 7:10 PM on January 16, 2003 | IP
fallingupwards84

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why is it ok for blacks to be racist against whites? why is it not a big deal when people make fun of and stereotype whites? guest, you have a lot of hatred toward whites. so that means you are a racist. the definition of racisim is not "hatred of blacks". it is the hatred of a racial group. whites are a racial group.

there was a black woman who posted in this debate forum earlier who was against affirmative action. why? because she did not want to be judged by the color of her skin. she wanted to be judged by her job skills. i respect her for saying that.

i am anything but a racist. i hate racism with a passion. that is why i am not in favor of affirmative action.

i also support welfare and inner-city school reform. so, like dsa, i do not appreciate your judgemental stereotyping either.

RACISM SUCKS!!!


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 8:09 PM on January 16, 2003 | IP
dsadevil

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i find it notable (for once I am not using the phrase "interestingly enough" )that guest only responded to purrkitty, who seems rather extreme and who I disagree with. Myself and falling were rendered unscathed.

I disagree with purrkitty alot actually. The idea that racism is gone from America is ludicrious, as is the idea that anyone can do anything in America if they work hard (an idea that is virtually impossible under capitalism). My personal opinion is this: racism is like a cancer, it will never be gone, but it can be forced into pretty serious remission, which is what has happened today. The problem is is that the aftereffects of racism, IE that it made generations of people poor, can't be fixed that easy. discriminated against minorities will never rise to their full potential as equal citizens and producers IF we don't give them the means to do so. Such means aren't "bonus points," they are fixing the lingering after effects of racism: poor, unequally funded schools, high crime rates, economic stagnation. The problem isn't race anymore, its class, but the past racist policies forced the vast majority of its targets into an inescapable circle of poverty, and it is that circle that needs to be addressed. No one can seriously argue that Robert Johnson's (CEO of BET) son or daughter deserves bonus points over a white child who grew up in Cabrini-Green. Actions to lift a group up need to be targeted at those who most desperately need the help: the poor, regardless of their race.


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"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 9:36 PM on January 16, 2003 | IP
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First, you've got to figure out why we admit people to public universities. It's not as a reward for making good grades in high school. It's so that we can improve our society -- spending public resources to expand the minds of a lucky relatively-few, so that they will go on to do things that will make the world better. Admission is not an entitlement that arises from being smart. It is a matter of being chosen to be the subject of a public investment. Second, we have decided that we ought to invest in just about as many minority kids, proportionately, as white kids. Why? Because it seems pretty obvious to us that this is the way to improve the world -- not by reserving this public good mostly for white folks, but by spreading it around. The world will be better more quickly, we think, if there are black lawyers as well as white lawyers, Hispanic engineers as well as Anglo engineers, etc. And it also appears to us that any fairly-designed system of assessing "merit" just would result in approximately proportionate representation among races and ethnicities -- that is definitional, we think, as to the words "fairly-designed" and "merit". Third, if we went solely on SATs, LSATs, and grades, we wouldn't achieve this goal -- so we make adjustments. It's not a perfect system, but no one has ever yet designed a perfect system for measuring or even defining human merit in any sphere.


 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 12:01 AM on January 17, 2003 | IP
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Universities give preferences for lots of things: athletic prowess, legacy admissions, musical talent, etc. All of these admissions prevent a more academically qualified person from being admitted, but all of them also serve the purpose of making the university a better place that serves a greater variety of people. Why is it that race is the only factor that people object to considering?


 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 12:12 AM on January 17, 2003 | IP
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Affirmative action just another form of political incorrectness. It isn't fair to discriminate against minorities, so it isn't fair to discriminate against non-minorities either.
Affirmative action is racism! And racism of any knid is immoral!
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 10:02 AM on January 17, 2003 | IP
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Quote from dsadevil at 4:55 PM on January 16, 2003 :
Amazingly, guest makes a angry statement against white stereotyping of blacks by...stereotyping whites. smooth. And from someone who SUPPORTS inner-city school refore, SUPPORTS a different type of welfare reform that encourages job growth rather than throughs people on the street, SUPPORTS putting more officers on the street so that crime goes down and making them accountable when they abuse the public trust and OPPOSES aff action, allow me to state that I am personally offended by your ridiculously stereotyping. I have not, in any manner done the same to you, but it is telling that you automatically equate an opposition to aff action with an opposition to racial equality.

I am not stereotyping you .. I don't believe you are racist at all maybe just a little misguided... Let's take a look at welfare reform can we...
"Spending for corporate welfare programs outweighs spending for low-income programs by more than three to one: $167 billion to $51.7 billion."

Total federal spending on a safety net for the poor costs the average taxpayer about $400 a year, while spending on corporate welfare programs costs the same taxpayer about $1400 a year. (source: Congressional Budget Office figures)

When the republican decide to reduce government, " spending for the needy absorbed the majority of spending cuts, while corporate welfare spending was barely touched. Over 90% of the budget cuts passed by the last Congress cut spending for the poor  programs that ensure food for the needy, housing for the homeless, job training for the unemployed, community health care for the sick."

Does that make since....

Mean while when you think of welfare reform you forget that the majority of people on welfare are white...  you think of it as a black issue...
You shouldn't be complaining about welfare you should be more concerned with corporate welfare... But I don't see the Republican's cutting that out of the budget...

I made the comments I made earlier simply to get you to understand that these issues are deeper than race... These are class issues....  

dsadevil
I'm glad you got that point... no offense intended....

How do we correct them....

Affirmative Action would not be necessary if the school systems were adequate...
I attended public school in Washington DC and private school.... in high school... I was exposed to things in private school... that I would never have been exposed to had I stayed in Public School....  That is a very sad reality...
The standards are very low in Black Public Schools and as a student I felt like what I was learning was not preparing me for life and I wasn't meeting my full potential... In Public School...
We never read Homer... We never read Aristotle....Plato...  We didn't discuss The impact of the French Revolution on the American Revolution or the Enlightenment and Romanticism... Black Public Schools don't teach kids to think.... We took tests at the end of each year ... and the curriculum was designed to help us pass the test....We would spend the year studying the test.... basically ...   But these tests didn't cover The Canon  or Algebra and Trig....  

Unlike a lot of other students... my parents were able to afford to put me in private school....

That is an unfortunate reality that.... Affirmative Action and adding an extra 50 points to a person's admissions score will not correct....

So why don't we have real solutions for these problems... Affirmative Action is not a real solution.... It’s an easy way to patch a systemic  problem without addressing the underlying issues...

Do you write-off a generation of Black Students because they are a product of very poor school systems... I don't think so.... So what do you do with the black students who are graduating from Poor public schools today.... ?
And like I said before this is not a race issue this a class issue... there are many white students who face these same issues because of class...

Take G. Bush for example... He is functionally illiterate.... He can't string a sentence together by himself that makes any sense... But he is president... Why? Because his daddy was president and they have plenty of money....

That shows you that class has become a determining factor in politics today....
And that's because politics is corrupted by money... and special interest but at any rate this is not a race issue.... but many blacks are affected because they are poor or apart of the under-class...

Don't  we have a right to the pursuit of the American dream.... even though we may be poor and/or  black...  Education is the key to achieving that dream...

Give a man a fish and he can eat for a day.... teach a man to fish and he can eat for life...





















 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 10:57 AM on January 17, 2003 | IP
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Quote from purrkitty119 at 7:10 PM on January 16, 2003 :
It has been very interesting learning that the minorities of the country complain and point fingers on issues that happen geneartions ago.  


ok...


From what I see in the issue of affirmative action it is all one sided.  My family came to this country poor and had to work hard in making it in the Good Ol' USA.  I have no record in family documents that show they were given preferential treat because they were white.  As a matter of fact, they were looked down upon during the 19-teens because they were German.  I would call that a form of discrimination.  The business my great-grandfather started in 1908 was burnt to the ground in 1917 because he was German decent living in America.

Your family came here by choice  to seek a better life. They weren't brought on a slave ship. Also, when they got here they were able to integrate  into society...
I have no doubt in my mind that they were discriminated against... because that is the American way.... lol...
And it's funny that as a decent of an immagrants who faced discrimmination... you seem to be so opinated about about the plight and struggles of African Americans ...
Your great-grandfather's business was burned which is really f'd up .... I agree with you there... But
The kkk wasn't hanging  Germans who tried to vote.... your family  wasn't terrorized by cross burnings on there lawn because they were german... Did German's have to sit at the back of the bus... Did German's have to use the German only restrooms or eat at the German only resturants.... or Come in the German only entrance.... or go to the German only Schools...
Also, I find it very interesting that you can trace your family lineage back to the ship they came from and the country they came from.... Don't you realize that there are probably a handful of African American's that can do that.... Slave masters didn't keep records of there slave's family lineage ... I can trace my family back to my grandmother's father's father... but he didn't know his mother or his father because he had been separtated from them during slavery.... So I don't know anything about my family before 1860  and there aren't any official records that could help me trace it....





(Edited by admin 1/26/2004 at 12:06 PM).
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 11:31 AM on January 17, 2003 | IP
fallingupwards84

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you dont need to convince us about welfare...me and dsa are both socialists.

i agree that the school systems are unfair. in POOR neighborhoods, the schools are crappier than in rich neighborhoods. the key word is poor. believe it or not, there are poor white people. i know that is probably hard for you to accept, but i am white and i lived in a poor neighborhood for my entire early childhood. i went to a poor elementary school. then almost immediatly, we moved (my dad got laid off, but then his new job paid more than his previous one) and all of a sudden i was on a middle-class side of town. the schools were different. i admit. but it was not "black versus white", it was "poor versus rich". there were white people at my poor school and their were black people at the wealthier one.

can all of these guests PLEASE register? i beg you. because i dont know who is for affirmative action and who is not.




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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 11:31 AM on January 17, 2003 | IP
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Quote from fallingupwards84 at 8:09 PM on January 16, 2003 :
why is it ok for blacks to be racist against whites? why is it not a big deal when people make fun of and stereotype whites? guest, you have a lot of hatred toward whites. so that means you are a racist. the definition of racisim is not "hatred of blacks". it is the hatred of a racial group. whites are a racial group.
RACISM SUCKS!!!


It's so funny that you would call me a racist...
Let's take a look at that please...
Racism isn't about hatred... alone... racism is about power...  I don't care if you hate me as long as you are not in a position to cause me harm because you hate me.... understand the difference?

The kkk is just another group of idiots as far as I am concerned... I could careless about them.... But there was a time when they could hang blacks and terrorize blacks and the courts and the laws did not protect us...

There was a time when it was legal to deny us human and legal rights... That's what racism is...in America...
Just like rape isn't about sex it's about power... Imagine if rape was legal in this country for 100 or so years... women would have absolutely zero power in America...

I don't think that racism is about hatred... the purpose of racism in this country ... is to create a lower-class of people whose class status is determined not by economics but by race...
That was what slavery was all about...
Power comes in controlling or using a group of people as a resource like a horse or a mule.... In effect blacks were a class of people who were used for the purpose of creating wealth for whites....
Racism was purely about economics and capitalism...

Now, after the "mules" of our society were freed, we still constituted the lower class.... in effect.... so whites in the south couldn't intermingle with the lower class.... sub-human... class of people.... effectively our lower class status ... allowed us to be left out of the idea that we were entitled to the rights that other Americans posses...

So these laws have been changed for about 30 years...
And I am very happy that……… I can grow up in a time where legally my rights as a human being and as an American are recognized.... I have no complaint there...
But there is still systematic and endemic racism... We will overcome that also….. I have no doubt in my mind....
So we may not ever completely like each other... but so what... The point is the legally everyone should have the right exist and thrive... equally... One group of people should never again be able to oppress another group of people....  Whether we call it racism, sexism or  whatever...
I think it's possible because we have managed to get past the religious wars.... in this nation.... Over many centuries in England there were terrible religious wars... And some religious groups oppressed others.... But legally that is not permitted in America... So therefore if it I hate.... Catholics... which I don't... I can't get a group of people together and oppress them or terrorize them... without facing some legal consequence....

So I hope I have explained to you what racism is truly all about...  Not hatred... Sweetheart... but ... POWER...  

 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 12:13 PM on January 17, 2003 | IP
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Quote from fallingupwards84 at 11:31 AM on January 17, 2003 :

i agree that the school systems are unfair. in POOR neighborhoods, the schools are crappier than in rich neighborhoods. the key word is poor. believe it or not, there are poor white people.



you didn't read what I wrote ...
Do you write-off a generation of Black Students because they are a product of very poor school systems... I don't think so.... So what do you do with the black students who are graduating from Poor public schools today.... ?
And like I said before this is not a race issue this a class issue... there are many white students who face these same issues because of class...

Take G. Bush for example... He is functionally illiterate.... He can't string a sentence together by himself that makes any sense... But he is president... Why? Because his daddy was president and they have plenty of money....




 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 12:16 PM on January 17, 2003 | IP
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Too many guests, too hard to organize them.
To the guest who posted 1/17 at 1 AM
That's an interesting point. But I must disagree, b/c there is no warrent to suggest that, in of itself, having more lawyers/doctors etc. of a specific group is beneficial to society. What's beneficial to society is having the best and brightest people people get the best jobs, and by extension, making sure we give everyone a fair chance to prove themselves a member of the best and brightest. That is what is needed, a equal oppurtunity to succeed, not a guarentee of equal success.
To guest 1/17 at 1:12 AM
The equation of musical or atheletic talent to race is fallacious (i agree with u in opposing legacy). I work hard at getting good at the Sax, thats a result of my actions. Same with hockey. I don't work hard at being white. It doesn't take effort on my part. So while I can influence my musical talent and athelticism, i cant do the same to my race, which is the key difference.
To the guest who talked about corperate welfare (1/17 11:57 AM): Me and Falling are in complete agreement. The US policies concerning welfare for the rich and poor are absymal and shameful. We need to fix it. I agree. And that is why I am a democrat. Also, as a resident of montgomory county maryland I am well aware of the public school situation in DC that needs to be addressed. And I agree with you that any preferences need to be class based not race based. So we agree on virtually everything.
And finally guest 1/17 1:13 PM makes a point that doesn't prove anything about aff action, but rather that blacks have endured the brunt of discrimination in america. I agree with that too, but that in itself isnt a point for aff action.


-------
"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 1:37 PM on January 17, 2003 | IP
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Quote from dsadevil at 1:37 PM on January 17, 2003 :To the guest who talked about corperate welfare (1/17 11:57 AM): Me and Falling are in complete agreement. The US policies concerning welfare for the rich and poor are absymal and shameful. We need to fix it. I agree. And that is why I am a democrat. Also, as a resident of montgomory county maryland I am well aware of the public school situation in DC that needs to be addressed. And I agree with you that any preferences need to be class based not race based. So we agree on virtually everything.
And finally guest 1/17 1:13 PM makes a point that doesn't prove anything about aff action, but rather that blacks have endured the brunt of discrimination in america. I agree with that too, but that in itself isnt a point for aff action.

Ok I registered.... And I authored both of these points.... Now
I need to clarify something...
Yes I made the point this is a class issue not a race issue and I wrote the second post to explain two points....
first, being black in America means the you belong to a class that was created during slavery...
that is why I made this point:

the purpose of racism in this country ... is to create a lower-class of people whose class status is determined not by economics but by race...
That was what slavery was all about...
Power is acheived by controlling or using a group of people as a resource like a horse or a mule.... In effect blacks were a class of people who were used for the purpose of creating wealth for whites....
Racism was purely about economics and capitalism...
Now, after the "mules" of our society were freed, we still constituted the lower class.... in effect.... so whites in the south couldn't intermingle with the lower class.... sub-human... class of people.... effectively our lower class status ... allowed us to be left out of the idea that we were entitled to the rights that other Americans posses...


As an African American, my race is intimately tied to the class to which I belong...  even if I am rich... I am still African American... understand...
That is the point that I was trying to make...
So when you say that this is a class issue...
Yes it is...
But you need to dig deeper into understanding the class structure in American society... Minorities constitute a separate class in American politics...
We don't define ourselves that way but.... We are always separated in the language...

Upper-class... lower-class .. middle-class and the minorities...
Anecdotally .. I didn't realize that I was a "minority" until I was about 12 years old.... I had no idea who they were taking about when they kept referring to minorities on tv....
I was devastated to know that i was apart of the group that was being talked about so poorly...






(Edited by aasha_ 1/17/2003 at 2:56 PM).
 


Posts: 29 | Posted: 2:52 PM on January 17, 2003 | IP
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I think the lingering after effects of slavery is not that it makes blacks themselves a secondary class, but rather that even after the racial problem was solved, it made blacks members of the lower class and thus impossible to survive in a capitalist society. So while the problem can be traced back to race for many people, the solution today is not race based but rather economic class based. Helping all poor people move up in society.


-------
"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 3:15 PM on January 17, 2003 | IP
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Affirmative Action is an attempt to make up for  social inequities.... which  have historical origins....

It is the cheapest, quickest quick fix that they could come up with..

I would definately prefer a real fix...

Greatly improve funding for public education...
Safer neighborhoods...
and so forth...
Get kids out of the criminal justice system and into good schools...
I wish a Republican would fight for these aims...  
and at the same time.... get rid of Affirmative action... wouldn't that be wonderful....  
 


Posts: 29 | Posted: 3:48 PM on January 17, 2003 | IP
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Quote from dsadevil at 3:15 PM on January 17, 2003 :
I think the lingering after effects of slavery is not that it makes blacks themselves a secondary class, but rather that even after the racial problem was solved, it made blacks members of the lower class and thus impossible to survive in a capitalist society. So while the problem can be traced back to race for many people, the solution today is not race based but rather economic class based. Helping all poor people move up in society.

I agree with you to a certain extent .... but I'd like to discuss this a bit... I'm just curious about everyone's thoughts on this subject....

Why is it that when we talk politics:
We have the upper-class
the middle-class
the lower-class
and then minorities....

When we think of minorities we think of poor or middle-class people of color  who identify with some ideal about civil rights in this country...

Do you think of cuban americans as minorities....No because they came from Cuba from the wealthy class ... and they identify with Republicans...

Do we think of Jews as a minority....?
no ( I understand the  it's a religious distinction not a racial distinction... but now the Jeruselum is a state... Jews from Jeruselum are a nationality... and just like Hatians or other immagrants they could belong to the minority.... but they don't) Why not?
Does minority mean groups of people who are fewer in number or does it mean... persons of color or significant ethnic distinction....


Well, I believe that minorities constitute a separate class in the US

Again we have the upper class middle-class and minorities... listen to you evening news and see if a distinction is made....  

 


Posts: 29 | Posted: 4:02 PM on January 17, 2003 | IP
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i dont think of terms of minorities. i think of terms of upper class, middle class, and poor. period. thats it. many blacks belong to the upper class (look at Robert Johnson or Michael Jordan for example). there are minorities in all three classes.

i dont like to think of minorities of a single class, because they individually belong to different classes. whites can be in the lower class, cant they? not all whites are rich, my friend.

i understand that you are angry about racism and our country's history towards blacks. i totally understand. i get very upset about it too, so i can imagine that you would as well. but why should innocent whites get punished for our ancestors past? i have NEVER done anything wrong to blacks in my whole life. i am not racist. i have black friends. i dont think in terms of race. yet, when i applied for scholarships last year in my senior year of high school, I GOT REJECTED BECAUSE I WAS WHITE. this is not fair. i made a 3.5 GPA in high school. i NEEDED the money because i cannot afford college. my parents are not paying for my education. i have to pay for all of it. therefore i am in NEED of money to pay for my college expenses. but i got REJECTED because of the color of my skin. THAT IS RACISM


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 4:15 PM on January 17, 2003 | IP
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Fallingupwards and dsadevil aren't racist.. they have color TV's
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 4:24 PM on January 17, 2003 | IP
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???


-------
"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 11:38 PM on January 17, 2003 | IP
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Afirmative action is crap.  Just because someone is black dosent mean that they should get a job ahead of someone more qualified.  
Some one earlier, think it was a guest, said that afirmative action would help minorities and women get better jobs.  I dont remember what exactly was said, but it sounded stupid like that.  
I think that minorities have excess opportunity to get jobs.  Take what fallingupwards said earlier; he got rejected to a school because he was white.  If he were black, he would have been accepted.  I know several people who are minorities that have been accepted to school because of their race.  If a white person applied with the same credentials, they would be sure to be denied.  
A few examples
A girl I went to high school with got a full ride to Dartmoth because she was 1/16 indian; her grades were below average.
I have heard of several white people get rejected from UNC with near perfect GPA, yet I have a black friend with an average GPA get into UNC.
Have you heard of the lawsuit with The University of Michigan?.  I think its Michigan.  But rejectees are suing because the admissions officers use race as a huge factor in admission.  It was estimated that minorities were given a 90-100% chance to be accepted, and whites were given a 1-2% chance.

They do say that racial balance does enhance learing environment.  And there are so many more whites than blacks applying to schools.  Thus, admissions officers need to accept a greater percentage of minorities.  Im not being racist, but everyone knows that white ppl do better in school(high school) than minorities.  
So I think it is unfair that minorities have the chances that they do.  Their performance is inferior, yet they have much better chances to be accepted to major universities.  So guest, I do not understand how they have unfair chances.


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Posts: 48 | Posted: 1:54 PM on January 18, 2003 | IP
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I don't think that african americans are the only ones being discriminated so have all the other races, like hispanics, asians, and even white people in some cases. what do you think would happen if instead of BET(Black Entertainment Television) it was WET(White Entertainment Television)?? Hell would brake loose. So the heck with this afirmative action and let the best man/women get the benefit wether if he or she is black white, hispanic, etc..


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Pepe L.
 


Posts: 2 | Posted: 2:53 PM on January 18, 2003 | IP
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I agree teddy.  Its funny to me that black people can discriminate all they want towards white people, but if a white person says anything negative about a black person it is considered offensive.
And how come there is no white history month.  There are a million times as many important white people in history to admire than black people.  
Whoopde do Rosa Parks wouldnt sit in the back of the bus.  Are black people proud to be black because of people like her?




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Dave C
 


Posts: 48 | Posted: 3:51 PM on January 18, 2003 | IP
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DO you guys rememeber junior marshalls in high school?  It's the top 20 people in the class.  One of my friends said that at his high school, they HAD to fill a quota of at least 2 minorities for the 20 marshalls.  They didn't have any minorities in the top 20, so they BUMPED the 19th and 20th ranked person in their class, and replaced them with the top two minorities.... both around 70 or 80.  Why should number 19 and 20 work their ass off for three years, just to have it taken away because they were white?


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Fourth Floor, ASU

fourthfloor
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Posts: 27 | Posted: 9:18 PM on January 18, 2003 | IP
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whoa...applichean state must have a kick ass debate squad. speaking of which, to any of y'all know a Christina Tadlock? I believe she is a freshman this year at ASU.

Btw, be careful when saying ASU...my first thought on ASU is Arizona State (GO SUN DEVILS!)


-------
"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 12:44 AM on January 19, 2003 | IP
fallingupwards84

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the funny thing is that all of the ASU debaters on this site are on the SAME floor. 4th floor in Eggers Hall


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i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 12:59 AM on January 19, 2003 | IP
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I believe that while race-neutral means are preferable, it is appropriate to use race as one factor among others in achieving a diverse student body.

This, of course, is exactly what the University of Michigan does: it considers race as one factor out of many. Here's the whole dreary list:


80 points — GPA

12 points — SAT scores

10 points — Academic strength of high school

8 points — Strength of high school curriculum

10 points — Michigan resident

6 points — Underrepresented Michigan county

2 points — Underrepresented state

4 points — Legacy admission

3 points — Essay

5 points — Personal achievement

5 points — Leadership and service

20 points — Socio-economic disadvantage

20 points — Underrepresented racial-ethnic minority

5 points — Men in nursing

20 points — Scholarship athlete

20 points — Provost's discretion


As the University of Michigan puts it:

While students with very low grades and test scores typically are denied admission, and students with very high grades and test scores typically are admitted, most applicants do not fall into either of these categories. For that large pool of qualified applicants in the middle range, many other factors -- including, but not limited to, race and ethnicity -- can make a difference in admissions decisions.

So: it's not a quota. It doesn't allow unqualified kids to enter. And race is not a "deciding factor" — at least no more so than  other factors on the list.
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 08:30 AM on January 19, 2003 | IP
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making race equally as important as test scores and strength of curriculum combined seems abit extreme.


-------
"If stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" -Will Rodgers<br><br><br>"Neither man nor nation can prosper unless in looking at the present, thought is steadily taken for the future." -T. Roosevelt<br><br>"Might I remind you that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice, is no virtue." -Barry Goldwater<br><br>

Respect through Excellence only
 


Posts: 789 | Posted: 11:31 AM on January 19, 2003 | IP
fallingupwards84

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i was born white. i cannot control that. i cannot change that. sometimes i wish i was black because then i could get all these scholarships and stuff.

on the other hand, i can control my tests scores. i can study harder to bring my scores up. race is not something i can control.


-------
i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 2:34 PM on January 19, 2003 | IP
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guest, we are thinking of 2 different schools here

on 20/20 they were talking about a school, i thought it was michigan
but minorities automatically get 20 points added into that formula you put up


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Dave C
 


Posts: 48 | Posted: 2:52 PM on January 19, 2003 | IP
ghettocracka

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ok i just made myself sound stupid

i didnt see on your list the minority one
my fault


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Dave C
 


Posts: 48 | Posted: 2:53 PM on January 19, 2003 | IP
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"Affirmative action" is simply a political speak for reverse discrimination.  Please do not make any more of it than what it is.  Do not let very simple logic get clouded by the BS spin done by those who support this.  Generally it is brainwashed naive whites and blacks/hispanics who simply want to be favored for jobs/schools/promotions/etc.
It really is laughable that this is a "debate".
And stop stating this is about "minorities" as if all minorities are included.  Only blacks/hispanics/Native americans are generally included.
Asians who came to this country often in similar circumstances to the favored minorities are not included. Why?  Because they did not obsessively blame whites for their problems, and demand special treatment.  Instead they emphasized hard work, education, and self reliance.  It has worked so well that the Asians who built the railroads in squalor have descendants that are so successful they need no extra help.
This of course leaves out any biological differences.  But if these truly do not exist, then the only logical explanation for the success of Asians is the different approach they have taken.  Perhaps blacks/hispanics should emulate them.
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 10:54 PM on January 19, 2003 | IP
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A lot of people seem to want things half and half, but I think they've failed to realize that 80% of the population is white. Of course you aren't going to have equal numbers!


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Don't tell me I'm conservative...I know that!
 


Posts: 351 | Posted: 12:27 PM on January 20, 2003 | IP
wakkochik

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Affirmative action is so wrong that it even smells. GOD almighty created everyone with a brain and abilities that must be cultivated. Those who are unfortunate enough to be legitamately disabled is another topic. However, the US Constitution says all men/ women are created equally. Then we must all be treated equally. Minorities still hold on to things that happened 200 years ago and for which nobody responsible is still alive. Affirmative Action is still another excuse which states that minorities are totally unable and incapable of getting through life under their own steam. They must ask for handouts. Just look at the history. Food stamps, welfare, subsidized housing, and it still goes on today. Affirmative Action blares out loudly that minorites cannot take care of themselves so they must use others. It speaks rather lowly of minorites' skills and capabilities. What a pitiful shame. GOD says in the Bible that if a person does not work then they don't eat. GOD says in the Bilbe that we are to go through life under our own steam. What a difference it would make in the self-esteem/self-confidence within oneself to know factually that they completed an education,etc. under their own efforts without help from others. To get extra points for being a minority does not make sense because it says that we are not created equal and that we donot have equal rights. Horse feathers. Minorites often speak of 'gettin over' and that's precisely the intent of Affirmative Action.

[A] Always
[F] Fretfully
[F] Flittering
[I] In
[R] Ridiculous
[M] Moronic
[A] Actions
[T] To
[I] Ignorantly
[V] Validate
[E] EXCUSES

[A] Always
[C] Complaining
[T] Thoughtlessly
[I] In
[O] Obvious
[N] NONSENSE
 


Posts: 1 | Posted: 7:30 PM on January 20, 2003 | IP
ghettocracka

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wakkochic said it all

i agree


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Dave C
 


Posts: 48 | Posted: 01:51 AM on January 21, 2003 | IP
aasha_

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Quote from teddyb at 2:53 PM on January 18, 2003 :
I don't think that african americans are the only ones being discriminated so have all the other races, like hispanics, asians, and even white people in some cases. what do you think would happen if instead of BET(Black Entertainment Television) it was WET(White Entertainment Television)?? Hell would brake loose. So the heck with this afirmative action and let the best man/women get the benefit wether if he or she is black white, hispanic, etc..


Yes other people have faced decrimination... That's not the point ...Please read carefully...

Affirmative action was created to correct centuries of descrimination bondage and racism... supported and enforce by the government of the United States of America...

Do you guys understand the difference...

Racism...slavery and  descrimination against blacks were are legal...

We wre not counted as citizens ...black had no legal way to defend their constitutional rights...

Tat's the difference between us and all of the other groups...

Aff. Action was the easiest cheapest way for the US government to make up for centeries of Legalized racism...which was supported and enforced by the government...

I think they got off easy because Affirmative Action is in no way an equitable settlement for the suffering that black American's have endored...


I have to respond to the BET comment ...

Excuse me but every channel is WET... in my opinion...
What are you talking about ...?

When BET started it was basically a video channel... It played the videos by black artists  that MTV which had a majority white audience wouldn't play...

when MTV started they refused to play RAP videos... and  Michael Jackson was the first black artist on MTV.... and one of the few.... Because of BET  so  many black artists have been given exposure that they could no longer  be ignored by other channels like VH1 and MTV....  

That's why we needed a BET so we can see the stuff that we liked...  the stuff that the main stream believes is TOO Black...
You have the game all twisted and F'd up...

We don't have BET to discriminate... We have BET because the mainstream media doesn't  allow us true creative expression.... unless it fits the stereotypes... interests and sensibilities  of the widest audiences... which are predominately white...


None of the major media outlets are run by or owned by blacks... BET used to be but it's not anymore...

So where do we go for another perspective where should we go to see people like us who expose our views...

If you look at the posts on this site alone...it's quite obvious that even a lot of young white American's have extremely biased views about blacks.... our culture our heritage and our points of veiw are not respected....
I have read posts from a few sympathizers   but most of you don't think very highly of blacks.... you don't understand us... and you know very little about us....outside of what you see on tv... and in the news...

We always hear YOUR points of view... we know exactly how you feel about us....
But must we beat over the head with it every single day everywhere we look...
That's why we haVE alternatives like BET

That's one of the few channels where we don't have to be constantly reminded of how shitty you think we are...

And I really enjoy having an alternative...

Wouldn't You...?

(Edited by aasha_ 1/29/2003 at 12:12 PM).
 


Posts: 29 | Posted: 11:44 AM on January 21, 2003 | IP
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Quote from wakkochik at 7:30 PM on January 20, 2003 :
Affirmative action is so wrong that it even smells. GOD almighty created everyone with a brain and abilities that must be cultivated. Those who are unfortunate enough to be legitamately disabled is another topic. However, the US Constitution says all men/ women are created equally. Then we must all be treated equally. Minorities still hold on to things that happened 200 years ago and for which nobody responsible is still alive. Affirmative Action is still another excuse which states that minorities are totally unable and incapable of getting through life under their own steam. They must ask for handouts. Just look at the history. Food stamps, welfare, subsidized housing, and it still goes on today. Affirmative Action blares out loudly that minorites cannot take care of themselves so they must use others. It speaks rather lowly of minorites' skills and capabilities. What a pitiful shame. GOD says in the Bible that if a person does not work then they don't eat. GOD says in the Bilbe that we are to go through life under our own steam. What a difference it would make in the self-esteem/self-confidence within oneself to know factually that they completed an education,etc. under their own efforts without help from others. To get extra points for being a minority does not make sense because it says that we are not created equal and that we donot have equal rights. Horse feathers. Minorites often speak of 'gettin over' and that's precisely the intent of Affirmative Action.

[A] Always
[F] Fretfully
[F] Flittering
[I] In
[R] Ridiculous
[M] Moronic
[A] Actions
[T] To
[I] Ignorantly
[V] Validate
[E] EXCUSES

[A] Always
[C] Complaining
[T] Thoughtlessly
[I] In
[O] Obvious
[N] NONSENSE



Well spoken...

Is this a class issue or a race issue...
Despite what you may think.... all blacks are not on welfare...

Blacks are not the only people on welfare...

The government also gives handouts subsidies to multibillion dollar coorporations...
that don't need it... corporations that still layoff thousands of people....
which are you more disgusted by....
a housing subsidy for a poor person... or a subsidy to a muliti-billion dollor  corporation...

Let's not confuse race issues with class issues...
"Minorities "  blacks have done very well in this society  in the last 40 years despite racism...

Considering 300 years of slavery... 100 years of legalized oppression... We have done pretty damn good... in 40 years...That's one generation....

So please...

Also, I Think God Almighty is always on the side of the down- trodden... sweety... I don't think god almighty sides with oppressors.... racists... bigots... and  the wealthy class...
So be careful when you call God into question and be sure you are on the right side when you do so...
 


Posts: 29 | Posted: 3:30 PM on January 21, 2003 | IP
fallingupwards84

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many of us believe that is MORE racist to support affirmative action. by supporting affirmative action, you support judging people by the color of their skin. i'm sorry, but i dont think that God is racist. if you do, that is fine. but i sure dont


-------
i am a liberal chrisitian and proud of it!!!

"Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most - that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least." - Eugene Debs
 


Posts: 971 | Posted: 4:03 PM on January 21, 2003 | IP
aasha_

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Quote from fallingupwards84 at 4:03 PM on January 21, 2003 :
many of us believe that is MORE racist to support affirmative action. by supporting affirmative action, you support judging people by the color of their skin. i'm sorry, but i dont think that God is racist. if you do, that is fine. but i sure dont

I know you believe that whites are being decriminated against...
Whites are not being hired
Whites are not getting into college because of Affir. Action
You believe that less qualified blacks are taking positions from well qualified whites...

Again none of those fears are substantiated...

You are not being dicriminated against and you aren't losing anything...
you are more likely
to graduate from highschool
to graduate from college
and to find a good job than the average black person....

so rest your minds there is nothing fear...


And all your ranting and raving show me that we still have a long way to go before we will improve race relations in this country....

 


Posts: 29 | Posted: 4:26 PM on January 21, 2003 | IP
    
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