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>It was the easiest and cheapest way to >make up for centuries of wrong doings..by >our government... which affected the lives of  >millions of AMERICAN CITIZENS...
>I repeat ...CENTURIES...of wrong... by the >government....

it is the easiest and cheapest way, according
to your opinion, and like minded-people.
often times, anyone disagreeing with this
position in the "real" world as well as this
board is labeled a racist.


>I think the Government Got off easy.. Don't >you?

the government isn't an abstract entity, it
is a living people. when seventy some percent
are judged on the color of their skin, i can't
call that progress.

>I think Black's deserve something a lot >greater than Aff. Action... for all the suffering >we have endored in this country...  at the >hands of our government... a government >which was created to protect every citizen's >right to life liberty and the pursuit of >happiness...

i think, if slavery were in effect today, i
would agree. but the fact is you were not
a slave. your forefathers were.

>I find it funny when people say that Blacks >should stop complaining about racism and >slavery because every nationaliy has had it >bad in our country...

yes and no. we all have a right to complain
and believe it or not, blacks seriously -- have
not been the most discriminated as far as
shear numbers. lets see, there are the
native americans who were given blankets
with horrible sickeness, there were the chinese
who were slave labor for rail roads, there were
the japanese, italians, and germans who were
forced in to camps, and the lists go on. these
have been protestant-catholic riots, etc.

you need to re-read history.

the logical question is this, if we were to
continue down this track, why not give
reperations to them as well?

why not give reperations to women, who
get the right to vote -AFTER- african american
men?

no one is doubting that many blacks were sold
as animals into slavery. no one is argueing
that was a terrible experiance. the question
is how to move on as a country beyond the
racial lines.

>These sentiments are true but you fail to >address one key difference... THE >GOVERNMENT SUPPORTED LEGALIZED >RACISM.... BONDAGE AND DESCRIMINATION...

come on. our government has supported a lot
of "evil" crimes in our past. luckly, we have
a free press and over time we strive for
equality.

>when it came to blacks...
>If you were a polish American and someone >burned down your house because they >hated you... you could call the police... and if >the person was caught... they would have >been put in jail...

yes, and today, if you are black and someone
burns down your house you can call the
police and hopefully the person will be
caught.

>Blacks were not protected under the >law....infact the law said that we were 3/4  of >a person... we weren't even counted as >human beings .. under the law... we couldn't >vote although we paid taxes... ...  The US >GOVERNMENT gave everyone the right to >victimize us.... and the government gave us >no legal recourse...
>So that's the difference...

and women couldn't vote, couldn't own
land, couldn't work...


>That's what we "complain" about and that's  >what we have had to overcome...  

along with many other groups.


>I think you guys need a serious history >lesson...

i doubt it. we want true equality.

>And we aren't complaing about something >that happened centuries ago... it's only been >forty years since we have ended  LEGALIZED >RACISM in this country... ...  which was a >system established by our "founding >fathers"...

founding fathers:
  were rich white protestant males.

eventually, middle class white males could
vote. then all white males. then all males.
and finally all 18yrs+

the bottom line is, you have not changed
my opinion. in fact, the very reasons you
mention for affirmative action are reasons
i could use against it. i.e. LEGALIZE
DISRIMINATION. doesn't that make sense?
you are advocating discrimination, perhaps
for a more noble cause but nevertheless,
it is discrimination.

hence, it would be, say, in my interest, to
instead see our government, our culture,
and the world instead center on rooting
out poverty and discrimination, instead of
a rubber stamp affirmative action program.

ask yourself this, how has affirmative action
really helped out african americans? many
people want to point to rice and powell, but
i really believe they could have made it on
their own. maybe that makes me a racist.

look at predominately african american
communities, how have they prospered?

why can't we fund those communities directly
instead of allowing discrimination in the work
force?

if the president offered aid to american cities,
most americans would get on board.

i am sure i haven't convienced you. and yet,
i am sure i will be called a racist. so i guess
i wait for your next post.

guest....
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 12:40 AM on January 31, 2003 | IP
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Now that's what I am talking About!
Now it's getting good...
I am going to respond to the issues you raised ... one by one... and this should definitely be an interesting debate...


1. I don't label opponents of Affirmative Action racist because they are against Affirmative action….I  think you guys are racist because most of you spend more time attacking blacks than you do Debating the pros and cons of Affirmative Action....

2. I consider the government a living entity... If I can sue the government for wrong doing then that means that I can hold the government responsible when it goes against the spirit of the Constitution and abuses my rights as a citizen!!!!
The government is an entity. It is responsible! It can be sued! And it can be held accountable!
Ask an attorney if you don't believe me...

3. I would like to remind you that women have benefited from Affirmative Action... Did you forget that... Also the "Black" Civil Rights movement has not ONLY benefited women in America but it's also benefited other minorities as well... So don't try to pit the interest of one group against the other... they have benefited because Blacks "complain" about justice....

3.
 the bottom line is, you have not changed
my opinion. in fact, the very reasons you
mention for affirmative action are reasons
i could use against it. i.e. LEGALIZE
DISRIMINATION. doesn't that make sense?
you are advocating discrimination, perhaps
for a more noble cause but nevertheless,
it is discrimination.
     



You guys are complaining about Aff. Action as if... you are really being discriminated against...

None of the schools that have Aff. Action even come close to having a black majority on campus... We are talking about schools where the black student population is 14% or less...

So you are being discriminated against because you think you deserve 99% of the slots instead of 86%...

That's not discrimination...

There was a time when these schools did not admit black students... now that's real discrimination!

Don't cha think...?

(The difference between what whites refer to as discrimination and what blacks refer to as discrimination is remarkable....).

And you are so passionate against what you call "reverse discrimination!" ..."It's wrong!"..." It's evil!" you all proclaim... yet ... When I argued that blacks have suffered greatly in America... you all dismiss it... either arguing that it was a long time ago or that it is insignificant because everybody has suffered...

What's interesting about your claims is that... If you believe that ... I ...don't have anything to complain about...

Then what on earth are YOU GUYS COMPLAINING FOR... whites  have benefited throughout the history of this country from racism ... how could you even fix your lips to complain about anything.... especially ... what you dub as "reverse discrimination".... And especially since there is no evidence what so ever that Whites are suffering in this country as a result of racism...

(Please when you respond to these remarks don't pick and chose random quotes respond to entire statement ....in context...)

4. I said Affirmative Action is the easiest cheapest way to correct 300 years of oppression and racism...

And I believe that to be true...

How could the government make up for the wrong it did to African AMERICANS?

The US  gave the Jews there own nation to make up for the holocaust

We have paid reparations to the American Indians and other groups that we have wronged...
But for some reason most people don’t  believe African Americans deserve reparations...

I have never said that I am for Affirmative Action...

Like I said I think America owes us A lot more than that...

I would like to see America change...

You could never repay African American's because America owes us too much...

5. yes slavery was 300 years ago... and  no I was never a slave.
However just 30 years ago my mother grew up in a segregated south  and my dad grew up in South Philadelphia...  neither of them could vote... And they attended all black schools due to segregation... My parents grew up in a society where laws did not apply to people of color...

All blacks suffer from the affects of "white superiority" and racism... Although we have legal remedies now...  the seeds were planted many years ago... if we are going to get rid of racism we would have to dig it up from its roots ...roots that have been growing for 300 years....

Anyway...

6. I have to respond to this:

I can see mentioning the American Indians but are you really going to compare these things to slavery... Do you know anything about American history and slavery....
yes and no. we all have a right to complain
and believe it or not, blacks seriously -- have
not been the most discriminated as far as
shear numbers. lets see, there are the
native Americans who were given blankets
with horrible sickness, there were the Chinese
who were slave labor for rail roads, there were
the Japanese, Italians, and Germans who were
forced in to camps, and the lists go on. these
have been protestant-catholic riots, etc.

Did it take 300 years to build the railroads?
Did 100’s of millions of people die building railroads...
Were they kept in bondage for 300 years building railroads ...raped by slave masters, families separated and sold like cattle? Can you really compare... the railroads... and riots ... to that?

7. Have you ever noticed that Blacks refer a lot to slavery and whites tend to believe that it is ancient history and it should be forgotten...?

There is a reason why blacks mention slavery.... and whites would just as soon forget about it...

It's a matter of legacy...

Blacks measure our success by how far we have come...slavery was a devastating part of our history  but it's how we got to this country... However painful... it is our legacy... 100 millions of people suffered for me to be able to be online right now debating about Aff. Action..  

Whites like to forget about slavery  ....and you dismiss it.... because your failures are tied to your involvement in slavery... so you like to distance yourselves as far as you can from the horrors of slavery... yet you still want to celebrate the confederate flag and the history of this great democracy....

Remembering slavery means that you have to admit that this nation has not stood  for everything that it claims to stand for and it means that you are not as great as you claim to be.... at least when it comes to freedom and democracy....

Legacy is very important in America....

Just like you want to celebrate your legacy ..
We have to pay homage to and remember our legacy... slavery was a very important part of our legacy….

7.  Powel and Rice did make it on their own... Affirmative Action just gave them the opportunity....
The fact is that many successful blacks today are where they are because of affirmative Action....
It's not that they didn't earn it... The problem is that in a racist society they would never have been given the opportunity....

ask yourself this, how has affirmative action
really helped out African Americans? many
people want to point to rice and powell, but
i really believe they could have made it on
their own. maybe that makes me a racist.


Stop trying to trivialize my arguments by saying that I am calling you a racist because you disagree with Affirmative Action...
If you can find one quote where I made a statement like that please post it...

8.
why can't we fund those communities directly
instead of allowing discrimination in the work
force?

This is an excellent idea... I would greatly prefer that over Affirmative Action... The fact of the matter is that many African American's are products of terrible public schools... and poor neighborhoods... If this could change we would not need Affirmative Action today...

But I don't think that we should get rid of Affirmative Action...until whites end racism...

You see,…….. we treat racism as if it were a black problem………. but it's not...
Whites need to Address it and root it out...
Since you believe in true equality! you need to enforce it amongst your friends, colleagues and family....
You are the only ones who can end racism...

So all of you champions of Equality!  need to end the need for programs like Affirmative Action.... by aggressively stamping out racism... in your communities.... amongst your elders and peers…..


founding fathers:
 were rich white protestant males.

eventually, middle class white males could
vote. then all white males. then all males.
and finally all 18yrs+
this isn't true.... They were not all rich protestants..
Most of the settlers were poor...
Many were criminals.... they released them from jail if they would come to the colonies...
Many were fleeing religious persecution...
Land was abundant and it was given away to settlers....

(Sounds like what you guys refer to as hand-outs... doesn't it...? So all of you that ask why blacks can't make it on their own like whites have ... are truly remiss in their understanding of American history... )

 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 10:53 AM on January 31, 2003 | IP
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Quote from Guest at 10:53 AM on January 31, 2003 :
Now that's what I am talking About!
Now it's getting good...
I am going to respond to the issues you raised ... one by one... and this should definitely be an interesting debate...


1. I don't label opponents of Affirmative Action racist because they are against Affirmative action….I  think you guys are racist because most of you spend more time attacking blacks than you do Debating the pros and cons of Affirmative Action....

some do. secondly, you claim, "you guys",
thereby classifying all caucasions together.
for the most part, i don't think that white
people consider themselves a group. we
generally think of ourselves as decendants
of italians, french, germans, etc. many white
families are proud of their family lines.

the reason the media and other communities
generally refer to blacks and blacks is simply:
we don't know what countries many of them
come to. i am sure many african americans
could try to look it up, through slave books
etc. nevertheless, most of the time i am sure
it is not a trival issue to uncover. (compared
to the 'average' white or hispanic, etc)


2. I consider the government a living entity... If I can sue the government for wrong doing then that means that I can hold the government responsible when it goes against the spirit of the Constitution and abuses my rights as a citizen!!!!
The government is an entity. It is responsible! It can be sued! And it can be held accountable!
Ask an attorney if you don't believe me...

yes and no. these are many issues here.
such as a possible statue of limitations.
furthermore, there are issues as to why
specificially someone should just be handled
money or favortism solely becuase of their color. imagine:
i'm from kenya and i move to the usa today.
i am black. yet, i am eligiable for your
affirmative action.  if AA is reparations, then
it should go to those who were discriminated.
not to blacks who were not decendents of
slaves. at least, according to your arguement,
in order -not- to be considered a racist, imo.

you can see a problem there. effectively,
people would have to prove their foreparents
were slaves... otherwise you are just promoting racism. surely you can agree with that.


3. I would like to remind you that women have benefited from Affirmative Action... Did you forget that... Also the "Black" Civil Rights movement has not ONLY benefited women in America but it's also benefited other minorities as well... So don't try to pit the interest of one group against the other... they have benefited because Blacks "complain" about justice....

women still make considerablely low wages
than their male counterparts. i am not
interested in "pit[ting] the interest of one
group against the other...". they also got
their freedom with in the frame work of the
constitution. i am not argueing that negates
the wrong, simply pointing it out. it is the
government who realized the wrong, and
corrected it...


3.
 
You guys are complaining about Aff. Action as if... you are really being discriminated against...

None of the schools that have Aff. Action even come close to having a black majority on campus... We are talking about schools where the black student population is 14% or less...

So you are being discriminated against because you think you deserve 99% of the slots instead of 86%...

That's not discrimination...

how dare you say that. when someone is
chosen because the color of their skin, we
ALL loose out. it is a form of discrimination,
period. i think we are being
discriminated because in some cases, blacks
are chosen over whites SOLELY because of
the color of their skin. why can't you see that?
a criterian they can not change.


(The difference between what whites refer to as discrimination and what blacks refer to as discrimination is remarkable....).


indeed. you argue about grievances of many
years ago, and i argue about grievances  
today.


And you are so passionate against what you call "reverse discrimination!" ..."It's wrong!"..." It's evil!" you all proclaim... yet ... When I argued that blacks have suffered greatly in America... you all dismiss it... either arguing that it was a long time ago or that it is insignificant because everybody has suffered...

and that is the underlying question. believe
it or not, many are not against the idea of
some kind of reparations. job discrimination
is not one of them. i can only say again, it
creates racism.


What's interesting about your claims is that... If you believe that ... I ...don't have anything to complain about...

i don't know about that. we can always complain.


Then what on earth are YOU GUYS COMPLAINING FOR... whites  have benefited throughout the history of this country from racism ... how could you even fix your lips to complain about anything.... especially ... what you dub as "reverse discrimination".... And especially since there is no evidence what so ever that Whites are suffering in this country as a result of racism...

that truely hurts. i guess, all the whites who
lost their lives fighting for "black freedom"
don't count. go watch mississippi buring.
you will see just ONE example of whites and
blacks working together for equality. please.
i am not argueing that all whites are good, nor
all whites are bad. what i am argueing is that
all whites should be treated equally to all
blacks. if you want reparations, petition the
government some other way. job discrimination
is only adding to the fuel of racism. you don't
understand how upset you would become when you don't get a promotion in the police
force because you are white. or when your
factory shuts down because they want more
african americans to fill their quota, so they
move to another town. just -try- to imagine.
and the justification basically is: screw you,
your forefathers -might- have benefitted from
affirmative action. not EVERY white person has
benefitted from it. *news flash*

i have said it before, i think the rich white
males have benefitted from slavery. consider
the south tho, many of them lost their wealth
after the civil war. we can sit here and play
all kinds of hypothetical situations and it
won't resolve the key issue: you wan't
discrimination today based on race in order
to make up past wrongs. i can't get on board
for that. sorry. surely there is some other
agreement we could come to -- to try and
make some kind of amends.


(Please when you respond to these remarks don't pick and chose random quotes respond to entire statement ....in context...)

well, for space's sake i just copy and pasted
your comments. i think i basically got the
bulk of what you said.


4. I said Affirmative Action is the easiest cheapest way to correct 300 years of oppression and racism...
And I believe that to be true...
How could the government make up for the wrong it did to African AMERICANS?

the real life answer to that question is that it can't. it can't ever make up for it.


The US  gave the Jews there own nation to make up for the holocaust
We have paid reparations to the American Indians and other groups that we have wronged...
But for some reason most people don’t  believe African Americans deserve reparations...

the jews, at least in my opinion, are a religious
organization. as such, they were constantly
discriminated against in europe and around
the world. AFTER the wholesale slaughter
of their people, our gov w/the uk decided
to give them isreal. now, how many jewish
countries are there? one. secondly, the
push in our country for isreal was made by:
people who felt bad we sat back as they
were destroyed, by jewish zionists, and by
devout christians who believe that the jews
returning to isreal is the first step to jesus
christ returning. so, there were many people
in this country for it. i would argue that
many people are against affirmative action
as it stands today. i could be wrong.


I have never said that I am for Affirmative Action...
Like I said I think America owes us A lot more than that...
I would like to see America change...
You could never repay African American's because America owes us too much...

yes. that is completely true. but acknowledge,
american also owes other groups. it wasn't
just african americans who have suffered here
in the usa because of our government policies.
blacks are not the only victems.


5. yes slavery was 300 years ago... and  no I was never a slave.
However just 30 years ago my mother grew up in a segregated south  and my dad grew up in South Philadelphia...  neither of them could vote... And they attended all black schools due to segregation... My parents grew up in a society where laws did not apply to people of color...

yes, and my father lost his job to an african
american. and my mother was raped by an
african american, and i don't hold any ill-will
towards them. i was mugged when i was
7 yrs old by african americans. my point
in saying that was not to blame blacks are a group, but point out that some are "bad".
some whites are "bad".


All blacks suffer from the affects of "white superiority" and racism... Although we have legal remedies now...  the seeds were planted many years ago... if we are going to get rid of racism we would have to dig it up from its roots ...roots that have been growing for 300 years....

prove it.i do not accept that premise. ALL blacks suffer today because they are black?
i don't believe it. anyone with money is good
to go today. i will not argue that racism doesnt
exist today. it does. i don't think the government should encourage it with the
AA program they have today.


Anyway...
6. I have to respond to this:
I can see mentioning the American Indians but are you really going to compare these things to slavery... Do you know anything about American history and slavery....

yes i do. in fact, i have a degree in it. lets see,
did we take over africa and kill blacks such that
they only make up a few percentage points of
the african population? no. we did that to the
native americans here. did you know the white
tried slavery on native americans? they found
them quote: to restless. in other words, they wouldn't do what the white masters told
them and so they were killed. in addition, they fought back much more (on average) and therefore they were killed.

yes and no. we all have a right to complain
and believe it or not, blacks seriously -- have
not been the most discriminated as far as
shear numbers. lets see, there are the
native Americans who were given blankets
with horrible sickness, there were the Chinese
who were slave labor for rail roads, there were
the Japanese, Italians, and Germans who were
forced in to camps, and the lists go on. these
have been protestant-catholic riots, etc.
The reply:
Did it take 300 years to build the railroads?
Did 100’s of millions of people die building railroads...
Were they kept in bondage for 300 years building railroads ...raped by slave masters, families separated and sold like cattle? Can you really compare... the railroads... and riots ... to that?

yes. i can, and i did.


7. Have you ever noticed that Blacks refer a lot to slavery and whites tend to believe that it is ancient history and it should be forgotten...?
There is a reason why blacks mention slavery.... and whites would just as soon forget about it...
It's a matter of legacy...

i think that is certainly true in some cases.


Blacks measure our success by how far we have come...slavery was a devastating part of our history  but it's how we got to this country... However painful... it is our legacy... 100 millions of people suffered for me to be able to be online right now debating about Aff. Action..  
Whites like to forget about slavery  ....and you dismiss it.... because your failures are tied to your involvement in slavery... so you like to distance yourselves as far as you can from the horrors of slavery... yet you still want to celebrate the confederate flag and the history of this great democracy....

look, i don't put myself in the same room as
some racist white man from the 1700s. sorry.
i have never beat my wife, i have never killed
an indian, and i have never owned a slave.
and i dont think i should be discriminated because i am white. sorry.


Remembering slavery means that you have to admit that this nation has not stood  for everything that it claims to stand for and it means that you are not as great as you claim to be.... at least when it comes to freedom and democracy....

absolelutely. i agree. but we strive to make ourselves better. i dont see how allowing discriminated today will push for equality. it can't. it won't. it only reinforces hatred.


Legacy is very important in America....
Just like you want to celebrate your legacy ..
We have to pay homage to and remember our legacy... slavery was a very important part of our legacy….

it was indeed.


7.  Powel and Rice did make it on their own... Affirmative Action just gave them the opportunity....
The fact is that many successful blacks today are where they are because of affirmative Action....

powell is the son of jamaican immigrants.
what are you talking about. therefore, if
affirmative action is about reparations, he
shouldn't have been eligible for it.


It's not that they didn't earn it... The problem is that in a racist society they would never have been given the opportunity....


tell that to OJ simpson. tell that to micheal
jackson. etc. but hey, i bet they only got
their positions because of affirmative action.
and what about magic johnson?

ask yourself this, how has affirmative action
really helped out African Americans? many
people want to point to rice and powell, but
i really believe they could have made it on
their own. maybe that makes me a racist.
REPLY:
Stop trying to trivialize my arguments by saying that I am calling you a racist because you disagree with Affirmative Action...
If you can find one quote where I made a statement like that please post it...

i never claimed you said i was a racist. nevertheless, you are not the sole supporter of affirmative action, and many supports would consider me a racist because of those comments. so be it. i want people to be treated equallty. if there happens to be more jews in the legal field, or more black basketball players then i think we should chalk it up to the best get the position, reguardless of race.


8.
why can't we fund those communities directly
instead of allowing discrimination in the work
force?
REPLY:
This is an excellent idea... I would greatly prefer that over Affirmative Action... The fact of the matter is that many African American's are products of terrible public schools... and poor neighborhoods... If this could change we would not need Affirmative Action today...

i agree.

But I don't think that we should get rid of Affirmative Action...until whites end racism...

that is where i disagree. i think if a white
person wants to be racist, that is their right.
no different than a black person who wants to be racist. it is when they actively harass the other party that the government should become involved. that is freedom of opinion.


You see,…….. we treat racism as if it were a black problem………. but it's not...
Whites need to Address it and root it out...
Since you believe in true equality! you need to enforce it amongst your friends, colleagues and family....

and i do. oh i do. i walk away from jokes, comments etc. do you? i see black comedians
making fun of "white" dancers, etc. i don't hold
that against the african american community.
there are all kinds of double standards i am willing to accept, but job discrimination is not one of them.


You are the only ones who can end racism...

wrong. wrong. wrong. -we- can end racism.
it wasn't king alone changed civil rights. it
was many followers of his ideals, both black
and white.


So all of you champions of Equality!  need to end the need for programs like Affirmative Action.... by aggressively stamping out racism... in your communities.... amongst your elders and peers…..

we are completely in disagreement about AA.
i think the goals are just, the process is not.


founding fathers:
 were rich white protestant males.

eventually, middle class white males could
vote. then all white males. then all males.
and finally all 18yrs+
REPLY:
this isn't true.... They were not all rich protestants..
Most of the settlers were poor...
Many were criminals.... they released them from jail if they would come to the colonies...
Many were fleeing religious persecution...
Land was abundant and it was given away to settlers....

(Sounds like what you guys refer to as hand-outs... doesn't it...? So all of you that ask why blacks can't make it on their own like whites have ... are truly remiss in their understanding of American history... )


that is not true. simply is not true. the people
who could vote, had the power, etc were rich
white protestant males. i do not accept your
arguement here.

i really enjoyed reading your opinions. i hope
you enjoy reading mine. AA as it stands is a
failure on many levels.

guest....
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 1:05 PM on January 31, 2003 | IP
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AASHA :
I have never said that I am for Affirmative Action...
Like I said I think America owes us A lot more than that...
I would like to see America change...
You could never repay African American's because America owes us too much...


GUESTS  reply:

yes. that is completely true. but acknowledge,
american also owes other groups. it wasn't
just african americans who have suffered here
in the usa because of our government policies.
blacks are not the only victems.


Aasha reply:
If other groups have a greivance they should take them to the courts and fight it out....
What on earth does that have to do with me or with the debaTE ABOUT aFFIRMATIVE aCTION....

Also when I say "owe"... I mean finacially the government and the capitalist system in America benefited from 300 years of free labor... that's how we became the richest country in the world....
---


5. yes slavery was 300 years ago... and  no I was never a slave.
However just 30 years ago my mother grew up in a segregated south  and my dad grew up in South Philadelphia...  neither of them could vote... And they attended all black schools due to segregation... My parents grew up in a society where laws did not apply to people of color...

Guests reply:
yes, and my father lost his job to an african
american. and my mother was raped by an
african american, and i don't hold any ill-will
towards them. i was mugged when i was
7 yrs old by african americans. my point
in saying that was not to blame blacks are a group, but point out that some are "bad".
some whites are "bad".

This is not a logical point...please pay attention... because I am about to school you....

Lets compare our lists of greivances so that I can finally bring home my point that you keep missing...

Your list
1. mother raped by African American
2. you mugged at 7 by african American
3. father lost his job to an african American(i guess this is never supposed to happen.... and i am guessing this was because of Affirmative Action)

my list
1. parents grew up in segrated south...
2.  neither could vote
3. both attended segrated schools...

Your list is talking about incidents where a black person either criminally attacked you or (I GUESS YOU BELIEVE)  Wrongfully "stole" your dad's jobs...

My list is refering to INSTANCES WHERE THE GOVERNMENT SUPPORTED UNFAIR LAWS...legal segregation and instances where my "PEOPLE"....wERE denied rights by the law...

I don't think you can compare the two.. unless those black people mugged you  BECAUSE YOU WERE WHITE and then when you went to court they were released by an all black jury...

I am talking about the law here... I am talking about legal protections....RIGHTS!!!!


LET'S STICK TO THE DEBATE HERE!!!!
1. I am asserting THAT Affirmative Action was created as a remedy for years of legalized racism... injustice in the American Constitutional and Legal Systems...


2.
I am asserting  that Whites are not suffering in this country as a result of racism...
Please lets stay on topic...

I AM ASSERTING Racism is about power... my definition of racism (as it has worked in the US) is bigotry + power.... Hating a group of people and having the power to determine their destiny or subvert their rights... And that power comes by controling the law and legal system...

---
Aasha'S REPLY:
All blacks suffer from the affects of "white supremacy" and racism... Although we have legal remedies now...  the seeds were planted many years ago... if we are going to get rid of racism we would have to dig it up from its roots ...roots that have been growing for 300 years....



Guests reply:
prove it.i do not accept that premise. ALL blacks suffer today because they are black?
i don't believe it. anyone with money is good
to go today. i will not argue that racism doesnt
exist today. it does. i don't think the government should encourage it with the
AA program they have today.

AASHA:
I don't have to prove it... I am a black woman and I am telling you... You don't have to believe me....
I challenge you to
Ask the next black person you see ... how they are affected by "white supremacy" in American society...
Ask it just like that.... don't change the question around.... ok..

Guest you asked the question:"ALL blacks suffer today because they are black?"

The answer is : No
I said they suffer do to white supremacy...
Every black person in America has suffered because of white supremacy or racism directly...
---




Anyway...
6. I have to respond to this:
I can see mentioning the American Indians but are you really going to compare those other things to slavery... Do you know anything about American history and slavery....


Guest reply:

yes i do. in fact, i have a degree in it. lets see,
did we take over africa and kill blacks such that
they only make up a few percentage points of
the african population? no. we did that to the
native americans here. did you know the white
tried slavery on native americans? they found
them quote: to restless. in other words, they wouldn't do what the white masters told
them and so they were killed. in addition, they fought back much more (on average) and therefore they were killed.

yes and no. we all have a right to complain
and believe it or not, blacks seriously -- have
not been the most discriminated as far as
shear numbers. lets see, there are the
native Americans who were given blankets
with horrible sickness, there were the Chinese
who were slave labor for rail roads, there were
the Japanese, Italians, and Germans who were
forced in to camps, and the lists go on. these
have been protestant-catholic riots, etc.

Aasha's reply...
My grand parents on both sides are Native American's...
Anyway you took my statements out of context...
I said .. "I could see"... meaning that it is legitimate for you to mention the struggles of Native American's but the other examples like the railroad example and the riots don't compare...

About native American's and Slavery...
Native American's did not make "good" slaves  because they were on their own land therefore it was easier for them  to  escape and to know where to go to survive.... Native American's also assisted some blacks in escaping from slavery...
They  also tried white slavery or indentured survitude ,... but the white slaves would escape and they blended into the rest of the population.... so that didn't work very well... either...

Any way you missed my point..
we had a 300 year history of slavery in the US.. and no matter what you say it was significant....
I don't understand your arguments that others have suffered....

The native american's have sued the US government...
Other groups have sued the US government for reparations...

And African American's have the right to something from the government after all it was the US Government that didn't protect our constitutional rights....

So again I beg the question....
What does the fact that other groups have suffered have to do with this debate....
Those groups have a right to go to court and do whatever they feel they need to do to seek justice...

And many of them also benefit from Affirmative Action....



---
Aasha reply:
Did it take 300 years to build the railroads?
Did 100’s of millions of people die building railroads...
Were they kept in bondage for 300 years building railroads ...raped by slave masters, families separated and sold like cattle? Can you really compare... the railroads... and riots ... to that?



Guests reply:
yes. i can, and i did.

Aasha's reply:
Well I disagree...
I don't think it's a matter of comparing one group to Another....
I don't understand your logic...
All of those groups have a right to be compensated for what they suffered.... So why do you compare... them... And actually all minority groups especially women benifited from Afrimative Action... So we are not against one another... I am a woman... I have native American heritage and I am African American....


---

7. Have you ever noticed that Blacks refer a lot to slavery and whites tend to believe that it is ancient history and it should be forgotten...?
There is a reason why blacks mention slavery.... and whites would just as soon forget about it...
It's a matter of legacy...


Guests reply:

i think that is certainly true in some cases.

Aasha's reply:
Blacks measure our success by how far we have come...slavery was a devastating part of our history  but it's how we got to this country... However painful... it is our legacy... 100 millions of people suffered for me to be able to be online right now debating about Aff. Action..  
Whites like to forget about slavery  ....and you dismiss it.... because your failures are tied to your involvement in slavery... so you like to distance yourselves as far as you can from the horrors of slavery... yet you still want to celebrate the confederate flag and the history of this great democracy....



Guest reply:
look, i don't put myself in the same room as
some racist white man from the 1700s. sorry.
i have never beat my wife, i have never killed
an indian, and i have never owned a slave.
and i dont think i should be discriminated because i am white. sorry.

Aasha reply...
I wouldn't compare you to a racist slave holder in the 1700's....either... I think that's a bit illogocal...  However, You are not being descriminated against...  How many blacks are in college and how many are in the work force....?

Our numbers are so few that statistically speaking... we could never take a significant part of college admissions or of the job market....
So again ----your fears are irrational and unsubstantiated...
YOU ARE NOT BEING DISCRIMINATED AGAINST!!!....
---



Aasha's reply:
Remembering slavery means that you have to admit that this nation has not stood  for everything that it claims to stand for and it means that you are not as great as you claim to be.... at least when it comes to freedom and democracy....



Guests reply:
absolelutely. i agree. but we strive to make ourselves better. i dont see how allowing discriminated today will push for equality. it can't. it won't. it only reinforces hatred.

Aasha's Reply :
the hatred is already there and in most case it is rooted in ignorance
FOR EXAMPLE:
WHEN WHITES WHO MAKE UP 70% OF THE POPLULATION THINK THAT THEY ARE LOSING JOBS AND COLLEGE PLACEMENTS  TO BLACKS WHO MAKE UP LESS THAN  12% OF THE POPULATION...

THESE  are the ignorant fears that usually fester to create hatred and bigotry...


---
7.  Powel and Rice did make it on their own... Affirmative Action just gave them the opportunity....
The fact is that many successful blacks today are where they are because of affirmative Action....



Guests reply:
powell is the son of jamaican immigrants.
what are you talking about. therefore, if
affirmative action is about reparations, he
shouldn't have been eligible for it.

Aasha's reply:
Powel is an American citizen.. He said himself that he benifited from Affirmative Action...
Remember Affirmative action helps more than just African Americans...
Many groups have jumped on the civil rights struggle in America...

Even CLarence Thomas who is against AA admitted that he benefited from it...

---
Aasha:
It's not that they didn't earn it... The problem is that in a racist society they would never have been given the opportunity....

Guests Reply:
tell that to OJ simpson. tell that to micheal
jackson. etc. but hey, i bet they only got
their positions because of affirmative action.
and what about magic johnson?

Aasha:

These people are sports stars and Entertainers... Blacks can do more than sing and dance and jump...

that's why we need better educational opportunities..

---

Aasha's reply:
But I don't think that we should get rid of Affirmative Action...until whites end racism...



Guest reply:
that is where i disagree. i think if a white
person wants to be racist, that is their right.
no different than a black person who wants to be racist. it is when they actively harass the other party that the government should become involved. that is freedom of opinion.

Aasha reply:
You have a right hate whoever you want....
But when you have power to affect the destiny or the Constitutional rights of a group of people then you are wrong....

Aasha reply
You see,…….. we treat racism as if it were a black problem………. but it's not...
Whites need to Address it and root it out...
Since you believe in true equality! you need to enforce it amongst your friends, colleagues and family....



Guests reply:
and i do. oh i do. i walk away from jokes, comments etc. do you? i see black comedians
making fun of "white" dancers, etc. i don't hold
that against the african american community.
there are all kinds of double standards i am willing to accept, but job discrimination is not one of them.

Aasha's  Reply:

Allow me to digress:
Come on are really going to use comedians as examples... I personally think black comedians do more harm to black people than good... all that nigga nigga nigga... shit.... nobody wants to hear that.... it's very offensive....


Let me give you an example...
just like there are CERTAIN things that you would say to your best friend, lover or family member that you wouldn't say in a public auditoriuim....

there are things that black people say to one another that these comediams should not repeat to a larger audience that does not understand us....

They are expoiting there own culture for profit and the quality of their art is questionabble...

In other words they aren't even funny in most cases.... but they degrade themselves and their community with the profanity and ignorance....
So I wouldn't  use them as an example...
---

Aasha's reply:
You are the only ones who can end racism...


Guest's reply...

wrong. wrong. wrong. -we- can end racism.
it wasn't king alone changed civil rights. it
was many followers of his ideals, both black
and white.

Aasha's reply:
You missed my point...
The point is that yes whites have been involved in the civil right movement and have led to the success of the movement and if many many many more white got involved racism  would end completely....
---


Aasha's reply
So all of you champions of Equality!  need to end the need for programs like Affirmative Action.... by aggressively stamping out racism... in your communities.... amongst your elders and peers…..



Guest reply....
we are completely in disagreement about AA.
i think the goals are just, the process is not.

Aasha reply...
I think we are in agreement about AA...

We both believe that there could be a better solution...

We are in disagreement about a range of other things...

You think whites are suffering from racism and discrimination...
I don't think so...

You think that blacks shouldn't complain about slavery...jim crow....systemic racism or white superiority... because other people have suffered in America

I think that's an illogical premise and conclusion
\

And we disagree about some historical facts...
etc...

---
guests reply

founding fathers:
were rich white protestant males.

eventually, middle class white males could
vote. then all white males. then all males.
and finally all 18yrs+
REPLY:
this isn't true.... They were not all rich protestants..
Most of the settlers were poor...
Many were criminals.... they released them from jail if they would come to the colonies...
Many were fleeing religious persecution...
Land was abundant and it was given away to settlers....

(Sounds like what you guys refer to as hand-outs... doesn't it...? So all of you that ask why blacks can't make it on their own like whites have ... are truly remiss in their understanding of American history... )




guests reply:
that is not true. simply is not true. the people
who could vote, had the power, etc were rich
white protestant males. i do not accept your
arguement here.

i really enjoyed reading your opinions. i hope
you enjoy reading mine. AA as it stands is a
failure on many levels.

guest reply:
I think we will have to refer to the history books on this point...

 

 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 1:29 PM on February 4, 2003 | IP
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Hi, I saw this and thought I'd respond.
I am for Affirmative Action. Negros were
bred as slaves. As animals. And like
someone might breed a cat or dog for
some trait, so too were Negros. They were
bred to be stupid, entertaining, and have
stamina & endurance. That is why there are
so many in sports & entertainment. They are
just not that bright. Look at beagles, i love
them but they are stupid and tend to be
small. Those are racial charectoristics.
So too are African Americans that the
children of slaves. Give them Affirmative Action.
If they don't get it, they won't ever get a leg
up on their own. Now Jews, they are not
very strong but shit they are smart. Look at
how they have been treated around the world
and still they overcome. I mean come on, the
only successfully intellectual Negros either
look white or act white. I mean if I am going
to bred an animal I am looking for someone
with a big cock and a stupid look. Any smart
ass Negro slave would be killed. The least
we can do is give them Affirmative Action.
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 11:01 PM on February 10, 2003 | IP
duckjaws

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Jesus Christ Man!  Are you late for your Klan Rally.
 


Posts: 20 | Posted: 11:46 PM on February 10, 2003 | IP
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no he is right on time!!!

whoa whoa!!!

Let's get'em JEB!!!
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 4:17 PM on February 12, 2003 | IP
    
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