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MrTimbo3686

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I am glad that this debate is being spoken out about. I am 17 yrs. old and I have a few opinions about this. I attend WRVTS of connecticut. In school the techers teach us kids that the Confederate Battle Flag is racism and the KKK! Now being the person I am I don't believe in their thoughts at all. The only thing that gets me is if you attend this school and mainly all the schools around the Connecticut area will suspend you from school for anywhere between 2-5 days just for wearing any Confederate Battle Flag apparell. This is something that has to be stopped! This is a sensative subject and the kids should have their own 1st. ammendment rights to wear the Confederate Battle Flag during school.
 


Posts: 2 | Posted: 4:14 PM on April 27, 2003 | IP
StormCrow

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93,000 Free black men fought for the confederacy? Just out of curiousity, can you tell me where yo ugot those numbers? Are you sure you aren't talking about black men who were freed so they're white (former) masters wouldn't have to join the army?

Secondly let me say Falling Upwards, I do agree with you on this. It's funny because you have all these people saying how the confederate flag isn't racist. I wonder why I've never seen any black people at these "pro confederate flag" rallies. While it's true the Civil War didnt' start over slavery, it did become an issue. And as a result of the union winning, the civil rights movement was at least started. Maybe we should start Flying the Union Flag again, let's wave that around...oh yeah...NO ONE GIVES A SHIT! I agree, do whatever you want with the damn flag, it's your freedom of speech, but when I look at the confederate flag I see the symbol of a rebellion that was defeated. A rebel flag doesn't belong on a government building. As for you people who claim that flying the nazi flag is ok. You people are entirely off your rockers. If you need a history lesson here it is, HITLER WAS THE FOUNDER OF THE NAZI PARTY. Not everyman in the nazi party was a genocidal lunatic, but those who aren't sure aren't proud of the fact that they supported one.


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"The Way of the Warrior is the two-fold path of pen and sword. Even if a man possess no natural inclination he may be a warrior by sticking assidously to both divisions of the Way."

-Shinmen Musashi
 


Posts: 112 | Posted: 4:16 PM on April 28, 2003 | IP
MrTimbo3686

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Are you aware that the confederate flag was flying during slavery for only 4 years while the regular stars and stripes was flying under slavery from 1776-1866! Now you tell me why exactly is it the confederate battle flag that is racist? It should be the damn stars and stripes for slavery being under it for so long! This is our first amendment rights and noone can do anything about it!
 


Posts: 2 | Posted: 7:29 PM on May 1, 2003 | IP
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[b][color=red][size=14] The Confederate flag is simply a symbol of southern pride.  Flying a confederate flag does not mean your are racist.  It is a southern thing and it is showing pride fromt he Civil War.  I am not racist and I support the Confederate flag, I am from Kentucky and have southern pride.  Yes this flag is often used in the wrong way but judging it to mean racism is being just as ridiculous as those using it as a symbol of racism.  It is used a racist symbol by a small minoriyt of the people who fly it.
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 9:12 PM on May 4, 2003 | IP
StormCrow

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It should be the damn stars and stripes for slavery being under it for so long!

You're right! We shouldn't consider the fact that under those stars and stripes, minorities have equal rights and affermative action, which is more than fair (I think it's actually overly fair, but that's not the issue). Certainly there are alot of blacks in the south. How come it's not a matter of "southern pride" to them? But leaving all racial issues asside. It's a symbol of political rebellion on a NATIONAL scale. I'm not saying you shouldn't be able to, if you really wanna fly a nazi flag that's your buisness, but know the impications of what you're labeling yourself. When you fly the rebel flag, that is in my opinion, a rebelious action. Again it is your personal right to say whatever you want, via the first amendment, so long as you don't infringe on the rights of others. So I'm not judging it JUST on the racism that many people see it as, but also on the fact that it is a REBEL flag. You're certianly welcome to have all the southern pride you want, but despite the valliant rebel soldiers, the courageous leadership, and the lack of formidable strategy by northern leaders, the south still lost the war. Take all the pride in that, that you want.


-------
"The Way of the Warrior is the two-fold path of pen and sword. Even if a man possess no natural inclination he may be a warrior by sticking assidously to both divisions of the Way."

-Shinmen Musashi
 


Posts: 112 | Posted: 04:31 AM on May 5, 2003 | IP
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Many historians, and students of history, will agree that blacks served by the thousands in the Confederate Army.  They will dispute, however, that these blacks served as soldiers, and will dismiss their service as that of servants—attached to the Army, but not soldiers in the Army.  The thesis here is that black Southerners served as soldiers in the Army, not just with the Southern Army.  



     That evidence is clear:  Black Confederates served by the thousands, and they served as soldiers.  I present the evidence below in several categories.  The strongest evidence concerns proclamations by Southern States governors, or authorizations by Southern State legislatures, specifically calling for black soldiers.  Finally, near the close of the War, the Confederate Government reversed its official, if ignored policy, and enlisted thousands of slaves as Confederate soldiers.  



Non-combat Job Classifications are Part of Today’s Army

      Black Southerners served as teamsters, cooks, musicians, nurses, hospital attendants, blacksmiths, hostlers, foragers, wheelwrights in the Army of the Confederate States of America.  Few dispute this assertion.  We have these categories in today’s army.  Therefore, by today’s standards, these black Southerners were soldiers.  



To the Confederate army goes the distinction of having the first black to minister to white troops.  A Tennessee regiment had sought diligently for a chaplain, but had been unsuccessful until “Uncle Lewis,” who accompanied the regiment, was asked to conduct a religious service.  Soldiers were so pleased that they asked Lewis to serve as their chaplain, which he did from the time of Pittsburgh Landing to war's end.  “He is heard with respectful attention and for earnestness, zeal, and sincerity, can be surpassed by none"-- Religious Herald 10 Sept 1863.  To the men of the regiment as well as to the editors of the Richmond newspaper, the service of the black chaplain was a matter of great pride (Barrow, 2001).  



Black Southerners served as laborers on fortifications:  The National Park Service, with a recent discovery, recognized that blacks were asked to help defend the city of Petersburg, Virginia, and were offered their freedom if they did so.  Regardless of their official classification, black Americans performed support functions that in today's army would be classified as official military service. The successes of white Confederate troops in battle was achieved only with the support these loyal black Southerners (Williams, “On Black Confederates” web site).  



General Joe Johnston wrote in early 1864 to Senator Wigfall:  “I propose to substitute slaves for all soldiers … as cooks, engineer laborers, pioneers, or on any kind of work.  Such details for this little army amount to more than 10,000 men.  Negroes would serve for such purposes better than soldiers” (Vandiver, 1970, p. 264).  Again, in today’s army, these job classifications are filled by soldiers.  



Applying today’s standards to the past, blacks did serve as soldiers in the Confederate Army.  No historian, however, likes to apply later standards to earlier history, and we now move on to more substantive evidence.  However, by today’s standards, blacks did serve as soldiers—as teamsters, cooks, musicians, nurses, and in other roles that are jobs in today’s army.  



Equal Treatment of Black and White Army

      “Employees” Ordered by General Johnston

    General Order Number 38, issued by Confederate General Braxton Bragg at Tullahoma, Tennessee, in January 1863, stated, "All employees of this army, black as well as white, shall receive the same rations, quarters, and medical treatment."  The Confederate Army was providing equal treatment at a time when the U.S. Army was discriminating against black men in the matter of pay (Barrow, et al. 2001).  The Confederate government authorized equal pay for musicians, many of whom were black, in contrast to the Federal Army, in which musicians received lower pay.  The Confederate Congress passed legislation requiring that black and white military bandsmen receive the same pay.  Free black musicians, cooks, soldiers and teamsters earned the same pay as white Confederate privates.  This was not the case in the Union army (Barrow, et al., 2001).  



Confederate Government Impressment

      “The War Department was authorized to impress up to 20,000 blacks.  State governors also drew on “private property” so that whites could fight more and dig less.  …The military also rented or impressed black men, slave and free, to cook and drive wagons and ambulances … in several large hospitals more than one-half of the male nurses were black.  Government and private manufacturers hired or rented black labor for skilled and unskilled work.  In 1865, for example, 310 of 400 workers in the naval ordnance works at Selma, Alabama were black.  As the war wore on, the trend toward black labor became more pronounced.  Every black man employed meant one more available white soldier” (Thomas, 1971, pp. 119-132).   In Thomas’s work, we again see documentation that black Southerners served in roles now considered part of the modern army, as teamsters, etc.  



Evidence that black Southerners served as soldiers for the Confederacy appears in Southern states records.  



The Tennessee Legislature Authorizes Male Persons of Color for Military Service

     In June 1861, the Tennessee legislature authorized the governor to accept for military service all male persons of color between the ages of 15 and 50.  By that time one Negro company from Nashville already had joined a white regiment in marching east to fight in Virginia (Wesley, 1927, p. 107; Barrow, 2001).



The 1st Louisiana Native Guards  

      In May 1861, Governor Thomas O. Moore of Louisiana issued a proclamation providing for the enrollment of free blacks in an all-black regiment with some black officers.  By early 1862, nearly 3000 men had joined this regiment and other nearby units around New Orleans.  Their officers were skilled tradesmen, craftsmen, and even a few slave owners.  There were several sets of fathers and sons and sets of brothers in this regiment, and “all the males in the large Duphart family were members” (Rollins, 1994, pages 22-23).  Black officers included:  



           Captain Noel Bachus, 40, a carpenter and landowner;

Captain Michael Duphart, a 62-year old wealthy shoemaker, and

Lt. Andre Cailloux, a cigar maker and boxer.  



The 1st Louisiana Native Guards was a 1307 man regiment with some black officers.  It included many of the leading individuals in the New Orleans black community.  Like most Southern militia regiments early in the war, they provided their own arms, and uniforms.  They spent the greater part of their Confederate service as Provost Guards, although there is some indication that part of the regiment saw action at Fort Jackson during the New Orleans campaign (Official Records, I, 6, 858).  Black Louisianans played a significant part in Louisiana’s military history ever since the beginning of settlement.  They fought for, and against, the French, the Spanish, the English, as well as with Andrew Jackson in the Battle of New Orleans in 1815.  By late 1861, about 3000 black Louisianans were enrolled in state troops and militia organizations, in the state, in service to the Confederate cause (Rollins, 1994, 22; 167-168).  



Five Units of Confederate Blacks in Mobile, Alabama

      Black Southerners in Mobile, Alabama took part in the defense of that city.  In early 1862 a citizen wrote to the Government that he could organize a regiment of Creoles – a term for people of mixed blood—he wrote “they are as true to the South as the pure white race.  I can raise [a regiment] in a few days.”  Black confederates were already organized and working on the city’s defenses by early 1862, and in November 1862, the state legislature of Alabama passed an act authorizing the raising of troops of “mixed blood … commonly known as Creoles” for the defense of the city.  Major General Dabney Maury had written to the Adjutant General of the Confederacy, asking to enlist Creoles in Confederate service as artillerymen in the defense of Mobile.  In August of 1864, the Confederate commander of Mobile formed a unit of cavalry with some blacks in it, and in October he ordered the city to enlist Creoles and free blacks; five different units of black troops were active in Mobile (Rollins, 1994, pp. 25-26).  



Confederate Government Enlists Black Soldiers, March 1865

      In March 1865, the Confederate government began actively recruiting and enlisting black soldiers.  In early 1865 Robert E. Lee publicly advocated the enlistment of black troops, and in March the Confederate Congress authorized raising 300,000 new troops “irrespective of color.”  General Ordinance No. 14 stated “no slave will be accepted unless with his own consent and with the approbation of his master by a written instrument conferring the rights of freedmen …” (Official Record, IV, 3, 1161).  Shortly after, one witness recorded that the streets of Richmond were filled with 10,000 Negroes who had been gathered at Camp Lee on the outskirts of Richmond.  Negroes were armed and placed in trenches near Richmond” (Rollins, 1994, p. 26).  



A book length treatment of this topic is the excellent The Gray and the Black:  Confederate Debate on Emancipation by Robert F. Durden.  



The evidence presented here from a variety of sources is clear:  Black Southerners served in the Confederate Army as soldiers.  



References



Barrow, C. K., &  Segars, J. H., & R.B. Rosenburg, R.B. (Eds.) (2001).  Black Confederates.  Gretna:  

      Pelican Publishing Company, 191 pages.  



Durden, Robert F. (1972).  The Gray and the Black:  Confederate Debate on Emancipation.  Baton

       Rouge:  Louisiana State University Press.  



Official Records of the War of the Rebellion, U.S. Government.  



Rollins, Richard, Ed. (1994).  Black Southerners in Gray:  Essays on Afro-Americans in Confederate Armies.  Rank and File Publications, Redondo Beach, California, 172 pages.  



Thomas, Emory (1971).  “Black Confederates:  Slavery and Wartime” in The Confederacy as a

       Revolutionary Experience.  Englewood Cliffs, NJ:  Prentice-Hall.  Pages 119-132.



Vandiver, Frank E. (1970).  Their Tattered Flags:  The Epic of the Confederacy.  New York:  

    Harper’s Press.



Wesley, C. H. (1927).  Negro Labor in the United States 1850 to 1925:  A Study in American

      Economic History.  New York:  Russell & Russell.  Chapter 4:  The Negro and the Civil War.  



Williams, Scott.  “On Black Confederates,”
Im Charles Wayne Atwell Jr. and Im from
Biloxi, Ms and Im 14 years old,and in case your wondering One of my best friends is black his name is Phillip T Mignot,and The Confederate Flag is not a symbol of hate or Rebellion against the goverment it was a symbol of freedom, The Confederates didnt want to over throw the government or anything like that,they merely wanted to form theyre own government and part peacfully from the Union,for example, President Jefferson Davis said that and I quote,"All we want is to be left alone", there is your prove right there that the Confederates wanted nothing but peace,freedom,and independence.




 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 10:22 PM on May 8, 2003 | IP
StormCrow

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Well for wanting peace, freedom and independance they sure launched a forcefull offensive. Ever heard of the battle of Gettysburg? That would be in Pennsylvania, rather north of the mason-dixon line don't you think? How about the two battles at manassass? In mayrland I believe, again in the union. Three of the bloodiest battles of the civil war all fought on the northern side. If all they wanted was to be left alone, why did they launch an offensive war? And with fewer troops and resources, wouldn't it make more sense to take up a defensive posture?



-------
"The Way of the Warrior is the two-fold path of pen and sword. Even if a man possess no natural inclination he may be a warrior by sticking assidously to both divisions of the Way."

-Shinmen Musashi
 


Posts: 112 | Posted: 07:29 AM on May 13, 2003 | IP
TheRebel

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Well,none of those battles would have happened if Abe Lincoln hadn't invaded in the first place,first and second Manassass comes to mind,and General Lee was trying to end the war that the North started at the Battle of Gettysburg,It would have been smarter to stay on the defensive  had Grant not Captured alot of the few resources that they had,the Confederates needed a quick win or face certain defeat.

(Edited by TheRebel 5/13/2003 at 6:56 PM).

(Edited by TheRebel 5/13/2003 at 7:00 PM).
 


Posts: 18 | Posted: 6:53 PM on May 13, 2003 | IP
StormCrow

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Oh really? how many resources did grant capture? Cause all the union advances were stopped by General Lee, or other Confederate Forces. The north didn't rebel from the federal government if I recall, that's why the south were refered to as Rebels right? I agree that the confederates had to attack or lose (which they did anyways), my point is that the South wasn't in it for peace or independence. If the South had one the war they wouldn't have withdrawn and let the union be, they would have instituted their ideas on Northern Government. However you see it, the rebel flag is just that, a symbol of political rebelion, all idea's of racism aside, it shouldn't be flown over a government building.


-------
"The Way of the Warrior is the two-fold path of pen and sword. Even if a man possess no natural inclination he may be a warrior by sticking assidously to both divisions of the Way."

-Shinmen Musashi
 


Posts: 112 | Posted: 01:40 AM on May 14, 2003 | IP
TheRebel

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First of all yes,General Lee did stop union advances,IN VIRGINIA! General Lee at that time didn't have any command outside of Virginia,and General Grant had capture most or all of western Tennessee where alot of the important factories were,and was pushing down the Mississippi to Vicksburg, and,like the U.S,in the American Revolution,who were also called Rebels and accepted it with pride, when it seperated from Britian it didn't want to take over British government, it LIKE THE CONFEDERATES just wanted to be an indepent nation,wich by the way is perfectly legal under the constitution making the North's war with the South ILLEGAL!,also the South couldn't impose its ideas on the North,because they're a seperate nation,if things such as States Rights,became strong in the north the Yankees would have to do it on their own accord.

Oh yeah,and in case anyone is wondering Im Charles Atwell from Mississppi,I just decided to make my username, TheRebel

(Edited by TheRebel 5/15/2003 at 7:21 PM).

(Edited by TheRebel 5/15/2003 at 7:29 PM).

(Edited by TheRebel 5/15/2003 at 7:42 PM).[b]

(Edited by TheRebel 5/15/2003 at 7:45 PM).

(Edited by TheRebel 5/15/2003 at 7:55 PM).
 


Posts: 18 | Posted: 7:17 PM on May 15, 2003 | IP
TheRebel

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(Edited by TheRebel 5/15/2003 at 7:49 PM).
 


Posts: 18 | Posted: 7:47 PM on May 15, 2003 | IP
TheRebel

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Sorry,messed up trying to get my quote to work.
Quote from TheRebel at 7:47 PM on May 15, 2003 :
"It is good that war is so terrible,should we grow to fond of it" General Robert E. Lee





(Edited by TheRebel 5/15/2003 at 7:49 PM).





(Edited by TheRebel 5/15/2003 at 7:53 PM).

(Edited by TheRebel 5/15/2003 at 7:56 PM).
 


Posts: 18 | Posted: 7:52 PM on May 15, 2003 | IP
StormCrow

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an Illegal war? If the south had won that may very well have been the case. But the civil war is no exception to the rule of "he who wins writes the history books." However I find the comparison of the american revolution to the civil war a little extreme. Firstly the American Revolution was as it's name states a revolution, a new founding of new ideas. Secondly it was justified because of Tyranny. On a government scale, the union was hardly tyrannical. It was a disagreement in the role of the federal government. If you take great pride in the fact that you're southern army lost, well that's fine and entirely your buisness, but AGAIN, it should not be flown over government buildings of any sort.


-------
"The Way of the Warrior is the two-fold path of pen and sword. Even if a man possess no natural inclination he may be a warrior by sticking assidously to both divisions of the Way."

-Shinmen Musashi
 


Posts: 112 | Posted: 04:04 AM on May 16, 2003 | IP
Greatzidane

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I personally have not found anything wrong with the flag. And trust me i have tryied to find info on the internet but have not been succsessfull. My friend believes that every house should fly this flag. And because of what i've found i must agree with her
 


Posts: 5 | Posted: 11:39 AM on May 16, 2003 | IP
southern_beauty1863

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i am a civil war re-enactor for the 12th south carolian/ 4ht michigan. i think that the southern cross should still fly. people that think that it is a symbol of racism should go back and learn your history! our own flag that flies today is the one that is the race symbol. the southern cross never flew over a slave ship. so y'all need to get it right[color=red]
 


Posts: 3 | Posted: 11:48 AM on May 16, 2003 | IP
TheRebel

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You know,I wish I could do the re-enacter thing but I cant drive yet dont know where,or how to get in.
Quote from TheRebel at 9:28 PM on May 16, 2003 :
"It is good that war is so terrible,should we grow to fond of it" General Robert E. Lee


 


Posts: 18 | Posted: 9:30 PM on May 16, 2003 | IP
TheRebel

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Oh yeah,and one more thing to mister StormCrow,yeah, the winners wrote the history books,but they at least shouldn't put lies in it.and about that losing army crap,how many men,and Battles did those idiots,Burnside,Hooker,Pope,and McClellan lose to General Robert E. Lee and the Army of Northern Virginia,you tell me whose the losing army,Mr. StormCrow,and the Civil War was more like a revolution that failed,the Southerners were trying to bring those new ideas from the American Revolution back to life.
Quote from TheRebel at 9:48 PM on May 16, 2003 :
"It is good that war is so terrible,should we grow to fond of it" General Robert E. Lee



(Edited by TheRebel 5/16/2003 at 10:00 PM).

(Edited by TheRebel 5/16/2003 at 10:03 PM).

(Edited by TheRebel 5/16/2003 at 10:08 PM).

(Edited by TheRebel 5/16/2003 at 10:09 PM).
 


Posts: 18 | Posted: 9:48 PM on May 16, 2003 | IP
StormCrow

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Southern Beauty- Well if someone needs a history lesson it's probably you. The southern cross would still be flying if they had won the war. But they didn't. Explain, though, how the modern day stars and stripes is a symbol of racism. Cause actually slave ships didn't have thirteen stripes and 50 stars.


Rebel- you can't even drive yet? Just out of curiousityhow old are you? On to matters: I totally agree with you. I've seen the strategic battle maps of a copule of the major battles like Gettysburg and the two battles of Manassas. At 20 years old, with the resources they had I would feel entirely comfortable commanding any of those  battles. They should have been won by union, but due to poor leadership and strategy were lost. As for the history books, they really don't lie. What I meant when I said that is simply that the union was victorious, and the south surrendered, no matter how many battles they had won. I think your disillusioning yourself if you think the south would have seperated without conquering had they attained victory. I AM telling you who the losing army was the south. I'll tell you that now, tomorrow and forever, cause that's what happened. But I'm really getting tired of this argument and your obtuse repetition. For the last time my point is that it shouldn't be flown over government buildings.


-------
"The Way of the Warrior is the two-fold path of pen and sword. Even if a man possess no natural inclination he may be a warrior by sticking assidously to both divisions of the Way."

-Shinmen Musashi
 


Posts: 112 | Posted: 12:53 AM on May 17, 2003 | IP
TheRebel

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Well,I'm fourteen,and I can't drive yet,but'll be gettin my learner's permit in November,and I know alot about the Civil War,Ive read all about it and seen just about every battle map,it's kinda my thing,you know,my hobbie,I really got into it during the flag debate over here,and my opinion on the Flags over state buildings is that,if the majority of the people want it there than it should be,like in Mississippi,and Visa-Versa,and if anyone doesnt like that,then my advise to you is dont come to Mississippi,cause ya probly wont like it here,and ,mister Scare Crow,your right,unfortunately we lost,well unfortunate for Mississippi anyway,i dont know bout the rest of the nation,anyway,on a different note,I guess you aint such a bad guy,Mister Scare Crow,where ya from anyway?
Quote from TheRebel at 8:17 PM on May 17, 2003 :
"It is good that war is so terrible,should we grow to fond of it" General Robert E. Lee


 


Posts: 18 | Posted: 9:19 PM on May 17, 2003 | IP
TheRebel

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And,another thing,I wish the KKK would quit usin it as their symbol,cause thats not what its about,its about the glory of the South and heritage,you know,that kind of stuff,those stupid racist nazies,the kkk should use somethin else,and stop givin the South a bad name.
Quote from TheRebel at 8:43 PM on May 17, 2003 :
"It is good that war is so terrible,should we grow to fond of it" General Robert E. Lee


 


Posts: 18 | Posted: 9:42 PM on May 17, 2003 | IP
StormCrow

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I'm originally from wisconsin and right now I work for a touring company in Washington DC. We take alot of tours to Gettysburg and I've been to the manassas battlefield as well. I"m not that much of a civil war buff but I know the general premise of the war. The rest of  my knowledge comes from 4 years of history in highschool. I love history but honestly I dislike anything beyond the 1700. Before that everything was so much simpler and so much purer. My point with flying it over government buildings is that it's still a symbol of rebellion against the federal government. For example in germany it's illegal (for anyone) to fly a nazi flag. The memory of the nazi flag reminds (at least a few) people of terrible times. Similiarly, the Rebel flag (at least in my opinion) is a dead symbol, one that had its day in the sun, and is no longer relevant. It, as well as the old union flag, is a reminder of a time when our nation turned against itself. There were more american's killed in the civil war than (if I'm not mistake) every other war America took part in combined. Over 500,000 american troops (north and south) died in that war. Being in the Infantry Reserve, I've developed a stong sense of comraderie for anyone in the armed forces, and I consider it tragic when any American soldier dies. I simply think it would be best if it were dropped. That is of course, my own opinion and the beauty of this fine country is that we're allowed to disagree and see things from a different point of view.


-------
"The Way of the Warrior is the two-fold path of pen and sword. Even if a man possess no natural inclination he may be a warrior by sticking assidously to both divisions of the Way."

-Shinmen Musashi
 


Posts: 112 | Posted: 12:31 AM on May 18, 2003 | IP
southern_beauty1863

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i totally agree with "the rebel". the war was much like that of the american revolution. the "civil war" was truely called The War For Southern Independence. ya thats right. the southern cross was made because of confusion on the battlefield. the stars and bars looked too much like the stars and stripes. when the wind didnt blow you could not tell the flags apart. general beaurgard had the idea to make a flag that would show the difference between the two armies. therefore the southern cross was adopted. oh and about the whole slave thing. the true history of it all-- the stars and stripes flew over slave ships for almost 90 years. the north and slaves. massachusetts was one of the first states to make slavery legal. is mass. in the south? let me think about that one. NO!! the south had every right to leave the union. even today we could if we did believe in states rights. so the south was right in what they did. the north was wrong to start the war. the south did not want to fight. so i think that people should go back and learn the history. i am 16 years old and have studied this since i was 4. i thik that i have a clue as to what i am talking about.
 


Posts: 3 | Posted: 11:46 AM on May 19, 2003 | IP
StormCrow

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You've studied the civil war since you were 4 huh? I wonder why I even argue with you after such a moronic statement. But I'll once again begin disecting your arguments.

The flag's as a banner thing. Was hardly an original southern idea. It's only been done since the dawn of large scale combat. People all around the world, from the Japanese to the Native Americans, The Roman Legions, The Greek City States, etc, etc. They all used identifying banners. Also, let's take another look at the "southern cross" hmmm....where have I seen that before...oh shit, I remember. the british flag. Looks like there's another unoriginal idea.

Massachusets may have been the first state in the US to legalize slavery. But it was here long before that and been a world idea since pretty much the dawn of civilization. So in the wanning periods of the civil war, who took the side of keeping slavery? Was it the union? Oh no, it was the confederacy.

I agree the south did have every right to try and seperate from the union. Which gave the union the right to declare war on it. That's the beauty of imperialistic expansion. The winner is just that, the winner. And you certainly could try to leave the union again if you wanted. But I doubt anyone wants that anymore, unless maybe their a 16 year old girl whos still bitter about things that happened more than a century ago. Our country is united, I know that's hard for rebellious teenagers to accept, but we actually accomplish more this way. If you disagree, well that's your business, tell it to the 500,000 dead men, that died at the hands of their brothers because of your desire to be seperatists.


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"The Way of the Warrior is the two-fold path of pen and sword. Even if a man possess no natural inclination he may be a warrior by sticking assidously to both divisions of the Way."

-Shinmen Musashi
 


Posts: 112 | Posted: 5:16 PM on May 19, 2003 | IP
southern_beauty1863

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i dont have a problem with anybody. i just wanted to say that we are not told about the real truth in our schools. they leave out a lot of things that we should know. i dont see how it was stupid fo me to say that i have been learning about this since the age of 4 b/c i have. i am not mad about the south losing the war. i just think that people need to learn some things before they open their mouths
 


Posts: 3 | Posted: 9:55 PM on May 19, 2003 | IP
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90% of kids can't even read at the age of four let a lone bend their mind to study and understanding. I could tell you I "studied" dinosaurs and sharks at the age of four, but that would be a stupid comment, because, my "study" was little more than memorizing names and pictures. I didn't learn shit about them. It's become entirely apparent what truth you think should be told. I'm sure if it was your class you'd teach the students how the union and federalized governement is wrong, and how we should have left our nation divided. I agree I think people need to learn things in life before they open their mouths. I think you should heed your own advice. Like a good percentage of america you don't look beyond your front porch at the big picture. Work on broadening your view and then take a look at some of your previous comments.


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"The Way of the Warrior is the two-fold path of pen and sword. Even if a man possess no natural inclination he may be a warrior by sticking assidously to both divisions of the Way."

-Shinmen Musashi
 


Posts: 112 | Posted: 4:12 PM on May 20, 2003 | IP
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Hey stormcrow how about you lay off of southern_beauty. All right just because you couldn't read at four doesn't mean she couldn't. As for me i also enjoy the civil war reancaments so lay off.
 


Posts: 5 | Posted: 11:38 AM on May 21, 2003 | IP
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Hey stormcrow how about you lay off of southern_beauty. All right just because you couldn't read at four doesn't mean she couldn't. As for me i also enjoy the civil war reancaments so lay off.

Sure no problem greatzidane, I'll immediately decist my words of truth and common sense. You may very well enjoy reinactments. I think they're wonderful to. But par to the course, when i make a good point it's "oh you can't say that...cause, cause, I don't like it."
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 8:35 PM on May 24, 2003 | IP
TheRebel

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You know, I used to come here alot,but now its just Bullshit,seriously,now your just insulting eachother,whats the point of that
Quote from TheRebel at 12:24 PM on May 27, 2003 :
"It is good that war is so terrible,should we grow to fond of it" General Robert E. Lee


 


Posts: 18 | Posted: 1:25 PM on May 27, 2003 | IP
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I'm sorry rebel we'll get back on topic. The flag does not stand for slavery but i believe that at one time it was and that is why it is still a topic.
 


Posts: 5 | Posted: 10:54 AM on May 28, 2003 | IP
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TheRebel, in debate one issue that comes up (as it does in most trials and political campaigns) is the credability of who's saying it. If someone comes up with a rediculous statement like "I've been studying blah blah blah since I was four," it is a matter of credabiltiy. Furthermore, my point about the Confederate flag (for the millionth time) is that it shouldn't be flown, in any form, above a government building. You can fly it over your house, you can paint the confederate flag on your car, you can wipe your ass with the confederate flag, it's your personal freedom of speech. But it DOESN'T belong over a government building. Do we fly mexican flags over the state of texas, new mexico or arizona? They were all once part of mexico. Do we fly the french flag  (God forbid) over Louisianna? Do we fly the british flag over Massachusets or Delaware or Virginia? NO!!! You're so adament about how the south was a seperate nation, fine, so why would we hang a FOREIGN FLAG over a UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT BUILDING?


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"The Way of the Warrior is the two-fold path of pen and sword. Even if a man possess no natural inclination he may be a warrior by sticking assidously to both divisions of the Way."

-Shinmen Musashi
 


Posts: 112 | Posted: 9:42 PM on May 28, 2003 | IP
TheRebel

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They dont fly a Mexican flag in New Mexico,or Arizona,because most of the people dont want it there,same for Massachuessetts(sorry that one's hard to spell),or Louisianna,because they dont want it there,in Mississippi,or Georgia,they do want the Confederate flag there,so they should have it,For the Millionth time that is my point.Quote from TheRebel at 11:44 AM on May 28, 2003 :
"It is good that war is so terrible,should we grow to fond of it" General Robert E. Lee



(Edited by TheRebel 5/29/2003 at 12:46 PM).
 


Posts: 18 | Posted: 12:45 PM on May 29, 2003 | IP
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I understand you want it, but understand why you shouldn't have it. If you can't simply accept the fact that they won't fly a flag of rebellion over a government building then you simply lack understanding.

they do want the Confederate flag there,so they should have it,

I can picture this being said by a four year old who didn't get his "candy". If the majority of people got together to round up and kill all the Muslims, would that be ok? But they wanted to do it so they should do it. Or perhaps in a less extreme example, if the state of California decided they wanted to have a scythe and hammer (the emblem of the former soviet union) in the upper right hand corner of their flag, should they be able to? Feel free to rebuddle, but I'm not going to argue this anymore. You're obviously either too obtuse to see that your actions are unacceptable, or your ignorant. I'd like to hope it's the former. The confederate flag shouldn't be flown over a governement building, because it's WRONG. No other foreign nation in history has had a flag flown above a Untied States Government building, neither should the vanquished Confederacy.


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"The Way of the Warrior is the two-fold path of pen and sword. Even if a man possess no natural inclination he may be a warrior by sticking assidously to both divisions of the Way."

-Shinmen Musashi
 


Posts: 112 | Posted: 11:22 AM on May 31, 2003 | IP
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If the majority of people got together to round up and kill all the Muslims, would that be ok?

That would infringe on rights granted by the Constitution.
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 1:18 PM on May 31, 2003 | IP
TheRebel

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I think the Musilum thing was a little extreme,but still,we're not talkin about the United States Captiol building,just the state flag,if thats all,I dont see why everyone makes such a fuss over it,I mean you dont live in mine or anyone else's state that wants it so why do you care,Mister StormCrow
besides,I seriously dout anyone wants a Hammer and Sythe on their state flag.

(Edited by TheRebel 5/31/2003 at 11:43 PM).
 


Posts: 18 | Posted: 11:41 PM on May 31, 2003 | IP
TheRebel

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I think the Musilum thing was a little extreme,but still,we're not talkin about the United States Captiol building,just the state flag,if thats all,I dont see why everyone makes such a fuss over it,I mean you dont live in mine or anyone else's state that wants it so why do you care,Mister StormCrow
besides,I seriously dout anyone wants a Hammer and Sythe on their state flag.
Quote from TheRebel at 11:41 PM on May 31, 2003:"It is good that war is so terrible,should we grow too fond of it"General Robert E. Lee




 


Posts: 18 | Posted: 11:46 PM on May 31, 2003 | IP
TheRebel

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I wonder how that happened,it posted twice,sorry
 


Posts: 18 | Posted: 11:48 PM on May 31, 2003 | IP
TheRebel

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And on top of that,I dont see how its any of your buisness,or the rest of the nation's for that matter,whats in the Damn state flag,you dont live here,or anywhere else where they want the emblem,and ya know what,I really couldn't care less if California had a hammer and sythe in their state flag,its not mine,I dont live in California,now if they wanted somethin like that in Mississippi,I would have somethin to say,but they dont.In my opinion,the issue is a state matter,and doesnt concern,the rest of the nation,so Y'all butt out of our buisness.

(Edited by TheRebel 6/1/2003 at 9:05 PM).
 


Posts: 18 | Posted: 11:58 PM on May 31, 2003 | IP
TheRebel

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Let this be a message,to the rest of the nation on behalf of the South in general.
If it {Declaration of Independence} justifies the secession from the
British empire of 3,000,000 of colonists in 1776, we do not see why it would not justify the
secession of 5,000,000 of Southrons from the Federal Union in 1861. If we
are mistaken on this point, why does not some one attempt to show wherein why?
--New York Tribune, December 17, 1860

"Then call us Rebels, if you will,
We glory in the name,
For bending under unjust laws,
And swearing faith to an unjust cause,
We count as greater shame."


(Edited by TheRebel 6/9/2003 at 1:45 PM).
 


Posts: 18 | Posted: 1:43 PM on June 9, 2003 | IP
TheRebel

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Let this be a message,to the rest of the nation on behalf of the South in general.

If it {Declaration of Independence} justifies the secession from the
British empire of 3,000,000 of colonists in 1776, we do not see why it would not justify the secession of 5,000,000 of Southrons from the Federal Union in 1861. If we
are mistaken on this point, why does not some one attempt to show wherein why?
--New York Tribune, December 17, 1860

"Then call us Rebels, if you will,
We glory in the name,
For bending under unjust laws,
And swearing faith to an unjust cause,
We count as greater shame." Charles Atwell




(Edited by TheRebel 6/9/2003 at 1:49 PM).
 


Posts: 18 | Posted: 1:48 PM on June 9, 2003 | IP
jared00004

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what the heck is wrong with you people?  How is the Battle Flag of Northern Virgina a symbol of slavery?  Its stands for the people under Lee's command and is also why it is the famous confederate battle flag.  The confederate flag that y'all are arguing over wasn't flown over the slave ships.  And how can you lie to yourself, slavery was one but the smallest reason for the civil war.  For one the war was over union preservation and states' rights.  Also the south seceeded from the union because for one Lincoln put on them the unfair morral tarrif (the highest in U.S history) which shoot up southern taxes from 20% to 47% which caused many southerns to go broke.  Also the south was mad that Lincoln could win the presidency withont ONE single southern electoral vote!!! And for the record i'm from Georgia where there is a massive state wide debate on weather to keep the flag or not.  The old governor changed it to this ugly blue flag so now many people want the old battle flag symboled flag back.  So Barnes (the old governor) got booted out the next election and was replaced by Perdue.  Perdue promised the citizens of Georgia a vote on the flag and got it but the confederate flag won't be on there due to a mostly black Georgia senate.  Perdue responded by saying ''If they thought the Pre-Barnes flag was actully going to lose they would have put it on the ballot.''  Its heritage and history and no black person can honestly tell me that flag ''offends'' them.


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Jared
 


Posts: 31 | Posted: 03:59 AM on June 20, 2003 | IP
TheRebel

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jared00004,I totally agree with you, I've been tryin to tell these people that,this hole time,I guess they're obviously either too obtuse to see that they're wrong or unacceptable, or they're ignorant.and for the record I'm from Mississippi and I'm fourteen,and we got to keep our flag,I think in Georgia they should vote on the subject like we did.
Quote from TheRebel at 3:49 PM on June 23, 2003:"It is good that war is so terrible,should we grow too fond of it"General Robert E. Lee


(Edited by TheRebel 6/23/2003 at 4:53 PM).
 


Posts: 18 | Posted: 4:50 PM on June 23, 2003 | IP
jared00004

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StormCrow after reading you arguments you have to be the biggest idiot in here.  I thought AlexTheGreat was but you over took even him with IGNORENCE and ever STUPIDITY after therebel explained it to you.  Let me turn the major argument of these northern trash against them, y'all always say ''where in the U.S consistution does it give the right to succeed''?  WHERE DOES IT SAY YOU CAN'T!!??  It was our God given right to succeed and we did and were a country, until the industrial north said ''hey we can't survive without the south but they can survive without us'' and waged war.  And as for the war thing, yes the north won the war and thats about it, we won more battles, killed more norths, and all the time showed them up.  Given our resources we should have lost after 6 months but the north(who sucks) took 4 years because for one they suck and two they had not the will to win.  The south fought because they wanted to, the north did because they were told to.  Well i'm done and stormcrow get your facts straight, the war ended with 620,000 deaths, even I memorized that much dumba**.


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Jared
 


Posts: 31 | Posted: 10:21 AM on June 24, 2003 | IP
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I believe that the schools are the racist ones most of all. The school doesn't let the "inmates" wear battle flags but they let others wear nazi apparrell around their necks and on their belt buckles as long as they don't wear a shirt. Now in most schools you'll find that no matter what type of apparell it is from boxers to a shirt with any confederate apparell on it you will be kicked out of that school/suspended for 2-5 days. This is bull and no one should stand for it. As a pro 1st. amendment I believe any one should be alowed to wear what the hell they want when it comes to this matter where ever they want to. It is in the constitution and everyone is just taking it away from us.

 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 10:41 PM on June 29, 2003 | IP
TheRebel

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yeah,that really does suck,I'm glad I'm goin to highschool this year,cause Id be expelled from Middle Schoo,B/C you cant wear shirts wit the Rebel Flag on'em,and I just wouldnt stand for that,but at D'Iberville,where I'm goin,as far as I know we're allowed and I plan to wear it as often as possible.
Quote from TheRebel at 3:15 PM on June 30, 2003:"It is good that war is so terrible,should we grow too fond of it"General Robert E. Lee

 


Posts: 18 | Posted: 4:17 PM on June 30, 2003 | IP
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Quote from StormCrow at 07:29 AM on May 13, 2003 :
Well for wanting peace, freedom and independance they sure launched a forcefull offensive. Ever heard of the battle of Gettysburg? That would be in Pennsylvania, rather north of the mason-dixon line don't you think? How about the two battles at manassass? In mayrland I believe, again in the union. Three of the bloodiest battles of the civil war all fought on the northern side. If all they wanted was to be left alone, why did they launch an offensive war? And with fewer troops and resources, wouldn't it make more sense to take up a defensive posture?


Gettysburg, PA yes nothern soil.
Manassas is in Virginia Southern soil.
Maryland was neutral.

Slavery did not become an issue untill after the Battle of Antietam in Sept. of 1862.  Abraham Lincoln used the so called victory (although it was a tatical victory for the south) as a push for his emancipation proclamation.  This was purely a political move, not a personal one.

Fact: Jefferson Davis, the president of the confederacy, had a black foster child.

Fact: Slaves were sold to the U.S., under the the American flag, by the African tribes Kings.  So I guess the flags of those African countries should be considered racist.

Famous confederate Generals who spoke out against slavery included "Stonewall" Jackson, who was a deeply religious man who taught the negros about god and christianity, and helped them set up churches.  And General Robert E. Lee, who abhored slavery in every form.

There was a comment about malcomX hating whites.  It is true that in the begining of his time with the Nation of Islam he did speak against the "white devil."  However, when he made a trip to Mecca (the holy land) he saw what he called a "rainbow of color" in the muslim religion.  Whites, blacks, asian, hispanic, all worshiping together.  He came back to american and spoke out against the Nation of Islam, and converted to Sunni.  Which is why he was killed.

Get this, me, a white guy from the north, who believes that the Confederate flag stands for heritage not hate, defending MalcomX.





 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 01:17 AM on August 6, 2003 | IP
NorthernRebel

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The above post was made by me. /\
                                                      |
 


Posts: 1 | Posted: 01:24 AM on August 6, 2003 | IP
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IMO, the only reason people want to sport the stars and bars is because of the conflict of the rural culture particularly in the south with the urban cultures of the west and east coast.  Sectionalism as it was called then exist today.  Look at the last presidential election, there is a distinct cultural difference between those regions.  I think the confed flag represents this sectionalism, and forget the blah blah blah about the Civil War, Sectionalism is the reason people want to show the flag.  It is the south's way of thumbing her nose at the northeast or west coast.  This is what it means to the people who support the flag.  

To those who opppose it, it represents a time of slavery.  But deer lord people's ancestors went through slavery, is it that hard not to sport the confed flag, i mean just out of respect of what happend.  Is it that critical, i mean just sport the regular stars and stripes and it encapsulates America.  

But like I said before for the supporters it has little to do with the actual meaning of the Civil War, it is more of a way of distinguishing themselves from the rest of America which is sectionalism.
 


Posts: 1 | Posted: 5:13 PM on August 7, 2003 | IP
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JradMIT,your a DUMBASS,and you obvioulsly dont live in The South,because then you'd know the true meaning behind the flag,it stands for freedom,freedom for The South,and all occupied nations today,yes i said occupied nations,today the CSA is an occupied nation,we seceded from the union,and it has never lawfully been undone,and like I said before,it is a state matter and should be left to the states,no one has the right to interfere with what goes on inside a state's borders,and thats the way it should be,so y'all butt out of our buisness!
 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 3:34 PM on August 8, 2003 | IP
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I dont know why it doesnt say my username,but I made the post above,I'm TheRebel


Quote from TheRebel at 2:36 PM on August 8, 2003:"It is good that war is so terrible,should we grow too fond of it"General Robert E. Lee

 


Posts: 0 | Posted: 3:37 PM on August 8, 2003 | IP
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Quote from jared00004 at 10:21 AM on June 24, 2003 :
StormCrow after reading you arguments you have to be the biggest idiot in here.  I thought AlexTheGreat was but you over took even him with IGNORENCE and ever STUPIDITY after therebel explained it to you.  Let me turn the major argument of these northern trash against them, y'all always say ''where in the U.S consistution does it give the right to succeed''?  WHERE DOES IT SAY YOU CAN'T!!??  It was our God given right to succeed and we did and were a country, until the industrial north said ''hey we can't survive without the south but they can survive without us'' and waged war.  And as for the war thing, yes the north won the war and thats about it, we won more battles, killed more norths, and all the time showed them up.  Given our resources we should have lost after 6 months but the north(who sucks) took 4 years because for one they suck and two they had not the will to win.  The south fought because they wanted to, the north did because they were told to.  Well i'm done and stormcrow get your facts straight, the war ended with 620,000 deaths, even I memorized that much dumba**.


first of all, the north didn't win because they suck?  what a brilliantly rendered argument, obvisouly supported by hard facts.  and obviously the souther states couldn't survive because they didn't.  you can whine all you want about how you "could've survived" but you didn't.  and the reason you shouldn't be allowed to use the confederate flag as or in a state flag, is because it is percieved as a symbol of racism.  notice, i said "percieved." personally, i think it is, but that doesn't matter.   ask most people what the civil war was fought over and they'll say slavery.  ask them which side supported slavery they'll say the south.  that flag is percieved as racist.  but lets drop that argument, b/c we could argue it all day and no one would ever win.  the confederate flag is a symbol of REBELLION.  and you want to know why your rebellion is considered evil and the american revolution isnt.  b/c america won.  its that simple.  america should have lost the war in months, but we not only survived, we became one of the most powerful nations on earth.  what happened to the south again?  the values championed by the south, most notably slavery, are now considered wrong, and if you use this symbol that represents the confederacy, you're basically picking up those same causes.  and you want to know why the american flag isnt a symbol of hate and racism?  because look at everything else that was done under the american flag.  it could just as easily be said to represent walking on the moon.  the confederate flag, on the other hand, only showed up in one place - the confederacy, and i already explained what many people think about that.


 


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